Industrial Plan for Mars - the first 20 years.

louis · 2017-05-05 18:06:21

PART 1

MARS INDUSTRIAL PLAN

OUTLINE

This plan covers the first 20 years of settlement as it grows from an initial six people to 100 residents. Year 1 denotes the beginning of human settlement.
By the Year 20, annual usage of mass (excluding rockets, water, air and heaped regolith in construction) will be approximately 500 tonnes of which only 5% will be imported from Earth (excluding rockets) and which would not affect the settlement’s ability to be self-sufficient. With gas recycling, air production is estimated to be around 300 tonnes per annum. Water usage is estimated at 5000 tonnes per annum (this would be much larger without water recycling).
Overarching framework:

Install energy and energy storage systems that meet the needs of settlement. These will be gradually augmented.

Put in place life support systems (water, heating, electrical distribution)
Identify key material locations. These also will gradually be extended.

Develop a full range of industrial processes that will allow the Mars community to produce the products it needs e.g. home utensils, farm tools, electric lighting and cabling, solar reflectors, steam engines, PV panels, laptops, clothing, hygiene products, rocket fuel and ultimately rockets themselves.

Create Mars ISRU farming capacity, the ability for the community to grow their own food and produce useful products.

General methodology.

In order to achieve its industrial objectives, the community will need to extract materials from the atmosphere (e.g. water) or at the surface (e.g. water and iron ore). It will need to isolate or produce oxygen, hydrogen, nitrogen, carbon-based substances from water and from the atmosphere. It will need to identify Mars ISRU sources of a range of metals and materials (iron, aluminium, magnesium, titanium, basalt, silica) and chemicals (ammonia, bromine, calcium carbonate, chlorine, fluorine, iodine, phosphorus, sodium, and sulphur) . Another key requirement will be the creation of a range of hydrocarbon materials beginning with methane.

The community will rely heavily on robots and automated systems, owing to the amount of work to be undertaken. Examples of work undertaken robotically or automatically will include: laying out PV Panelling, surface mining for water and metal ores, atmospheric extraction, air production and monitoring and temperature monitoring, exploration for ore fields, various manufacturing processes, monitoring plant growth and applying food and water to plants.

After 20 years the community will be able to supply its own energy generation, electricity, power storage, food, chemical batteries, clothes, electronics, computers, domestic goods, hygiene products, rocket fuel, rockets, and surface transport vehicles (although some of these will be in the early stages of development).

In addition, to the work undertaken by the Mars community itself, there will be dedicated teams of advisors on Earth dealing with particular subject areas (e.g. 3D printing, mechanics, robots, chemical analysis, materials purification etc). The teams will continuously assess and analyse data and give advice on next steps. A central team at Mars Mission Control will monitor implementation of the industrial plan and trouble-shoot where necessary.

The first mission to Mars will carry the “Domesday Book” (Process Compilation and Index – PCI) on two separate laptops to be held in separate locations. The PCI will be a detailed compendium of all information on mining, refining, manufacturing and agricultural processes and will include a digital library of “how to” videos relating to industrial and agricultural processes, detailed patents, specialised textbooks, treatises on physics, chemistry, and geology, operational manuals FAQs and so on. This will at an early stage ensure the community “information self-sufficiency” although in the first 20 years, it is not expected the PCI will be directly consulted on a regular basis. The community will be working to a detailed plan produced by the Mars Consortium which will include its own detailed specifications, videos, guidance notes and so on relevant to the particular tasks the community will be tackling.

In terms of the settlement’s growth, the plan will ensure that sufficient energy generation, habitat, life support, living materials and food resources are in place for the next phase of expansion of the population.

Once the Year 20 objectives have been attained, the settlement will move rapidly towards complete ISRU production of all industrial machines (including 3D printers and CNC machines, and all the automated small scale manufacturing machines that have been imported. At the point real self-sufficiency as opposed to potential self-sufficiency will be within reach of the settlement, however there is unlikely to be any point at which real 100% self-sufficiency is implemented in the absence of a planet-wide disaster on Earth.

A note on water usage: if the settlement’s water usage was on a par with current usage in the UK (including the vast amounts of water used in industry) then water usage in a settlement of 100 would be a huge 168,000 tonnes pa. However, it is assumed that water recycling will be pursued vigorously on Mars for reasons of efficiency (on Mars, energy can be abundant on a per capita basis, but not water in terms of it being an easily accessible product). Water usage will be avoided wherever possible - for instance in terms of making bricks or for cooling. It is also considered this need to avoid excessive water usage will favour hydroponic agriculture.

THE PLAN’S OVERALL OBJECTIVE
To provide the Mars colony with a self-sustainable industrial and agricultural infrastructure by Year 20.

Last edited by louis (2017-05-05 18:30:10)

louis · 2017-05-05 18:07:58

PART 2

PRE-LANDING PROGRAMME (TEN YEAR LEAD IN TO YEAR 1)

The pre-landing programme will have the following essential elements:

1. Landing of PV power system which will be automatically laid out.
2. Landing of chemical batteries with total 166 KWh capacity (about 1000 Kgs)..
3. Landing of an atmospheric extractor machine (885 kgs) which will produce 45 kgs of water per sol.
4. Laying out of the landing zone area, which is likely to serve as Mars’s first spaceport.
5. Landing of a CO2 extractor extracting CO2 from the atmosphere and Moxie style machine to convert this into ???
6. Landing of transponders to facilitate accurate landings.
7. Manufacture of methane from hydrogen and CO2.
8. Landing of inflatable farm hab, industrial hab, 3D printer machines, CNC machine, solar concentrator furnace.
9. Landing of 3 Workhorse small Robot Rovers that can be used for mining.

YEAR 1 to 2

Key objectives:

To provide failsafe life support.
To begin basic industrial activities (in many cases using imported metal and plastic powders) and to create a store of metals and other materials.
Undertake construction of an experimental ISRU accommodation hab.
Undertake some artificially lit indoor farming.
Commence rocket fuel production.

Key plan elements

Surface mining of iron, magnesium, aluminium and similar ores, together with water ice, silica and basalt. Road trails will be cleared to where these materials are located in suitable concentrations.
Use of 3D printers to print spare parts.
Use of 3D printers to make farm tools, kitchen tools, plastic piping for internal plumbing use and other useful products.
Experimental use of small solar concentrator furnace.
Making of Mars bricks using the compression technique.
Expand methane production to ensure potential maximal power supply.
Make rocket fuel at a location some distance from the main hab.
Manufacture oxygen from water. Combine with other gases to make analogue air.
Use of the small farm hab to grow salad vegetables.

Further pre-landing of supplies, rovers, and more industrial machines will take place in the run up to the next phase. A larger farm hab will be landed. A specialised metal processing hab will be established. Human landings will be on a two year cycle and will be preceded by pre-landing of additional supplies and equipment. Inventory figures below are for final year of the phase being reviewed while tonnage figures are averaged over the period).

louis · 2017-05-05 18:09:10

PART 3

YEAR 3-4

Key objectives

Develop smelting and metal carbonyl technologies.
Develop ability to produce polymers.
Develop ability to make metal and plastic powders on Mars.
Develop ability to form basalt into useful products.
Expand areas of exploration to identify all key material locations.
Develop construction capacity.
Commence manufacture of chemical batteries.
Commence manufacture of electric motors.
Commence glass manufacture.

Key plan elements

The industrial hab will be used to take forward polymer production. This will involve automated production of ethane and syngas, using water and atmospheric CO2.
Solar reflectors to be installed. Robot with mounted furnace to provide smelting facilities. Small scale electric smelting will also be begun within the industrial hab.
Use of miniature robot rocket hopper to explore and identify new key material locations.
Expend indoor farming to include grains and fruits.
Produce large quantities of Mars bricks and cement.
Import airlocks for use with Mars ISRU constructed habs.
Locate rarer materials such as calcium carbonate and gold.
Commence ISRU electrolysis.
A versatile automated glass forming machine will be installed in an Industrial Hab. This will allow production of glass bottles and jars, glass ware, glass receptacles for experimentation and analysis and glass window panels.

Inventory

Population 12
Annual tonnage mass produced – 30 tonnes.
Imported tonnage: 40 tonnes pa.
Robot rovers – 7
HP (Human passenger) Rovers - 2
Farm habs – 2
Industrial habs – 2
3D printers – 5
CNC machines – 3
Other machines – 6
Solar concentrator furnace – 1
Power output: 200 Kws constant average.

louis · 2017-05-05 18:10:15

PART 4

YEAR 5-8

Key objectives

Establish dedicated University Research Centre with its own lab habs and accommodation labs. The URC will work in tandem with the wider Mars community on such matters as chemical analysis, medical monitoring and so on.
Commence Mars soil production (take Mars ISRU suitable regolith and sand and mixing with organic waste, artificial fertilisers and micro-organisms to create a good soil for plant growth).
Continue expanding Mars indoor farming, to include useful non-food crops like bamboo and hemp.
Commence manufacture of prototype Mars ISRU rover.
Continuing expanding construction capacity.

Key plan elements

Manufacture steel supports for use in construction.
Establish sub-bases on Mars as necessary to surface-mine the less common but necessary materials. These sub-bases will be temporary, the aim being to collect a store of the material that will last for several years and return it to the main base. Such sub-bases will become a common feature of human life on Mars from now on. Eventually some will become permanent bases.
Build and operate a Mars Soil Production Facility. Will mix sand, clay, water, natural and artificial fertiliser, ground mineral rocks, and micro-organisms, to make a plant-friendly soil.
Design and build first human passenger rover (single passenger for moving around the base from hab to hab): main elements being electric motor, chemical battery, suspension, braking system, steel tube frame, pressure cabin, seating, internal life support system. Steering system may be radio controlled (like a small game console). Will be 95% Mars ISRU by mass.
Expand farm habs to allow for non-food crop growing.

Inventory

Population 36
Annual tonnage mass produced – 120 tonnes.
Imported tonnage: 60 tonnes pa.
Robot rovers – 20
HP (Human passenger) Rovers - 5
Farm habs – 10 (total area 13,000 sq. metres)
Industrial habs – 5
3D printers – 10
CNC machines – 9
Other industrial machines – 16
Solar concentrator furnace – 3
Power output: 600 Kws constant average.

louis · 2017-05-05 18:11:49

PART 5

YEAR 9-12

Key objectives

Establish manufacturing line for rovers.
Commence electronics manufacture: silicon chips, integrated circuit boards and computers.
Manufacture first Mars-made air locks (honeycomb aluminium).
Increase food processing capability.

Key plan elements

A dedicated hab to be established for production of Mars ISRU Rovers. Initial production quota will be five per annum by Year 15.
A clean room hab to be established for electronics manufacturing. First project will be to produce Life Support System computer control systems.
A dedicated aluminium production and processing facility to be established. First aluminium honeycomb air lock to be manufactured by end of Year 12.
A new food processing centre in its own hab will be established and will be used as a food warehouse as well.

Inventory

Population 50
Annual tonnage mass produced – 200 tonnes.
Imported tonnage: 70 tonnes pa.
Robot rovers – 21
HP (Human passenger) Rovers - 8
Farm habs – 20 indoor (total area 25,000 sq. metres)
2 ambient light (total area 2,000 sq. metres)
Industrial habs – 10
3D printers – 12
CNC machines – 15
Other industrial machines – 25
Solar concentrator furnace – 4
Power output: 1000 Kws constant average.

louis · 2017-05-05 18:14:24

PART 6

YEAR 13-16

Key objectives

Produce Mars ISRU first human passenger rocket hopper.
Major expansion of rocket fuel production.
Produce first Mars ISRU photovoltaic panels.
Big increase in food production

Key plan elements

The HP Rocket Hopper will be a scaled up version of the robot hopper with a pressurised cabin (using the cabin design for pressurised rovers).

PV Panels will be produced in the clean room Hab.

There will be a big expansion of food producing habs to reduce dependence on food imports.

Inventory

Population 84
Annual tonnage mass produced – 400 tonnes.
Imported tonnage: 35 tonnes pa.
Robot rovers – 30
HP (Human passenger) Rovers - 9
Farm habs – 45 indoor (total area 55,000 sq. metres)
5 ambient light (total area 5,000 sq. metres)
Industrial habs – 15
3D printers – 16
CNC machines – 20
Other industrial machines – 45
Solar concentrator furnace – 6
Power output: 1600 Kws constant average.

louis · 2017-05-05 18:16:13

PART 7

YEAR 17-20

Key objectives

Produce first rocket to orbit.
Initiate first human pregnancy on Mars by end of Year 20.
Produce design for first Mars ISRU Space Suit.
Commence the In Situ Pharmaceuticals Programme (ISPP). This will be a 30 year programme.
Commence the Mars Surgical Programme (MSP). This will be a 50 year programme.
Commence a ten year Electronics-Photovoltaics ISRU Machines Programme

Key plan elements

Commence the Human Procreation Programme (HPP). Initially this will monitor foetal development in primates. Introduced to the colony, before a human pregnancy is attempted in Year 20. Prior to the first human pregnancy primate pregnancies will be attempted to see if they lead to healthy births.
Connected with the HPP will be the insertion into Mars orbit of a tethered One G orbital craft where women in the early stages of pregnancy will live and the creation of a One G centrifuge facility on the Mars surface where pregnant women can experience One G for large parts of the sol. In addition there will be a dedicated Human Procreation Hab established at the base with full medical facilities catering for ante natal, delivery and post natal services.
The first MRTO – Mars Rocket to Orbit to be produced will be similar to Amardillo’s MOD rocket: simple steel framed vehicles with gas
cylinders/spheres and combustion chambers. The first rockets will attempt to take cargo to LMO.
As part of the ISPP start up, the Mars community will begin to manufacture a range of simple medicinal products such as basic analgesics, steroid creams and so on.
The MSP will begin the task of developing ISRU capacity for surgery e.g. anaesthesia equipment, surgical tools, X ray machines and so on.
The Mars ISRU Space Suit programme will produce by Year 20 a design for Mars ISRU production of a space suit which will go into production three years later, after which importation of space suits should cease.

The Electronics-Photovoltaics ISRU Machines Programme, with an end date of Year 30, will seek to replicate all the machinery brought from Earth to produce silicon chips, printed circuit boards, computers and other electronics so that the Mars community has stand alone capability in all these areas.

Inventory

Population 100
Annual tonnage mass produced – 475 tonnes.
Imported tonnage: 25 tonnes pa.
Robot rovers – 30
HP (Human passenger) Rovers - 12
Farm habs – 80 indoor (total area 105,000 sq. metres)
10 ambient light (total area 15,000 sq. metres)
Industrial habs – 20
3D printers – 16
CNC machines – 25
Other industrial machines – 65
Solar concentrator furnace – 8
Power output: 2000 Kws constant average.

louis · 2017-05-05 18:17:25

PART 8

SECTOR ANALYSIS

By Year 20 we can undertake a sector analysis of the nascent Mars economy:

Aerospace - Rocket hoppers and orbital rockets are now being produced. The base will have a dedicated Spaceport. A range of rocket fuels, such as LOX and methane will be produced.

Agriculture - A full range of food crops will be produced: salad vegetables, grains, fruit, beans, pulses etc. No animal farming will yet be undertaken but arrangements are in hand to import guinea pigs as the first farmed animals. Fish farming is not yet being attempted owing to the need to restrict water usage.

Chemical industry – The community’s ability to process and manipulate a wide range of materials will be in place. The settlement can produce Mars ISRU feedstock for plastics. Very pure silicon can be produced for electronics, computers and PV panels.

Computers - The settlement is now able to produce basic computers which it is applying to life support systems. Software development will follow.

Construction - Using ISRU bricks, cement, concrete, glass, 3D inks, Mars dust-sourced “rubber” and steel frames, the Mars settlement is able to construct its own habs for accommodation, farming and industry.

Domestic goods - The settlement is able to produce refrigerators, freezers, ovens, cookers, hobs, plumbing parts, kitchen utensils, cooking ware, basic furniture, hygienic products (such as soap and toothpaste).

Education and research - An Earth-based University has established a Research Centre on Mars which is part of the base and forms an important part of the economy.

Electrical - The settlement is producing a range of chemical batteries, some of which are being used to power the Base Zone rovers and to even out power over a sol. The settlement is now able to produce cable – plastic covered copper wiring. Most copper wiring is being produced from recycled materials.

Energy - Mars now has a well developed energy sector based on PV power systems, sloar reflectors, steam or CO2 engines, chemical batteries, heat reserves and methane production. Virtually all elements of the energy system can now be produced with ISRU on Mars, although PV is still being imported from Earth.

Food processing – Food processing is becoming a more important activity. Some chilled meals and prepared salads are being produced. Nearly all food processing is automated. Food is refrigerated, turned into powder form, and frozen.

Life Support - Life support (water, air and temperature control) is a key industry that generates income e.g. through sale to Universities, TV companies and space agencies.

Metal industry - This is an important sector, producing steel supports for construction, steel tools for farming, steel bars and suspension springs for rovers. Steel is used to produce gas cylinders and gas tanks. Aluminium is used in construction of airlocks and pressure cabins.

Pharmaceuticals - This industry is at quite a primitive level. The community is only just beginning to produce basic medicines and other health products such as paracetamol, some vitamins and minerals

Textiles - Basic clothing – cotton T shirts and trousers - are being produced. Plans are in place for production of Mars ISRU space suits.

Transport - Mars is now able to produce its own rovers rather than having to import them. Small pressurised Rovers are used to transfer from one hab to another with ease (it taking only five minutes to exit through air lock chambers. The vehicles are kept small in order that airlocks can be on a small scale as well. Longer range rovers use methane and oxygen as their power systems.

Water - Water is mined at large glaciers and transported in robot rovers to the Base where it is stored in shaded and regolith covered storage pits. Water recycling is a feature of nearly all processes.

Last edited by louis (2017-05-05 18:18:44)

louis · 2017-05-05 18:27:47

Some observations...

I found this rather a useful exercise. Obviously it's only a sketchy outline of what a plan might look like. But it helped clarify my thinking.

The more you investigate on Google, the NASA website and You Tube, the more you find industrial processes that are almost fully automated or could be made full automated.

Building a rover on Mars, especially a basic one for transport around the base, is not in my view as demanding a task as I thought, having seen kids put together go karts on You Tube! Base rovers need not be that sophisticated.

Whilst I was trying to be fair to ambient light farming, the more I looked at it in this context, the less I became convinced about it. When you look at it in the context of a coherent industrial development, it seems to me it would involve an enormous expenditure of labour and other resources on Mars in terms of construction, management, soil making and water usage. I can't see how that can be much justified in the early settlement period, and so have given it a minimal role.

Although my industrial plan is focussed on PV energy, you could of course adapt it for nuclear power.

Anyway if anyone has suggestions for improvements to the plan, I will be interested to hear them.

Dook · 2017-05-05 18:46:52

With gas recycling air production is estimated to be 300 tonnes per year? How are you going to recycle nitrogen?

Install energy and energy storage systems? An energy storage system is a battery bank, how are you going to keep the batteries from freezing at night?

What vehicle will burn methane? Where are you going to get the oxygen from to burn with the methane? Are they going to be used in an internal combustion engine or rocket engine?

Laying out a landing zone? Dragon has a 6.2 mile landing accuracy. Are you going to clear a circular area that is 6.2 miles across?

Landing transponders? Their batteries will freeze at night and the batteries will run out of power by the time your next rocket comes in.

Manufacture of methane from hydrogen and CO2? You didn't say which landing had the hydrogen on it.

Landing of an inflatable farm hab? Dragon can only put 2 tonnes on Mars so it will be really small, maybe 10' x 10'.

With the Dragon all of these things would be scattered over at least a 6.2 mile area.

Provide failsafe life support? That's not something you do on Mars. That's something you do way before you ever send people to Mars. Also, there's no such thing as having something be failsafe, especially when it comes to space travel.

Undertake construction of an ISRU hab? With what materials?

Undertake artificiall lit indoor farming? You mean in the 10'x10' farm hab?

Commence rocket fuel production? You mean with the hydrogen that you turned in to methane?

Use 3D printer to make spare parts, farm tools, kitchen tools, and plastic piping for internal plumbing? What is the difference in weight between a spoon made on Mars from powder and a spoon shipped from the Earth alread pre-made?

They're the same. So, you didn't save anything by making the spoon on Mars but for some reason you think you did.

Dook · 2017-05-05 18:48:47

Also, if we have robots that can do all these things, why send people there?

RobS · 2017-05-05 20:51:47

This looks generally good, Louis. My comments are two fold:

1. Experimentation will play a huge role and what will be done in years 5-8 will be very much shaped by the discoveries in years 3-4, which in turn will be shaped by the initial discoveries in years 1-2. Hence it is very hard to predict what each subsequent period will encompass. Perhaps that's why you didn't carry all the way through to year 20!

2. It looks like your goals will absorb the entire crew's time, but perhaps a quarter or a third of the crew will need to be devoted to maintenance, and maybe another quarter or a third to exploration and other scientific goals.

louis · 2017-05-06 05:18:51

Rob,

Agree on your comment no. 1. This would have to be a "shape-shifting" plan. That might sound contradictory but the purpose of the plan would be to determine the daily work details for all the people working on Mars (excluding the university researchers who will have their own priorities) and so a plan, even if it does evolve on a yearly, perhaps even a monthly basis, would be important. We might for example find it impossible to locate a copper source in the desired time frame. That will mean we have to continue importing large amounts from Earth, so the import tonnage will be higher than expected. Alternatively we might find that by the time we get to Mars 3D printing of circuit boards and silicon chips is a well established technology, in which case we can easily make computers on Mars, and won't need to import those. BTW, I did go up to Year 20 (see Part 7) but not beyond, as I think it is indeed very difficult to see how things will progress beyond that.

On point 2, they will be busy, no doubt about it! I suppose in terms of pure exploration and science, I am thinking the University team will take the lead. I didn't given any numbers for that but I suppose I was thinking they might have a team of 20 on the planet by Year 20.

Machine maintenance I believe is a key role for humans in modern factory settings where so many of the processes are automated but where machines do go wrong, or automated control systems go wrong. So yes, I agree maintenance engineering (including 3D printing of parts) would be a key role. I would be surprised if 40-50 of your 100 strong community is basically monitoring and maintaining production and manufacturing processes.

Health and safety will also be an important element on Mars, even more so than on Earth. I would think for any industrial process being undertaken, you want a risk assessment being undertaken beforehand (will have been done on Earth of course, but you need something on the ground as well) and a couple of people on standby. I am thinking there should be at least 3-5% of your people dedicated to a kind of combined health and safety, food safety, psychological assessment of people, life support monitoring, medical emergency and fire-fighter role. Perhaps they would be called the Safety Team.

We will need experts in farming and food processing. I would have thought by Year 20 at least 10 people would be working on that.

You'll probably require a specialist mining team of up to 5.

You will need a base commander, and they will need a couple of assistants.

RobS wrote:

This looks generally good, Louis. My comments are two fold:
1. Experimentation will play a huge role and what will be done in years 5-8 will be very much shaped by the discoveries in years 3-4, which in turn will be shaped by the initial discoveries in years 1-2. Hence it is very hard to predict what each subsequent period will encompass. Perhaps that's why you didn't carry all the way through to year 20!
2. It looks like your goals will absorb the entire crew's time, but perhaps a quarter or a third of the crew will need to be devoted to maintenance, and maybe another quarter or a third to exploration and other scientific goals.

louis · 2017-05-06 08:39:19

Dook wrote:

With gas recycling air production is estimated to be 300 tonnes per year? How are you going to recycle nitrogen?

Maybe I am misreading something...we don't recycle the nitrogen do we? We take out the CO2 and substitute oxygen.

Dook wrote:

Install energy and energy storage systems? An energy storage system is a battery bank, how are you going to keep the batteries from freezing at night?

Keep them in a hab. Probably the industrial hab.

Dook wrote:

What vehicle will burn methane? Where are you going to get the oxygen from to burn with the methane? Are they going to be used in an internal combustion engine or rocket engine?

Get the oxygen from water. An ICE is a possibility. But ICEs are very complex, aren't they and keeping them warm might be more complex. I don't know. I am wondering about possibily a methane powered generator which then powers a battery which powers the vehicle. I'd have to look into that more but obviously an ICE Is a possibility, since that is what we have on Earth - plenty of ICE vehicles run on methane.

Dook wrote:

Laying out a landing zone? Dragon has a 6.2 mile landing accuracy. Are you going to clear a circular area that is 6.2 miles across?

I don't think that will be an issue with retro-rocket landers and transponder guidance.

Dook wrote:

Landing transponders? Their batteries will freeze at night and the batteries will run out of power by the time your next rocket comes in.

Solar powered batteries with micro-heaters. Will be packed in aerogel or similar. They don't need to operate every sol. They can be timed to come on at relevant times.

Dook wrote:

Manufacture of methane from hydrogen and CO2? You didn't say which landing had the hydrogen on it.

I don't think hydrogen is a problem. First we extract water from the atmosphere (we can garner 45 kgs per sol in summer from an 885 kg machine) and then we used automated electrolysis to split some of that water into hydrogen and oxygen. Then we combine the hydrogen with CO2 extracted from the atmosphere to make methane. All these processes can be automated and carried out by robot landers.

Dook wrote:

Landing of an inflatable farm hab? Dragon can only put 2 tonnes on Mars so it will be really small, maybe 10' x 10'.

I believe the Red Dragon is slated to take 5 tonnes to Mars. But in my view, yes, the first farm hab landed as part of Mission One will be small. That's of no consequence. This is a slow build over two decades to food self-sufficiency.

Dook wrote:

With the Dragon all of these things would be scattered over at least a 6.2 mile area.

With transponders pre landed I doubt it.

Dook wrote:

Provide failsafe life support? That's not something you do on Mars. That's something you do way before you ever send people to Mars. Also, there's no such thing as having something be failsafe, especially when it comes to space travel.

Nothing is completely failsafe, it's a term. But I think if you have two layers of back up, then you can be reasonably assured that you have a failsafe system.

Dook wrote:

Undertake construction of an ISRU hab? With what materials?

Mars bricks, Mars basalt, Mars concrete, Mars cement and Mars produced steel supports.

Dook wrote:

Undertake artificiall lit indoor farming? You mean in the 10'x10' farm hab?

I mean in most of the farm habs. Initially all the lighting and cabling will be imported but eventually the settlement will be able to produce that. Things like growing trays can be produced at an early stage.

Dook wrote:

Commence rocket fuel production? You mean with the hydrogen that you turned in to methane?

As I understand there are a number of potential fuels. Methane is a potential propellant itself.

Dook wrote:

Use 3D printer to make spare parts, farm tools, kitchen tools, and plastic piping for internal plumbing? What is the difference in weight between a spoon made on Mars from powder and a spoon shipped from the Earth alread pre-made?

No difference, but powders are more easily packed with no loss of volume to the non-spoon parts, an important consideration when packing cargo for delivery to Mars. Also, we might lose a spoon on Mars or it might get broken for some reason. If we take along a spare of everything, that's a lot of additional mass. Easier to make sure we can make the spoon or pretty much any other small item on Mars.

Dave_Duca · 2017-05-06 09:26:16

Excellent Posting Louis....
You presented many ideals WITHOUT ANY QUESTION. ( I like that - positive progress - thank you )

youtube_dot_com/watch?v=U1vbAuX1g9w
The link here is to remind people of what the premise of Mars Direct is all about.
( search up - "The Mars Underground" circa: 2005 or, 2007 or, 2011 - take your pick )

If people do not, or refuse to see this, then their afterthoughts of Thinkie-Think enters the forum.

Let's start with the ISRU... repeat: I S R U
Route the ISRU Plant's Fuel & O2 to run an actual engine that actually turns a generator to higher power output.

Then, apply the techniques of Von Neumann's Universal Constructor (circa: 1940) and implement
the Sand Dune / Adhesive methods of 3D printing ( just like Voxeljet dot com )

This is an excellent start Louis!

And, I wish more people would watch "The Mars Underground".

Let me say that again --- THE MARS UNDERGROUND

Oldfart1939 · 2017-05-06 09:30:08

Once bulk Methane is available, there are several automated processes possible for conversion to higher molecular weight organic intermediates when Carbon Dioxide and Carbon Monoxide are also utilized. Ethane and ethylene are pretty straightforward, and using the proper catalysts, Benzene, Toluene, Naphthalene, Cyclohexane, and longer aliphatic hydrocarbons as well. The basis of a decent chemical industry is at hand, so that means Polycarbonate plastics, Polyethylene, Polypropylene, Nylon, as Acrylics are within reach.

The Carbon Monoxide is also available for metals refining through Carbonyls; i.e., Iron Carbonyl.

Louis, you're on the right track with your future planning, and that's GOOD. Put aside the sniping and negative comments of others and simply focus on the issues at hand.

Oldfart1939 · 2017-05-06 09:40:11

In regard to landing a Red Dragon spacecraft, I'm willing to bet it can be landed inside a <100 meter diameter circle after transponders are in place. Here on the Earth, that's how airliners are landed at the major airports; they auto-land using the WAAS system. WAAS = Wide Area Augmentation System. That a series of transponders at the airfields supplementary to GPS satellites. I'm probably pessimistic about the accuracy of landing, though. I used the 100 meter limit because the lander will undoubtedly have some sort of radar-based terrain analyzer on board in order to avoid landing on big rocks.

louis · 2017-05-06 16:15:57

I think we would take the cautious approach and lay out a 100 metre x 100 metre landing zone which would be cleared of rocks, boulders and stones by a small pre-landed robot rover with a cow catcher on the front. If there are any large boulders, we won't be able to move them and they won't be in the landing zone. The pre-landed rover(s) could also mark out the target landing area visually e.g. by using light coloured stones to create a target circle.

Oldfart1939 wrote:

In regard to landing a Red Dragon spacecraft, I'm willing to bet it can be landed inside a <100 meter diameter circle after transponders are in place. Here on the Earth, that's how airliners are landed at the major airports; they auto-land using the WAAS system. WAAS = Wide Area Augmentation System. That a series of transponders at the airfields supplementary to GPS satellites. I'm probably pessimistic about the accuracy of landing, though. I used the 100 meter limit because the lander will undoubtedly have some sort of radar-based terrain analyzer on board in order to avoid landing on big rocks.

louis · 2017-05-06 16:22:53

Although I don't pretend to understand all the chemistry it does seem like scaffold you build, starting with simpler hydrocarbons and developing more complex molecules. Thanks for that useful itemisation.

I am very much an issues person!

The thing about this site is that most contributors have very strong opinions and often a powerfully creative side to them. We are all good at putting forward our particular Marsview (I was going to say world view). I think through the friction of our competing views we generate heat but also some light. I have certainly learned a few things over the years here.

Oldfart1939 wrote:

Once bulk Methane is available, there are several automated processes possible for conversion to higher molecular weight organic intermediates when Carbon Dioxide and Carbon Monoxide are also utilized. Ethane and ethylene are pretty straightforward, and using the proper catalysts, Benzene, Toluene, Naphthalene, Cyclohexane, and longer aliphatic hydrocarbons as well. The basis of a decent chemical industry is at hand, so that means Polycarbonate plastics, Polyethylene, Polypropylene, Nylon, as Acrylics are within reach.
The Carbon Monoxide is also available for metals refining through Carbonyls; i.e., Iron Carbonyl.
Louis, you're on the right track with your future planning, and that's GOOD. Put aside the sniping and negative comments of others and simply focus on the issues at hand.

Last edited by louis (2017-05-06 16:43:34)

Oldfart1939 · 2017-05-06 17:04:51

Louis-
You rightly described the molecules I suggested as "ladders." In Organic Chemistry, we always are looking at ways to create Carbon-Carbon bonds as the skeleton of the molecule we intend to build. Most Organic Chem exams at he undergraduate level state that "starting with carbon compounds of 4 or fewer carbons , and the usual inorganic reagents, make XXX." Later on they may include Benzene as one of the starting points. The underlying point I was making, though, is the ability to create a viable chemical industry on the Red Planet. It won't be very sophisticated at the outset, but will provide many of the essentials for everyday life. Breathable air; Water; fertilizer; detergents for sanitation; rocket fuels. Later on there will be fibers and plastics for clothing and structures.

Most of my colleagues always joked about the perfect exam question: "given air, earth, fire , and water--create life." On Mars, we are darned close to doing that!

Last edited by Oldfart1939 (2017-05-06 17:05:37)

louis · 2017-05-06 17:17:45

I agree it won't be v. sophisticated at the outset but Mars development is going to be like an interacting double helix - there will be Mars ISRU but there will also be Earth importation...so your benzene will likely be there from the outset as an import just as 3D printers will be there at the outset even thought the initial Mars settlers won't be able to make them.

The other thing I keep trying to pull back to is that we need to get away from the image of huge factories on Earth...in the early settlement we are talking about tens or at most hundreds of people. They don't need millions or thousands or even hundreds of tonnes of stuff to survive...they just need tonnes! So everything has to be small scale. That's a challenge because it's not how we do things on Earth generally, but it is possible I believe.

Oldfart1939 wrote:

Louis-
You rightly described the molecules I suggested as "ladders." In Organic Chemistry, we always are looking at ways to create Carbon-Carbon bonds as the skeleton of the molecule we intend to build. Most Organic Chem exams at he undergraduate level state that "starting with carbon compounds of 4 or fewer carbons , and the usual inorganic reagents, make XXX." Later on they may include Benzene as one of the starting points. The underlying point I was making, though, is the ability to create a viable chemical industry on the Red Planet. It won't be very sophisticated at the outset, but will provide many of the essentials for everyday life. Breathable air; Water; fertilizer; detergents for sanitation; rocket fuels. Later on there will be fibers and plastics for clothing and structures.
Most of my colleagues always joked about the perfect exam question: "given air, earth, fire , and water--create life." On Mars, we are darned close to doing that!

Oldfart1939 · 2017-05-06 17:35:07

Louis-

In the chemical industry there are many levels of "making things." The starting point is nominally "laboratory scale," where processes are developed and demonstrated to work. My business specialized in "large laboratory scale" manufacturing, that is to say, multi kilograms of products. The largest vessels in use at that level tend to be in the 20 to 50 liter capacity. Next level, frequently skipped generally increases the scale of large lab scale by a factor of 2.5x to 5x. This is generally called Pilot Plant scale of operations, and is pretty cost effective way to get complicated product made without too much desperate financial risk. That would seem to be where we're headed initially. This scale requires small plant type reaction equipment (200 liter to 250 liter reactors), and will be where we can get a grip on the energetics of the operation.

Last edited by Oldfart1939 (2017-05-06 17:36:05)

louis · 2017-05-06 18:05:39

Well, I can't see any reason to disagree with you there. 200-250 litres (or 200-250 kgs if we are talking about water) does seem about the right sort of scale to me. At that sort of level, with a lot of materials, you can then store for future use. You might just do one batch. Seems the right sort of batch level we ought to be thinking about. We are out of the lab but not yet in the full scale factory area.

Oldfart1939 wrote:

Louis-
In the chemical industry there are many levels of "making things." The starting point is nominally "laboratory scale," where processes are developed and demonstrated to work. My business specialized in "large laboratory scale" manufacturing, that is to say, multi kilograms of products. The largest vessels in use at that level tend to be in the 20 to 50 liter capacity. Next level, frequently skipped generally increases the scale of large lab scale by a factor of 2.5x to 5x. This is generally called Pilot Plant scale of operations, and is pretty cost effective way to get complicated product made without too much desperate financial risk. That would seem to be where we're headed initially. This scale requires small plant type reaction equipment (200 liter to 250 liter reactors), and will be where we can get a grip on the energetics of the operation.

SpaceNut · 2017-05-06 19:59:14

Steps to making anything start from drawings or CAD to which materials are selected for the Prototype of which we put it through use and testing and possibly a new material is tried but in the end we continue on to the pilot phase of production meaning small quantity for use build and finally if not other changes are needed we are onto full production mode.

elderflower · 2017-05-07 12:41:42

We will need, I think, multipurpose manufacturing plant. These use fairly standard pressure vessels, stills, exchangers, pumps etc and can be reconfigured to meet the demands of a variety of processes. Of course some reactions need special items such as very high pressure vessels and exchangers and special pumps or compressors (eg ammonia manufacture), but a lot of things can be made in batches in reconfigurable plant using different reagents, catalysts and conditions.

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