Why do we have Poverty in America

SpaceNut · 2017-12-10 21:58:06

Not just a question but I am sure one that is more that the federal and state government influenced...

2017 Federal Poverty Guidelines

But then there is another table for the states to determine what level of benefits you will qualify for under the states own system.

This problem has been noticed from and by other nations that have come to the US and seen first hand the poor areas of the us.

U.N. Official Shocked at Poverty In Rural Alabama

BBGv9Yt.img?h=181&w=270&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f

Sort of an a typical place just about anywhere in rural north america.

It was said that they were shocked at the level of environmental degradation in some areas.

The U.N. investigation aims to study the effects of systemic poverty in a prosperous nation like the United States.

The Economic inequality and racial discrimination are not the only factors for being poor...

Taxation is in there of course....

SpaceNut · 2017-12-11 22:33:53

http://www.povertyusa.org/

48 million live in poverty and I think that it may be even more.

https://www.npr.org/series/155932539/poverty-in-america

poverty_wide-3b2803321a186a95147296f5bc029de74e663127-s400-c85.gif

Why the UN is investigating extreme poverty … in America, the world's richest nation

The United Nations monitor on extreme poverty and human rights has embarked on a coast-to-coast tour of the US to hold the world’s richest nation – and its president – to account for the hardships endured by America’s most vulnerable citizens.
The tour, which kicked off on Friday morning, will make stops in four states as well as Washington DC and the US territory of Puerto Rico. It will focus on several of the social and economic barriers that render the American dream merely a pipe dream to millions – from homelessness in California to racial discrimination in the Deep South, cumulative neglect in Puerto Rico and the decline of industrial jobs in West Virginia.

kbd512 · 2017-12-12 01:27:46

I think one has to be deliberately obtuse to believe that discrimination and taxation are major factors in poverty in America today. Other issues are obviously at play here. I don't look down my nose at anyone else because they look different than I do and seriously doubt the majority of Americans do, either. Quite frankly, most of us just don't care about such nonsense. Appearances are superficial and whatever is going on in somone's head is far, far more important than looks ever will be. That's not to say that you should not leave a good impression on other people who are interviewing you for a job, but behavior and intelligence are overwhelmingly the most important factors that determine success in life. Lusting after anyone else's job, money, or lifestyle is a waste of time. Expecting someone to give things to you simply because you were born here is equally wasteful of your limited time here.

Here's some free advice for youngsters who want to be successful in life. Contrary to popular belief, what you paid for something often has little bearing on what it's worth. This would be the magic 8-Ball, such as it were, for being successful here in America:

1. Graduate from high school. This is a "must". All further success in life starts with a basic education. As I have a habit of telling my daughter, who "hates" school, "We teach you for your benefit. One day not so far into the future, we will no longer be here, but you will, and tomorrow is still coming."

2. Graduate from college if your professional interests require a college degree and note that not all follow-on work opportunities will be equal. Basket weaving may be your passion in life, but it may not pay very well unless you're the best basket weaver in town. You should have a day job that you're good at. I love to fly, but it's a passion. I'll probably never be a professional pilot. I make lots of money at my day job so I can pursue my passion in life. Word to the wise, though, planes, sailboats, and houses are black holes that eat money instead of star dust.

3. Don't have children out of wedlock, if at all possible. If not, ensure you have a good relationship with the person you have children with. Irrespective of whether you're a man who loves other men, a woman who loves other women, a man/woman who loves women/men, or some variation I haven't even thought of, children still need a pair of committed partners who put their welfare above personal problems encountered in that partnership. All problems with your significant other are a distant second issue to raising your children. Always. To ignore this rule is to invite disaster upon you and your children.

4. Love your spouse and children. This generally means having the maturity to understand that being right and being happy are two entirely different things. Don't argue needlessly or fixate on what you think is "wrong" with the other person, unless they're doing something self-destructive (but do read further for notes on self-destructive behaviors). Sometimes you just have to "let it be." I wish I actually understood what that meant when I first met my wife. It would've saved lots of anger and frustration.

5. Treat your neighbors the way you would want to be treated. Often easier said than done, nonetheless this is of utmost importance to the richness of the fabric of a society. When you're on a plane, train, or bus, put your phone down and talk to other people. Angry Birds, Twitter, or whatever the "in-thing" is these days is not more important than the person sitting next to you. The ability to "shoot the shit" with whomever is sitting next to you, no matter how different you are from them, should be a required skill. If I'm sitting next to an engineer old enough to be my father, we'll talk about designing things with slide rules. If I'm sitting next to a punk rock girl, we'll talk about our favorite bands. Socialization is a skill sorely lacking in American society as of late. And no, texting is not "having a conversation" with someone. If you leave another person smiling next to you, mission accomplished. It also makes the time pass so fast you'll barely notice the misery of being trapped in the cargo hold of a commercial transport.

6. Don't take things that you haven't paid for. When it comes to people, don't take other people's wives / girlfriends / husbands / boyfriends. That little bit of wisdom is part of staying alive for those who value their own lives. What may be of trivial importance to you may mean everything to someone else. Sex may be fun for a half hour or so, and then there's the rest of life. If you haven't thought about what happens afterwards, then maybe you should.

7. Don't do drugs or hang out with people who do. You shouldn't hate / despise / look down upon other people with personal problems when they don't know how to resolve them in a constructive way, but you should also recognize self-destructive behavior as the major problem that it is. Misery loves company. Some forms of misery must be endured together, like it or not. This isn't one of them.

8. Give your time and/or money to charity as you are able to. This atheist still thinks it's good for the soul, even if done for entirely selfish reasons such as wanting to feel good about what you've done. Know that when you die, and you will die, no matter what you believe in your naive youth, you're not taking anything with you. The people you love and who love you are of far greater importance than whatever you manage to acquire in life. When I think back about the people I've known who have died, there is always something else I wish I'd said to them or done with them before they died. I can't recall being the slightest bit upset over giving a little bit of time or money.

That's about all you need to know to be successful in America. It's the simple things that bind us together, tear us apart, and make the world seem topsy turvy when we're really just lost in our own heads. If you're looking for a specific formula for success in life, there isn't one. You can emulate people who you think are successful, but ultimately you need to decide for yourself what success means. If maintaining your own sanity and having a couple of nickels to rub together when necessary is important to you, then you need to do those things listed above. How you do it is entirely up to you.

RobertDyck · 2017-12-12 03:08:13

I'm going to be blunt. First, what is "poverty"? Both my parents were pre-schoolers in the 1930s. They grew up on a farm with an outhouse, and a well that you pump by hand. They didn't have running water. Heat was from a coal-and-wood stove in the centre of the house. My mother describes her house as basically a garage with a lean-to extension. In winter she would wake up to find covers frozen to the bed. She would run to the stove to warm up. My father grew up on a more rich farm. My family bought a book describing the small town where my father grew up. That farm house was built by his grandfather in the 1890s; it was state-of-the-art for its day, and a relatively wealthy farm. But it was still a barn for cows, another connected barn for horses, and the farm house was directly attached. The house had one great room, a bedroom for parents, a root cellar for cold storage, and "summer kitchen" was an out-building. When he was older but still a child, his father (my grandfather) built a modern house. When I was a child we visited the farm for 2 weeks every summer. The old house was empty; so were both barns. The farm had a chicken coop and pig sty, but there were all empty. My great-grandfather built a mixed farm that could produce everything you need. It even had a 2.5 acre vegetable garden. But my grandfather converted it into a modern wheat farm. With tractor, combine harvester, etc. The vegetable garden was still used, but the farm didn't have any animals when I visited. The modern house had a large propane tank to fuel the furnace; a horizontal tank, I think 500 gallon. The house had a bathroom, but we were told to not use the toilet. Leave that for grandma. The septic tank could get full, so when grandchildren visited in summer, we were told to use the outhouse.

One reason I raise this is an issue in Canada has been northern aboriginal communities complaining they don't have any running water. Well, my parents didn't when they grew up. My parents bought a new house when I was in grade 8, a "bedroom community" just outside the city. That town was not connected to the city's aqueduct, each house had it's own well. It was a modern well, with an immersion pump. The house had running water, but when the house was built my parents had to pay a driller to drill a well down to the aquifer. My parents considered it part of the cost of the house, so why are these northern communities whinging to the federal government?

Still, what is poverty? Do you have central heat and running water? That's more than my parents when they grew up.

Specifically, "poverty in America". America has always had a culture of dog-eat-dog. It's supposed to be a land of opportunity, but you do have to work hard to get anything.

Terraformer · 2017-12-12 04:29:59

Are they talking about absolute poverty, or relative poverty? If you define the bottom 25% of the income distribution as poor, then of course the poor will always be with you., even if they aren't struggling to get by.

Housing, transport, food. The top three costs of living. Food is cheap, if you can cook. Housing and transport go together, but there's no reason why there can't be affordable family homes within walking distance to a railway station and everything else needed for daily living. If households can go car-less or at least car-lite, that's a big cost taken off their finances. That's how we've built cities for thousands of years, and it works.

SpaceNut · 2017-12-12 20:00:00

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_w … ted_States

2017 Hourly Minimum Wage $7.25 / hour
Weekly Minimum Wage1 $290.00 / 40-hr week
Yearly Minimum Wage2 $15,080.00 / year
Federal minimum wage Effective date
$2.90 January 1, 1979
$3.10    January 1, 1980
$3.35    January 1, 1981
$3.80 April 1, 1990
$4.25    April 1, 1991
$4.75 October 1, 1996
$5.15 September 1, 1997
$5.85 July 24, 2007
$6.55    July 24, 2008
$7.25    July 24, 2009

2016 Federal Poverty Guidelines
Household 100%    133%    150% 200% 250%    300% 400%
Size
1 $11,880 $15,800 $17,820 $23,760 $29,700 $35,640 $47,520
2 16,020    21,307 24,030    32,040 40,050 48,060 64,080

2017 Federal Poverty Guidelines
Household 100%    133%    150% 200% 250%    300% 400%
Size
1 $12,060 $16,040 $18,090 $24,120 $30,150 $36,180 $48,240
2 16,240    21,599 24,360    32,480 40,600 48,720 64,960

SpaceNut · 2017-12-12 20:25:57

https://aspe.hhs.gov/frequently-asked-q … nd-poverty

https://www.payingforseniorcare.com/lon … level.html

Many state programs that offer financial assistance to elderly or disabled individuals use the Federal Poverty Levels to calculate their annual or monthly income limits for program eligibility. State Medicaid programs also use these limits, or a percentage thereof, to determine eligibility for different constituent groups (such as the Aged, Blind or Disabled, Children Under 18 or Pregnant Women).

https://www.thebalance.com/federal-pove … rt-3305843

Agencies help families who earn more than the federal poverty level. For example, some programs offer subsidies to families that are 150 percent of the federal poverty level. For a household of four that would be 1.5 x $24,600 = $36,900.

fake level to which the state will say that they will help you even though you are starving....or need health care....

http://safetyweb.org/fpl.php

SpaceNut · 2017-12-12 22:10:45

The face of those that have slipped past being in poverty and directly into being Homeless...

America’s Homeless

Homes that might be habitats for those in survival mode....

There are those that are doing this even in the dead of winter here and other places where the snow flies....

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/homeless … ss-BBGjATk

SpaceNut · 2017-12-16 21:27:50

Report: Homelessness on the rise in NH

Sure will look different now that we have had snow

http://www.fosters.com/news/20171215/20 … -hampshire

The overall number of homeless people across the state rose by 11 percent in 2017, while the number of homeless families and students increased by 26 and 6 percent, respectively, according to a newly released report. Of the 1,456 individuals reported as experiencing homelessness in 2017, approximately 53 percent were single adults and 47 percent were persons in families with children, according to NHCEH.

http://home4hope.com/

https://www.dhhs.nh.gov/dcbcs/bhhs/shelter.htm

https://newhorizonsnh.org/programs/shelter/

Not every shelter or agency will give the basics for assistance when people need but here is just what some may provide.

Our shelter is available to homeless individuals 18-years-old and older. Shelter residents are required to sign in daily between 5:45 p.m. and 6:30 p.m, and the shelter can accommodate 63 men and 13 women in dormitory-style sleeping areas.
Dinner is served from 3:00 p.m – 3:30 p.m. for seniors and again from 4:30 p.m. – 5:30 p.m. Monday – Friday for others, including adults and families who do not reside at the shelter. Breakfast is available for shelter residents. There are also shower and laundry facilities on-site as well as case management and health related services.

https://hamptonnh.gov/wp-content/upload … elters.pdf

https://www.hud.gov/states/new_hampshire/homeless

So base money levels are only enough to feed and keep clothed with maybe enough for the monthly pay as you go cell phone and a bike other wise its really ruffing it.....

RobertDyck · 2017-12-16 22:32:38

During the "Occupy Movement", a group "occupied" the park near the provincial legislative building. They continued to camp in that park in downtown Winnipeg as fall started to turn to winter. There were concerns about safety as people in tents tried to provide heat to survive freezing temperatures. I did some research, suggested they insulate their tents with ComfortBatt insulation. It has the same insulation properties as fibreglass, but is made of rock wool with no binder so it's completely non-flammable. This means it's safe with a propane heater. So place this insulation between the tent and the tent-fly to keep heat in.

Last edited by RobertDyck (2018-01-07 14:27:13)

SpaceNut · 2017-12-17 19:57:01

I do remember the Occupy Wallstreet protests. I happened on this Pedal Power to the People! based on experiences during the 2011 Occupy movements.

Not many watts but enough to start....

It may be hard to believe that nearly 80% of all people living in third world countries have no access to electricity. That is an estimated 1.5 Billion people with no electricity. To which majority of people without energy being at or below the poverty line. I wonder what that percentage is for those in a home and homeless? Also how many have heat, running water, working toilets ect... for that same question?

It was 5"F this morning and warming up quite a bit during the day but now that night has come the temperatures are already down to 20"F at the time of this post.

CalvinSteen · 2017-12-18 08:47:52

SpaceNut wrote:

It may be hard to believe that nearly 80% of all people living in third world countries have no access to electricity. That is an estimated 1.5 Billion people with no electricity. To which majority of people without energy being at or below the poverty line. I wonder what that percentage is for those in a home and homeless? Also how many have heat, running water, working toilets ect... for that same question?

Tough questions to ponder each day.

SpaceNut · 2017-12-18 18:02:29

When a huricane, tornado and just plain powerful storm comes through an area those affected are just as poor at that point and not much better off than the homeless person....We are all roughing it then and need help....not all people are lazy they could just be on hard times without the means to make any changes....

CalvinSteen · 2017-12-19 09:56:40

I'd have to agree with you on that, SpaceNut.

SpaceNut · 2017-12-24 22:49:45

Here is an experiment to help with the Homeless U.K.'s Vending Machine for Homeless to Come to U.S. The charity plans to bring the machines—which dispense a variety of essentials from socks to fresh fruit—to the U.S. next year.

Action Hunger plans to bring its first U.S. machine to New York in February, and hopes to expand to locations in Seattle, Los Angeles, and San Francisco.
"We selected New York as it's one of the cities that has a particularly virulent issue with homelessness—it's one of the cities with the largest numbers of people experiencing homelessness in America," For their American machines, the charity has partnered with New York non-profit Rescuing Leftover Cuisine to supply items in the vending machine, and are also in talks with Tyson Foods,

Sounds to good to be true so far with giving to those that need the help... The machine provides basic necessities -- water, fresh fruit, sandwiches, socks, toiletries and books. And it's accessible all hours of the day, free of charge.

The machines work via a key card system, so not just anyone has access to the goods inside. Action Hunger partner organizations distribute the cards to homeless people who must check in once a week so that their cards continue working. Users are allowed to take only three items each day in an effort to limit their dependence on the machines. "We've tried to mitigate abuse of the card system as much as we can—the key-cards are highly trackable, and along with receiving a plethora of data, we can remotely disable access should we learn that a card has been lost or stolen,"

171128140208-01-action-hunger-vending-machine-exlarge-169.jpg

Well I have seen the EBT card misused and those have a pin for use and all you need is a frend that turns the credit of the card for food to cash for a rip off deal of the century....well not such a good deal for those that really are using them the correct way...

THE homeless population in the U.S. Around 76,500 people were homeless in New York City on a single night in 2017, according to the Department of Housing and Urban Development's most recent report.
https://www.hudexchange.info/resources/ … Part-1.pdf

Los Angeles, Seattle, and San Francisco were also among the top 10 cities with the most homeless individuals. The same HUD report revealed that in the U.S. in 2017, almost 554,000 people were homeless. The Guardian reported in November that over 300,000 people living in the United Kingdom were either reported as homeless or living in inadequate homes.

Action Hunger should have 25-30 machines in use by the end of 2018 in the UK. It dispenses water, fresh fruit, energy bars, crisps, chocolate and sandwiches, as well as socks, sanitary towels, antibacterial lotion, toothbrush and toothpaste packs, and books.

Dave_Duca · 2017-12-25 08:25:52

"Miscalculated Endorphin"....
.... pops to mind amongst this cacophony of critical thunking.

Pardon my Occam's Razor approach.
I don't fancy ad hoc hypotheses, when the answer sparks from a single celled stimulus.

Humans' have the absolute power of choice, that is cleverly distracted by clever capitalism,
and detracting our Mother of Invention.

Your indication is seen by watching a 7 year old.
The solution is how well the child is malleable to learning a trade.
Trends of normalcy will follow with a continued desire to learn.

Disturb the congenital endorphin by substituting competition for reason,
and we're left with indigence.

Dave
__________________________________________________
"What would James Slattin Martin Jr. do in this situation"?"

Last edited by Dave_Duca (2017-12-25 08:27:35)

RobertDyck · 2017-12-25 11:44:43

Many places have a food bank. In this city, an organization called Winnipeg Harvest organizes. They accept donations, distribute to local food banks (mostly run by churches), and register people. If someone needs assistance, they can phone Winnipeg Harvest to schedule an appointment a week or two in advance. The phone only works during working hours, weekdays, so working people will find it inconvenient. It's supposed to be for poor people in need. The phone is always busy, you have to call multiple times to get through, then you're on hold for 10 minutes to an hour. They don't verify your income, but do ask your provincial health insurance number. That's unique per person, so they can ensure no one registers more than once. When you go to the food bank, there's a line. They check that you are registered, and you have to show your provincial health insurance card. That verifies you live in the province, and that you are who you claim to be. Food banks are only open every second week, but each food bank has a different pickup day. All food banks get groceries from Winnipeg Harvest, the amount they get depends on how may people are registered to pick up that day, but most food banks augment what they get with donations. Some churches accept donations from gardens of parishioners, some from farmers, some have a deal with a local grocery store. When a large grocery store buys something that customers just don't buy, after sitting on the shelf too long they clear it out. When cans are dented or labels ripped or upside-down, but the can still sealed, these goods are donated. When fresh produce is close to expire. When bread or pastries are past day-old. All these things are donated to local food banks rather than throwing them out. A disturbing amount is still thrown out, but this is what food banks get. Food banks get what's dropped-off in a donation bin at a grocery store, but most of what people get is this other stuff. People receiving from a food bank get some really odd food, many times the first question is "what is this?"

There's also one organization in this city that provides used furniture, housewares, and clothing. It's completely free, and you can take as much as you can carry, but can only come once per month. Again you have to show your provincial health insurance card. People in need have to come to their building (only one in the city), and it's only open Monday-Friday 9am-1pm.

There are several community bicycle shops. You have to wait in like a couple hours, but it's free. They teach you how to repair your own bicycle, but bicycle mechanics show you how, and they have a fully equipped bicycle shop. They have used parts from donated bicycles they tore apart. None of the free parts are new, they're all used and worn. Sometimes they do have a few new things, these are available at low cost. Such as a bicycle tire or inner tube. If you need a new inner tube, typically you get a used patched one. May as well patch your own. They rebuild donated bicycles, which are sold at reasonable cost. This is how they raise funds to operate. All people there are volunteers.

These are all charities, they don't get any government funding. The reason I post this is the "vending machine for homeless" looks like a gimmick.

Last edited by RobertDyck (2017-12-25 22:51:03)

SpaceNut · 2017-12-25 22:12:16

Simular conditions for the use of food pantries, emergency food banks, Share fund food agencies, Community action offices, town welfare programs, to which some are only for the town that its in, some churches are well do a monthly food pantry, in all cases they are using the states poverty level charts and do a log of all pick ups by the registered person. Its typically a paper bag of about 6 or 7 cans of vegitables and canned fruit, a box of cereal, a box of pasta, a can of chunk tuna or chicken, sometimes the bag will have usda surplus foods within it, a local farm gives away eggs, other local stores give away other items...Its not much but a couple of meals but that's all it takes at the end of a month until you recieve more money in benefits, of one form or another...

Not many have bicycles but some do, most get help with emergency cell phones that have limited minutes but not all, many of those still in the cold and not using the shelters are coming into the laundry mats or stores to warm and some will have food plus to make use of the rest rooms ect....

The huricane recovery has been tough as well for many as there are still many trying to find answers...
Dark, desperate life without power in Puerto Rico

BBHl118.img?h=486&w=728&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f&x=2501&y=1838

Which brings me to something I am looking to build from simular work on windmill axial permanent power generator but making it for pedal power as they are for low RPM conditions.

Three days before Christmas, Doris Martinez and daughter Miriam Narvaez joined their neighbors in a line outside city hall in Morovis, a town of 30,000 people still living without electricity in the mountains of central Puerto Rico more than three months after Hurricane Maria battered the U.S. island.
They waited two hours under the searing sun for their twice-a-week handout — 24 bottles of water and a cardboard box filled with basic foods such as tortillas, canned vegetables and cereal.
A study conducted Dec. 11 by a group of local engineers estimated roughly 50 percent of the island's 3.3 million people remained without power. The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers has said it likely won't be until May that all of Puerto Rico is electrified.
Nearly 1,000 homes across Morovis lost their roofs and 90 percent of residents have not received federal assistance, Mayor Carmen Maldonado says. She expects it will be several more months before power returns to the entire town. Overall, more than 200,000 homes were damaged in Puerto Rico by the storm, whose destruction will cost an estimated $95 billion to repair.

The U.S. Small Business Administration announced that over $1 billion in low-interest disaster loans has been approved for Florida businesses and residents affected by Hurricane Irma. SBA made the disaster declaration on Sept.10, 2017, and in less than 100 days, 28,248 disaster loans have been approved in the amount of $1,009,238,100. Meanwhile, since August 2017, the SBA has approved more than $4 billion in disaster loans to 69,559 homeowners, renters and businesses affected by Hurricanes Harvey, Irma and Maria.

Texas Governor Abbott Receives Hurricane Recovery Updates, Presents Funds For Debris Removal

Hurricane Recovery, Superintendent Severances, Principal Workloads: The Top District Dossier Posts of 2017

SpaceNut · 2017-12-28 20:40:53

We are in for a weeks worth of Feb. teperatures of sub zero negative numbers with an even colder wind chill numbers.

Even my car was not startable today due to the ungaraged condition it is stored in.

My homes pipes have frozen even with the facets dripping.....

Tomorrow is pay day but its a 4 mile plus to any place to change our condition inside the home and very dangerous to walk in.....

Palomar7 · 2017-12-29 16:11:14

"U.N. Official Shocked at Poverty In Rural Alabama"

Could be replaced with "rural New Mexico."

I should have my husband (married nearly 25 years) post here about growing up, as a US-born Hispanic from a very poor home, seeing Mexican Nationals skating into USA and being showered with all sorts of "free goodies" while his parents worked hard in the fields. What fun it was, having to work - as a kid - to help pay for shoes, clothing, food ... while Mexican kids at school flaunted their better stuff (courtesy Uncle Sam).

Wanna bet it's the same in rural Alabama?

GW Johnson · 2017-12-29 18:22:19

Spacenut:

The secret to starting cars in cold weather without a heated garage or an electric plug-in block heater is twofold: (1) the thinnest available motor oil, and (2) the biggest battery that will possibly fit in the hole. For a 4-cylinder vehicle, 5W-30 and a 600 cold cranking amp battery worked barely OK down to -25 F cold soak for me. Not -30 F, but OK at -25 F. That was 1996, with a carbureted car.

Today, there is 0W-20 oil available today, and cold cranking amp ratings have increased for the same sizes since then. Fuel injection is easier to start than carbureted, unless you are really good with carbureted. I rather doubt it will get to -25 F there in New Hampshire.

If you are worried about coolant freeze protection, rich it up from the usual 50-50 mix to 63-37 concentrate to water, but NO FURTHER! That's best the ethylene glycols can do, and it gets you safely a little bit below -30 F. Probably not to -40 F. If you over-rich it too far, freezepoint actually rises.

There is one other thing you can do, but it's a bit of trouble. Take the battery out of the car and keep it inside the house overnight where it's warm. If you put it in the car quickly the next morning, it will have a whole lot more starting power before it can chill.

I may be a native Texas flatland boy, but I spent two record-setting winters in Minnesota, and taught automotive engineering technology there.

GW

Last edited by GW Johnson (2017-12-29 18:29:19)

SpaceNut · 2017-12-29 22:28:37

The actions you suggest have for the most part been done but not before the I suspect the gas line froze, I do have one of the high crack starting chargers to use and even that suggests that the timing that is off a bit is to far off forthe cold temperatures as it started ok when it was warmer....

So thanks you for the tips GW...it got down to -10 F last night and its expected to be colder for the next several days....

We were going to get a 2nd car for emergencies any how, so we have been saving for it and just had to make a chioce on another $1,000 clunker for now to get us by....was able to make a deal nearby and have the vehicle to help with the next issues of heat for the home tomorrow.

Will try to get the cellar warmer first with a wood burning box that has air furnace blower attached to it tomorrow but as tried last year it really does no do well for heat as needed and uses lots of power....

Things will get better but it will take some time....

SpaceNut · 2017-12-29 22:40:40

Palomar7 rural new england is not much that different as growing up in the 60-70'S from age 8 - 14 we worked the blueberry fields raking and apple orchards picking for our own extra money by the 50 cent bushel for the things that were beyond the economics of the times for our parents.... by 15 I worked summers at an all service gas station pumping gas evenings until close alone for a couple years at $2.75 hr and then finally in the lumber mill picking from the plainer shot to lay them into piles with stickens per course until the orders linear feet were had. Then banding them with steel straps to be lofted out by the fork lift driver before doing it all again.

SpaceNut · 2017-12-30 20:52:16

This is poverty when the wages you could be less than a welfare recipient

Total welfare benefits package: $29,817
Pre-tax wage equivalent: $28,670
Hourly wage equivalent: $13.78
State hourly minimum wage for 2017: $7.25

GW Johnson · 2017-12-31 13:29:30

Spacenut:

Gas line freeze has nothing to do with gasoline, and everything to do with water bottoms in your tank. Water gets into the narrow line, and can freeze there, stopping up the line. Gasoline itself is still liquid at -100 F or colder. Varies with batch and blend, but DC-3's used to fly routinely in the 1950's with avgas over the Antarctic in air temperatures as cold as -130 F. Or worse.

The easiest way to fix this is run the tank down very low, put fresh fuel into the tank, and add about 5-10% absolutely-dry ethanol to the mix (in addition to the 5-10% that is already in the fuel). That should enable the water to dissolve back into the fuel. Burn that tank out as soon as you can.

"Dry" ethanol means 0.5% or less water. Preferably less than 0.5%, closer to 0.2%. The azeotrope is a full 5% water, that's too wet.

From that point on, keep the tank close to full in cold weather. The smaller air space breathes a smaller volume during the diurnal temperature cycle. That limits the input of humidity to the tank.

This is less of a problem with modern 5-10% ethanol fuels now, compared to the older no-ethanol gasolines of 3 decades ago. But it does still occur. It occurs more in cold wet weather with a low fuel level in the tank. They "breathe" too much for the small ethanol content in the fuel to absorb.

There were among the various "snake oils" gas treatments intended for gas line freeze. They never told you on the label what it really was: extremely dry ethanol.

The other gas treatments not intended for gas line freeze were just various blends of toluene and ethers for cleaning solvent action (they absorb no water and thus do nothing for gas line freeze). Which cleaning solvent action ethanol also has, just not as severe in effect.

Most of the modern unleaded regular-grade gasolines I have tested here in Texas are "up to 10% ethanol" (nominally an E-10), but usually test near 8% ethanol (really an E-8). I usually find about 1-2% water in the mix.

Check the auto parts stores for a gas line freeze treatment in a pint can or thereabouts. If one doesn't fix it, put 2 or even 3 in. It's worth it. Make sure the container is sealed when you buy it. Read the label, under today's labeling laws, it should list ethanol or maybe methanol as the main ingredient. Ethanol absorbs water out of gasoline better than methanol, though.

GW

Last edited by GW Johnson (2017-12-31 13:46:07)

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