Musk can't stay silent on governance forever...

louis · 2017-10-02 16:16:02

I think in the next few years we will see how good a politician Musk is. Anyone who wants to establish the first off-Earth human settlement on a planet that provides access to a few quadrillion dollars of resources is by definition or default a politician.

My point here is that Musk can't stay silent on governance for much longer. Space X begin construction of the Mars ship next year, but there has to be doubt whether they have begun construction of a viable governance model.

Seems to me there are a number of issues he has to square off:

1. Will the settlement operate under the terms of the Outer Space Treaty? I presume the answer is "yes". However, I have yet to hear him declare that.

2. What will be the involvement, if any, of the UN in this project. Will he keep the UN informed? Will he invite there comments. Does he consider Mars subject to UN treaties?

3. What will be the relationship between the Mars settlement and the USA. Will the USA have special privileges denied to other states of the world? Will the settlement be subject to US law on matters such as copyright?

4. Does he intend the settlement to be self-governing? If so, will that be from the outset? Will they be able to control Space X assets on Mars?

There are of course many related issues but I think these are the key ones which might come to the fore in the next few years.

I think that the closer we get to a real Mars project - and we are already getting damn close now - then the UN, China, Russia and others will begin to show interest and the green-eyed monster of jealousy will raise its ugly head. There will be stirrings.

Last edited by louis (2017-10-02 16:16:48)

IanM · 2017-10-03 06:27:10

Regarding your four points:
1) I would think so, at least to the extent that Mars is off-limits to any countries on Earth, and thus would be its own country.

2) In terms of governance, I don't think there would be any involvement of the UN, especially since it's mainly intended as a peacekeeping, rather than governing, organization. Then again, Mars could be the modern equivalent of the League of Nations mandates of old, but I think that would violate self-government and the right to self-determination for each nation that the UN itself cherishes.

3) Musk himself loves the US from what I understand, but I think most ties to the US would be informal. Perhaps Mars would be to the US what Canada, Australia, and New Zealand are to the UK. Maybe US Citizens would have the right to visa-free travel and indefinite stay/abode on Mars, and perhaps vice versa for Martian citizens, that other countries wouldn't. That, in turn, raises the point of what exactly the immigration and visa policy would be for the Red Planet. On a bit of a tangent, I would also assume that the US Dollar would be the currency of the planet, at least for the first few years.

4) It might be, and probably eventually will be, though I'm not sure it would be from the very beginning. Perhaps he would appoint a President/Governor General of sorts, with democracy growing as the settlement matures, much like again most of the former British colonies.

Terraformer · 2017-10-03 06:43:53

I doubt a Chinese colony would give rights to US citizens that other countries wouldn't have. If the American colonies wish to do so, though, that is their prerogative.

louis · 2017-10-03 08:20:45

Replying to your points, Ian:

1. That would be one interpretation but I think plenty of international lawyers would argue that the Treaty assumes no new country will be established on the planet - and certainly not one intimately connected with an existing Earth country, in this case the USA (although one could equally imagine the Chinese sending a few thousand model citizens to Mars to start up a kind of new Hong Kong, that would be Chinese territory in all but name).

2. I can't myself imagine that the UN will resist the temptation to interfere. It already has its own outer space office:

http://www.unoosa.org/

And they are already discussing Mars. COSPAR appears to be campaigning against Mars colonisation by humans.

https://www.cospar-assembly.org/

The treaty obligation not to contaminate Mars may well be used as a way of stifling settlement. I think there are a lot of scientists and a lot of UN people who want to turn Mars into a new Antarctic, with no exploitation of resources.

3. I think assuming that the US dollar will be the currency of the planet is a sure way of arousing suspicion all around Planet Earth! The point I am making is that the American legal system is very aggressive in declaring jurisdiction over things that happen all over planet Earth. If Space X is an American company, it is quite likely the US legal system will in effect claim jurisdiction over its activities on Mars, which I think does raise questions about whether the US is thereby claiming this territory for itself.

4. My view is that moving from Mission Commander, to Governor, to Governor with appointed advisory council, to Governor with elected advisory council, to Governor sharing separated powers with a legislative council, to a fully democratically elected President and legislative assembly is a good gradualist model that could be pursued over a 50 years timeline.

Finally, I don't really have a simple answer to the question of what Musk should say, it's just I doubt he can get away with saying nothing. If he can all well and good and I'll be proved wrong! But I think it is more likely that the closer and closer we get to the Mars Mission, the more opposition we will see to his plans.

IanM wrote:

Regarding your four points:
1) I would think so, at least to the extent that Mars is off-limits to any countries on Earth, and thus would be its own country.
2) In terms of governance, I don't think there would be any involvement of the UN, especially since it's mainly intended as a peacekeeping, rather than governing, organization. Then again, Mars could be the modern equivalent of the League of Nations mandates of old, but I think that would violate self-government and the right to self-determination for each nation that the UN itself cherishes.
3) Musk himself loves the US from what I understand, but I think most ties to the US would be informal. Perhaps Mars would be to the US what Canada, Australia, and New Zealand are to the UK. Maybe US Citizens would have the right to visa-free travel and indefinite stay/abode on Mars, and perhaps vice versa for Martian citizens, that other countries wouldn't. That, in turn, raises the point of what exactly the immigration and visa policy would be for the Red Planet. On a bit of a tangent, I would also assume that the US Dollar would be the currency of the planet, at least for the first few years.
4) It might be, and probably eventually will be, though I'm not sure it would be from the very beginning. Perhaps he would appoint a President/Governor General of sorts, with democracy growing as the settlement matures, much like again most of the former British colonies.

Last edited by louis (2017-10-03 08:21:13)

IanM · 2017-10-03 11:55:50

1) That is true, although as I feel Martian colonization is inevitable (as detailed below), some level of governmental organization will likewise be inevitable, and a country would be the best for that. I do agree that any country formed would be its own and not merely an extension of a Terran country, at least nominally. Mutually-assured backlash would likely prevent any country from expanding itself onto Mars.

2) That is also true, but if the US, Russia, and China each oppose what they feel would be as you say "interference" on the part of an organization that is quite pointedly not a government, they could perhaps use each of their veto power in the Security Council to sink it, though I am admittedly ignorant about the structure and workings of the UN. As for COSPAR and the treaty, I feel as if Martian colonization is inevitable because in the words of George Mallory, "it is there", and that the treaty would very likely be disregarded, at least initially, by those with the means to go to Mars. I do feel as if the treaty will be amended to make a distinction between space and celestial objects. I feel like humanity will collectively shoot itself in the foot if Mars, and especially other celestial objects, are treated as a new Antarctica.

3) That is a very interesting point. I simply assumed the Dollar would be the initial currency, before the planet is mature enough to decide its own monetary policy, because it is the most-traded currency on Earth, and given that Musk is Americentric. You do raise a good point about the US claiming Mars via an American company. If I'm not mistaken in history the United Kingdom took control of India from the British East India Company. I do perceive, however, that American influence globally is on the decline, so I'm not sure how it feels as if it can get away with a similar action a couple decades from now.

4) I agree to a large extent, and such a development mirrors the development of Commonwealth countries, although the ultimate fate of the company once full democracy/responsible government is obtained beats me.

To ultimately address your point about Musk, I'm not sure what really he <i>can</i> say given the political climate, without enraging at least some people. Perhaps he'll appoint the leadership of the first mission and let the government grow organically from there.

RobertDyck · 2017-10-03 12:45:58

I posted history of Newfoundland a few times. It's a proposal for Mars. Let me summarize.

In 1492 Columbus sailed the ocean blue. Ever wonder what happened between then and the Mayflower? When Columbus returned to Spain with wonders from the New World, an English explorer went to see what he could find. John Cabot sailed from England in 1495, hired 2 Icelandic guides and took a northern route. Had a labour dispute with ship crew, turned around and went home. He sailed again in 1496, discovered Newfoundland. He discovered a bay on a day in the Catholic calendar called "Saint John the Baptist Day" so he called it "St. John's Bay". That formed a natural harbour where ships could weather a storm. And he discovered the Grand Banks, the richest fishery in the world. He came back later that same summer, reported his findings. Fishermen from southwest England set sail for the Grand Banks right away. They built a fishing camp on the shores of St. John's Bay to process the fish, preserve them for transport to England. In 1497 they built a house for a caretaker, to ensure nothing happened to the fishing camp over winter. That camp became a town, the town became a city. That city is still there. St. John's is now the capital of the Canadian province of Newfoundland.

Later official government history claimed John Cabot discovered Newfoundland in 1497, but a letter from the son of John Cabot stated he was on the ship when they discovered St. John's Bay, and that was in 1496. I believe a letter from a first-hand witness.

St. John's was not founded by any government, it was not built as a colony. It was just businessmen. For over a hundred years they didn't have any government at all. This was the first European settlement in North America, at least since the Vikings. One letter describes St. John's and does not mention any street, another letter does describe a street. That street was "Water Street", and it's still part of the city of St. John's today. We don't know who built it or exactly when it was built, it must have been built between the dates of those two letters. That street dates before the Mayflower, before Roanoke or Jamestown, before any government colony.

Administration of St. John's was very simple. The captain of whatever ship arrived first that fishing season was governor for that season. His title was Fishing Admiral. Historically rule by fishing captains was far from ideal, but they built a city that still stands today. In 1997 the city of St. John's celebrated their 500th anniversary. That city dates their founding from the first house.

Large wooden ships with canvas sails, capable of sailing the deep ocean, and technology of navigation was developed for navy ships. It was used by commercial businessmen for fishing, in the 1490s it was still a relatively new technology. Yes, I'm creating an analogy to rockets. Both Christopher Columbus and John Cabot were explorers funded by governments: analogy to NASA. John Cabot discovered and documented profitable resources, as well as a safe place to live while harvesting that resource. Then government stayed out of the way while commercial businessmen established the first settlement in the new world.

I could list many government colonies that failed. Not only was St. John's decades before any government colony, it was successful while many government colonies failed. It was over a century after St. John's before a government colony succeeded.

In 1583 a British admiral took 3 navy ships, 2 frigates and one larger ship, to declare St. John's and 20 leagues inland was a colony of Britain. One of the frigates had committed piracy against a Portuguese fishing ship, so the fishing ships established a blockade to prevent the navy ships from entering the harbour. But 3 state-of-the-art navy ships of the most powerful navy of the day, against fishing ships? After a few days they got through. Carrying marines with military assault rifles of the day, they forced every business in St. John's to pay taxes. When returning to England, first one then a second ship had problems, had to stop for repairs. The last ship proceeded to cross the north Atlantic with the tax money, but mysteriously disappeared. Led by an admiral of the British navy, a veteran who crossed the north Atlantic many times. No one at the time believed that disappearance was just an act of nature. No one tried to collect taxes from St. John's for many years after that. England sent a governor to take control of St. John's in 1616. I'm sure a lot of people today would like to do that to the taxman.

Last edited by RobertDyck (2017-10-03 15:26:18)

louis · 2017-10-03 17:23:24

Regarding the currency, I don't think in these days of digital currency it would be that difficult to establish a Mars currency from the outset, if the will was there. No need for printing or coining. Everything can be done electronically, with accounts held on servers on Mars.

[Edited to add: for currency stability you could link the amount of currency issued to the amount of electricity generated on the planet every Mars year, if you wished. So, for x GWhs you have 100 Million Mars Currency Units in circulation and for 2x GWhs you have 200 Million Mars Currency Units in circulation, with perhaps a 10% leeway either way to fit Mars government economic policy - so between 180 and 220 million units in circulation on that basis. ]

IanM wrote:

3) That is a very interesting point. I simply assumed the Dollar would be the initial currency, before the planet is mature enough to decide its own monetary policy, because it is the most-traded currency on Earth, and given that Musk is Americentric. You do raise a good point about the US claiming Mars via an American company. If I'm not mistaken in history the United Kingdom took control of India from the British East India Company. I do perceive, however, that American influence globally is on the decline, so I'm not sure how it feels as if it can get away with a similar action a couple decades from now.

Last edited by louis (2017-10-03 18:30:37)

Excelsior · 2017-10-03 22:46:06

This is why it's so important for NASA to swallow it's pride, and make the BFR the core of its exploration, and ultimately colonization program. Putting the effort under NASA's banner allows us to pick international contributors that share our values and give the operation international legitimacy.

We simply can't give rival states the ultimate high ground and expect to survive long term.

louis · 2017-10-04 02:10:20

Well I think it cuts both ways. It may well bring on the UN agony as they see the USA via NASA establishing an identifiably "American" colony.

Excelsior wrote:

This is why it's so important for NASA to swallow it's pride, and make the BFR the core of its exploration, and ultimately colonization program. Putting the effort under NASA's banner allows us to pick international contributors that share our values and give the operation international legitimacy.
We simply can't give rival states the ultimate high ground and expect to survive long term.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-09-16 07:24:44

Ex-Girlfriend Grimes ‘wrongfully accused’ of throwing snowballs at Queen’s car?

she has this tumblr blog?

surrealist yuppie, urban faery,
aspiring warrior poet
CEO of Grimes Corp.
dolly parton fan
herbivore

Claire Elise Boucher known professionally as Grimes, is a Canadian musician, singer, songwriter, and record producer. Outside of music, Grimes had a voice role in the 2020 action role-playing video game Cyberpunk 2077 and is a judge on the music competition game show Alter Ego. In 2014, Boucher wrote a blog post expressing her aversion to hard drugs, distancing herself from her previous endorsement, saying she does not want "[hard drug use] to be part of [her] narrative"."Losing people to drugs and alcohol is the worst because they destroy any good memories you have of them before forcing you to deal with the empty space they leave behind. I want people to know that I hate hard drugs. All they've ever done is kill my friends and cause me to be unproductive."
https://web.archive.org/web/20140820134 … -the-worst

Grimes interrogated after accusations of throwing snowballs at Queen’s car
https://pagesix.com/2022/09/15/grimes-w … ueens-car/

Musk told Republicans at a GOP retreat the party should welcome immigrants and stay 'out of people's bedrooms,' report says
https://www.yahoo.com/news/elon-musk-to … 58460.html

$258 billion Dogecoin lawsuit expands
https://www.reuters.com/markets/us/elon … 022-09-07/

Elon Musk, Self-Professed Centrist, Speaks at MAGA Donor Event
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/p … t-1398216/

Iranian Woman Brain Dead After Being Arrested, Allegedly Beaten By Morality Police for not Wearing Hijab
https://www.ibtimes.sg/iranian-woman-br … ijab-66817

Elon Musk demands ex-Twitter product chief testify in takeover fight
https://www.business-standard.com/artic … 149_1.html

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-09-16 07:30:12)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-10-18 10:51:21

Must might be less active with political memes and opinions than he used to be but he still posts comment or opinions.

'Drone War I'

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1582379931983499264

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-10-29 10:26:29

Musk has become BigTech

Elon Musk Buys Twitter, Fires CEO And Top Executives
https://townflex.com/elon-musk-buys-twi … xecutives/

'Comedy is now legal on Twitter'
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1586104694421659648

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-10-29 10:28:06)

SpaceNut · 2022-10-29 11:56:02

Cleaning house out of spite seems to be a step that will open up the site to malware and other activity as the staff to keep it in check will now be placed into a mode of continual disbelief as to the content of hate and racism on slot just like Redit has become.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-03-10 08:16:30

Is Elon Musk Building A Trump “Freedom City?” No—It’s A Suburb.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/richardmcg … -a-suburb/

Maye Haldeman Musk a twin born in Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada

Very much involved in the Canadian technocracy movement party, it was a social movement active in the United States and Canada in the 1930s which favored technocracy as a system of government over representative democracy and concomitant partisan politics.

In a publication from 1938 Technocracy Inc. the main organization made the following statement in defining their proposal.

Technocracy is the science of social engineering, the scientific operation of the entire social mechanism to produce and distribute goods and services to the entire population of this continent. For the first time in human history it will be done as a scientific, technical, engineering problem. There will be no place for Politics or Politicians, Finance or Financiers, Rackets or Racketeers. Technocracy states that this method of operating the social mechanism of the North American Continent is now mandatory because we have passed from a state of actual scarcity into the present status of potential abundance in which we are now held to an artificial scarcity forced upon us in order to continue a Price System which can distribute goods only by means of a medium of exchange. Technocracy states that price and abundance are incompatible; the greater the abundance the smaller the price. In a real abundance there can be no price at all. Only by abandoning the interfering price control and substituting a scientific method of production and distribution can an abundance be achieved. Technocracy will distribute by means of a certificate of distribution available to every citizen from birth to death. The Technate will encompass the entire American Continent from Panama to the North Pole because the natural resources and the natural boundary of this area make it an independent, self-sustaining geographical unit.

https://archive.org/details/TheTechnocrat-September1937

Another archive from 1 year ago

'What is Technocracy'

https://archive.fo/ZsMwl

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-03-10 08:17:59)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-08-25 12:16:19

Kristen Clarke joined the NAACP Legal Defense and Educational Fund, where she co-led the political participation group and focused on voting rights and election law reform. Clarke opened an investigation into Boy Scouts to look at the national group's ban on openly gay transexual adults and alleged hiring rejections based on sexual orientation. Clarke secured settlements on religious loony kosher halal preacher loony rights. In early 2020, Clarke said that she was "deeply concerned that African American communities are being hardest hit by the COVID-19 pandemic, and that racial bias may be impacting the access they receive to testing and healthcare." Tucker Carlson and Fox News revealed a letter Clarke wrote to The Harvard Crimson as an undergraduate claiming that Blacks were Kangz types and had "superior physical and mental abilities" due to their higher levels of melanin, Jewish News Syndicate noted Clarke's role as leader of Harvard's Black Student Association in 1994 in inviting anti-Jewish anti-semitic conspiracy theorist professors as speakers. Joe Biden chose Clarke to head the U.S. Department of Justice Civil Rights Division.

Justice Department sues SpaceX over hiring practices

https://spacenews.com/justice-departmen … practices/

“Our investigation found that SpaceX failed to fairly consider or hire asylees and refugees because of their citizenship status and imposed what amounted to a ban on their hire regardless of their qualification, in violation of federal law,” said Assistant Attorney General Kristen Clarke of the Justice Department’s Civil Rights Division in a statement. “Our investigation also found that SpaceX recruiters and high-level officials took actions that actively discouraged asylees and refugees from seeking work opportunities at the company.”

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-08-25 12:26:07)

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#1 2017-10-02 16:16:02

Musk can't stay silent on governance forever...

#2 2017-10-03 06:27:10

Re: Musk can't stay silent on governance forever...

#3 2017-10-03 06:43:53

Re: Musk can't stay silent on governance forever...

#4 2017-10-03 08:20:45

Re: Musk can't stay silent on governance forever...

#5 2017-10-03 11:55:50

Re: Musk can't stay silent on governance forever...

#6 2017-10-03 12:45:58

Re: Musk can't stay silent on governance forever...

#7 2017-10-03 17:23:24

Re: Musk can't stay silent on governance forever...

#8 2017-10-03 22:46:06

Re: Musk can't stay silent on governance forever...

#9 2017-10-04 02:10:20

Re: Musk can't stay silent on governance forever...

#10 2022-09-16 07:24:44

Re: Musk can't stay silent on governance forever...

#11 2022-10-18 10:51:21

Re: Musk can't stay silent on governance forever...

#12 2022-10-29 10:26:29

Re: Musk can't stay silent on governance forever...

#13 2022-10-29 11:56:02

Re: Musk can't stay silent on governance forever...

#14 2023-03-10 08:16:30

Re: Musk can't stay silent on governance forever...

#15 2023-08-25 12:16:19

Re: Musk can't stay silent on governance forever...

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