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#351 2017-02-12 21:01:54

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,111

Re: Venus

Kind of like a dream come true.

I recall in Sci Fi some kind of a nuclear suit that would have a radiator that would glow incandescent, with a human in it.

Here, on this site, there has been speculation on an eventual robot mining operation, but I felt that such capabilities would be a long time off, the electronics for it.

http://www.universetoday.com/104296/sai … ish-venus/
zephyr-580x435.jpg

After the exploration phase, if the equipment works, and life is not found in the clouds, I see no reason to not elevate the colonization of Venus to the highest level.

It has everything needed, but it will be a test.  A test that may likely be good for the human race.

Imagine a solar system with 3 habituated terrestrial planets.

I guess for machines though on the surface of Venus, they have to design the parts with the expectation that they will swell in the heat.  But a method should work.  As for power on the early machines, perhaps indeed fission reactors, maybe wind generated energy stored and released.  But of course if you have a cloud city there would be many ways to get power down to the surface from it.

Last edited by Void (2017-02-12 21:09:33)

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#352 2017-02-21 18:39:43

knightdepaix
Member
Registered: 2014-07-07
Posts: 108

Re: Venus

I have a fantasy question.
Regarding the garbage problem on earth, how about dumping garbage from the Earth onto a giant man-dug hole from a volcanic crater or even onto an active crater? Let the lava engulf the garbage. Given the higher atmospheric pressure and temperature than on the Earth and the heat from lava, composition in garbage will change. Robotic mining will then scrape the cooled lava. The ores with previous garbage composition could be sent off the Venus, not to mention sulfuric acid is available as a chemical reactant.

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#353 2017-02-21 21:44:52

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 11,379

Re: Venus

I would love to see an advance balloon system that would keep an atmospheric probe alot for long periods of time to get more scientific data about this super hot planet.

So we know that we need a very large light mass aeroshell for the probe to ride into the atmosphere. I would say we are looking to have it open somewhere near the 1 atmosphere level or slightly higher.

I would think that an RTG would be the correct choice for a power source to which we could make it work on the surface to help cool the electronics once its does lower to the ground due to the heat differential between it and the air temperature.

I would think that we can get away with a lower mass heatshield as well to make it easier to send it to the planet on current rocket launchers.

As far as garbage I would send it to mars and create the artifical volcano with the help of lasers onces its placed into a volcanic cone.

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#355 2017-02-22 07:52:30

elderflower
Member
Registered: 2016-06-19
Posts: 743

Re: Venus

Hot "air" balloons could work in the atmospheres of the outer planets and of Titan, perhaps. Heat source would be the radio isotopes that also provide power.

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#356 2017-02-22 12:20:38

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Venus

A cold hydrogen balloon would work just fine in the atmosphere of Titan, since that atmosphere is mostly nitrogen, just like ours.

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#357 2017-02-22 20:11:48

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 11,379

Re: Venus

Still need to have the program funded for a mission other wise its just more concepts turned out to keep that rock rolling down the road.

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#358 2017-04-25 01:57:35

knightdepaix
Member
Registered: 2014-07-07
Posts: 108

Re: Venus

An idea off the top when reading a NASA article. Carbon dioxide is supercritical at lower altitudes of Venus' atmosphere while higher up the atmosphere and temperature is similar to the planet Earth's terrestial conditions. So how about using the supercritical carbon dioxide for manufacturing? Manufacturing shall require less technological, financial and other commitments than terraforming.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar … 2316303852
Electrolysis of lithium and/or sodium carbonates yield carbon nanostructured materials.

So does establishment of a floating factory complex at lower altitudes of Venus' atmosphere and a floating communities of thousand people for the factory personnel and their family and social relations make sense? Those human consume the oxygen evolved in electrolysis. The manufactured carbon with other chemical element input serve a basis for carbon based human life in that community.

A similar manufacturing factory complex communities can also be established on the Earth's moon for mining helium-3 and iron from lunar regolith. By idea, the hydrogen gas from helium-3 nuclear fusion is sent to Venus for making water with the oxygen from the aforementioned carbonate. Also by idea, the helium-4 gas from that nuclear fusion keeps the Venus' floating community and factory complex afloat.

The transport of chemical elements to Venus for sustaining the floating communities would be an issue. Does selling the manufactured goods of carbon based material, for example synthetic diamond, carbon nanometerials, graphene, by fully using Venus' supercritical carbon dioxide and its temperature and pressure of its atmosphere make sense?

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#360 2017-04-26 09:02:18

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Venus

Venus is a potential other Earth. There is a rock, 250 miles in diameter that will com within 50 AU of the Sun SY99 I think it was called, it takes 20,000 years to complete an orbit, it will reach perihelion in 2054. If we perfect whole body suspended animation and have a spaceship that can get us there, we can perhaps see this terraformed Venus for ourselves.
th?id=OIP.IInHspiCkMCQClBd5EvAMQEsEL&pid=15.1
Which Venus will we see when SY99 comes around again? Will it be this one?
terraforming-venus.jpg
Or this one? Seems to me, we can set robots to work on Venus and go on a 20,000 year trip around the Sun, and presumably when we get back, there will be a terraformed Venus ready for us to occupy an inhabit, the only monkey wrench in this plan is what the other seven billion humans and their robots will be doing on the planet next door, will they interfere?

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#361 2017-04-26 16:12:53

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 11,379

Re: Venus

I like the second image best but why should man even take 200 years let alone 20,000... We just need to start going and that means something other than sending robotic crafts...We need to send men...

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#362 2017-04-27 00:05:54

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Venus

The payoff is we get a second home for mankind, unfortunately it takes a long time to terraform Venus, we need to send the people who are investing their money in terraforming Venus into the distant future so they can live on Venus and realize a return on their investment, does that make any sense to you?

Terraforming Venus is a real estate development project after all. How long before you can start living in your new home after you put down the money for Terraforming Venus, we may be able to shorten their perceived passage of time by putting them in suspended animation, this is much the same for travel to distant stars, it is as much a travel in time as it is travel in space, with Venus it is only travel in time. In 20,000 years we can have a fully grown ecosystem with ancient forests on Venus, we can have plentiful wildlife, and those investors, when they come out of suspended animation, can take an axe and start building a log cabin.

Last edited by Tom Kalbfus (2017-04-27 00:11:15)

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#363 2017-05-18 16:10:39

knightdepaix
Member
Registered: 2014-07-07
Posts: 108

Re: Venus

Do we want raining in the terraformed Venus? It remains me of Ray Bradbury's All Summer in a Day.

Meanwhile during the terraforming or before terrraforming, how can human make use of the abundant carbon and oxygen in Venus atmosphere? I am thinking about manufacturing on industrial scale graphite, synthetic diamond, carbon nanomaterials and graphite oxide. These locally sourced materials and imported from the Earth's moon helium-4 are used for constructing the floating settlement and keeping it afloat. In addition, if organic oxygen and carbon materials are exported, few oxocarbons could be made. Mellitic anhydride C12O9 melts at
434K under normal conditions. To carry appropriate metals along with organic materials, bulk metal, ammonium or organic mellitates can be stored in appropriate amount and proportion before export. The soft mineral honeystone is the di-aluminum salt. A spaceship trip from the Earth's Moon brings helium-4, to the Moon exports the anhydride which picked up byproduct metals from the refining processes for helium-3. Then on the destination site on Mars, the bulk metal salts are broken down into their components. 

These carbon and oxygen based materials are going to exported to Mars and the Earth to help sustain the terraformation of Venus.

Last edited by knightdepaix (2017-05-18 16:11:31)

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#364 2017-07-01 13:44:19

karov
Member
From: Bulgaria
Registered: 2004-06-03
Posts: 951

Re: Venus

VENUS - easy.:

Excite as many of these as necessary towards Venus.:

http://www.sciencealert.com/run-for-cov … ards-earth

utilize both the kinetic energy of the plasma (by MHD down to cryonic cold) and its hydrogen to convert the H + CO2 into water and graphite.

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#366 2018-03-27 18:49:29

knightdepaix
Member
Registered: 2014-07-07
Posts: 108

Re: Venus

Could a collection of huge Sterling engines be built for electricity generation? The hot fluid sink is the denser atmosphere closer to the surface of Venus, the cold is closer to the atmosphere at the top. Each engine would be more than 10km long in length and suspended in the atmosphere of Venus. The secondary effect would be drawing the heat within Venus to the atmosphere at the top, allowing more possible dissipation of the heat.

Last edited by knightdepaix (2018-03-27 18:50:10)

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#367 2018-03-27 19:51:07

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 11,379

Re: Venus

We have been talking about a different solar cell that can widthstand high temperatures and I think that they would apply for venus use.
https://phys.org/news/2016-08-high-temp … solar.html

In experiments, the new absorbers were shown to operate at a temperature of 800 degrees Celsius and to absorb light of wavelengths ranging from 300 to 1750 nanometers, that is, from ultraviolet (UV) to near-infrared wavelengths.

AS for sterling engines I think the possibility is there if we can construct them and deliver them to venus....

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#368 2018-03-28 13:07:26

knightdepaix
Member
Registered: 2014-07-07
Posts: 108

Re: Venus

The atmosphere of Venus becomes increasing hot as travelling more closer to the planet's surface. How can power generation exploit this characteristic?

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#369 2018-03-28 17:33:21

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 11,379

Re: Venus

I was thinking of using them to form a sun side shield to start the cooling process and to generate power that could be beamed towards the surface. Think something like the visor 3578643.jpg

Collect the solar wind to use for station keeping and use a drop hose towards the planet to siphon the upper atmosphere to start to process of oxygen creation and more. Continuing to build up the shield size over time.

I do also think that these would be good on the cloud city topics of a floating city as well,

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#370 2018-03-29 11:21:26

elderflower
Member
Registered: 2016-06-19
Posts: 743

Re: Venus

Much of the change in temperature with height in the atmosphere is known as the lapse rate. As a blob of atmospheric gas rises, its pressure reduces and it expands. This expansion cools the gas. Contrariwise a sinking parcel of gas will be heated due to compression.  Where a rising, cooling parcel's temperature falls below the saturation temperature of it's condensable vapour content, clouds begin to form and precipitation of liquid or possibly of solid particles can occur. As condensation occurs in the rising gas parcel latent heat is released. That heat, together with increasing pressure as the gas descends is why the Fohn/Chinook winds are relatively warm. Once condensation starts, the lapse rate changes due to the input of latent heat.
This applies to all known planetary atmospheres, including that of Venus, where the clouds are not of water, but of sulphuric acid. Extracting heat at low level and using it at height requires the use of an heat transfer agent which has a lesser lapse rate than that of the atmosphere around it, otherwise, as it too expands, it won't be hot when it gets to the top. This means that you probably won't get much performance from a gaseous heat transfer material.
Liquids might work but if you have a buoyant system the weight of liquid and containment is likely to be an embarrassment, unless your atmosphere is very dense, which that of Venus definitely is. However the differential wind speeds and directions at different levels in the atmosphere have potential to apply extremely high loads to a structure which extends from one zone into another. This may require heavy construction as well.
My conclusion: Floating installations will need floating power sources such as lightweight nuclear reactors.

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#371 2018-04-13 16:45:00

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,111

Re: Venus

While I do not object to nuclear reactors, I would say that alternatives may exist.

For small installations, the differential winds may provide power.  Windmills.

For very large installations, if they are extremely large, then we could hope to have the bottom of the structure jut below the cloud deck, and the top jut above the bulk of the cloud deck.  What could be achieved by that is the incorporation of water vapor into the structure.  In other words, adiabatic heating of clouds of water vapor inside the structure.  Clouds that rise to the interior top of the structure and condense into water captured.  The water allowed to fall through largely vertical pipes to attain momentum and water column height and to then pass through a turbine.

The cold water then passing down to the bottom of the chamber, to provide cooling in the interior at that point.

As mentioned before differential winds on the exterior could be exploited by windmills.

Two other potential power sources for this device also perhaps available.

Solar power from the sun during the day, obviously.

But the rocks of Venus glow a dull red which would be noticed if you were on the surface in the night.  So, I propose special infrared solar cells.

http://news.mit.edu/2012/infrared-photovoltaic-0621
Quote:

About 40 percent of the solar energy reaching Earth’s surface lies in the near-infrared region of the spectrum — energy that conventional silicon-based solar cells are unable to harness. But a new kind of all-carbon solar cell developed by MIT researchers could tap into that unused energy, opening up the possibility of combination solar cells — incorporating both traditional silicon-based cells and the new all-carbon cells — that could make use of almost the entire range of sunlight’s energy.

So, that comes close, and Carbon after all is very available in the atmosphere of Venus.

Honestly if I had my choices for energy and had to pick just one, I would choose wind for small floating installations, and the ground infrared glow for very large installations. 

The reason is if you installation juts below the clouds where it is rather hot, still you have a constant glow.  No need for energy storage.
The other bonus is that at those levels the heat splits the Sulfuric Acid into H20 and Sulfur Dioxide.  So you can just take in the water.

However I believe it will be about ~10 Bars pressure, and rather hot, so you will definitely want some kind of cooling method.  I have mentioned a water cycle for that, but a simpler method is just to let internal winds blow.  The temperature difference between the top and bottom will be several hundred degrees.  The interior mix mostly would be Nitrogen extracted from the outside atmosphere.  However selected locations where humans would live may have a Nitrogen/Oxygen mix.  Still having cooling water might be good.

As for the Near Infrared light, that also can power Oxidative Photosynthesis, but of course no plants will use it just some microbes, and you would have to cool them.

So otherwise for your food, perhaps you want greenhouses on top of the structure, or artificial light gardens.

Just my opinion.

Truthfully, I think we will have better options in orbit of Venus after all.  Much easier to have an economic bond with the Earth/Moon system, the Mars/Phobos/Demos system, and with Mercury and the asteroids.


But in the distant future perhaps floating habitats in the atmosphere of Venus.

Last edited by Void (2018-04-13 16:53:54)

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#372 2018-04-13 17:30:47

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,111

Re: Venus

I am somewhat comfortable in the Terraform section.

I have become much more interested in cycling spaceships, and small shell worlds which could be put in orbit of Venus and Mercury.
The orbital period of Mercury =  88 days.
The orbital period of Venus     = 225 days.
The orbital period of Earth       = 365 days.
The orbital period of Mars       = 687 days.
The orbital period of Ceres      = 1,682 days.
The oribtal period of Jupiter/Trojans = 12 years.  (That must be a rounded number).

So, I am not talking about cylers as primarily transfer machines for population and materials, but rather as habitat/land, conveniently placed so that some critical transfers could be made as might be useful.
So rings of habitats around the sun.  A first math I might try is divide the orbital period of Mars by the orbital period of Venus.   That yields the number 3.05333....
So, almost 3 to 1!
So, the question is where can we get the materials to build sun orbiting "Land".
Mercury can provide solid materials, and water.  It may be a natural trap for Hydrogen from the sun as our Moon appears to be.
So, suppose you had construction facilities on Mercury, and kept building synthetic gravity worlds.  Put a minimum amount of water and air into them and sail them gradually to Venus by Magnetic methods.  Then at Venus fill them with Oxygen and Nitrogen from the atmophere of Venus.  Then when filled, sail them to a solar orbit just inside or outside of that of Venus.  Whatever works best.  A slightly different orbital period than Venus however, so that over long periods of time, these habitats can re-enter the orbit of Venus, for a refill, and for cultural exchange with the habitats permanently in orbit with Venus.
Some of these however might magnetically sail to the orbit of Mars, and do a similar thing.  More land.  More distribution.
Robotic Electric Rockets could do most of the exchanges of goods and materials.  These habitats periodically parking in orbit of their parenting planet (Venus, Mars), could also allow for cultural exchanges.
But also it is not out of question that people could do transfers directly from station to station.  That is in the solar circle of Venus or the Solar circle of Mars.
And further, with much greater effort exchanges of people between the solar ring for Venus, to the solar ring for Mars, and vice versa.
And of course there would be communications across space between all of these potentially.  Such communications even though faster than physical exchanges, will be subject to time latency.
That is a good thing.  It will help to prevent the rise of a central governing entity.  Since it will be impossible to watch all the people all the time in real time, the latency may help to provide options for freedom from rent collecting leaches, the Verbal and Violent, who often want to collect tribute for doing no service of value to the human race.
Other rings, other planets?  Well the above is enough to consider for now.
It may be noticed that with this plan eventually the atmosphere of Venus might be drawn down to a very much lower air pressure, while it contributes to a solar civilization which may have enough power to cross the gap between stars.
Win Win?

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#373 2018-04-13 18:49:34

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 11,379

Re: Venus

Something to consider about solar at Venus is In orbit is about 2613.9 watts per square meter. A panel rated at 100W on earth, would produce 136 watts on venus. Average temperature: 737 K (464 C) on the surface. With that same panel in space gathering 261 watts around Venus. Venus's thick atmosphere reflects more than 60% of the solar light it receives.

https://www.wcc.nrcs.usda.gov/ftpref/wn … ersion.pdf

https://www.theunitconverter.com/btu-ho … onversion/

https://www.theunitconverter.com/btu-ho … onversion/

2615 Watt/Square Meter = 828.95063 BTU/Hour Square Foot

A BTU is the amount of energy it takes to heat a pound of water by 1 degree Farenhiet.

https://www.metric-conversions.org/temp … elsius.htm

The high temperature panels were able to widthstand 800'C which is 1472'F which is 1472 btu or 4629w/m^2 or just under 2 reflective panels to rise the heat and light energy that we can recieve per panel to its max output.

From the link void the panels

So far, the early proof-of-concept devices have an energy-conversion efficiency of only about 0.1 percent.

hopefully this will improve but the other link was different but not finding the output electric conversion....
Nowe using the information of coversion reflection for mars so will copy this to that topic as well but will update for mars numbers.

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#374 2018-04-14 03:49:17

Terraformer
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From: Lancashire
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 2,665
Website

Re: Venus

Windpower won't work for floating platforms, since they'll be moving at the same speed as the wind anyway. Unless you exploit the different wind speeds at different altitude, perhaps using a kite system?

Floating platforms will have plenty of space for large mirror installations. Solar thermal is probably the best bet for generating power.


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#375 2018-04-14 11:17:56

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 2,111

Re: Venus

Well, I think you are more or less right.  At the smallest scale sun solar is the most likely.

Going up a bit, wind might work.  By a kite system as you suggest, or by inertia, if the winds are gusty.  That is if the station has inertia, and the winds are gusty, you might get forward and reverse spin on a windmill.  I am not saying it would work great, but it might work.

I do like the idea of light weight nuclear reactors as well, because then your method for power does not have to be exposed to the exterior conditions.

But then I suppose it has to be cooled with Venus atmosphere?  That then is exposed to exterior conditions.

For my part, I am currently more interested in orbital habitats.  Orbital of Venus itself, and orbital of the sun.

But I am thinking that in the similar time frame attempts will be made to inhabit Venus itself.

I am really after a solar system civilization capable of crossing the gap between star systems.

I think that has to be a very large population with plenty advancements in technology.

Last edited by Void (2018-04-14 11:20:14)

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