Crops

SpaceNut · 2017-08-20 11:03:18

The next page have been moved to start a new topic Crewman size and mass affects mission to mars

IanM · 2018-01-27 18:10:52

Avocados have been mentioned on here before, and they are useful as a fat (and, depending on the cultivar, protein) source, especially in the days before mass livestock husbandry. According to http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fe837, one acre can produce 3,300 lb (1500 kg) of the stuff per Earth year, ultimately at a cost of $0.23/lb ($0.51/kg), although this figure does not account for greenhouse heating and importation. This efficiency can perhaps be increased, as avocado trees use C3 photosynthesis, becoming more efficient than C4 plants once CO2 concentration surpasses 700 microliters/L in the air, which can be pumped into the greenhouse.

The main drawbacks to avocados are that they aren't very adapted to the cold, requiring a minimum temperature of 20F (-6.66C) even for the hardiest cultivars, hindering production on Earth north of SoCal and Florida. Avocado fruit also browns very rapidly with air exposure from personal experience with guacamole, doing so within an hour, although that does not immediately affect its edibility. They're also hard to breed, requiring grafting, although the import of an initial "mother graft" shouldn't be too difficult. They're one of those fruits that require ethylene to fully ripen, like citrus, though that might not be an issue depending on the local chemistry. They reach a height of 15-20 feet at maturity, which would provide a minimum height of an orchard greenhouse and is similar to that of semi-dwarf and normal apple trees. Ultimately, I think growing avocados would be a good idea for Martians once a greenhouse for them is big enough and warm enough year-round.

SpaceNut · 2018-01-27 20:08:06

A deverse crop will be needed by man once we have gone a couple times as we will want to grow the population that is there on mars to allow for a greater independance from earths very expensive supply trains.

IanM · 2018-01-27 21:42:26

SpaceNut wrote:

A deverse crop will be needed by man once we have gone a couple times as we will want to grow the population that is there on mars to allow for a greater independance from earths very expensive supply trains.

I agree, especially for nutritional purposes as I explain below.

Brought up earlier in this thread is what the dietary needs of Martians would be, in terms of protein, carbs, and fat. I am not a dietitian by any means and pulled all of this information from the internet, but I have decided to crunch some numbers. I think I've touched on this before in this thread with the calories needed, but I don't think I actually investigated where these calories came from, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

I assume a male Martian would be 160 lb (73 kg) in weight, 6 feet tall from the low Martian gravity, and have 15% body fat. (The validity of this figure can be debated in the Crewmember size thread, and if it turns out this entire post belongs there as well feel free to move it.) Giving this and assuming that they all are 25 (Earth) years old and all participate in moderate exercise gives a Total Daily Energy Expenditure of 2639 calories/day according to https://tdeecalculator.net/, which I'll round up to 2650. According to https://wa.kaiserpermanente.org/healthA … ncing.html, about 50-60% of calories should be from carbs, about 30% from fat, and 12-20% protein, although https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/ho … in-per-day recommends up to 30% from protein, which I'll take to prevent muscle wasting, which would likely affect early Martians.

This means a Martian man should eat per day 1325-1590 calories of carbs, 795 calories of fat, and anywhere from 318 to 795 calories of protein. Using their respective caloric densities via https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/a … d-calories, this translate to 331.25-397.5g of carbs a day, 88.3g of fat, and 79.5-198.75g of protein a day. Taking the high values of all of these this means the Martian diet would need up to 684.6g of food a day (1.5 lb), around 0.9% of total body mass.

Doing the same for a woman (assuming a weight of 140 lb (64 kg), a height of 5'7, and 25% body fat, but keeping the rest the same) yields a TDEE of 2168 calories a day, being rounded up to 2200. Doing all the same math yields 275-330g of carbs, 73.3g of fat, and 66-165g of protein, a high total of 568.3g of food a day (1.25 lb), again around 0.9% of total body mass.

Taking only the male values and rounding up the highest amounts, I get 400g of carbs, 90g of fat, and 200g of protein needed. No single food item I know of has that exact ratio of macronutrients. According to various sources, mostly fatsecret.com and Google, here are some vegan items with various measurements of their macronutrients for reference. This is just a basic list for now:

Apple (per 1 medium): 19.06g carbs, 0.23g fat, 0.36g protein, 72 calories
Avocado (per 1 California avocado, weighing 136g): 12g carbs, 21g fat, 2.7g protein, 227 calories
Avocado (per 1 Florida avocado, weighing 304g): 24g carbs, 31g fat, 7g protein, 364 calories
Banana (per 1 medium): 26.95g carbs, 0.39g fat, 1.29g protein, 105 calories
Corn/Maize (per 1 ear, on the cob, cooked, plain): 17g carbs, 1g fat, 1g protein, 77 calories
Grits (per 1 cup, cooked, plain, not of the Justin Trudeau variety): 23.11g carbs, 0.34g fat, 2.56g protein, 109 calories
Lentils (per 1 cup, cooked, plain): 36.71g carbs, 13.25g fat, 13.25g protein, 323 calories
Oatmeal (per 1 cup, cooked, plain): 25.37g carbs, 2.39g fat, 6.06g protein, 145 calories
Potato (per 1 medium, roasted): 27.28g carbs, 9.52g fat, 3.16g protein, 203 calories
Potato (per 1 medium, baked, plain): 37.09g carbs, 0.22g fat, 4.55g protein, 168 calories
Quinoa (per 1 cup, cooked, plain): 42.17g carbs, 3.55g fat, 8.01g protein, 229 calories
Rice (per 1 cup, white, cooked): 44.08g carbs, 0.44g fat, 4.2g protein, 204 calories
Wheat bread (per 1 regular slice, plain): 12.26g carbs, 1.07g fat, 2.37g protein, 67 calories

elderflower · 2018-01-28 06:00:24

IanM. You need to bear in mind that a 73kg mass weighs about 716 N on Earth but only about 272 N on Mars. The inertia of the body and it's parts remains the same as on earth. This will affect the work rate of the skeletal muscles, which will be much reduced relative to the same muscles in Earth gravity.

Terraformer · 2018-01-28 06:57:26

I wouldn't rely on the claimed carb-protein-fat proportions for a healthy diet. As long as people are getting enough protein and total calories, it doesn't seem to matter much whether the calories come from fat or carbohydrate. The Irish survived quite well on a diet consisting mostly of potatoes, and we know people live fine on a diet with very little carbohydrate. Given that we can get a higher yield for carbohydrates than for fats, I suggest it should be biased towards the former. Though we can fry everything, if we produce enough oil.

elderflower · 2018-01-28 14:37:19

You still need fat soluble vitamins (A and D). Your diet has to include some fats, although I don't know what the minimum is for any of the potential sources, such as sunflowers, oil seed rape, flax, cannabis or pumpkin seeds.

IanM · 2018-01-28 17:23:04

elderflower wrote:

You need to bear in mind that a 73kg mass weighs about 716 N on Earth but only about 272 N on Mars. The inertia of the body and it's parts remains the same as on earth. This will affect the work rate of the skeletal muscles, which will be much reduced relative to the same muscles in Earth gravity.

That is a good point, I assumed that it was only the mass that mattered. This negative impact on muscles makes protein all the more important. It is somewhat unfortunate that the most efficient protein sources are from animals, but I think early Martians can make do with such sources as tofu.

SpaceNut · 2018-01-28 17:31:47

With respect to the post of IanM #504 and a nutritional plan that is taken care of with a menu of the foods as schedueled for each meal to which when we get foods that are growing we will supplement the menu with these items.

louis · 2018-01-28 19:58:44

Personally, I think the pioneers will wear weighted suits to replicate the effects of gravity on Earth (and thus maintain good health), so the workrate will be similar to that on Earth, as reagards the skeletal muscles.

I think it would be a good idea to grow the plants that are used in the creation of the entirely vegetarian Impossible Burger (now on sale) which reportedly gives a very good illusion that you are eating a meat burger, because it replicates all the features of minced beef - colour texture, fat and protein content, "blood" content, cooking quality, granularity, mouth feel, juices etc.

https://www.impossiblefoods.com/burger/

Haven't tasted one but the video looks pretty convincing and I have read news reports of some people saying they can't taste any difference to meat, and even those who detect a difference, say it is a very acceptable substitute.

Of course with a cargo BFR able to deliver 150 tonnes to Mars, there's no reason why frozen meat shouldn't be brought in on a regular basis as a luxury addition to the diet. Maybe a typical omnivore on Mars would have for a main meal: 3 vegetarian dishes per week, 2 meat substitute dishes, and 2 meals based on imported meat. For a colony of 1000, that would mean importing only about 16 tonnes of meat per annum (using Earth years). That seems a lot easier than trying to raise cattle or other domesticated animals in an early colony.

IanM wrote:

elderflower wrote:
You need to bear in mind that a 73kg mass weighs about 716 N on Earth but only about 272 N on Mars. The inertia of the body and it's parts remains the same as on earth. This will affect the work rate of the skeletal muscles, which will be much reduced relative to the same muscles in Earth gravity.
That is a good point, I assumed that it was only the mass that mattered. This negative impact on muscles makes protein all the more important. It is somewhat unfortunate that the most efficient protein sources are from animals, but I think early Martians can make do with such sources as tofu.

RobertDyck · 2018-01-28 21:30:48

Cooking oil available in stores is made from canola, sunflower, safflower, corn oil, or soybean oil. Canola was developed from rapeseed, reducing glucosinolates and erucic acid to make it edible, and optimized for Canada's climate. USDA has developed a cultivar of rapeseed that's also low in erucic acid, but optimized for US climate. I suggest soybean oil because we need soybean for other things.

Crisco shortening is made from soybean oil, fully hydrogenated palm oil, and palm oil. It used to be made from soybean oil and cottonseed oil, including partially hydrogenated oil. In 2007 they changed their formula to include less partially hydrogenated cottonseed and soybean oil, and more fully hydrogenated cottonseed oil. Now they don't use cottonseed oil at all, instead use palm oil. Fluffo brand shortening is from soybean oil, hydrogenated palm oil, and modified palm oil. Tenderflake is lard, made from pig fat. I suggest soybean and cottonseed oil formula, because we need cotton anyway for clothing.

Avocado is the only fruit that has fat. Guacamole includes lime juice to prevent mashed avocado from turning brown.

louis · 2018-01-29 03:54:26

Olives are fruits as well, so not true to say avocado is the only fatty fruit - but agreed fatty fruits are very rare.

RobertDyck wrote:

Cooking oil available in stores is made from canola, sunflower, safflower, corn oil, or soybean oil. Canola was developed from rapeseed, reducing glucosinolates and erucic acid to make it edible, and optimized for Canada's climate. USDA has developed a cultivar of rapeseed that's also low in erucic acid, but optimized for US climate. I suggest soybean oil because we need soybean for other things.
Crisco shortening is made from soybean oil, fully hydrogenated palm oil, and palm oil. It used to be made from soybean oil and cottonseed oil, including partially hydrogenated oil. In 2007 they changed their formula to include less partially hydrogenated cottonseed and soybean oil, and more fully hydrogenated cottonseed oil. Now they don't use cottonseed oil at all, instead use palm oil. Fluffo brand shortening is from soybean oil, hydrogenated palm oil, and modified palm oil. Tenderflake is lard, made from pig fat. I suggest soybean and cottonseed oil formula, because we need cotton anyway for clothing.
Avocado is the only fruit that has fat. Guacamole includes lime juice to prevent mashed avocado from turning brown.

elderflower · 2018-01-29 04:04:38

All fruits have some oil in their seeds. Most have really small quantities but some have a lot, eg coconuts, walnuts. Often the oils in the seeds are inedible. Fruits with oily flesh are much less common

RobertDyck · 2018-01-29 04:26:32

louis wrote:

Olives are fruits as well, so not true to say avocado is the only fatty fruit - but agreed fatty fruits are very rare.

I read that claim. The claim is that olive oil is an oil, not a fat. The difference is oil is liquid at room temperature, while fat is solid. Eh, whatever. Doesn't really matter. Olives would be good too. I posted about olives earlier in this thread.

louis · 2018-01-29 12:26:23

Avocado oil is an oil! Personally I use grapeseed oil...

One great thing about oils is that the have the highest of calories per mass of any foods, so we should encourage their use as part of a well balanced diet.

RobertDyck wrote:

louis wrote:
Olives are fruits as well, so not true to say avocado is the only fatty fruit - but agreed fatty fruits are very rare.
I read that claim. The claim is that olive oil is an oil, not a fat. The difference is oil is liquid at room temperature, while fat is solid. Eh, whatever. Doesn't really matter. Olives would be good too. I posted about olives earlier in this thread.

Oldfart1939 · 2018-01-29 17:45:44

Don't forget peanuts and peanut oil! Can't make a stir fry without peanut oil!

SpaceNut · 2018-01-29 18:04:24

Once we have excess oils of all types, we now have Bio-Desiel uses that will start to come into play. When we do have excess foods not being eaten and from food spoilage to deal with as well this waste stream opens up oportunities in the future. Then again the transport time back to earth is not going to work but to places in between then we have another chance to make a mars export from this excess.

IanM · 2018-02-01 19:23:20

I calculated some nutritional values for crops per area needed to grow and the length of the growing season from my data in Post #504 and various sources from the internet. For the length of the growing season the day/sol distinction is irrelevant. Each list is in order from most efficient to least efficient. Crops marked by an asterisk in the fat list use C3 photosynthesis, which means that they can likely be made even more efficient with high CO2 levels in the greenhouse.

FAT:
Olives (via Olive Oil): 3947.4-9868.4 g/acre-day
Peanuts: 5299 g/acre-day*
California Avocados: 846.3 g/acre-day*
Florida Avocados: 558.3 g/acre-day*
Potatoes: 110.2-470.5 g/acre-day*
Quinoa: 83.6-193.6 g/acre-day*
Corn/Maize: 85.9-153.6 g/acre-day

CARBOHYDRATES:
Potatoes: 18583-79318 g/acre-day
Corn/Maize: 1460.7-2611.2 g/acre-day
Peanuts: 1766 g/acre-day
Quinoa: 993.5-2300 g/acre-day
California Avocados: 483.6 g/acre-day
Florida Avocados: 126 g/acre-day

PROTEIN:
Potatoes: 2280-9730 g/acre-day
Peanuts: 2797 g/acre-day
Quinoa: 188.7-436.8 g/acre-day
Florida Avocados: 126 g/acre-day
Corn/Maize: 85.9-153.6 g/acre-day
California Avocados: 108.8 g/acre-day

ENERGY:
Average solar radiation: 590 W/m^2 = 50.7 million kcal/acre-sol (theoretical maximum)
Potatoes: 84174-359274 kcal/acre-day
Corn/Maize: 6616-11827 kcal/acre-day
California Avocados: 9148 kcal/acre-day
Quinoa: 5395-12488 kcal/acre-day
Florida Avocados: 6552 kcal/acre-day

RobertDyck · 2018-02-10 22:56:07

From Terraformation » Building soil

MarsMouse wrote:

I haven't noticed too many articles or the mentioning of Bees on Mars. From my distant but quite intensive experience on a farm in my youth I remember being told that "crops won't grow without the bees." And so, I would imagine that any endeavor to grow crops on Mars would have to include one of Earth's most successful horticulturist. Unless done so artificially, why not use Bees? If it's possible to successfully transport them to the Red Planet?

Other insects can pollinate: bumblebees, pollen wasps, bee flies, hover flies, mosquitoes, ants, butterflies, moths, flower beetles, bats, humming birds, sunbirds, "honeyeater" birds, and even some lizards and small mammals. However, only honey bees produce honey.

Beans can self-pollinate, but "fruit set" is better with a pollinator. Primary pollinator for butter beans (aka lima beans) is honey bees.

Last edited by RobertDyck (2018-02-10 22:56:36)

Oldfart1939 · 2018-02-10 23:50:33

The "bee problem" was addressed earlier in my posts # 405, # 415, # 419, and # 425 this thread. Robert has made several mentions as well.

SpaceNut · 2018-07-08 08:20:26

Well a no bee crop would be as Experts say algae is the food of the future. Here's why.

algae smoothies, algae protein bars and algae chips.

The average American male consumes 100 grams of protein daily -- almost double the necessary amount. This overconsumption isn't sustainable. The United Nations projects food production will need to increase as much as 70% by 2050 to feed an extra 2.5 billion people.
To survive, we need to reinvent the way we farm and eat. Experts say algae could be a possible solution. Unlike most crops, it doesn't require fresh water to flourish. That's a big deal. About 70% of the planet's available fresh water goes toward crops and raising livestock.
Meat uses up a lot of our finite resources, like water and land, not just for the animals but to grow their food, too. But the green slimy stuff that lives in oceans, ponds and aquariums can grow fast, is packed with nutrition and needs next to nothing to grow. It can even grow in a desert.

Void · 2018-07-08 11:43:53

I will reply.

As we see that not only will crops have to be adapted to winter seasons and nighttime cold problems, dust storms may very well cause great economic loss by terminating a crop prematurely.

You have just previously mentioned Algae. I will add Mushrooms, and Potatoes. None of these needing bees. We might also consider other micro-organisms which use sunlight and those that use chemicals, and even those that can grow from electricity. All three of these possible methods may be adaptive and suitable to help humans inhabit Mars with success.

1) Just for fun I will first mention the electricity eating microbes. We are a long distance from growing them as "Crops" however, but it is not beyond consideration to explore, in my opinion.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn … re-energy/

2) I will set aside Chemosynthesis for now, because it is pretty obvious that you could grow microbes with chemicals, if you provided a habitable environment for them.

3) Photo-Organisms:
I recall that RobertDyck has done a lot of work on greenhouses, and how to protect crops from UV. In the cases cited, usually a coating for the glass to reject UV would be used. It may be that that would be prohibitive in expense, or simply not always the easiest way.

Historically I have considered ice, or ice with additives that would protect the waters below.

Now I am more strongly considering the additives. For that reason I include the following reference materials:
http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/20 … itan-.html
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn … tmosphere/
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2004cosp...35.1076I
https://www.astrobio.net/news-exclusive … rly-earth/
…...
https://www.colorado.edu/today/2010/06/ … lder-study
Quote:

A new study shows a thick organic haze that enshrouded early Earth several billion years ago may have been similar to the haze now hovering above Saturn's largest moon, Titan, and would have protected primordial life on the planet from the damaging effects of ultraviolet radiation.

It is my opinion that Venus, Earth, and Mars all probably had such a protection in their early years.

This information suggests a pathway to terraforming Mars, and it also suggests methods of construction for greenhouses.

We could apply a coating to the inside of the greenhouse glass, but I think that likely, over time it would change chemically, and we would have to clean the glass and re-coat it. Also in the case where the coating is on the glass, much of the infrared energy which would result from UV interacting with "Tholins?" would leak out of the greenhouse into the Martian sky.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tholin

So, I suggest a greenhouse(s) over a water reservoir, and very likely ice with Tholin included to shield the waters below. The UV, may be Blocked, and perhaps 80% of the visible light would get through. This might mimic early Earth.

In this case the long wave infrared generated in the ice by the interactions of UV with Tholin would tend to be retained within the greenhouse, by the greenhouse effect, and the fact that the greenhouse having a pressure not that much above Martian ambient would not be a very good convection process.

Argon Windows?
https://www.thebalancesmb.com/cost-bene … ows-844558
Quote: (I am interested in the following, along with the 'r' effects).

This type of window can block ultraviolet rays

So, I am a bit weak, or very weak on the Argon utility. Don't know if it would make sense to fill the type of greenhouse I mention with Argon, to retain heat, and maybe somehow to assist in blocking UV???

Anyway, I am partial to spraying a freezable coating on top of an ice layer at the bottom of the greenhouse. The freezable coating having UV blocking capabilities. Perhaps Tholin.

The greenhouse I am thinking of being maximized to block UV, and to retain heat into the reservoir below. Also we hope allowing enough visible light into the waters to allow photosynthesis.

We could hope to grow Algae below the ice.

However, I might prefer a "Sub-Greenhouse" filled with water. That way the contents of it can be tuned as far as PH, and fertility of the waters, and it may rise to higher temperatures during the day.

I mentioned Potatoes, and Mushrooms. This is because I think these may be possible to grow together, in air filled Sub-Greenhouses. Some tolerance of dust storms would be built into this, as potatoes may be edible even before fully grown. The partnership of Potatoes, a photo-organism and Mushrooms would be symbiotic to a degree. The size of the Sub-Greenhouses would be small bottles or something so large that humans could be in it.

My computer is typing extremely slow. I don't like hackers. I am paranoid, but when I get on this site is when it happens. Oh well, ok now.

While it is a greenhouse, it is also a solar collector, and a solar energy storage method.

Methods to extract electricity would be thermal, and/or salt gradients.

Exact methods don't need to be specified at this time.

The point being that if you were wise, you could have a solar economy that could tolerate dust storms of significant duration. Oxygen would be stored in the water, dissolved, and if you were wise you would have stored frozen foods. As for energy, the heat of the reservoir and/or the stratified salt gradients would provide emergency power when in winter or a dust storm or at night, and of course could provide power during good days as well.

Various microbial crops could be fostered in such a system.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2018-07-08 12:36:17)

SpaceNut · 2018-07-08 15:05:27

One important fact about a sustainable greenhouse is that it serves a dual purpose not only for food but for life support as well. In fact it serves more than two as it can also serve as waste recovery/ processing, materials to build or wear and an energy storage as it will or could be used to create bio fuels.

Until we build a mars analog greenhouse with the same inside to outside conditions to test we are just guessing for a natural glass greenhouse.

louis · 2018-07-08 15:55:06

I agree, Spacenut. As I have suggested before now, it would be worth building a hypo-pressurised "warehouse" style building with Mars analogue regolith, plus sol-cycle lighting and screen projections to give a "Mars feel". Even explorations could be simulated with Rovers entering a projection screen area that reproduces a journey across the Mars plains. You might even build a split level warehouse to simulate the BFR landing area, if you have crane-based unloading.

SpaceNut wrote:

One important fact about a sustainable greenhouse is that it serves a dual purpose not only for food but for life support as well. In fact it serves more than two as it can also serve as waste recovery/ processing, materials to build or wear and an energy storage as it will or could be used to create bio fuels.
Until we build a mars analog greenhouse with the same inside to outside conditions to test we are just guessing for a natural glass greenhouse.

louis · 2018-07-08 16:00:41

I'm not arguing for an extra 2.5 billion people but this Malthusian statement "This overconsumption isn't sustainable. " needs to be challenged. There are huge areas across the planet - Africa in particular - where agricultural efficiency could be vastly increased... I mean by more than 100%. There is a bit of a zero sum game going on between humans and the rest of the biosphere, but I have no doubt we could feed another 2.5 billiion if the proper arrangements are put in place.

The likelihood in any case is that there will be a medicinal cure for obesity very soon, involving stopping people feeling hungry all the time. We will then see food consumption plummet in places like the USA.

SpaceNut wrote:

Well a no bee crop would be as Experts say algae is the food of the future. Here's why.
https://i2.cdn.turner.com/money/dam/ass … 24x576.jpg
algae smoothies, algae protein bars and algae chips.
The average American male consumes 100 grams of protein daily -- almost double the necessary amount. This overconsumption isn't sustainable. The United Nations projects food production will need to increase as much as 70% by 2050 to feed an extra 2.5 billion people.
To survive, we need to reinvent the way we farm and eat. Experts say algae could be a possible solution. Unlike most crops, it doesn't require fresh water to flourish. That's a big deal. About 70% of the planet's available fresh water goes toward crops and raising livestock.
Meat uses up a lot of our finite resources, like water and land, not just for the animals but to grow their food, too. But the green slimy stuff that lives in oceans, ponds and aquariums can grow fast, is packed with nutrition and needs next to nothing to grow. It can even grow in a desert.
https://i2.cdn.turner.com/money/dam/ass … 80x439.jpg

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Re: Crops

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#519 2018-02-10 22:56:07

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