You are not logged in.
Does anybody have any idea what the most ambitious ideas on the terraforming of Mars are?
Ex Astra, Scienta
Offline
rapid terraforming ... how rapid exactly ?
everybody agree on a massive PFC production to compensate the lack of CO2 but, how are we gonna be able to produce these perfluorocarbon and when ? even some ppm of PFC in the atmosphere represent millions of tons to produce.
I suggest that the molecular biologists work to create an organism able to produce some form of PFC and to survive in the harsh martian conditions. It Looks difficult given that the fluor is not a friendly atom but we have been already surprised by forms of life who live where nothing "should live".
Offline
Good point dickbill, I think genetically engineered plants and animals will play a major role in a Mars which is being terraformed. I once spoke of oceans full of genetically engineered plants (my original ideas for terraformation included the oceans almost exclusively- I never did the math though), but if we could have mosses or fast growing lichen which emit PFCs, we could have something there. Problem is, do PFCs released at ground level really make it intp the upper atmosphere efficiently?
Some useful links while MER are active. [url=http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/home/index.html]Offical site[/url] [url=http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/MM_NTV_Web.html]NASA TV[/url] [url=http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/mer2004/]JPL MER2004[/url] [url=http://www.spaceflightnow.com/mars/mera/statustextonly.html]Text feed[/url]
--------
The amount of solar radiation reaching the surface of the earth totals some 3.9 million exajoules a year.
Offline
Problem is, do PFCs released at ground level really make it intp the upper atmosphere efficiently?
I think so, the atmosphere is so thin that any gaz molecule should try to expand to fill the maximum available volume. Plus, since that putative "PFC containing" gas is supposed to warm up, it is supposed to expand even more easily.
The recent H2/methane CH4 producing bacteria which has been discovered recently could be a base to devellop these "PFC producing" modified organisms. The CH4 is easily substituted by fluor if I remember well my organic chemistry courses, once CH3F is produced, the reaction continues until CF4 in presence of Fluor.
The modified bacteria could then be incorporated in an artificial lichen symbiont able to whisthand the cold.
That's science fiction, but not more than talking about building hundreds of CF4 factories on Mars.
I think that like in the past, certain technical achievement becomes realisable only when certain technologies are present, sometimes by chance. This is the case for the biotechnology, it makes terraforming realisable, I hope so.
Offline
Rapid as in within two to ten centuries.
Ex Astra, Scienta
Offline
Rapid as in within two to ten centuries.
10 centuries ! some here will say it's a piece of cake. By that time, we all hope to go skying on olympus mons.
hmmm, I forgot that in 10 years, we might actually be back in the stone age or sort of, since a nuclear conflict become less and less improbable.
Offline
*What was that chapter of _The Martian Chronicles_? A man plants tree seedlings and the next morning he awakens to a forest erupting from the ground...and promptly faints? :;):
Would that be fast enough for you? :laugh:
--Cindy
We all know [i]those[/i] Venusians: Doing their hair in shock waves, smoking electrical coronas, wearing Van Allen belts and resting their tiny elbows on a Geiger counter...
--John Sladek (The New Apocrypha)
Offline
Youse guys're so eager to louse-up Mars, even before we get there! That's all we need: Hungry bugs introduced by youse, t'make life on Mars even more hellish 'n it already is. Keep yer cotton-pickin' hands off, see? until we get there, so's ya'll know what the heck yer doin'...get me?
Hey, it was just a question: what was the fastest way to terraform, in 1 to 10 centuries. Actually 10 century is not very fast.
We are not going to destroy Mars just because we go there anyway.
Now if you prefer, we could ask: what the best way to go and live on Mars without terraforming for 10 centuries ? this topic has been discussed already and if I remember well, it was said that we cannot go to Mars without terraforming, for a so long period of time.
Offline
A lifetime in pressurized ravines, without terraforming, would seem reasonable....
Offline
A lifetime in pressurized ravines, without terraforming, would seem reasonable....
*Pressurized RAVINES? Please. Okay, I know I'm responding from an Earth-bound bias and that humans are incredibly adaptable...but I honestly can't imagine that people always cooped up either by a pressurized enclosed space or space suit would be happy about it, or that it would be beneficial to them.
Of course, I could be wrong. But I don't know...always being confined in one form or another ::shudders::
Ah well.
--Cindy
We all know [i]those[/i] Venusians: Doing their hair in shock waves, smoking electrical coronas, wearing Van Allen belts and resting their tiny elbows on a Geiger counter...
--John Sladek (The New Apocrypha)
Offline
Although I can't remember the last time I was in one, a large shopping mall on earth can be a very artificial environment, and at least at one time, a lot of people seemed to enjoy going to them.
Would it really absolutely have to be different in an enclosed environment on Mars?
Rex G. Carnes
Rex G. Carnes
If the Meek Inherit the Earth, Where Do All the Bold Go?
Offline
Terraforming will happen solwly. With time, and experience.
If it takes anything longer than a generation, than that means you will have to contend with casuing havoc to people's home.
To prove a point, what is your 'gut' reaction if I told you we have a plan to change the earth aveage tempt by slamming an ice asteroid into it? (say it was possible)
Most people would say I'm nuts, and then promptly take away whatever is i have that might do what I say I can do.
If people start *living* on mars, they will look at changing their *planet* as a very serious proposition.
You don't just slam a comet into your home unless you know *exactly* what is going to happen.
Hell, even if they could create a breatheable atmosphere, that is a far cry from creating a sustainable, self-regulating *eco-system*.
The first generations will learn how to create small stable environments. Later generations will learn how to manage the interplay of large eco-systems.
Then someone will find a moon, and try out a theory.
How do you reasonably unleash a flood if it could destroy thousands of colonists habitats? How do you prepare for that?
Offline
I agree with both Cindy and Mr Carnes. I think it would be acceptable to live in big domes of the size of a small village, 2 0r 300 meters diameter, as long as there is some green stuff inside, like a parc with a pool, but I also would like to be ouside without a 200 kg suit. We said that already, i know.
About terraformation, nobody has commented much my "microwaving Mars", I guess because it's not techniqually relevant, but if it was possible, admitidly it would be a drastic way to terraform. I am sure the "anti terraforming" guys would hate that even more than the giant orbiting mirrors. I agree with them actually, I prefer much more a slower terraforming method, something you can follow over generations and enjoy as the "grand oeuvre" of Mars. Like the cathedrals, it often took more than one generation to build these marvels. The ones who shaped the first stones never saw the final "oeuvre", however there faith and commitment were not less than the one who put the final stone.
Offline
Cindy: When I refer to pressurized ravines...have you really studied the amount of them, not to mention the canyons, and their depths below "zero level" that should make their adequate pressurization relatively easy. Hardly confining... but admittedly, "going out" will for sure have a different connotation for Martians than Earthians. The ability to fly human-powered aircraft in the pressurized enclosures, I find intrigueing since, I (blush) am an enthusiastic glider pilot.
Offline
I would agree with dickbill: if there was enough space and beautification, people would be fine living in huge pressurized domes. Brick buildings could be built inside, to make it more like "home."
Domes could be connected with tunnels, and networks of domes could form cities. Domes could even be specialized: agriculture, shops, homes, industry, etc. Homes and shops (malls, etc.) might be in the same or adjacent domes, while industry could be in domes far away. Maybe maglev trains could transport people between cities, and to (relatively) far away domes. This would let people in the residential area work far away in the industry dome, while getting there quickly.
Now, I have a question. Could vents for smoke, fumes, etc. be built in? Any design possibilities that let wastes be sent out of the dome?
Offline
Beautification will always be the last thing we do, and wouldn't use much resources, everything else would be pragmatic. You're not going to be growing all sorts of pretty plants unless you have the water and light to feed them. Think about here on Earth, you don't see people growing lawns in the desert, even though they could do it if they wanted to.
And we may be surprised at how things which were once not beautiful become beautiful. The first iron ore will probably result in a few ?ugly? statues (we haven't figured out how to forge or cast yet, so our statues will likely be blobs), but only after we've determined that it wouldn't be useful (too many impurities, in fact, it's mostly slag). You're not going to see lots of pure titanium statues, especially not big ones.
BTW, waste wil be very minimal if non-existant. It shocks me that anyone can even think of wasting into the environemnt via smoke plumes. It's cheaper to recycle, period.
Some useful links while MER are active. [url=http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/home/index.html]Offical site[/url] [url=http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/MM_NTV_Web.html]NASA TV[/url] [url=http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/mer2004/]JPL MER2004[/url] [url=http://www.spaceflightnow.com/mars/mera/statustextonly.html]Text feed[/url]
--------
The amount of solar radiation reaching the surface of the earth totals some 3.9 million exajoules a year.
Offline
There is always waste generated by industrial processes, and it may actually be beneficial to vent it (to create a thicker atmosphere, as I've seen in some plans).
What I meant was more for the settlement phase, perhaps a central garden in each "neighborhood" and park areas, etc. For people to relax and feel at home-we need a familiarity to attract people to Mars, make them feel its not dead.
I don't think we'll use our first iron ore for statues. Forging techniques will be hammered out in our industrial applications before settlement even begins.
Offline
What kind of waste are we talking about here? Can you show that that waste would be more beneficial venting into the environment, than it would recycling it? Most waste would not be, and then, any waste that would be, would only be produced in small quantities (on the scale of things). Anything beneficial to the terraforming process will have to be intentional Domes and colonies exist to support people, so they wouldn't be efficient ?polluters,? factories or genetically engineered plants made explicitly to emit PFCs and so on, however, could be very efficient.
Sure, I agree that there would be gardens and stuff, I'm just saying that as we expand, we're going to have to take all of our resources into consideration. If a few Mars-ans decide they want to build a huge garden that consumes a whole lot of water, but the colony only produces so much and would be unable to support that garden, we all know it wouldn't be built and would in reality be one of the last factors to consider.
If you recall Red Mars, you might remember that they didn't get around to decorating for quite awhile, they just didn't have the time. We'd probably eventually have the time and energy to paint stuff and maybe build small structures, but huge, say, St. Louis-type Arches aren't happening any time soon.
Oh, and I certainly hope that we've hammered out our processes (dunno if that's possible, though, since the processes differ for every deposit in some way or another), but even then, we might want to use the useless slag for something to commerate our first smelting...
Some useful links while MER are active. [url=http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/home/index.html]Offical site[/url] [url=http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/MM_NTV_Web.html]NASA TV[/url] [url=http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/mer2004/]JPL MER2004[/url] [url=http://www.spaceflightnow.com/mars/mera/statustextonly.html]Text feed[/url]
--------
The amount of solar radiation reaching the surface of the earth totals some 3.9 million exajoules a year.
Offline
By "hammered" I meant we know how to do it. Look here on Earth, thousands of years ago, they had pretty much "hammered" out means of forging. Once you have a basic understanding, it's not hard to expand on.
If all of your factories don't produce pollution, you're not going to get much done. There are various gases produced in industrial reactions that are much better released as pollution than recycled (hot CO2, greenhouse gases, etc.)
And Mars has plenty of water. They don't have to "produce" any. Water is pretty good at recycling itself-photosynthesis releases water on its own.
Offline
I've been reading it...but right now, everything is theoretical. For all we know, by then we could have microns-thick super-teflon.
But I get your point-we have to be realistic.
Is it possible to pump ozone into the air to protect against sunlight?
Offline
Well, I know Mars has a thin ozone layer, I wasn't talking about into the breathing air, I meant into the atmosphere as a whole, to create a thicker ozone layer.
Offline
soph, what process produces hot CO2? And would it really be pollution? Where are we getting the CO2? On Earth, CO2 is considered pollution because we're taking it from fossil resources and releasing it into the atmosphere. Where does it come from on Mars? If it's gaseous, from the atmosphere, releasing it back out isn't pollution at all. If it's from some chemical process with the regolith or whatever, releasing it may be a good idea, but even then, since you've already got it in a contained form, you might be better off exploiting it to grow plants and so on (after absorbing the thermal radiation to keep the habs warm!). It'd be better, at least, than pumping in CO2 for the same reason and releasing that valuable thermal energy.
When I said that one must produce water, I explicitly meant that we'd wind up having to gather water by whatever means. There is a limit you know, to how much useable water you can hold. Oh, and this brings up a good point, releasing that water back to the dead Martian environment just makes it harder to get back into containment. Once you have it, keep it. Don't waste it.
Some useful links while MER are active. [url=http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/home/index.html]Offical site[/url] [url=http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/MM_NTV_Web.html]NASA TV[/url] [url=http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/mer2004/]JPL MER2004[/url] [url=http://www.spaceflightnow.com/mars/mera/statustextonly.html]Text feed[/url]
--------
The amount of solar radiation reaching the surface of the earth totals some 3.9 million exajoules a year.
Offline
Oh, BTW, BGD, domes are entirely possible, the numbers work as far as I know. You just need a crapload of Kevlar or other high density plastic. Zubrin talks about domes in length on his Case for Mars page.
Some useful links while MER are active. [url=http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/home/index.html]Offical site[/url] [url=http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/MM_NTV_Web.html]NASA TV[/url] [url=http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/mer2004/]JPL MER2004[/url] [url=http://www.spaceflightnow.com/mars/mera/statustextonly.html]Text feed[/url]
--------
The amount of solar radiation reaching the surface of the earth totals some 3.9 million exajoules a year.
Offline