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#1 2017-07-08 19:43:48

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 12,701

To be hacked it seems that it does not matter

The 2016 elections and more have have lots of hacking and it seems like its no big deal to have things no longer private, that someone else could be you, that win at any cost justifies the means....

Nikki Haley: ‘Everybody knows that Russia meddled in our elections’ as well as other elections around the world, despite President Trump's refusal to say they did.

But it has not stopped there as cyber war indicates that threat of a “lights-out” scenario is not at all exaggerated. State-sponsored hackers—most likely Russian—have been, and continue to be busy trying to infiltrate nuclear power plants around the United States, among them Kansas-based Wolf Creek Nuclear Operating Corporation."

Feds Suspect Russians Behind Cyber-Attacks on Power Plants

"Investigators cannot definitively pin the new probing attacks, which did not affect plant controls, on Moscow. They haven't ruled out the possibility some other country's hackers, mimicking the Russians, are responsible for the breache"

America must defend against hackers before they devastate financial markets — or worse

Which leads to the voter fraud from meddling and proven Russian hacking into registries ect.... now Hundreds of voters un-register after Trump voter fraud panel demands info

"Hundreds of voters are responding to the possibility their information will be shared with President Trump’s election integrity panel by withdrawing their voter registration, according to a Friday report."


Of course the concern is for possible hacking once the information is collected....

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#2 2017-07-09 06:27:38

Terraformer
Member
From: Lancashire
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 2,849
Website

Re: To be hacked it seems that it does not matter

So, they've finally released the evidence that they've been withholding for the past 8-9 months? Could you post the links?


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#3 2017-07-09 08:57:07

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 12,701

Re: To be hacked it seems that it does not matter

They at the top of government will probably never release it all as its going to fall under the umbrella of nationa security...and subjective to those wanting to view what is posted.

Here's The Evidence Russia Hacked The Democratic National Committee
Much of it relies on signature methods used by the hackers, specific pieces of code, and distinguishing behavior.

CrowdStrike’s co-founder, Dmitri Alperovitch, uncovered evidence that two groups of Russian hackers he had named Cozy Bear and Fancy Bear, had been behind the DNC hack. Cozy Bear used a tool called SeaDaddy that allowed it to stealthily exfiltrate information from a victim’s computer.

Declassify the Evidence of Russian Hacking!

The debate over possible intervention in the election should be based on publicly disclosed evidence, not unverifiable, anonymous leaks is what everyone is wanting.

The part that can be seen is that the same code was found on nuclear power plant computers that was found elsewhere.

U.S. faults Russian government in nuclear plant, energy firm hackings

Russians said to be suspects in US power plant hackings

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#4 2017-07-09 15:27:56

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 12,701

Re: To be hacked it seems that it does not matter

Trump’s Son Met With Russian Lawyer After Being Promised Damaging Information on Clinton

So where did this treasure trove of information come from?

American intelligence agencies have concluded that Russian hackers and propagandists worked to tip the election toward Mr. Trump, in part by stealing and then providing to WikiLeaks internal Democratic Party and Clinton campaign emails that were embarrassing to Mrs. Clinton. WikiLeaks began releasing the material on July 22.

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#5 2017-07-09 18:22:01

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 3,817

Re: To be hacked it seems that it does not matter

So having a centralised nuclear power industry (as opposed to 200,000 wind turbines and 10 million solar panels)  is dangerous to national security? Whodathunk it.

And nations interfere in each other's elections? Surely not!!! I am sure the USA has never, ever tried to influence the result of a democratic election anywhere on the planet.


SpaceNut wrote:

The 2016 elections and more have have lots of hacking and it seems like its no big deal to have things no longer private, that someone else could be you, that win at any cost justifies the means....

Nikki Haley: ‘Everybody knows that Russia meddled in our elections’ as well as other elections around the world, despite President Trump's refusal to say they did.

But it has not stopped there as cyber war indicates that threat of a “lights-out” scenario is not at all exaggerated. State-sponsored hackers—most likely Russian—have been, and continue to be busy trying to infiltrate nuclear power plants around the United States, among them Kansas-based Wolf Creek Nuclear Operating Corporation."

Feds Suspect Russians Behind Cyber-Attacks on Power Plants

"Investigators cannot definitively pin the new probing attacks, which did not affect plant controls, on Moscow. They haven't ruled out the possibility some other country's hackers, mimicking the Russians, are responsible for the breache"

America must defend against hackers before they devastate financial markets — or worse

Which leads to the voter fraud from meddling and proven Russian hacking into registries ect.... now Hundreds of voters un-register after Trump voter fraud panel demands info

"Hundreds of voters are responding to the possibility their information will be shared with President Trump’s election integrity panel by withdrawing their voter registration, according to a Friday report."


Of course the concern is for possible hacking once the information is collected....


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#6 2017-07-09 19:01:10

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 12,701

Re: To be hacked it seems that it does not matter

Clapper: No evidence others besides Russia hacked U.S. election The ex-intel chief also commented on the community he used to head and said it “will continue to convey truth to power even if the power ignores the truth.”

Trump's deal with Russia alarms cyber experts President's announcement met dismay and mockery from lawmakers of both parties.

Cyber policy specialists also noted that similar attempts at cooperation between the two former Cold War adversaries have swiftly run aground in recent years.

That prospect had even Republicans in Congress expressing disbelief at Trump's expecting to work hand-in-glove with a nation whose hackers are suspected of launching cyberattacks against the 2016 presidential election, American power plants and email systems at the White House, Pentagon and State Department.

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#7 2017-07-10 12:36:31

kbd512
Member
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 1,977

Re: To be hacked it seems that it does not matter

SpaceNut,

Once again, you've posted more evidence of media claims that have zip / zero / zilch / nada in the way of actual evidence.  The fact that you choose to believe something for which you have absolutely no evidence, other than the say-so of some "anonymous sources", is "deplorable".  I won't hold my breath waiting for you to actually post some real evidence.

In the "Declassify the Evidence of Russian Hacking!" propaganda piece you posted, the author decried the "anachronistic Electoral College" system, which is liberal / socialist jargon for, "to hell with the constitutional republic system of government, we just want mob rule and socialism so we can impose our will on everyone else."  Your last liberal media darling child, former President Obama, stated that "We stand behind our election results, which accurately reflect the will of the American people."  Well, guess what?  We, the people of the United States elected President Donald Trump.  You can jump up and down and pitch a fit until you're blue in the face, but that's not going to change.

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#8 2017-07-10 13:29:54

kbd512
Member
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 1,977

Re: To be hacked it seems that it does not matter

louis wrote:

So having a centralised nuclear power industry (as opposed to 200,000 wind turbines and 10 million solar panels)  is dangerous to national security? Whodathunk it.

People who can't count or otherwise do basic math are dangerous to national security, but centralization of electrical power infrastructure is not.  If such was actually the case, then the same logic would apply to military bases, central governments, and disarming the citizenry and centralizing the armament of a nation to within a central government.  Those same people who can't count are even more dangerous when they attempt to get other people to share in their delusions or anti-logic.

If you think the security around nuclear facilities is too lax, what do you imagine security is like around a solar farm?

It doesn't matter whether you cut the flow of electricity from a nuclear, solar, or wind farm, the result is nearly always death and destruction if adequate capacity to replace lost capacity does not exist and solar and wind farms go a long way to ensuring that adequate capacity never exists.  Not that it would matter in the least to the anti-logic crowd, but the larger a particular facility is, the more difficult it becomes to defend it from attack.

louis wrote:

And nations interfere in each other's elections? Surely not!!! I am sure the USA has never, ever tried to influence the result of a democratic election anywhere on the planet.

There are people here (and elsewhere, obviously) who are dumb enough to believe that we can do whatever we want in other countries without consequence and that turnabout is not fair play.  They scream bloody murder whenever what we do to other people is revisited upon our own people.  In any event, there's no shortage of ignorant and self-deluded people in this world.

My personal belief is that we don't need any more enemies and that the best way to achieve that is to stay out of their affairs.  If they happen to start wars anyway, then there's not much we can do about it.  In any event, the reason we typically involve ourselves in the affairs of other countries is that other countries have repeatedly proven that they're not very adept at running their own affairs in a non-destructive way and they seem to like involving us in their affairs whenever it suits them, so we've no compunction about doing the same.

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#9 2017-07-10 15:42:08

Terraformer
Member
From: Lancashire
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 2,849
Website

Re: To be hacked it seems that it does not matter

Centralisation *is* dangerous to national security, since it results in single points of failure - which aren't necessarily that easy to defend against (a tree downing a power line, for example, in a system already close to being overloaded).


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#10 2017-07-10 19:03:04

kbd512
Member
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 1,977

Re: To be hacked it seems that it does not matter

Terraformer,

Every time I ask someone what their solution is, all I receive is a bunch of circular logic or ignorance about how things actually work or don't work, in most cases.  The solar farms and wind farms are all connected to the same grid that the nuclear generating stations are connected to and apart from a meltdown, all will predictably fail in the exact same manner.  Anyone with rudimentary understanding of how our grid works knows that you don't have to breach security at a nuclear facility to take the grid down.  If you disable or destroy any major step-up or step-down transforming station, all of which are unguarded unless you think cameras and a chain link fence can prevent terrorist attacks, you can cut power for weeks to months.  When that happens, lots of other bad things happen.  This is something I've actually lived through following Hurricane Ike, which killed more of my fellow Houstonians than any terrorists ever will.  It's not speculative.

None of the nuclear, coal, or gas generating stations here in Texas were seriously damaged by Hurricane Ike, but most of the power lines and transformers were heavily damaged or destroyed.  Following the storm, the power lines and transforming stations were all re-built, above ground, just as they were before Hurricane Ike, which is exactly what permitted the destruction to occur to begin with.

Since I can do basic math and determine what things cost, I know that if we have a handful of nuclear generating stations per state, then we can afford to invest in the infrastructure around those stations because compared to a solar or wind farm that provides equivalent capacity, nuclear generating stations occupy tiny parcels of land.  If our politicians could even buy a clue and somehow "discovered" that they could invest in 1970's-era LFTR technology, then those parcels of land become much smaller still and don't rely upon coolant to prevent meltdowns.

If it were up to me, which it's obviously not, I would have a contingent of soldiers attached to all of our nuclear and hydroelectric generating stations.  The soldiers would protect those facilities against aerial and ground attack with rail guns, Patriot missile batteries, and small arms.  Each major transforming station would receive at least a squad of soldiers per watch.  Actual protection of national infrastructure assets starts with using our military to provide real physical security and is an imminently reasonable first step in shoring up security.

The second step, which is every bit as important the first, is divesting ourselves of this internet-of-things when it comes to monitoring national security infrastructure (water treatment plants, generating stations, rail stations, etc).  If it means more Americans must be employed to guard our assets, then good.  We're already paying for the damage that hackers, terrorists, automation-related mistakes have produced.  The cost to employ some humans to do what only humans can do is therefore not unreasonable.

Both hackers and terrorists like attacking targets of opportunity that they think are lightly defended.  There's no way to defend everything and everyone at all times, but we can clearly limit the damage that these criminals do by denying them opportunities to attack what they perceive to be "soft" targets.

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#11 2017-07-10 19:53:40

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 12,701

Re: To be hacked it seems that it does not matter

The methods on infiltration into a computer system is getting more difficult to detect as time marches on. Spyware in Mexico targeted international experts well here you go as they are pointing to an America group as the source of the links to the Spyware...

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#12 2017-07-14 17:20:10

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 12,701

Re: To be hacked it seems that it does not matter

The voter fraud question of the rolls used to verify those that did vote is again a question to the efforts to prove that there was error being made a bit more tough when Nearly 3,500 Colorado voters cancel registration over Trump voter fraud probe and over the state's decision to turn over public information to President Trump's voter fraud commission.

Which brings me back in time to when Officials investigating why 126,000 voters were purged from NY rolls

So where the voters restored? Did the purge as it was called happen inother states or was this jus the first sign of the sites being hacked?

Conservative group urges Maryland to do more to weed out ineligible voters — or it will sue

In a letter to the Maryland State Board of Elections last week, Judicial Watch cited data showing that there are more registered voters in Montgomery than there are citizens of voting age (18 and over). The group called it “strong circumstantial evidence” that the state’s rolls are swollen by voters who are deceased, have moved away or who are not citizens.

Then again the change in voters that are registered appears to be linked to the real -ID

At the state and local levels, officials have cited concerns about fraud to enact stricter voter-ID laws and in some cases mass purging of voter rolls — measures that critics say are aimed at suppressing minority voting.

Or are we being duped into this as Trump ‘voter fraud’ squad may already be tricking voters into taking themselves off the rolls. It’s almost as if disenfranchising people is the whole point. Tow which if there are rules to purge the registry for no votes cast then it may come as a shock to the individual when they go to vote and are turned away for the occurance of the purge of the registry.

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#13 2017-09-07 19:32:34

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 12,701

Re: To be hacked it seems that it does not matter

The US has 3 major credit reporting bereaus and Giant Equifax data breach: 143 million people could be affected

Equifax says a giant cybersecurity breach compromised the personal information of as many as 143 million Americans — almost half the country.

Cyber criminals have accessed sensitive information -- including names, social security numbers, birth dates, addresses, and the numbers of some driver's licenses.

Additionally, Equifax said that credit card numbers for about 209,000 U.S. customers were exposed, as was "personal identifying information" on roughly 182,000 U.S. customers involved in credit report disputes. Residents in the U.K. and Canada were also impacted.

The breach occurred between mid-May and July, Equifax said. The company said it discovered the hack on July 29.

Just great....not...

Equifax is one of three nationwide credit-reporting companies that track and rates the financial history of U.S. consumers. The companies are supplied with data about loans, loan payments and credit cards, as well as information on everything from child support payments, credit limits, missed rent and utilities payments, addresses and employer history, which all factor into credit scores.

Not to meantion that bad data in one will slowly show up in the others making the corruption of information difficult if not impossible to correct.

It also says that consumers can check to see if they've potentially been impacted by submitting their name and the last six digits of their social security number. Users are given a date when they will be enrolled in free identity theft protection and credit file monitoring services. Equifax did not immediately reply to CNN Tech's request for more information about the process.

https://www.equifaxsecurity2017.com/potential-impact/

Negative information contained in the data base can and does keep people from many things in there everyday walks of life.

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#14 2017-09-08 16:40:18

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 12,701

Re: To be hacked it seems that it does not matter

Follow the link to see how one might know and it felt more like you are being inticed to enroll and then wops bate and switch as you will be hammered for a service that is not free,

Why breach victims might not want Equifax credit monitoring

Exposed data includes names, Social Security numbers, birth dates, addresses, and in some cases, driver's license numbers, Equifax said in its announcement. The breach also compromised credit card numbers for 209,000 consumers, and dispute documents with personal identifying information for 182,000 consumers.

Equifax Is Trying To Make Money Off Its Massive Security Failure
The fine print in its “free” service for hack victims indicates they’ll have to pay later and they can never sue.

While doing a check of your credit report might be ok through them I think using either of the 2  remaining agencies more of a sanity check....Experian and TransUnion

The companies are notorious for charging access for the information, which by law is available to consumers for free once a year. Experian has been fined multiple times by the Federal Trade Commission for tricking consumers with false promises of “free” credit reports that wound up costing money.

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#15 2017-09-17 18:16:53

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 12,701

Re: To be hacked it seems that it does not matter

My Three Years in Identity Theft Hell, From Shock to Digging Out

I was and I wasn’t. I had accounts everywhere, and most of them weren’t mine. This wasn’t the first time, and I was sure it wouldn’t be the last.

Between 2013, when my identity was stolen, and this May, I tried to prove to credit bureaus and banks that I was me and not the thief. The fake accounts he created shut me out of crucial parts of the consumer finance economy. I was denied credit cards, got harassed by collection agencies, and was told not to bother putting my name on a mortgage application for a house my wife and I were trying to buy. We are buying the house after all (my wife and I, not the guy and I), but I’m not to participate in the financing process or include my assets or wages in the application. That can mean a higher rate on the loan, one credit expert told me.

More people are likely to be victimized after the massive hack of 143 million Americans that Equifax Inc. announced last week. In that breach, thieves took Social Security numbers, addresses, driver’s license data, and birth dates.

The horror stories have just begun.....

Equifax Hackers Exploited Months-Old Flaw

Equifax, criminals were able to pilfer data from mid-May to July, when the credit bureau says it finally stopped the intrusion. The Apache Software Foundation, which oversees the Apache Struts project, said in a press release Thursday that a software update to patch the flaw was issued in March, one day after it was first discovered.

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#16 2017-09-25 19:17:27

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 12,701

Re: To be hacked it seems that it does not matter

A cyberattack hit the email system of accounting company Deloitte hack reportedly hit corporate, government clients

The breach occurred because the administrator did not have two-factor authentication, requiring only a password to sign in and thats the weak point of logins. Two-factor authentication would have alerted the account owner of the unauthorized access, and may have prevented the attacker from accessing it outright.

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#17 2017-10-03 19:22:15

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 12,701

Re: To be hacked it seems that it does not matter

IRS hires Equifax despite massive data breach

The IRS last week hired the credit reporting company to provide fraud prevention and taxpayer identification services, Politico reports, citing a government database that lists federal contracts. The tax agency retained Equifax to ensure it can continue to verify filers' identity while the IRS resolves a disagreement over another contract, according to the news outlet.

I guess you get what you will be paying for....

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#18 2017-11-05 18:59:14

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 12,701

Re: To be hacked it seems that it does not matter

The government seems to be working on Leaks not hacks....

The White House's Leak Hunt Is Battling the Wrong Enemy With the Wrong Weapons, Trump should fire the NSA officials in charge when hacking tools go missing.

Attorney General Jeff Sessions is focusing on individuals who have given the news media comparatively small amounts of White House information. Digital secrets stolen from the National Security Agency represent the real — and critical — security problem. More than half a billion pages have been swiped, most of it above top secret, with the most recent theft reported in October alone.

Sounds firmilar well it should Snowden.....

'Hack back' bill picks up new cosponsors

Rep. Tom Graves (R-Ga.) announced a host of new, bipartisan co-sponsors to his Active Cyber Defense Certainty Act on Friday afternoon.

The bill would allow victims of hackers to hack back their assailants under a limited set of circumstances, in order to identify the attacker or retrieve or delete stolen data.

Graves has said this legislation will increase the ability of victims to properly attribute damage to hackers and prevent stolen documents from falling into the wrong hands.

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#19 2017-11-06 09:23:08

RobertDyck
Member
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 5,439
Website

Re: To be hacked it seems that it does not matter

Warning, this document is on a US government website. Writen by the Director of National Intelligence with input from the CIA, DOJ, and NSA. Assessing Russian Activities and Intentions in Recent US Elections

Putin most likely wanted to discredit Secretary Clinton because he has publicly blamed her since 2011 for inciting mass protests against his regime in late 2011 and early 2012, and because he holds a grudge for comments he almost certainly saw as disparaging him.

Huffington Post: Why Russia Is Interfering In The U.S. Presidential Elections

On October 7, 2016, the United States government accused Russia of illegally attempting to influence the results of the US presidential election.
...
The Clintons feature prominently in these past cases of US interference in Russian domestic politics. Under Bill Clinton’s watch, the United States actively supported Boris Yeltsin’s retention of power.
...
During the 2011-12 mass protests, Putin’s allies frequently accused the CIA of sabotaging Russia’s elections. Representatives of Putin’s United Russia Party argued that the United States was attempting to instigate an Orange Revolution-style turnover of power in Russia that would bring back “perestroika” and revolutionary chaos. Liberal nationalists like Alexey Navalny were publicly discredited as foreign agents. Putin’s supporters also launched large-scale anti-Orange demonstrations in Moscow to protest against perceived US meddling in Russia’s elections.

The Euro-Maidan Revolution in Ukraine, and rising influence of hardline anti-American policymakers like Vladislav Surkov and FSB head Nikolai Patrushev, have made Putin even more reactive to perceived US involvement in Russian internal politics. Former US Ambassador to Russia Michael McFaul’s decision to redirect $50 million towards civil society assistance to Russia in March 2012 has been cited as smoking gun evidence for pernicious US interference in Russian politics.

This article was published in October 2016, just before the election. It ends with "This means that regardless of who wins on November 8, Russian involvement in US politics is likely to be an enduring feature of Kremlin foreign policy for years to come." But now some US lawmakers are speaking of retaliation against Russia. What? Russian interference in the US election is retaliation for interfering in their election. I have a simple suggestion: stop interfering in their election on condition that they commit to stop interfering in yours. Simple?

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#20 2017-11-26 14:16:03

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 12,701

Re: To be hacked it seems that it does not matter

During the campaign Donald Trump Calls on Russia to Find Hillary Clinton’s Missing Emails

another bizarre moment amid questions about the hacking of the Democratic National Committee’s computer servers, which American intelligence agencies have told the White House they have “high confidence” was the work of the Russian government. “If Russia or any other country or person has Hillary Clinton’s 33,000 illegally deleted emails, perhaps they should share them with the FBI!”

To which the FBI didn't tell U.S. targets as Russian hackers hunted emails Russian hackers were trying to break into their personal Gmail accounts despite having evidence for at least a year that the targets were in the Kremlin's crosshairs.

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#21 2018-01-12 20:48:34

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 12,701

Re: To be hacked it seems that it does not matter

U.S. Senate targeted by Russian hackers, cybersecurity firm says

The same Russian government-aligned hackers who penetrated the Democratic Party have spent the past few months laying the groundwork for an espionage campaign against the U.S. Senate, a cybersecurity firm said Friday. The revelation suggests the group often nicknamed Fancy Bear, whose hacking campaign dogged the 2016 U.S. electoral contest, is still busy trying to infiltrate the email accounts of America's political elite.

"They're still very active -- in making preparations at least -- to influence public opinion again,

To undermine our freedom....our democracy...

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#22 2018-01-13 05:48:17

elderflower
Member
Registered: 2016-06-19
Posts: 879

Re: To be hacked it seems that it does not matter

And not just the USA. All the major western democracies are subject to this interference.

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#23 2018-01-13 08:25:27

Terraformer
Member
From: Lancashire
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 2,849
Website

Re: To be hacked it seems that it does not matter

I suspect it's not just western democracies, either. Does anyone seriously believe the CIA is innocent of such shenanigans?


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#24 2018-01-13 10:08:38

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 12,701

Re: To be hacked it seems that it does not matter

The only agency the Trump has not belittled, wonder if he even knows that they are the deep state......in all of this Russian hacking... not....

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#25 2018-01-19 15:44:24

kbd512
Member
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 1,977

Re: To be hacked it seems that it does not matter

It sounds like we have a lot of work to do to ensure that neither foreign governments nor individual hackers can sabotage our infrastructure.  As far as election year propaganda is concerned, we interfere in foreign elections all the time.  Is turnabout no longer fair play?

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