First laboratory on Mars; equipment and scientists.

Oldfart1939 · 2017-01-11 17:04:36

One of the major reasons for making the epic journey to Mars is for the science, but what does that really entail? What sort of science should we/will we be doing, and what equipment and personnel are really required to accomplish the goals which are established? These are all questions which must realistically be asked well in advance of the first manned missions.

I would accurately guess that the search for evidence of life present and past is the foremost scientific reason to visit the Red Planet, and colonization is second. Having a properly equipped scientific laboratory is only one half of the equation, and the personnel manning it compose the other half.

So...what will the scientists be doing, and what sort should they be? Post comments, and I'll do so myself in a different post to this thread.

elderflower · 2017-01-12 03:45:59

The way I see it:
Obviously geologists, chemists, physicists in various specialties such as seismology, glaciology, vulcanology, meteorology. Engineers to support the scientists and develop and maintain facilities. Horticulturalists to set up and operate greenhouse life support systems. Physician, dentist, surgeon and medical orderly. Administrator, commander.
More than one of these functions will probably be performed by each individual.
In principal, base crew wouldn't be a lot different from an Antarctic base on earth (such as Halley Bay, or Mawson) just tailored to suit Mars science rather than earth science.

SpaceNut · 2017-01-12 07:02:30

Science missions for "search for evidence of life present and past " is a given along with "seismology, vulcanology, meteorology" but these next have overlapping missions for colonization "glaciology, geologists, chemists, physicists ", which makes these the primary mission efforts as once you can stay the others can be done..

Oldfart1939 · 2017-01-12 09:12:50

The needs are pretty self-evident: a good geologist/paleontologist, a chemist/biochemist with good analytical instrumentation skills; a second geologist/hydrologist/seismologist. Of the first dozen or so explorers sent, there should be a good core scientific team. The engineers are a given and some with good hands-on construction skills. But that's a different part of the mission.

Just looking at the photos returned by the rovers shows an enormous amount of layering caused by sedimentation. Turn a good paleontologist loose on those formations, and get the base laboratory working on them. Equipment is needed to split layers looking for fossil evidence, so one of the most essential instruments we should bring is a great microscope for sample examination, and in fact there should be a binocular "macroscope." In order to characterize samples, an FTIR spectrophotometer would be useful. According to a recent article, the "Surface of Mars is covered with organics." The FTIR would be able to identify such compounds. Some sort of chromatography for determining the composition of organic mixtures is essential; either HPLC or/and Gas chromatography. The ability to do mineralogy type assays is also essential. What is of immediate importance is finding water, so having the necessary reagents available for water analysis is of extreme importance. Determining whether or not water found is potable and what treatment would be needed to make it so is essential for colonization. Soil analysis is needed to establish what amendments are needed for greenhouse agriculture, so necessary reagents and associated instrumentation should be taken along. Chemistry is the core science in determining what's needed for residence on Mars.

SpaceNut · 2017-01-12 16:36:53

Up an coming missions to mars of which INSIGHT is carrying a seismic unit and on the 2020 rover there will be NASA Announces Selected Photonic and Spectroscopy Equipment for the Mars 2020 Rover

Spectroscopy on Mars: A Look at What’s Been Uncovered About the Red Planet

LIBS and the Mars Curiosity Rover

MARS ORGANIC MOLECULE ANALYZER: PERFORMANCE OF THE GAS CHROMATOGRAPHY MASS SPECTROMETRY MODE OF OPERATION

http://sam.projet.latmos.ipsl.fr/SAM_GC … ations.php

louis · 2017-01-13 05:45:09

Yes, I'd like see a range of research undertaken - geology, meterology and astronomy/cosmology being the most obvious.

But I'd also like see ISRU research. I would like to see pilot studies for small scale ISRU steel furnaces, plastics manufacturing and brick making. A small scale industrial lathe would be useful as well as a 3D printer.

Likewise of course agricultural pilot work.

Oldfart1939 wrote:

One of the major reasons for making the epic journey to Mars is for the science, but what does that really entail? What sort of science should we/will we be doing, and what equipment and personnel are really required to accomplish the goals which are established? These are all questions which must realistically be asked well in advance of the first manned missions.
I would accurately guess that the search for evidence of life present and past is the foremost scientific reason to visit the Red Planet, and colonization is second. Having a properly equipped scientific laboratory is only one half of the equation, and the personnel manning it compose the other half.
So...what will the scientists be doing, and what sort should they be? Post comments, and I'll do so myself in a different post to this thread.

elderflower · 2017-01-13 06:28:33

You dont need smelting, initially, If you want small metal items, you can beat them out of metallic meteorites, with heat provided from an oxy-methane torch.

Oldfart1939 · 2017-01-13 17:42:35

Small metal items are best produced through 3-D printing. Smelting requires a source of carbon monoxide, normally provide by coke. This could also be provided by the oxygen producing reaction from carbon dioxide.

SpaceNut · 2017-01-13 22:26:46

We do have a 3D printer topic to further discusion 3D Printers
The same is true for Bricks and furnace of which these are not science but further colonization expansion growth oportunities.

As I was trying to post before just how much more science do we really need other than site selection before landing to stay so we can do more science for the other things not related to survival.

Oldfart1939 · 2017-01-14 00:06:14

SpaceNut wrote:

As I was trying to post before just how much more science do we really need other than site selection before landing to stay so we can do more science for the other things not related to survival.

My reason for starting this thread was for a laboratory doing basic science, as well as supporting planetary development. Not making bricks, small metal parts, etc. This means looking for evidence of life, ability to identify geologic specimens, assist in procuring a source of potable water, etc.

SpaceNut · 2017-01-14 09:17:04

The evidence of life past would have required water as we know it and we do know that Mars has had water. Finding fossils or even current bacterial life will require something beyond machines roving the surface I do agree.

We do need a foot hold for the extra people to be able to do the advance science of investigation (reading the clues) and mobility to go with it. Which mean water must be found in large enough quantities for survival and it needs to be suitable for processing with the least amount of energy too.

So do we send a water witch or advance underground radar, use seismic methods or other ways to be able to find that underground source all of which needs to be low mass initially to find this water. After that we can switch gears to doing something else whether that is mineralization search, geologist would be of use there.

This step is to secure a viable long standing base for expansion so that we can do more investigative science. Mars will not go away we only need to confine man's activities to a localized zone so as to keep any search for life elsewhere possible without contanmination.

All of this is talking about Overview of Mission Design
planning with in a budgetary limit of cash and payload mass.

This is also archectural on that a Mars Mission Comparisons - updated with kbd512's proposal

elderflower · 2017-01-14 09:36:47

You can't do much until you have established support for the scientists. I think the first missions will be exploratory. Geared to finding a good site and setting up a base and facilities. Given the limitations on mass transport, we will probably want to reconnoitre using flying machines controlled in real time from orbit before landing the advance party and habs.
Second mission would install additional facilities and start life support system.
I don't think science, as done in a laboratory, actually plays a big part until mission no 3.

Oldfart1939 · 2017-01-14 11:26:59

One way of accomplishing the laboratory is by sending a completely equipped Lab Hab. As a separate vehicle launch, which could also haul a partial load of supplies.

SpaceNut · 2017-01-14 12:37:19

Which gets me back to another topic where I meantioned that allow those there to not work in the outside toiling for the stay on mars is a hardship that others will not tollerate as time goes by.

Oldfart1939 · 2017-05-26 09:59:28

We've somewhat duplicated the results of this thread on yet another thread.

SpaceNut · 2017-05-26 16:59:42

I see somewhat...
What tools do we need to bring to use? where can we create a lab location on first mission is a possible reuse and housed in empty cargo landers. At least it would be something to do work in with minimal cost.

Oldfart1939 · 2017-05-31 08:51:06

I believe the scientists in the lab will be collecting their own samples on outside explorations. They will need to see the sites from which the samples came, at any rate.

SpaceNut · 2017-05-31 17:53:46

I would think that we would also video tape the area its found and do some stills as well for future reference for that sample and not just rely on the memory of the astronauts.

elderflower · 2017-06-01 03:31:14

Yes, indeed. there will be thousands of PhD candidates back home, requiring to be fed.

SpaceNut · 2017-06-01 19:35:45

This area of science will need real tools for the most part sent for the work to occur and very few to be made via 3D printing would be my best guess. So microscopes, ovens, grinding refining tools, chemical analysis....sample cases...

SpaceNut · 2017-06-10 13:00:24

Human Exploration of Mars Design Reference Architecture 5.0

Science goals start around pg20 onward

After extensive discussion, the MAWG concluded that the goals for the initial human exploration of Mars are best organized under the following taxonomy:
Goals I–III (Planetary Science)
: The traditional goals (MEPAG, 2006) for understanding Mars’ potential for life (Goal I), its current and ancient climate (Goal II), and its geology/geophysics (Goal III).
Goal IV+ (Preparation for Sustained Human Presence)
: MEPAG (2006) uses the term “Goal IV” to describe preparation for the first human explorers. By definition, this cannot be a goal for the first human missions since, by then, the preparation would have to be complete. However, a goal of the first human missions is to prepare for the subsequent future, which includes sustained human presence on the surface of Mars.
Goal V (Ancillary Science)
: This includes all scientific objectives unrelated to Mars, including those related to astrophysics, observations of the sun, Earth, moon, and interplanetary environment. Note that these objectives may be important during the transit phase for missions to and from Mars.

Oldfart1939 · 2017-06-10 14:15:10

SpaceNut-

Check my post #4 of this thread.

SpaceNut · 2017-06-10 14:35:55

Yes your take on the people and the skill align with what Nasa has in this document and where are we, still waiting on robotic missions at a snail pace.....With Space x still raising funds to build bigger....and Nasa hoping that funding grows to keep pace with inflation...
I think Nasa needs to be broken down into several agencies with no overlapping responsibilites to rocket building....

Oldfart1939 · 2017-06-10 17:14:38

SpaceNut-

Yes, NASA has succumbed to the bureaucratic disease of Empire Building within. NASA is really an outgrowth of NACA, the National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics, and aeronautics responsibility remains as part of the charter. Some of the propulsion research should be broken out, as well as the aeronautics responsibility. Earth Sciences should go to NOAA. The NASA pie is $19.1 Billion this year, and the internal competition for funds is unreal.

Oldfart1939 · 2017-06-11 07:05:38

It's my belief that the Trump administration will be more brutal in the dismemberment of NASA's roles; some of the agency's activities will simply be curtailed and/or eliminated. NASA certainly needs some focus on central scientific roles instead of having too many small splinter groups within.

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#1 2017-01-11 17:04:36

First laboratory on Mars; equipment and scientists.

#2 2017-01-12 03:45:59

Re: First laboratory on Mars; equipment and scientists.

#3 2017-01-12 07:02:30

Re: First laboratory on Mars; equipment and scientists.

#4 2017-01-12 09:12:50

Re: First laboratory on Mars; equipment and scientists.

#5 2017-01-12 16:36:53

Re: First laboratory on Mars; equipment and scientists.

#6 2017-01-13 05:45:09

Re: First laboratory on Mars; equipment and scientists.

#7 2017-01-13 06:28:33

Re: First laboratory on Mars; equipment and scientists.

#8 2017-01-13 17:42:35

Re: First laboratory on Mars; equipment and scientists.

#9 2017-01-13 22:26:46

Re: First laboratory on Mars; equipment and scientists.

#10 2017-01-14 00:06:14

Re: First laboratory on Mars; equipment and scientists.

#11 2017-01-14 09:17:04

Re: First laboratory on Mars; equipment and scientists.

#12 2017-01-14 09:36:47

Re: First laboratory on Mars; equipment and scientists.

#13 2017-01-14 11:26:59

Re: First laboratory on Mars; equipment and scientists.

#14 2017-01-14 12:37:19

Re: First laboratory on Mars; equipment and scientists.

#15 2017-05-26 09:59:28

Re: First laboratory on Mars; equipment and scientists.

#16 2017-05-26 16:59:42

Re: First laboratory on Mars; equipment and scientists.

#17 2017-05-31 08:51:06

Re: First laboratory on Mars; equipment and scientists.

#18 2017-05-31 17:53:46

Re: First laboratory on Mars; equipment and scientists.

#19 2017-06-01 03:31:14

Re: First laboratory on Mars; equipment and scientists.

#20 2017-06-01 19:35:45

Re: First laboratory on Mars; equipment and scientists.

#21 2017-06-10 13:00:24

Re: First laboratory on Mars; equipment and scientists.

#22 2017-06-10 14:15:10

Re: First laboratory on Mars; equipment and scientists.

#23 2017-06-10 14:35:55

Re: First laboratory on Mars; equipment and scientists.

#24 2017-06-10 17:14:38

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#25 2017-06-11 07:05:38

Re: First laboratory on Mars; equipment and scientists.

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