Ice deposit on Mars holds as much water as Lake Superior, researchers

RobertDyck · 2017-06-10 12:42:51

http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/mars- … -1.3863841

An ice deposit with as much frozen water as the volume of Lake Superior has been found on Mars in a region astronauts may some day call home.
Using NASA's Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter, scientists performed more than 600 scans of Utopia Planitia, a mid-latitude region on the planet. The scans revealed an ice deposit that ranges in thickness from about 80 metres to 170 metres and is composed of about 50 to 85 per cent water. The rest is likely comprised of dust and rocky material.
"This deposit is probably more accessible than most water ice on Mars, because it is at a relatively low latitude and it lies in a flat, smooth area where landing a spacecraft would be easier than at some of the other areas with buried ice," Jack Holt of the University of Texas, a co-author of the study, said in a statement.
Recent studies suggest that billions of years ago Mars was home to a large ocean in its northern hemisphere, which may have made it potentially habitable.
The researchers believe the deposit was likely formed as a result of a snowfall that took place during that time. It eventually built up an ice sheet that was mixed with dust. At the current latitude, which spans 39 to 49 degrees, water is unable to exist at the surface, as it will change from a solid to a gas, a process called sublimation.
The newly discovered deposit is covered by a layer of dust believed to range in thickness from about one to 10 metres.
The deposit accounts for just one per cent of all known water ice on the red planet, but will help planetary scientists better understand the history of Mars.
"We know early Mars had enough liquid water on the surface for rivers and lakes," said Leslie Tamppari of NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in the statement. "Where did it go? Much of it left the planet from the top of the atmosphere … But there's also a large quantity that is now underground ice, and we want to keep learning more about that."

Actually, this article has a small error it claims liquid water cannot exist there now. But the triple point of water is 6.12 millibars = 612 Pascals. Current weather recorded by the Curiosity rover, as of 2017-06-08 pressure is 853 Pascals. Utopia Planetia is lower altitude than Gale Crater, so pressure should be a tiny bit more. That means liquid water can exist. At that pressure water will freeze at 0°C and boil at about 6°C, but salt can both reduce freezing temperature and increase boiling temperature a couple degrees. So although liquid water will not exist for long, it can exist.

Mars weather reported by Curiosity

boiling temperature at various pressures

So a suitable location on Utopia Planetia.

Last edited by RobertDyck (2017-06-10 18:38:45)

louis · 2017-06-10 17:43:13

Interesting stuff. The evidence for water being easily accessible just grows and grows. If it can stay liquid for a while, might make collection easier, but digging up chunks of icy regolith might be just as easy.

I still face Chryse Planitia for the first landing. Water concentration in the regolith is about 6% there. As long as it's all around you doesn't much matter, would be my view.

RobertDyck wrote:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/mars- … -1.3863841
An ice deposit with as much frozen water as the volume of Lake Superior has been found on Mars in a region astronauts may some day call home.
Using NASA's Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter, scientists performed more than 600 scans of Utopia Planitia, a mid-latitude region on the planet. The scans revealed an ice deposit that ranges in thickness from about 80 metres to 170 metres and is composed of about 50 to 85 per cent water. The rest is likely comprised of dust and rocky material.
"This deposit is probably more accessible than most water ice on Mars, because it is at a relatively low latitude and it lies in a flat, smooth area where landing a spacecraft would be easier than at some of the other areas with buried ice," Jack Holt of the University of Texas, a co-author of the study, said in a statement.
Recent studies suggest that billions of years ago Mars was home to a large ocean in its northern hemisphere, which may have made it potentially habitable.
The researchers believe the deposit was likely formed as a result of a snowfall that took place during that time. It eventually built up an ice sheet that was mixed with dust. At the current latitude, which spans 39 to 49 degrees, water is unable to exist at the surface, as it will change from a solid to a gas, a process called sublimation.
The newly discovered deposit is covered by a layer of dust believed to range in thickness from about one to 10 metres.
The deposit accounts for just one per cent of all known water ice on the red planet, but will help planetary scientists better understand the history of Mars.
"We know early Mars had enough liquid water on the surface for rivers and lakes," said Leslie Tamppari of NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in the statement. "Where did it go? Much of it left the planet from the top of the atmosphere … But there's also a large quantity that is now underground ice, and we want to keep learning more about that."
Actually, this article has a small error it claims liquid water cannot exist there now. But the triple point of water is 6.12 millibars = 612 Pascals. Current weather recorded by the Curiosity rover, as of 2017-08-08 pressure is 853 Pascals. Utopia Planetia is lower altitude than Gale Crater, so pressure should be a tiny bit more. That means liquid water can exist. At that pressure water will freeze at 0°C and boil at about 6°C, but salt can both reduce freezing temperature and increase boiling temperature a couple degrees. So although liquid water will not exist for long, it can exist.
Mars weather reported by Curiosity
boiling temperature at various pressures
So a suitable location on Utopia Planetia.

GW Johnson · 2017-06-13 09:57:00

On stable water: rapid boiling occurs when total air pressure is less than water vapor pressure at the liquid pool temperature. Rapid evaporation without boiling occurs whenever the water vapor pressure in the atmosphere is less than the water vapor pressure at the liquid pool temperature. That second process occurs at a rate proportional to the difference in water vapor pressures. The first is driven by the quantity of available heat within the liquid.

On buried glaciers at landing site: simply required. Harvesting 50+% ice is far easier than 5%-or-less ice. The former can be drilled with steam extraction from one well, the latter requires a strip mining operation. The former is far easier, requiring less effort and less energy. The latter is very, very costly.

Such sites need a Red Dragon with a drill rig to determine burial depth for a safe landing. If the regolith cover is too thin, the landing jet blast will melt out a crater, converting a level field to a rough terrain, and very likely causing a crash. It may take more than one Red Dragon to find the right touchdown spot, unless you can figure out how to deploy a mobile rover drill rig from the one Red Dragon.

Just some practical things to think about.

GW

Last edited by GW Johnson (2017-06-13 09:58:24)

RobertDyck · 2017-06-13 10:41:02

In 2005 I attended the 4th Canadian Space Exploration Workshop, hosted by the Canadian Space Agency. The president of CSA at the time tried to push for a Canadian rover. He worked with a Canadian technology institute that specialized in mining technology. They demonstrated a dry drill, with 10 pipe segments each 1 metre long. The graphic was a rover about the size of Spirit or Opportunity that would carry this drill. He wanted to partner with a country that has a launch vehicle. But Canadian Parliament did not approve additional funding required for it. You don't need Red Dragon, it could land using the same technique as Spirit or Opportunity. If you want to get fancy, you could use a skycrane like Curiosity instead of bounce-and-roll.

Last edited by RobertDyck (2017-06-14 03:32:42)

GW Johnson · 2017-06-13 14:27:17

Hi RobertDyck:

What you say about Red Dragon is true. Such a rover does not need a capsule to land. But Red Dragon will soon exist, and nothing else will anytime soon.

I say that because Spacex wanted to start sending Red Dragons to Mars next year, but has had to delay that to the 2020 opposition for reasons of catching up on primary business.

Everybody else has lander concepts entirely undeveloped, or at least requiring major reworrk from something used before. Even the Curiosity skycrane thing would require rework, because every rover is different. Red Dragon is almost there, because of cargo Dragon and crew Dragon.

There ought to be room for some sort of rover inside such a spacious capsule, and if about 1-2 tons, within its capacity to enter and propulsively land. The normal hatchway is wrong to get a rover out, but that could be fixed with clever positioning and installation of detonation cord. Chain a couple of the cut panels to use as ramps after they fall away, and just drive off the capsule floor. That sort of thing is a short demo program to do right here on Earth.

My guess is that Spacex has already looked at this, and has some ideas in their back pockets already. They just haven't told anyone yet.

GW

Last edited by GW Johnson (2017-06-13 14:28:36)

louis · 2017-06-14 05:56:14

I agree, GW. People constantly underestimate Space X. Musk thinks through a problem from all angles and often opts for simple if somewhat brute force solutions.

On a related topic, it's interesting that Musk wants to revolutionise tunnel boring on Earth - he sees this as a way of dealing with problems of urban transportation. You can see how he really brings everything together... An electric car needs efficient batteries. Efficient batteries help solar. Solar plus batteries can power homes. Solar plus efficient batteries can also power bases on Mars. Transportation tunnels under cities are less challenging if you are using electic vehicles that don't emit poisonous fumes. More efficient tunnelling will make them more doable. But more efficient tunnelling on Mars can also be used to create living and other spaces protected from radiation. It all fits together!

GW Johnson wrote:

Hi RobertDyck:
What you say about Red Dragon is true. Such a rover does not need a capsule to land. But Red Dragon will soon exist, and nothing else will anytime soon.
I say that because Spacex wanted to start sending Red Dragons to Mars next year, but has had to delay that to the 2020 opposition for reasons of catching up on primary business.
Everybody else has lander concepts entirely undeveloped, or at least requiring major reworrk from something used before. Even the Curiosity skycrane thing would require rework, because every rover is different. Red Dragon is almost there, because of cargo Dragon and crew Dragon.
There ought to be room for some sort of rover inside such a spacious capsule, and if about 1-2 tons, within its capacity to enter and propulsively land. The normal hatchway is wrong to get a rover out, but that could be fixed with clever positioning and installation of detonation cord. Chain a couple of the cut panels to use as ramps after they fall away, and just drive off the capsule floor. That sort of thing is a short demo program to do right here on Earth.
My guess is that Spacex has already looked at this, and has some ideas in their back pockets already. They just haven't told anyone yet.
GW

RobertDyck · 2017-06-14 08:11:37

One novel by Robert A. Heinlein claimed they "discovered how to apply nuclear technology to make tunnels". Supersonic passenger trains in tunnels between states/provinces, and beneath the ocean. He didn't bother describing how, it was just done. Not sure, but I think it was the book "Friday".

So how is Elon changing tunnel boring?

GW Johnson · 2017-06-15 12:16:45

As near as I can tell, he has a boring machine that bores a bit faster. He wants to alleviate surface traffic congestion by creating high speed roads in tunnels underground. May also relate to his hyperloop proposals, although not integral to them. I saw nothing to suggest a breakthrough in boring speed, just a possibly better boring machine. News releases date back to mid May this year.

GW

elderflower · 2017-06-16 04:46:05

Choice of TBM design kind of depends on what you want to tunnel through, how deep you need to go and whether there is free water in the strata.
For cheap tunnels cut and cover is good, except where there are existing structures.

SpaceNut · 2019-11-23 21:42:41

Glaciers as landscape sculptors - the mesas of Deuteronilus Mensae

marsexpress-dlr-remnants-glaciations-deuteronilus-mensae-hg.jpg

Similarly, glaciers and ice ages have also shaped the Martian landscape.

https://www.dlr.de/content/en/articles/ … ptors.html

SpaceNut · 2020-03-02 21:18:15

So few posts for such an important plus critical for mans survival item to find insitu on mars. Its also import to get Nasa to actually do more than echo radar signals at the ground as we need real digging of the ground to prove what the measurement might mean. SHARAD operates in the 15–25 MHz range, which determines its vertical resolution through different materials (15 m in free space, ~8 m in water ice).
Its the Gama spectrum that shows different levels of water and that makes it important to quantify what is real for the measuring device to be used.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utopia_Planitia is the area where a viking 2 unit did explore with the images of frost in the ealy morning was captured for all to see.

https://www.planetary.org/blogs/guest-b … -mars.html

SpaceNut · 2020-12-21 19:30:54

seems we are going to get a mission to nail the quantities of water ice down NASA honing plans for its Mars Ice Mapper mission

https://www.space.com/nasa-2021-budget- … -mars.html

Details remain scarce, but NASA officials offered a little more insight into the mission's origins and goals during a meeting held last month, calling Mars Ice Mapper an attempt to take advantage of a specific and unexpected opportunity with implications for a host of NASA priorities. "Mars Ice Mapper originates from the NASA agency-level objectives," Lori Glaze, director of the agency's Planetary Science Division, said during a meeting of NASA's Planetary Science Advisory Committee held virtually on Nov. 30. "Exploring Mars ice reserves emerged as a focusing requirement and thus a need, not only for the scientific value, but also in preparation for human exploration."
NASA got lucky: the Canadian Space Agency (CSA) revealed that it was interested in providing a synthetic aperture radar instrument to a Mars orbiter. This technology uses a moving antenna and complex geometry to create detailed maps showing geologic activity and environmental changes, among other characteristics.
Such an instrument would not be the first radar capability orbiting the Red Planet: Both the European Mars Express spacecraft and NASA's Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter carry shallow radar instruments.
If Mars Ice Mapper does indeed begin studying the Red Planet later this decade, the mission would fill that gap while offering both scientists and would-be Mars visitors valuable information. "There have been lots of studies that have identified near-surface ice — that is, the top 10 meters [33 feet] — as critical both for science as well as preparing for human exploration," Ianson said. "It can tell us a lot about astrobiology, geologic and climate history and modern processes."
In addition to the ice-mapping satellite itself, the mission could prompt the deployment of new communications satellites built by commercial companies to Mars orbit. These companions would not be required for the Mars Ice Mapper itself to succeed but would address the general shortage of communications support for Mars missions, Ianson added, and is a project that the agency believes would interest commercial partners.

Only thing left is to drill to get an on the ground verification of what is detected....

Void · 2020-12-22 14:38:39

I think that something should be considered for Starship.
We have the concept of one that delivers cargo, that apparently waits for people to arrive and unload it.
We have to concept of a people mover Starship.

I think maybe a Starship with robots should be given a consideration. Also one with nuclear power.
I have been thinking about it. It needs some work.

Done.

tahanson43206 · 2024-01-19 13:03:53

This topic by RobertDyck is one of many that contain the word "water" in the title ...

I am hoping this topic is a good fit for the announcment that showed up in the Internet feed today:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/water-ice-bu … 00873.html

Space
Water ice buried at Mars' equator is over 2 miles thick
Keith Cooper
Thu, January 18, 2024 at 9:00 AM EST·5 min read
91
A black-and-white map of mars with blue sections denoting where water ice has been detected.
A European Space Agency (ESA) probe has found enough water to cover Mars in an ocean between 4.9 and 8.9 feet (1.5 and 2.7 meters) deep, buried in the form of dusty ice beneath the planet's equator.
The finding was made by ESA's Mars Express mission, a veteran spacecraft that has been engaged in science operations around Mars for 20 years now. While it's not the first time that evidence for ice has been found near the Red Planet's equator, this new discovery is by far the largest amount of water ice detected there so far and appears to match previous discoveries of frozen water on Mars.
"Excitingly, the radar signals match what we expect to see from layered ice and are similar to the signals we see from Mars' polar caps, which we know to be very ice rich," said lead researcher Thomas Watters of the Smithsonian Institution in the United States in an ESA statement.
The deposits are thick, extended 3.7km (2.3) miles underground, and topped by a crust of hardened ash and dry dust hundreds of meters thick. The ice is not a pure block but is heavily contaminated by dust. While its presence near the equator is a location more easily accessible to future crewed missions, being buried so deep means that accessing the water-ice would be difficult.
Some 15 years ago, Mars Express detected deposits beneath a geological formation called the Medusae Fossae Formation (MFF), but scientists were not sure what those deposits consisted of. Mars' geography is split between northern highlands and southern lowlands, and the huge 5,000-km-long MMF is situated near the boundary between the two.
It is suspected that the MMF itself formed within the past 3 billion years from lava flows and was covered in volcanic ash during an era long ago when Mars was volcanically active. Today, the MMF is covered in heaps of dust towering several kilometers high — it's actually the most plentiful source of dust on the entire planet, fuel for the giant dust storms that can engulf Mars on a seasonal basis. Were the deposits just dust, perhaps filling a deep valley?
large sand dunes in a black-and-white photograph
New observations by MARSIS, which is a subsurface radar on board Mars Express, now have the answer — and it's not dust.
"Given how deep it is, if the MFF was simply a giant pile of dust, we'd expect it to become compacted under its own weight," said Andrea Cicchetti of the National Institute for Astrophysics in Italy in a press statement. "This would create something far denser than what we actually see with MARSIS."
Instead, the deposits are low in density and fairly transparent to MARSIS' radar, which is exactly how one would expect water ice to appear in the data.
a graph showing the depth of water ice detected near mars' equator
More pertinent is the question of how the water ice ended up buried at the equator. Sub-surface ice has been found in plentiful quantities on Mars before; NASA's Phoenix mission dug up ice just beneath the dusty surface at the lander's polar landing site in 2008. Meanwhile, early in its mission, Mars Express detected abundant water-ice extending down into the mid-latitudes, and NASA's Mars Odyssey even found clues to the presence of water in the MMF in 2009.
More recently, ESA's Trace Gas Orbiter detected hydrogen from water ice just beneath the surface of Candor Chaos, which is a segment of the immense rip in the surface of Mars that we call Vallis Marineris. Additionally, the remains of ancient glaciers, called relict glaciers, have been spotted in Eastern Noctis Labyrinthus, which is just 7.3 degrees south of the equator.
The presence of subsurface water-ice at low and equatorial latitudes hints at how Mars' climate was very different in the distant past.
"This latest analysis challenges our understanding of the MFF and raises as many questions as answers," said Colin Wilson, who is an ESA Project Scientist for Mars Express and the Trace Gas Orbiter, in the statement. "How long did these ice deposits form, and what was Mars like at the time?"
The ice's existence could be the result of Mars' wandering axis. Across the Red Planet's history, the axial tilt of the planet's poles is understood to have varied quite chaotically. Currently Mars' poles are tilted to the ecliptic by 25 degrees (compared to Earth, which has a tilt of 23 degrees) but in the past this could have ranged from as shallow an angle as 10 degrees, to as extreme an angle as 60 degrees.
During the periods of high obliquity, when the poles are pointing closer to the sun than the equator, water-ice could form in large quantities on the surface at the equator. That ice could then be buried by ash and dust falls, to remain covered to this day.
The changing obliquity could also explain 400,000-year-old features discovered on Mars by the Chinese Zhurong rover, as well as the existence of gullies formed by liquid water where no such water should have existed.
The new discovery is described in a paper published in Geophysical Research Letters.
View comments (91)

(th)

SpaceNut · 2024-01-20 08:19:21

As you noted the drill that we created as a project for a mars mission ride on would have been of great benefit. One must wonder why the sales pitch was not be seen as a chance to get man to mar's to stay.

Mars has two miles of WATER buried at its equator, experts say

Now, scientists have discovered two miles of water buried beneath the surface in an area of the planet's equator, known as the Medusae Fossae Formation (MFF).
The water is frozen as ice in a layer measuring over two miles (3.7km) thick, according to new data from the Mars Express spacecraft.
If melted, the water would cover the whole of Mars in a layer of liquid up to 8.8 feet (2.7 metres) deep, and would be enough to fill Earth's Red Sea.
Although melting the ice may require an ambitious drilling operation when astronauts land on Mars, it could potentially be used for drinking or growing crops.
Map of potential water ice thickness at the Medusae Fossae Formation (MFF). The water ice deposits are up to 2.2 miles (3.7km) thick
The top of any ice-rich layers is at least 1,000 feet (300 metres) below the surface, but perhaps as much as 2,000 feet (600 metres) below the surface.

SpaceNut · 2024-01-20 16:23:42

GW Johnson wrote:

Drilling deep for ice requires a lot more of a drill rig than can be put on a rover and operated remotely. It WILL REQUIRE a human crew and typical well-drilling equipment adapted for use in vacuum and cold. You are looking at a drill derrick, a drill pipe string, and multiple bits periodically replaced.
You will need a cement that sets in cold and vacuum to bed-in the well pipe. You will need to run a 2-way nested pipe string down this cemented-in well, to pump in hot steam, and receive the pressurized meltwater coming back up. It may require some sort of down-hole separator to get the dust solids out of the meltwater. None of that equipment yet exists in a form adapted to Mars.
Talk to a real oil driller. He can tell you a lot more, in far greater detail.
So, who is working on these things? NASA? Musk? Anybody else? Nope, no one!
That being said, then just how in hell will propellant ever be made on Mars in 1000-ton lots from Martian air and meltwater? Benchtop demonstrators DO NOT serve as production devices for 1000-ton lots!
Somebody answer me that!
GW

Mars_B4_Moon · 2024-05-18 05:36:39

The eye of the crater
https://www.esa.int/ESA_Multimedia/Imag … the_crater

Utopia Planitia

The region is known to scientists for showing intriguing ice-related features on and below the surface, including frost on the surface during the martian winter.

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#1 2017-06-10 12:42:51

Ice deposit on Mars holds as much water as Lake Superior, researchers

#2 2017-06-10 17:43:13

Re: Ice deposit on Mars holds as much water as Lake Superior, researchers

#3 2017-06-13 09:57:00

Re: Ice deposit on Mars holds as much water as Lake Superior, researchers

#4 2017-06-13 10:41:02

Re: Ice deposit on Mars holds as much water as Lake Superior, researchers

#5 2017-06-13 14:27:17

Re: Ice deposit on Mars holds as much water as Lake Superior, researchers

#6 2017-06-14 05:56:14

Re: Ice deposit on Mars holds as much water as Lake Superior, researchers

#7 2017-06-14 08:11:37

Re: Ice deposit on Mars holds as much water as Lake Superior, researchers

#8 2017-06-15 12:16:45

Re: Ice deposit on Mars holds as much water as Lake Superior, researchers

#9 2017-06-16 04:46:05

Re: Ice deposit on Mars holds as much water as Lake Superior, researchers

#10 2019-11-23 21:42:41

Re: Ice deposit on Mars holds as much water as Lake Superior, researchers

#11 2020-03-02 21:18:15

Re: Ice deposit on Mars holds as much water as Lake Superior, researchers

#12 2020-12-21 19:30:54

Re: Ice deposit on Mars holds as much water as Lake Superior, researchers

#13 2020-12-22 14:38:39

Re: Ice deposit on Mars holds as much water as Lake Superior, researchers

#14 2024-01-19 13:03:53

Re: Ice deposit on Mars holds as much water as Lake Superior, researchers

#15 2024-01-20 08:19:21

Re: Ice deposit on Mars holds as much water as Lake Superior, researchers

#16 2024-01-20 16:23:42

Re: Ice deposit on Mars holds as much water as Lake Superior, researchers

#17 2024-05-18 05:36:39

Re: Ice deposit on Mars holds as much water as Lake Superior, researchers

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