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#1 2017-02-18 19:13:12

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 1,806

Recent Water on Mars

http://www.universetoday.com/133451/reg … attention/
http://www.bgr.in/news/study-confirms-p … cent-past/
http://www.india.com/news/life-on-mars- … y-1842349/

As far as I can tell they think salty liquid water was under the dunes possibly "In the recent past".
The thing is the location is towards the equator, and it is apparently supposed that ground ice was melted to cause the event.  It is also supposed that it might be possible that the impact or whatever triggered it might have started a hydrothermal event.

This is related, but suggests a situation where snow melt caused liquid water as recently as 200,000 years ago.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 … 075025.htm

To me these two news article suggest two things:
1) Their will be much effort to keep humans from landing on Mars before life is better searched for.
2) If humans go to Mars, the possibility of sufficient water on the equator should not be dismissed but investigated further.
3) In the process of terraforming Mars, indeed, the first goal is to cause it to snow again.  That will support minimal temporary streams, which will possibly be of a sufficient magnitude to create "Dry Valley Lakes", which would be the first biosphere of signifficance for transplanted Earth life.

Last edited by Void (2017-02-18 19:24:37)

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#2 2017-02-19 11:03:44

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 10,650

Re: Recent Water on Mars

What is the time scale for being called Recent?

Curiosity rover findings raise new questions about ancient environment on Mars

Yellowknife-e1486498551638.jpg

I find it interesting that Nasa is now including water name indicators on the images and maps....

This mosaic of images from Curiosity’s Mast Camera (Mastcam) shows geological members of the Yellowknife Bay formation and the sites where Curiosity drilled into the lowest-lying member, called Sheepbed, at targets “John Klein” and “Cumberland”. The scene has the Sheepbed mudstone in the foreground and rises up through Gillespie Lake member to the Point Lake outcrop.

This mosaic of images from Curiosity’s Mast Camera (Mastcam) shows geological members of the Yellowknife Bay formation and the sites where Curiosity drilled into the lowest-lying member, called Sheepbed, at targets “John Klein” and “Cumberland”. The scene has the Sheepbed mudstone in the foreground and rises up through Gillespie Lake member to the Point Lake outcrop.
Carbon dioxide dissolved in water combines with positively charged magnesium and ferrous iron ions to form carbonate minerals. Other minerals in the same rocks indicate that those ions were available. The other minerals found in the rock, such as magnetite and clay minerals, provide evidence that the ensuing conditions never became so acidic that the carbonates would have dissolved away.

So other than the ice being covered with dust there does not seem to be any means to keep the water in a liquid form after sometime 3.5 billion years ago.

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#3 2017-02-19 22:37:52

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 1,806

Re: Recent Water on Mars

As recently as 200,000 years, maybe in one case hundreds of years.


.............
Salty ground water:
The possible hundreds of years claim involves salty ground water under sand dunes.  Potentially initiated to melt by an impact, near the equator.  Possibly sustained by geological processes such as serpentization, where rock is "Rusted", by water.

In this case the important questions are is there icy water or salty water under the equator in places.   Such being released by an impactor, and possibly a chemical heating event initiated by an impactor.

http://dailycaller.com/2017/02/15/scien … -recently/

The scientists suspect that the dunes may have formed on Mars quite recently, potentially within a few hundred years.

Per your saying liquid water cannot exist since 3.5 billion years ago, no not true.  Liquid salty water at a cold temperature possible.
Do I believe that it was in the last few hundred years?  How would I really know?

But the important point was that there apparently was ground ice to melt on the equator by an impactor/geothermal process.

...........

[Fresh Water:]
The other issue was "Snow melt water as recently as 200,000 years ago".  This most likely would have been fresh water.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 … 075025.htm

After the ice age
Crater statistics allowed Andreas Johnsson and his co-authors to determine that the age of the crater to be approximately 200,000 years. This means that the crater was formed long after the most recent proposed ice age on Mars, which ended around 400,000 years ago.

It is more likely that the water has come from melting snow packs, when the conditions were favorable for snow formation. This is possible, since the orbital axis of Mars was more tilted in the past than it is today," says Andreas Johnsson.

So, for this one they speculate on a different tilt of axis, as the cause of the ability for it to snow, and for the snow pack to make muddy flows.  If all the CO2 in the Martian ice caps were vaporized, then snow is possible on Mars.  If it were all vaporized, and average pressure of 11 mb might be present, if so, then under a snow pack with sunshine, melting to mud might be possible.

I would also speculate on volcanic eruptions and possible comet impacts, and perhaps even Methane emissions.

My opinion is that the Martian climate fluctuates to be better than it is now and worse than it is now.

Therefore in "Recent" times occasional circumstances where liquid water could exist.

This is important for the possibility of terraforming to the point of snow pack, and temporary streams.  That in turn might lead to ice covered lakes.

I have to tell you I am rather disappointed by the reply you gave to me.

Last edited by Void (2017-02-19 23:06:55)

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#4 2017-02-20 10:16:05

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 10,650

Re: Recent Water on Mars

You can speculate but its facts that rule....We have not gone to what is indicated as under cover of dirt and dust ice flows, we have not drilled into any salty water ice and seeing what we have for percolates its not likely to have any fresh water anywhere. I agree that the martian atmospheric pressure could have been higher and quite possible with solar to cause some of what we believe to be water flowing gulies, trenches, delta's ect... but we can not seem to find the smoking gun. We only have hints as to what has happened to mars with lots of speculations.

For any mars colony to suceed water is a must regardless of form but it does come at an energy cost as well as deliverable mass at this stage of the game. The less the amounts of water the higher the energy level that will be required to create it.

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#5 2017-02-21 04:33:08

elderflower
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Registered: 2016-06-19
Posts: 558

Re: Recent Water on Mars

We know where there is at least one huge deposit of hydrogen containing material on Mars. That would almost certainly be ice. What we must have next is a mission to sample it and find out what we need to do to extract and purify it so that it can be used to support manned exploration efforts.
I saw a proposal for a Red Dragon mission which would have drilling equipment in it. It was to have a sample return vehicle but I don't see this as necessary, remote analysis by on board equipment would be sufficient.

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#6 2017-02-21 09:27:47

GW Johnson
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From: McGregor, Texas USA
Registered: 2011-12-04
Posts: 2,712
Website

Re: Recent Water on Mars

Drilling can be a tricky thing.  Bits break,  pipe stem joints jam,  equipment wears quickly,  and exactly how much and what kind of drilling mud you use depends upon what's coming back up the hole. 

This is just not the sort of equipment that the crowd can do,  which put aluminum tires on Curiosity for driving in the sharp rock country.  I would be surprised if a robotic rig of any kind can drill successfully more than a meter or so.  We'll need 10's to 100's of meters,  at least. 

GW


GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

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#7 2017-02-22 07:01:12

elderflower
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Registered: 2016-06-19
Posts: 558

Re: Recent Water on Mars

If it is more than half a dozen metres below the surface, I suppose a drill could reach it only with an extendible drill string, but looking at the scalloped terrain pictures, I think it may not be that deep. If it is deeper you will indeed need a multisection, rotary drill and would require a human presence, but that is putting the cart before the horse. We need to prove the resource before we put people there who may depend on it.
Perhaps the idea of bombarding it from orbit might work. I posted about that some time back. The supposed water deposit is so extensive it would be difficult to miss it.
What if it is actually methane hydrate and not just H2O?

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#8 2017-02-22 08:24:10

Terraformer
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From: Lancashire
Registered: 2007-08-27
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Re: Recent Water on Mars

If it's methane hydrate, wouldn't that be much more interesting, given that the methane would most likely come from lifeforms?


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#9 2017-02-22 20:09:20

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 10,650

Re: Recent Water on Mars

With the some what seasonal methane releases that have been observed then this is also a probable for subliming from under the dirt and dust covered glacier areas.

So we may have other component mixes with water other than just contaminants....

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#10 2017-03-25 15:03:11

GW Johnson
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From: McGregor, Texas USA
Registered: 2011-12-04
Posts: 2,712
Website

Re: Recent Water on Mars

This is a funny.  Enjoy.  --  GW
image01213.jpg


GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

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#11 2017-03-25 19:24:18

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 10,650

Re: Recent Water on Mars

Horay... excellent and its not even cloudy, mineralized with rust ect....Its a very expensive glass thou....Import tax must be huge.....

Gulp! Water increasingly unaffordable for many Americans

Water may soon become a luxury item for millions of American families.

Although it’s a resource that most consumers take for granted, water is already unaffordable for one of 10 U.S. households, a share that’s forecast to triple to more than 30 percent of within five years, according to recent research from Michigan State University. Since there are no federal regulations either guaranteeing a citizen’s right to water or water affordability, some people may be faced with tough choices about how to pay their utilities as prices continue to climb. “For lower-income households, it could mean having your water turned off,” While various measures exist for water affordability, Mack relied on a threshold set by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency under which people shouldn’t pay more than 4.5 percent of household income on water and wastewater bills.

With drought stricken area being hit hard with this issue...

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#12 2017-03-26 09:53:36

GW Johnson
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From: McGregor, Texas USA
Registered: 2011-12-04
Posts: 2,712
Website

Re: Recent Water on Mars

I live in Texas.  We routinely alternate between drought and flood.  The climate average here is nonsense:  it is never average,  it is always one extreme or the other.  You get used to it. 

We used to laugh about Californians coming here and getting scared by our tornadoes,  and going home because they preferred the earthquakes we never had.  Now we are starting to have those as well,  in those places where deep-well disposal of used frack fluids gets a little too enthusiastic. 

I myself have seen dust devils with wind speeds equivalent to an F1 tornado.  A sheet of 1-inch plywood that is 8 ft by 12 feet looks awfully small at 2000 feet up,  flying in one of those giant dust devils.  Saw that on the construction site where DFW airport is today.  All that dark clay dirt exposed to summer sun generated the heat to power such huge dust devils (it was 115 F in the shade on site when I saw it,  versus 102-104 F in Dallas and Ft. Worth that day). 

GW

Last edited by GW Johnson (2017-03-26 09:55:17)


GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

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#13 2017-03-26 17:18:50

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 10,650

Re: Recent Water on Mars

ya it was a long time ago but Impact crater linked to Martian tsunamis

_89740942_water_on_mars.jpg

We have talked about a simular looking creater I think it splous or splosh ...where it has the round rim...

The team believe an asteroid triggered 150m-high waves when it plunged into an ocean thought to have existed on northern Mars three billion years ago.

This terrain has previously been interpreted as having been caused by mud flows, mud volcanoes, or glaciers.

Ya that is a wave for sure....and just maybe that water froze and is covered by lots of soil.....

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#14 2017-03-27 12:07:15

elderflower
Member
Registered: 2016-06-19
Posts: 558

Re: Recent Water on Mars

With enough soil on top of the water and enough salt, we may expect to find liquid water, as brine, at depth, below a layer of ice. I wouldn't like to guess at what depth.
Also, with a thick layer of soil to insulate it, ice may be preserved under volcanic deposits, whence it might escape later as massive floods.

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#15 2017-03-27 17:45:47

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 10,650

Re: Recent Water on Mars

I do not think that mars ever had much fresh water ever and if it did it was short lived...it would have had the freeze temperature but it would needed to settle out of solution quite quickly rising to the top to form the ice cap before being covered by dust and soil....

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#16 2017-11-21 22:14:09

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 10,650

Re: Recent Water on Mars

Flows of 'water' on Mars may actually be sand, study says

Ooh say is not so....

BBFpT3j.img?h=410&w=728&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f&x=468&y=385

Those dark streaks may be the result of granular flows like sand and dust, according to a study published Monday in the journal Nature Geoscience.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41561-017-0012-5

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#17 2017-11-22 01:26:31

louis
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From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 2,681

Re: Recent Water on Mars

The problem I have with a lot of this coverage is that multiple satellite surveys have shown there to be water present in some form across the planet. I think it is reasonable to suppose the water is present as permafrost of ice particles bound up the dust.  I am not convinced NASA tells us everything about their discoveries on the surface. If there isn't water easily available where are the survey signals coming from?


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#18 2017-11-22 04:17:32

elderflower
Member
Registered: 2016-06-19
Posts: 558

Re: Recent Water on Mars

If the dust is bound together with ice and that ice sublimes due to seasonal solar warming the dust will then be free to flow down slope. These lineae are then still down to water held in the regolith. Same applies if the water is liquid with antifreeze salts and it evaporates, although you would then get salt deposits which might inhibit sand movement, or enable it, depending on how it is precipitated.
On the satellite surveys: what they show is the presence of Hydrogen. The assumption is made that this is due to water. It might be due to hydrocarbons, ammonia or anything else that comes with Hydrogen . I don't think either of these is necessarily likely, but there is a chance that some could be in the form of methane clathrate.

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