Why do we have Poverty in America

SpaceNut · 2018-01-30 22:02:25

In South Texas, tens of thousands live in border enclaves without water, power or certainty of their future

A ragged American flag flutters outside Rosa Castro’s trailer near the U.S.-Mexico border. She has no electricity, no running water, and little hope that she ever will.
Castro is one of about 500,000 people residing in hundreds of unincorporated towns in south Texas, places with quirky names such as Little Mexico, Radar Base, Betty Acres and Mike’s that were created when developers carved up ranchland that was unprepared for human habitation and sold the parcels at bargain prices, mostly to low-income immigrants and Mexican Americans.
Buyers plunked down double-wide trailers or wood-and-cinder-block houses and waited for the paved roads, electricity, and water and sewer systems to arrive.
For thousands of people, they never did.
The Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas says the enclaves, known in Spanish as colonias, represent one of the largest concentrations of poverty in the United States. Texas outlawed their creation and expansion in 1989. The state and federal government have spent hundreds of millions of dollars to improve some of the outposts, but have done little in others, for reasons that include the high costs and questions about who owns which land.
About 330 colonias — and nearly 38,000 people — are stuck in the most extreme conditions, without clean running water, sewers, or even clear boundaries needed to develop the land, according to the state. Another 115,000 people live in enclaves without paved roads, drainage or solid-waste disposal.
The rightful homeowners in colonias are often unclear because many paid for their land in cash and did not have the land formally mapped out and deeded with the county government. Castro, who cannot prove they own their land, electricity was not an option.

So no help to the poor that can not show on paper that they own the land.

Terraformer · 2018-01-31 11:39:30

Does America not have adverse possession? If they've lived there for a certain length of time, can't they apply for deeds?

kbd512 · 2018-01-31 11:56:25

Terraformer,

The people living on that land can still apply for deeds to the real estate they own. I believe sworn affidavits must be signed, but I don't see why they shouldn't do that. Poverty and ignorance go hand-in-hand. Someone needs to go there and educate those people about what the laws are so some unscrupulous person or entity, like a bank, is not able to steal their land from them. Deeds and titles get lost or destroyed all the time. This would hardly be the first instance where this has happened.

SpaceNut · 2018-01-31 18:52:15

Yes squatters rights do exist but not in every state and have specific activity to be had to prove that you should own the property. There are also a number of different deeds to look for each with different rights and conditions of ownership. Then again the tribes of America did not believe that they had rights to own mother earth and that they were just care givers to it. Is this the case for the colonias' people.

Border Fence Must Skirt Objections From Arizona Tribes 75 miles Tohono O’odham Indian territory, which means “desert people,”

In 1854, under Mexican President Antonio López de Santa Anna and President Franklin Pierce, the U.S. paid Mexico $10 million for 29,670 square miles of land.
The Gadsden Purchase agreement sketched a new border that split the tribe's land, leaving part in the U.S. and part in Mexico.
Mexico does not recognize the sovereignty of indigenous land. Tohono O’odham in Mexico were still accounted for when the tribe became federally recognized in the United States and ratified a constitution that defines tribal membership based on blood, not country of origin.

A four-foot-high fence with openings for cattle stretches along the Mexican border on the Tohono O’odham Indian Nation near Tucson

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 … zona-tribe

Members of one Native American tribe whose scattered settlements stud the rocky highlands of southern California and northwest Mexico, saw the buildup coming years ago as Tribe Does the Right Thing as Border Fence Rises

Expecting the wall to come crashing down on their community, the tribes have deepened ties, from cultural exchanges to visa regimens that ensure families can easily cross the U.S.-Mexico divide.
For centuries the Kumeyaay thrived as farmers and hunter gatherers in the borderlands, where there are now 13 Kumeyaay reservations, or "bands," dispersed across the rugged highland corner of San Diego County and four further settlements in Baja California, Mexico.

IanM · 2018-01-31 20:06:07

Terraformer wrote:

Does America not have adverse possession? If they've lived there for a certain length of time, can't they apply for deeds?

I believe that one of the requirements of adverse possession is that the true owners should be able to know about the occupancy and be proven to have done nothing about it, which isn't particularly likely.

Terraformer · 2018-02-01 03:59:44

You don't have to prove the true owners knew, at least not in the UK, as long as it would have been obvious if they'd checked - that is, your occupancy was out in the open where anyone can see it. I don't know how land registry works in the US.

elderflower · 2018-02-01 05:24:47

I infer from the statements emanating from the US, on this site, that they don't have a Land Registry as we have in the UK.

SpaceNut · 2018-02-10 11:26:38

kbd512 wrote:

SpaceNut,
Maybe you believe everything that a company does for its employees is some sort of PR stunt, but my wife actually received a bonus this year, so I certainly don't. I would call that bitterness or resentment, but for what, specifically, I don't understand. There are lots of people in this country who make more money than we do / have / ever will, but I don't resent them one bit.
As far as Wal-Mart is concerned, their employees will now make their money tax free and let's do a little math while we're at it.
$11/hr * 40hrs = $440/wk
$440/wk * 50wks/yr = $22,000/yr
$10/hr * 40hrs = $400/wk
$400/wk * 50wks/yr = $20,000/yr
If I was only making $20K to begin with and paying income taxes on top of that, even if it wasn't much, it sure would be nice to get an extra $2K/yr and not pay any taxes on it. Maybe you can work those numbers, or maybe not, but the reason I've been successful at what I do is that I can and do. I'd take an extra $2K per year any day of the week, say thank you, and never think twice about it or complain that I didn't get more. That sort of money would've been enough for me to pay at least 4 months of rent when I was still in college.
After a brief series of manual labor jobs, I started out making $27K after I left the Navy when I was still in college and my salary increase and bonus ($512 and some change after taxes) bumped that up to about $29K during my second year with the company. It wasn't much, but every little bit helped, and I was paying taxes on what I did make. There's never been a year in my entire life when I didn't pay taxes. Anyway, I went from making minimum wage in the Navy to well over $100K/yr in about ten years and my wife did the exact same thing. There's nothing terribly special about us, either.

LIke you I started working picking/ raking low bush blueberries at 50 cents a bussel, followed by pumping gas evenings at $3 hr, followed by full time farmers wages of $2.75 hr in a resturant, with full time computer manufacturing at $5.90 hr in the 80's.....

The wages are below poverty levels that you meantioned and they only provide living conditions for paying for home/ housing, heating / electricity, food/ water and next to nothing else with that level of income...

Opinions | The Trump administration is abandoning McDonald's workers — and everyone else

For the past three years, the federal government has painstakingly built a case against the world’s second-largest private employer, McDonald’s, charging the company with illegally harassing and terminating employees who have gone on strike with the “Fight for $15″ campaign.
There have been over 150 days of trial and hundreds of exhibits entered into the record. And though McDonald’s has aggressively fought to slow down the trial, attorneys at the National Labor Relations Board have continued to press the case.

The land of the part time wage earner.....

martienne · 2018-02-10 12:05:52

You have poverty because you have extremely rich people.
Unfair division of wealth.
Capitalism.
Obviously the resources and level of development in America is such that everybody could live comfortable if the wealth was equally distributed and the means of production were communally owned. With the more capable people as managers, not owners.

Void · 2018-02-10 12:32:36

martienne

I hesitate to join this conversation. However I would caution you to try to understand peoples who live in a different reality. I have admiration for the accomplishments of your people, but as George Friedman said (Approximately), "What would the world be like if the Europeans had had nuclear weapons in WWII". He also indicated that although Americans (Whatever that is), and Soviets/Russians have had nuclear weapons, and the Americans have been labeled as "Cowboys", have had nuclear weapons for many years we still have not blown up the world. It is possible that we are not as stupid and silly as has been proposed.

We have our reasons for what we do. Much of the less lovely parts of it is to protect "Civilization?" from the V.V.'s

I actually hate the word "Civilization". Civilization is actually organized cruelty.

Now the words Good and Evil. Seems that that is a good path? Not really. Mans accuser is happy to point out the flaws of the human race, to indicate when we are actually evil. But do you really want to be at the mercy of Mans Accuser?

Elon Musk allows himself to endure suffering continually for the love of a project, the desire to protect the human race. Yes he is rich, but he apparently does it for a purpose. To get us protected from the V.V.'s

Elon Musk uses one bed at a time. Even though he is rich, he does not consume more than one bed at a time.

It is possible that he wastes food. But the cost of any estimated food wastage is far less than the contribution to human happiness that he may make.

So, those are two consumption issues, a place to sleep, and food to eat, that must be high priorities for the "Poor". Well, he really doesn't cost that much. Yes he has dollar amounts and control of vast structure, but he is apparently one of the most productive stewart's the structure. I would not even consider removing him, even if I had such a power.

Now, the V.V.'s.

Verbal and Violent.

The violence breaks down into two sub categories:
1) Cruelty
2) The use of weapons

We have been lead to believe that being a VV is wonderful. They will surely tell you that they are the most wonderful people ever.

Their verbal skills are often used to indicate the evil nature of their neighbors beside them (Northern Europe, Asia) or their evil neighbors below them (Southern Europe, Africa). Wonderful. God loves you and nobody else? Nice what a deal. So, you get to just be a jerk, cause your people said that God said that.

We are dealing with a planet full of retard imbecile VV's who keep using their verbal skills to justify their jealous motives, working toward the option of rape.

Can you now understand why we do what we do?

Last edited by Void (2018-02-10 12:51:25)

Terraformer · 2018-02-10 17:19:01

America needs to strike down zoning. Build traditional cities, connected by rail, and housing and transportation costs will plummet.

Also, Americans need to relearn the virtue of restraint. There is no valid reason for consumer debt to be so high, not with the median income what it is.

Void · 2018-02-10 17:29:58

Terraformer said:
Quote:

America needs to strike down zoning. Build traditional cities, connected by rail, and housing and transportation costs will plummet.
Also, Americans need to relearn the virtue of restraint. There is no valid reason for consumer debt to be so high, not with the median income what it is.

We are likely to have electric self driving cars soon. Our population density is lower than that of Europe. Rails for human transport do not make as much sense for us as it might for other places.

As for consumer debt. I have a credit card I pay off every month without fail. I have no other debts. What the others do is by their consent. But you are right they should do less of it.

Curious, why is Zoning a problem? What do you say it is?

Last edited by Void (2018-02-10 17:31:39)

Terraformer · 2018-02-11 03:42:46

It drives up the cost of housing and mandates sprawl. American cities are spread out by government fiat, not because it's how they naturally form. Take away minimum lot sizes, use restrictions, bans on certain types of housing etc, and you'll get a different urban form. With surburban sprawl, though, people need to drive to get anywhere, which costs a lot more money, disparately impacts the poorest, reduces independence, and most importantly, leaves people and communities fragile. Here in England, if the car breaks down we can get around via bus or train, and walk to the shops. That's resilient. If the infrastructure or supply chains are disrupted, there are alternative options available. I don't think American suburbia offers that...

Void · 2018-02-11 08:12:05

Two issues.

#1 I would like to know how the Canadians do things relative to the U.K. vs the USA. Do we have a Canadian here?

#2 When self driving cars show up, (Hard to believe), as a driver does not have to be paid, then I would expect that the fee for a ride would be less than that for a Taxi.

SpaceNut · 2018-02-11 12:44:28

Spreading out the population creates ownership of the land and structures that we live in, lessens racisms, crime, closing up into high rises creates slumb lords, gangs & crime, ethnic issues of race.....The other issues is the road ways do not support volume of vehicles and these when butted up against property that is occupied makes for no ability to expand them and a crumbling infrastructure.

Terraformer · 2018-02-11 17:07:31

Why do you think the only alternatives to quarter-acre lots are high rises?

RobertDyck · 2018-02-11 17:33:17

Terraformer wrote:

Why do you think the only alternatives to quarter-acre lots are high rises?

My house was built in 1907. The property is 25 feet wide by 107 feet deep. There's a back lane. My house is small; I measured the outside of the stucco, not counting the archway over the walkway beside the house, not counting the moulding around the front door, and not counting the chimney. It's 384 square feet per floor. It's called 1 3/4 story; the upper floor ceiling is the under side of the roof. Walls are vertical for the lower 5 feet, then 45° slope. However, the first floor has 9 foot ceilings, the house is so old that when it was built 2x4 lumber was actually 2"x4", so it's solidly built. And walls are plaster/lathe with 2" thick real plaster. Part basement, it has an old coal chute, the outside of the chute door is covered over with plaster. The concrete wall of the coal bin has been broken open, the hot water tank is there. The old brick chimney is still in the attic, the natural gas furnace has a chimney on the outside of the house, covered in stucco. The part basement is large enough for the furnace, water heater, full size washer and dryer, and you can turn around. That's about it. There's a dirt floor crawl space under the rest of the house. There's a small single car garage, 10 feet by 20 feet, plus a gravel parking spot beside the garage. Ground floor is a living room, galley kitchen with octagonal table and 4 chairs, and a stairway. Upper floor is a normal size bedroom, small bedroom, bathroom with toilet, vanity, and bathtub with glass shower doors. Shower enclosure around the tub is with flat plastic panels, sealed with caulking. Has to be because the 45° ceiling is over the tub, the plastic panels go up that angled wall/ceiling. The back bedroom is just the right size for a home office: double pedestal desk, bookcase, printer stand. At one point I had someone staying with me, he had a king size bed. With the bed pushed into the corner, the closet door would hit the bed on the other side. There are built-in drawers beside the closet, but neither the drawers nor closet could be opened with a king size bed in there. The bathroom looks like a retrofit; if you read a history of this part of the city, there was no sewer system until just after World War 1. Once when I was gardening beside the garage at the fence, I found a row of bricks under the soil. It looked like a buried brick wall. Then I realized. Before World War 1, houses in this area would have had an outhouse. I am not digging there! Ok, it's roughly a century since the sewer system was installed, so it would have decayed to soil by now, but still! I'm not digging there.

So there. Houses do not require a quarter-acre lot.

Last edited by RobertDyck (2018-02-11 19:37:01)

RobertDyck · 2018-02-11 18:04:40

Void wrote:

#1 I would like to know how the Canadians do things relative to the U.K. vs the USA. Do we have a Canadian here?

What would you like to know?

Here are a couple alternatives. One neighbourhood in Winnipeg is Wildwood Park. Built in 1946-'47, used to be spelled "Wildewood". Built with a Radburn design, which means separating different modes of transport. It looks like you're living in a park. It consists of bays; where the street would normally go there's park. There's still land allocated, but it has grass and trees. There's a single walkway that looks like a sidewalk, but it isn't beside anything. The walkway goes down the centre of where the street would go. So paved walks from homes have to extend that much farther to reach the walkway. The central walkway is double, with grass and trees between. At the intersection of walkways, there's a feature: one has a children's play structure, one has picnic tables and BBQ, etc. The city's most expensive and exclusive private school is at one end, public schools at the other end (elementary, junior high, high school). All schools are walking distance. Only 4 blocks the long way from Pembina Highway, the major business thoroughfare for that end of the city. More of a major road than a modern highway; it has 3 vehicle lanes in each direction, central median with turning lanes, plus bus / bicycle lane and sidewalk. There's a "strip" shopping mall just 10 minute drive away.

There is a back lane to each house, but it's a single lane. Only in this neighbourhood, back lanes have one-way signs. Front yards don't have a fence, but back yards have 6-foot fence right up to the back lane.

In this image, "SJR" means Saint John's Ravenscourt school. Looks like something from Harry Potter.

Last edited by RobertDyck (2018-02-11 18:06:39)

SpaceNut · 2018-02-11 18:12:11

Sounds like the slightly larger than a tiny home construction just older for sure. I still have my 3 disabled adult children and wife so I need quite a bit more space to be my home.

I feel lucky to live on 1 1/3 acreas on a sloping area of the ridges that surround the town. Its just a plain raised ranch split level with the basement being made out of cinder blocks sort of like most prefabs were to make use of cheap building methods and rises mostly out of the ground so the walls are cold in the winter. The house that sets on top of it is 22 by 42 and follows the same cheap materials construction methods of the time during the 60's. My neighbors that live around me either have the same or larger pieces of property.

I see from the second post that you are showing how zoning laws work best with planned construction.....

RobertDyck · 2018-02-11 18:49:19

The reason I mention Wildwood, is an alternative I came up with in the mid-1980s. A new neighbourhood designed with rail taxi. This new neighbourhood would be built similar to Wildwood, but without the back lane. Well, there would be a back lane, but personal cars prohibited. A subway built underground, beneath the back lane. Each house would a have an underground rail station, about the size of a single-car garage, under their back yard. This underground "garage" would be connected to the basement. The subway would be sized for rail cars about the same size as a modern passenger car. The rail cars driven by computer, so no driver. Back then I thought you could call a rail taxi by calling a dispatch computer on your phone, or using a personal computer, or a button on the wall in your personal "garage" station. Today there would an app on your smartphone.

I moved to Toronto in July 1987, traffic was absurd! It made me think cars are obsolete for a city that size. There were 3 million people in Metro Toronto at that time. One option would be to integrate this with existing subway system. Winnipeg doesn't have a subway, but Toronto does. For individuals going to work downtown, rail taxis would group into clusters as they enter the full-size subway system. Creating "trains" about the size of a subway train. They would stop at a subway station. This would allow such a system to access everywhere the current subway goes, while only building new tunnels for the new housing development.

You could schedule a regular service, have a taxi pick you up at home every workday morning at the same time, take you to a station near work. Integrating "taxi trains" with existing full-size subway trains would work better with a smartphone. If you schedule a rail taxi to pick you up in a subway station, you have to be physically there for the rail taxi to enter the track / tunnel. You don't want a rail taxi blocking the track for a full-size train.

In such a neighbourhood, garbage bins would be placed in the residential subway tunnel. A special subway "truck" would pick up garbage. Utility lines would run in conduit in the tunnel, so utilities could be maintained by rail vehicles. Pizza would be delivered by a rail taxi. The taxi would have a trunk, so groceries could be carried home. A rail "truck" could deliver larger items, like furniture. In fact, a neighbourhood could be built with a "strip" shopping mall built around a full-size subway station. A grocery store could receive product via rail truck. With a special loading dock built into the basement of the grocery store, a rail truck could be built as large as an 18-wheel semi-truck. You could even design a rail vehicle to carry a 40-foot or 53-foot shipping container.

The advantage is all these rail vehicles would be electric, powered off the rails. And all vehicles underground, away from pedestrians and playing children. Imagine a neighbourhood where the only vehicles are construction vehicles. Residential rail stations would be too small for a 40-foot container, so a moving truck would also require access to the back lane.

Each neighbourhood would have a parkade. That's the Canadian term for a multi-level parking structure. So you could own a car; it would have to be parked in the parkade. A rail taxi could take you from the parkade to your home.

Without vehicle roads/streets, how much land does that free for people?

SpaceNut · 2018-02-11 19:14:20

Another thing to consider is just how far does any person want to walk? I know that when I go to work I park a bit over half a mile to where I can access work. When I look at convience to a business with street parking the distance becomes even less and that is why most down towns are dieing.

Void · 2018-02-11 20:10:15

That sounds very innovative RobertDyke.

I do know that at one time, our street car system was capable of allowing a person to travel from Minnesota to the East Coast.

Somebody, who came from a location where I grew up, took all of that apart. They wanted busses instead, the intention was to burn hydrocarbons, create a greater market for hydrocarbons.

I am not on a soap box, that is just the information that I have on it.

Additionally perhaps a partial solution is self driving busses and minivans. Electric preferably. Back to trolley cars, but no rails, and no overhead power cable. Robotic battery swap out perhaps, to keep them in service.

Perhaps Tesla might do it.

Last edited by Void (2018-02-11 20:22:30)

SpaceNut · 2018-02-11 21:11:07

Rail systems were all privately owned and were of different widths and shapes such that there was no cooperation between the lines that existed way be when.

Just think 200 years ago these were all the rage for housing:

lincoln-cabin-henri-grissino-mayer-brook-silva-braga-620.jpg

Ya maybe Lincoln lived in one of these or slept in this one....

To solve the issue of transportation you could use one of these http://money.cnn.com/2018/01/17/technol … index.html

RobertDyck · 2018-02-11 22:26:35

Well, reading a bit more of your discussion, you spoke of transit infrastructure. Winnipeg has buses. Here is the system map. As you can see, it covers practically the entire city. Service in some areas sucks. I happen to live on a residential street, just 3 houses off a major thoroughfare. And I live relatively close to downtown. I can walk downtown, half an hour to 45 minutes depending on which part of downtown. Buses during week days come about every 10 minutes. But some areas get a bus once per hour. And buses don't run at all between 1:30am and 6:00am.

SpaceNut · 2018-02-11 22:46:04

https://www.yahoo.com/news/next-recessi … 56545.html

A long article but when you see the loss of jobs and other indicators we maybe headed towards another.

We do have bus services for some of the area and there are some lines that expand for work transport.

The nearest is roughly 2 miles from home and city is about 5 miles to 6 miles with the town is about 4 miles the other direction.

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