New Mars Forums

Official discussion forum of The Mars Society and MarsNews.com

You are not logged in.

Announcement

Announcement: We've recently made changes to our user database and have removed inactive and spam users. If you can not login, please re-register.

#1 2002-05-21 12:02:44

bradguth
Member
From: Olalla, Washington
Registered: 2002-05-21
Posts: 7
Website

Re: CO2-->CO/O2 + H2O2 (possibly even a little c12h26) - Robert Zubrin and GUTH Venus

I have a wee little plan as to flying high on Venus.
I even have a rather massive airship (180 x 1200 meters)
This airship ignites upon h2o2/c12h26, then blends in co2.

My research needs some further input, unfortunately this has little to do with Mars. I hope that is not going to be any problem.

Venus offers plenty of already hot co2 and, that upper atmosphere is simply loaded with sufficieni h2o and thereby h2o2. So, tell me this can't be done.

http://geocities.com/bradguth/Airship-2.html
and
http://geocities.com/bradguth/energy-options.htm
and
http://geocities.com/bradguth/fire-on-venus.htm

As backup/alternate: http://guthvenus.tripod.com

Eventually I would like to hear directly from Dr. Robert Zubrin. How hard can that be?

Regards, Brad Guth / IEIS 1-253-8576061

Offline

#2 2002-05-24 14:42:34

Canth
Member
Registered: 2002-04-21
Posts: 126

Re: CO2-->CO/O2 + H2O2 (possibly even a little c12h26) - Robert Zubrin and GUTH Venus

Venus' atmosphere is devoid of water. It was split into hydrogen and oxygen by solar radiation and most of the hydrogen was blown away in the solar wind. Any hydrogen in  Venus' upper atmosphere was long ago blown away in the solar wind which is also powerful enough to blow away oxygen and even heavier elements. The only source of hydrogen I know of on Venus is H2SO4 or sulfuric acid which is apparently present in Venus' clouds.
I can't see your case for artificial construction of anything in the images you have posted on your websites. I would really like an explination of what you beleive signifies intelligent construction of any features in those images. I will reserve judgment about the plausible validity of you idea until I understand how you came to the conclusions you did. I must admit your hypothesis seems farfetched but I will not dismiss it until I really understand what you are trying to say.

Offline

#3 2002-05-24 21:33:28

Phobos
Member
Registered: 2002-01-02
Posts: 1,103

Re: CO2-->CO/O2 + H2O2 (possibly even a little c12h26) - Robert Zubrin and GUTH Venus

Even if the blimp is viable, why on earth would you want to float around in the Venusian clouds for months on end in a blimp?  There really wouldn't be much for people to do except maybe dabble in some meteorology that could probably be done more efficiently with an orbiter.   It's really a shame though that Venus is such a hellish planet that it kills anything that lands there in five seconds.  We could get to Venus a lot faster than Mars if it didn't have such a bad temper toward visitors.


To achieve the impossible you must attempt the absurd

Offline

#4 2002-06-03 14:25:36

bradguth
Member
From: Olalla, Washington
Registered: 2002-05-21
Posts: 7
Website

Re: CO2-->CO/O2 + H2O2 (possibly even a little c12h26) - Robert Zubrin and GUTH Venus

Obviously, you simply have the idea that somehow Earth humans are it, and, you do not much care as to considering the possibilities, because?

If you are interested; I've already done a fair job of explaining what's in the image, that which is not natural by any known/recorded standards.  If on the other hand, you can explain how lava could have possibly created a 1000+ meter horizontal bridge, spanning a "grand canyon" and, perhaps something further as to how natural events caused four segments of a reservoir to somehow become collected plus connected from their center to the edge of yet another massive reservoir (showing a dark center) and, these elements equating to something exceeding 50 million cubic meters worth of containment, Then I'm willing to review the remaining potentials of what's existing in this image.

As being the original observer, my job is nearly done, however, as to further entertaining your limited view points, such as that rather stupid comment about the "airship" issue, if you bothered to read at least excerpts from a few of my pages, you would have realized the greater logic and obvious potential of such an airship.

Even according to NASA's research, alone that CO2 atmosphere is a fairly good rocket engine fuel, as could be utilized for a turboprop power plant. I simply believe H2O2 and other substances are potentially there for those capable of reaching into those clouds, plus otherwise deep into the planetary geology.

Because there is so much to consider, we must focus upon one specific target at a time.

I'm most interested to see your text/documentation on defining what's in the image as being purely natural, obviously because of your superior expertise in such matters will enable others and myself to realize the differences from rock, soils and lava flows along with subsequent erosions and even "one-of-a-kind" tectonics as to prevail as being entirely responsible, or perhaps irresponsible.

Offline

#5 2002-06-03 14:48:07

Phobos
Member
Registered: 2002-01-02
Posts: 1,103

Re: CO2-->CO/O2 + H2O2 (possibly even a little c12h26) - Robert Zubrin and GUTH Venus

As being the original observer, my job is nearly done, however, as to further entertaining your limited view points, such as that rather stupid comment about the "airship" issue, if you bothered to read at least excerpts from a few of my pages, you would have realized the greater logic and obvious potential of such an airship.

LOL, I think Brad's having a bad day!  It would be a lot less risky to just use an orbiter.  They have some pretty snazzy instruments that could probably do most of the tasks just as well.  Anyways, about the only thing this blimp could conceivably do that an orbiter couldn't would be getting gorgeous color photos of the surface, provided it didn't get baked to death.


To achieve the impossible you must attempt the absurd

Offline

#6 2002-06-03 22:52:09

Josh Cryer
Administrator
Registered: 2001-09-29
Posts: 3,828

Re: CO2-->CO/O2 + H2O2 (possibly even a little c12h26) - Robert Zubrin and GUTH Venus

It sounds like a novel idea, actually. How about blimp cities made of polyethylenes derived from the atmosphere? That would be awesome. smile

“The floating cities of Venus.”

They would be easier to make than, say, building a [i:post_uid6]huge[/i:post_uid6] solar shade in an attempt to cool (and eventually terraform) the planet.


Some useful links while MER are active. Offical site NASA TV JPL MER2004 Text feed
--------
The amount of solar radiation reaching the surface of the earth totals some 3.9 million exajoules a year.

Offline

#7 2002-06-04 13:53:09

Phobos
Member
Registered: 2002-01-02
Posts: 1,103

Re: CO2-->CO/O2 + H2O2 (possibly even a little c12h26) - Robert Zubrin and GUTH Venus

Wow, that could be a sight having huge floating cities in Venus's atmosphere.  You could probably get one hel of weather show to if the high velocity of the winds don't severly destabilize the blimps.  Such a floating city might make a good tourist attraction, but I wouldn't stay for long.  Something floating around on Venus is bound to come crashing down sooner or later. smile  What altitude on Venus would something like that have to be at inorder to stay at a reasonable temperature?  Do you think it would be possible to bring it low enough so you could get a glimpse at the ground without the heat becoming a huge factor?


To achieve the impossible you must attempt the absurd

Offline

#8 2002-06-04 20:12:53

Shaun Barrett
Member
From: Cairns, Queensland, Australia
Registered: 2001-12-28
Posts: 2,843

Re: CO2-->CO/O2 + H2O2 (possibly even a little c12h26) - Robert Zubrin and GUTH Venus

bradguth must have put a lot of work into his hypotheses, judging by the volume of stuff he's putting out about it!
   I'm with Canth. I simply can't see any indication of artificiality in these radar images of Venus either.
   What kind of liquid are the Venusians supposed to be storing in their reservoirs anyway? Surely bradguth understands the temperature on Venus is over 450 deg.C !
   Call me insensitive if you like but I think bradguth needs to get out more.
                                    smile


The word 'aerobics' came about when the gym instructors got together and said: If we're going to charge $10 an hour, we can't call it Jumping Up and Down.   - Rita Rudner

Offline

#9 2002-06-05 02:46:50

Phobos
Member
Registered: 2002-01-02
Posts: 1,103

Re: CO2-->CO/O2 + H2O2 (possibly even a little c12h26) - Robert Zubrin and GUTH Venus

Oh my god! I thought Brad was just designing blimps to fly around in the Venusian atmosphere, I didn't know he was defending the idea that there was intelligent life on Venus!  If he's right I sure as heck hope the Venusians are content just flying their blimps around and not conquering Earth!  Anything that can survive on Venus is definately going to kick our A$$es.   :0

Anyways, you gotta love how paranoid and delusional Brad is.  I can't stop laughing whenever he blasts NASA for trying
to cover up his amazing "discovery."  I copied the following directly off his website:

Whatever the cause(s), this "GUTH Venus" discovery has received nearly as much (perhaps more) damage control then all of those Apollo missions. Am I impressed?, you bet! and, as a result of my discovery receiving the same degree of unscientific yet orchestrated bashings, NASA and their communities of moles have merely peaked my interest all the more, as it seems, they are of the only worthy power-group(s) attempting to sidetrack and disqualify this discovery and, are those obviously closely associated and thereby formally tied into NASA's potentially lethal "nondisclosure" policy, exactly as what's been backing the Apollo stance and of many other questionable NSA/DoD partner involvements.

Yep you gotta watch out for those NASA moles.  Maybe Shaun can loan Brad his metal helmet so he can pick up on those NASA thought waves.  I almost feel sorry for Brad.  Someone as delusional and paranoid as he is really needs help.


To achieve the impossible you must attempt the absurd

Offline

#10 2002-06-05 10:52:47

Josh Cryer
Administrator
Registered: 2001-09-29
Posts: 3,828

Re: CO2-->CO/O2 + H2O2 (possibly even a little c12h26) - Robert Zubrin and GUTH Venus

Tee hee, no need to be too negative. Some people like to dream about these things. Hey, floating stuff in Venus' atmosphere is a cool dream, eh?

I think Brad could be a troll, though. Fire breating dragons? C'mon. smile


Some useful links while MER are active. Offical site NASA TV JPL MER2004 Text feed
--------
The amount of solar radiation reaching the surface of the earth totals some 3.9 million exajoules a year.

Offline

#11 2002-06-05 19:56:22

Shaun Barrett
Member
From: Cairns, Queensland, Australia
Registered: 2001-12-28
Posts: 2,843

Re: CO2-->CO/O2 + H2O2 (possibly even a little c12h26) - Robert Zubrin and GUTH Venus

I'm surprised at you, Phobos!
   Surely you must know my metal helmet is essential to KEEP OUT the malignant NASA thought waves which would otherwise control my mind!!
   It seems that your mind is DECAYING, Phobos ... another aspect of NASA's brain-washing plan!  I implore you, Phobos, get a metal helmet NOW!   Before it's too late!!!
                                     sad


The word 'aerobics' came about when the gym instructors got together and said: If we're going to charge $10 an hour, we can't call it Jumping Up and Down.   - Rita Rudner

Offline

#12 2002-06-05 20:33:03

Phobos
Member
Registered: 2002-01-02
Posts: 1,103

Re: CO2-->CO/O2 + H2O2 (possibly even a little c12h26) - Robert Zubrin and GUTH Venus

Sorry Shaun, I momentarily let my mental guard down and those NASA moles took over my mind to see if they could convince you to give up your metal helmet. Next time I won't be so sloppy. sad  And maybe Josh is right, we're being to hard on Brad.  After all, he's got all those NASA moles to put up with. sad


To achieve the impossible you must attempt the absurd

Offline

#13 2002-06-11 18:50:29

Tom Jolly
Member
Registered: 2002-05-05
Posts: 40

Re: CO2-->CO/O2 + H2O2 (possibly even a little c12h26) - Robert Zubrin and GUTH Venus

Well, I have to give bradguth credit on one (and only one) point; I just checked here;

http://www-star.stanford.edu/projects/mgs/profile.html

and noticed that at an elevation of about 55 km, Venus's atmosphere sports an Earthly temperature of about 20C and a pressure of about 1 Barr. And, thanks to a horrendous pressure gradient there, it'd be pretty easy to live there. Of course, down on the surface it would kill you. I'd heard the whole argument about hydrogen being dissociated from water from solar energy, and the readings that indicate there's not any water at all there, but based on the temperature and pressure gradient, I have to say that's a little surprising. It wouldn't shock me to find out that there IS a lot of water there and that there was something wrong with our reading technique, but I find that hard to believe.

I tend to doubt most of Brad's other conjectures, though. If there's any carbon-based life on Venus, it better be floating in the atmosphere already. Plus, he should realize that anthropomorphizing plate tectonic features is a pretty useless effort. OTOH, I'd love to see someone drop a blimp in there and take some photos, if there's enough useful light down there. It might be pitch black under all that cloud cover.

And even if there IS a mile-long bridge, that doesn't mean it ain't natural, Brad. We have some nice natural bridges here on Earth, too, despite the higher gravity. I wouldn't put too much of my soul into interpreting NASA radar images; the detail isn't *that* good.

Offline

#14 2002-06-11 21:25:32

Phobos
Member
Registered: 2002-01-02
Posts: 1,103

Re: CO2-->CO/O2 + H2O2 (possibly even a little c12h26) - Robert Zubrin and GUTH Venus

I'd love to see someone drop a blimp in there and take some photos, if there's enough useful light down there. It might be pitch black under all that cloud cover.

I imagine there would be enough light considering that the Soviet Venera Venus probes were able to shoot some photos before they succumbed to the pressure and heat.   You might need a sensitive camera though that can work in low-light conditions.


To achieve the impossible you must attempt the absurd

Offline

#15 2002-06-22 13:07:41

Palomar
Member
From: USA
Registered: 2002-05-30
Posts: 9,734

Re: CO2-->CO/O2 + H2O2 (possibly even a little c12h26) - Robert Zubrin and GUTH Venus

Sorry Shaun, I momentarily let my mental guard down and those NASA moles took over my mind to see if they could convince you to give up your metal helmet. Next time I won't be so sloppy. sad  And maybe Josh is right, we're being to hard on Brad.  After all, he's got all those NASA moles to put up with. sad

*Phobos, you and Shaun just gave me the best laugh I've had in weeks!  You guys had me laughing so hard that I had tears going down my cheeks.  big_smile

--Cindy


We all know those Venusians: Doing their hair in shock waves, smoking electrical coronas, wearing Van Allen belts and resting their tiny elbows on a Geiger counter...

--John Sladek (The New Apocrypha)

Offline

#16 2002-06-22 14:42:30

Phobos
Member
Registered: 2002-01-02
Posts: 1,103

Re: CO2-->CO/O2 + H2O2 (possibly even a little c12h26) - Robert Zubrin and GUTH Venus

smile


To achieve the impossible you must attempt the absurd

Offline

#17 2002-07-03 12:03:14

Canth
Member
Registered: 2002-04-21
Posts: 126

Re: CO2-->CO/O2 + H2O2 (possibly even a little c12h26) - Robert Zubrin and GUTH Venus

Floating cities on venus really aren't a bad Idea. I could also conceive of floating venusian life forms simmilar to Arthur C.Clark's hypothesized floating life in the atmosphere of a gas giant. I doubt that they exist but I wouldn't feel as if my worldveiw had been overturned if we found some. More to the point I think by our current methods we are incapable of detecting any venusian life. I hope if any is found it gets brought to the attention of the appropriate athorities. The new mars webboards are not an appropriate athority.

Offline

#18 2002-07-06 15:02:35

Phobos
Member
Registered: 2002-01-02
Posts: 1,103

Re: CO2-->CO/O2 + H2O2 (possibly even a little c12h26) - Robert Zubrin and GUTH Venus

I'm not so sure about that.  The proper athorities you may be thinking about would most likely put a straight-jacket on you and send you to the local loonie bin.  At least here they'll be people that will believe you... you may still end up in a loony bin but we'll believe you.

Yeah, screw the proper authorities.  If they show up to put us in chains and clamps we'll just kindly shove them into that little chest you have beneath your name and throw the key away. smile


To achieve the impossible you must attempt the absurd

Offline

#19 2017-05-17 23:24:46

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 10,650

Re: CO2-->CO/O2 + H2O2 (possibly even a little c12h26) - Robert Zubrin and GUTH Venus

surprise surprise not... another old topic being recently revisited

Offline

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB