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#76 2017-03-16 10:48:42

JohnX
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From: Thunder Bay
Registered: 2017-03-10
Posts: 76
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Re: Mapping a way forward

Here's a quick sketch of one possible Mars political structure for the early days. Use as a starting point? Fill in details?
MarsGovt1.jpg

Last edited by JohnX (2017-03-16 10:49:55)


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#77 2017-03-16 10:58:34

Scott Beach
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Registered: 2017-02-21
Posts: 132

Re: Mapping a way forward

JohnX wrote:
Tom Kalbfus wrote:

No they would just take it without consulting us.

Nobody's disputing that the US is the leader in space exploration and could do what it wanted. But I don't think even your own government would agree with snatching Mars, claiming sovereignty over it, without consulting rest-of-world.
The US stands to gain hugely anyway from its investments in space, just by going and building. You're welcome to plan your USA-Mars concepts but don't expect the rest of us to join in. Global cooperation looks like a saner option.

Tom: You can push and push and push for a United States of America-style government on Mars but that kind of proposal is premature by at least 100 years.  Let the Martians decide what kind of global/national government they want to have.  We should concentrate our efforts on "Mapping a way forward" (the name of this thread) that will help the would-be Martians of today to start building settlements soon. 

Trying to plan a United States of Mars at this point is just a waste of our time.


"It is possible to build a rational and humane culture completely free from the threat of supernatural restraints."  Arthur C. Clarke, The Songs of Distant Earth

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#78 2017-03-16 11:26:30

Scott Beach
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Registered: 2017-02-21
Posts: 132

Re: Mapping a way forward

JohnX wrote:

Here's a quick sketch of one possible Mars political structure for the early days. Use as a starting point? Fill in details?
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-saq_zaVi06A/ … sGovt1.jpg

John: I proposed that chapters of the Mars Society would be eligible to obtain Mars Settlement Permits from the Mars Secretariat.  I am trying to encourage would-be Martians to form face-to-face “moral communities”; i.e., groups of Mars Society members who get together occasionally or regularly to discuss “right” and “wrong” and who thereby develop a consensus about which direction constitutes “a way forward”. 

I therefore propose that “Nomads” be changed to “Mars Society Chapters” and that “Mars Consortium” be changed to “Mars Society Chapters Consortium”.  The Consortium could be a business entity that raises settlement construction moneys on behalf of Chapters that have obtained Mars Settlement Permits.

Let’s put a solid business foundation under the Mars migration movement. First: Persuade a sovereign to appoint an officer who has the authority to issue settlement permits. Second: Use those permits to raise settlement funding in capital markets (e.g., the New York Stock Exchange). Third: Build a prototype settlement somewhere on Earth so that proto-Martian settlers will be prepared to succeed once they arrive on Mars.


"It is possible to build a rational and humane culture completely free from the threat of supernatural restraints."  Arthur C. Clarke, The Songs of Distant Earth

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#79 2017-03-16 13:31:40

JohnX
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From: Thunder Bay
Registered: 2017-03-10
Posts: 76
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Re: Mapping a way forward

Scott Beach wrote:

John: I proposed that chapters of the Mars Society would be eligible to obtain Mars Settlement Permits from the Mars Secretariat.

...along with any other groups who want to apply? Some guidelines on how to become eligible are required.

Scott Beach wrote:

I am trying to encourage would-be Martians to form face-to-face “moral communities”; i.e., groups of Mars Society members who get together occasionally or regularly to discuss “right” and “wrong” and who thereby develop a consensus about which direction constitutes “a way forward”.

Sounds like a practical step forward. That will need a deal of agreement and publicity among Mars Society people.
Your 'moral communities' sounds like the church I go to! I don't expect you wanted to hear that wink and I don't think our church is going to Mars! But it is good to form communities where you know all the other members, can build trust, can agree on some common goals.

Scott Beach wrote:

I therefore propose that “Nomads” be changed to “Mars Society Chapters” and that “Mars Consortium” be changed to “Mars Society Chapters Consortium”.  The Consortium could be a business entity that raises settlement construction moneys on behalf of Chapters that have obtained Mars Settlement Permits.

The  “Mars Society Chapters” would be on Earth, right? They are like small colonies in formation?

My concept of 'Nomads' on my sketch comes from the Red Mars novels, the small wandering communities with no fixed abode. Just to say that diversity is a big part of life wherever you go; not all settlers will fit into one or ten molds.

But sure,  “Mars Society Chapters” can be on the map. It's just that I think Mars is even bigger than the Mars Society - there will surely be non-members wanting to settle there too. So the Consortium may have a strong MSoc influence, but I myself wouldn't change the name to exclude non-members.

Scott Beach wrote:

Let’s put a solid business foundation under the Mars migration movement. First: Persuade a sovereign to appoint an officer who has the authority to issue settlement permits. Second: Use those permits to raise settlement funding in capital markets (e.g., the New York Stock Exchange). Third: Build a prototype settlement somewhere on Earth so that proto-Martian settlers will be prepared to succeed once they arrive on Mars.

Is you 'first' the idea you mentioned about Andorra or Malta? I am not sure that would work (who are they to issue permits?), but if there's enough agreement in Mars Society, go for it.

Raising investment funding: that would have to demonstrate a strong business case first, right? How easy would that be before anyone's tried it? Or is this what we'd do in later stages when settlements are making money?

Building prototype settlement: great. Expand on the ideas in MRDS and FMars or whatever they're called in the Canadian Arctic & Utah desert. I think once (say) SpaceX's ITS system is closer to operational readiness people may start doing exactly that if they're serious.

You'll need to gather a lot of interested friends, start a movement, if you're going to get anywhere. Good luck! smile


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#80 2017-03-16 13:38:17

JohnX
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From: Thunder Bay
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Re: Mapping a way forward

Updated to show Mars Society Chapters... Feel free to draw your own versions. Mine needs colour and some artistic effort tongue

MarsGovt1.jpg


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#81 2017-03-16 14:06:14

RobertDyck
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Re: Mapping a way forward

I argue that homesteads and bases outside any municipality would not be within the jurisdiction of any municipality. And no townships, instead towns have small boundaries, like modern towns in Canada/US. Only those who live in a municipality (town or city) would elect mayor or councillors/aldermen.

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#82 2017-03-16 15:18:22

Scott Beach
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Registered: 2017-02-21
Posts: 132

Re: Mapping a way forward

JohnX wrote:

Is you 'first' the idea you mentioned about Andorra or Malta? I am not sure that would work (who are they to issue permits?), but if there's enough agreement in Mars Society, go for it.

Under the legal doctrine of "The Equality of States" Andorra and Malta have as much right to claim territory and to issue settlement permits as the largest states, such as Russia and the U.S.A.  But Russia and the U.S.A. have hobbled themselves by becoming parties to the Outer Space Treaty.

In the case of Antarctica, numerous states have claimed territorial sovereignty over the same portions of Antarctica.  In the case of Mars, the crucial question is: will a settlement permit issued by, for example, Andorra or Malta be generally regarded as legally valid?  That would be a matter for stock exchanges and investors to decide in the marketplace.

Last edited by Scott Beach (2017-03-16 16:57:02)


"It is possible to build a rational and humane culture completely free from the threat of supernatural restraints."  Arthur C. Clarke, The Songs of Distant Earth

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#83 2017-03-16 15:32:48

Scott Beach
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Re: Mapping a way forward

RobertDyck wrote:

I argue that homesteads and bases outside any municipality would not be within the jurisdiction of any municipality. And no townships, instead towns have small boundaries, like modern towns in Canada/US. Only those who live in a municipality (town or city) would elect mayor or councillors/aldermen.

The government of a settlement (144 square miles, for example) could enact a "Municipal Corporation Law" that allows people to form cities within settlements.  A city might define its boundary as 2 or 4 or 8 designated "Sections" (square miles) of the settlement.  For example, when I lived in Sacramento County, California there were three cities in that county.

In contrast, a settlement that contains 9 Hutterite colonies would probably not enact a law that allows the formation of cities.  The Hutterites might establish trading posts near the boundary of their settlement so that they could carry on commerce with other settlements without having the people from those other settlements penetrate into the core of the Hutterite settlement.


"It is possible to build a rational and humane culture completely free from the threat of supernatural restraints."  Arthur C. Clarke, The Songs of Distant Earth

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#84 2017-03-16 15:34:17

JohnX
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From: Thunder Bay
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Re: Mapping a way forward

Interesting. I don't know about such things. My feeling is that if it comes to claiming land on Mars it will end in strife and hostility.
I'd prefer that Earth nations agree that Mars should be independent from the start. Establish a Mars secretariat or similar and register land claims there.


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#85 2017-03-16 15:52:11

SpaceNut
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Re: Mapping a way forward

Whom pays for the trip is the owner as you will have signed an agreement for the flight cost and supplies to make it happen for the duration stated in the document. There could be may means to create a settlement on mars as these could not have cooperative agreements between them and would run there own respective kingdoms the way they see fit to do.

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#86 2017-03-16 16:16:08

Scott Beach
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Registered: 2017-02-21
Posts: 132

Re: Mapping a way forward

JohnX wrote:

Your 'moral communities' sounds like the church I go to! I don't expect you wanted to hear that wink and I don't think our church is going to Mars! But it is good to form communities where you know all the other members, can build trust, can agree on some common goals.

I think that it would be fine if your church sponsored the formation of a Mars Society Chapter and obtained a settlement permit.  However, if a settlement tries to force people into believing in particular supernatural beings and engaging in particular religious practices then that would be wrong.

The Hutterites are religious communities but they do not try to force other people to believe or to live as the Hutterites do.

People who join together to build "cohousing communities" have many meetings with the architect that they have chosen.  In the course of attending those meetings, they become a moral community.

A good example of a cohousing community is located in Ithaca, New York.  Their focus on maintaining the integrity of their supporting ecosystem makes them a good example for Martian settlers.

http://ecovillageithaca.org

Last edited by Scott Beach (2017-03-16 16:41:27)


"It is possible to build a rational and humane culture completely free from the threat of supernatural restraints."  Arthur C. Clarke, The Songs of Distant Earth

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#87 2017-03-16 16:24:34

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
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Re: Mapping a way forward

Scott Beach wrote:

when I lived in Sacramento County, California there were three cities in that county.

I have argued against any form of county. Or shire, canton, barony, principality, duchy, prefecture, fiefdom, demesne, oblast, or township.

Last edited by RobertDyck (2017-03-16 16:29:41)

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#88 2017-03-16 16:26:06

Scott Beach
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Registered: 2017-02-21
Posts: 132

Re: Mapping a way forward

JohnX wrote:

Interesting. I don't know about such things. My feeling is that if it comes to claiming land on Mars it will end in strife and hostility.
I'd prefer that Earth nations agree that Mars should be independent from the start. Establish a Mars secretariat or similar and register land claims there.

I agree that Mars should be independent from the start, but getting the Outer Space Treaty amended is probably impossible.  So I have instead proposed that a terrestrial sovereign claim a portion of Mars and establish a law that allows the issuance of Mars settlement permits.  If that sovereign makes it clear that people in all countries on Earth may form Mars Society chapters and become eligible to obtain settlement permits then that should preclude "strife and hostility". 

You don't see the nations that have overlapping territorial claims in Antarctica warring with each other over that.  Instead, they have entered into an Antarctic Treaty and established an Antarctic Treaty Secretariat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antarctic … ecretariat

Last edited by Scott Beach (2017-03-16 16:38:17)


"It is possible to build a rational and humane culture completely free from the threat of supernatural restraints."  Arthur C. Clarke, The Songs of Distant Earth

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#89 2017-03-16 16:36:53

Scott Beach
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Registered: 2017-02-21
Posts: 132

Re: Mapping a way forward

RobertDyck wrote:
Scott Beach wrote:

when I lived in Sacramento County, California there were three cities in that county.

I have argued against any form of county. Or shire, canton, barony, principality, duchy, prefecture, fiefdom, oblast, or township.

I believe that it is appropriate for each settlement to be designed from the start as a self-sustaining ecological unit.  The one or two or three small cities in a settlement will need to be supplied on a daily basis with food produced by people who live close by.  So a settlement that includes 144 square miles (the equivalent of 4 townships under the township and range survey system) seems to me like an appropriate size for a self-sustaining ecosystem.

How do you see the city dwellers getting their food?


"It is possible to build a rational and humane culture completely free from the threat of supernatural restraints."  Arthur C. Clarke, The Songs of Distant Earth

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#90 2017-03-16 17:01:22

JohnX
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From: Thunder Bay
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Re: Mapping a way forward

Scott, wouldn't the larger settlements such as cities or towns be better equipped to grow food? It's going to be a fairly technology-heavy process, isn't it, maintaining a good growing environment with enough fertilizer (eg from processed human feces and urine, and best place to find those are where there are lots of people) and even building a large enough structure to make a big enough farm? It will need a lot of work to make a city-worth of food. Perhaps beyond the early days of settlement there will be ready-made agricultural equipment, more know-how, more construction gear, so smaller homesteaders can grow some surplus.

But I'm not a specialist, so I could be wrong. I need to go away and do some more reading on that.


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#91 2017-03-16 17:19:13

Scott Beach
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Registered: 2017-02-21
Posts: 132

Re: Mapping a way forward

JohnX wrote:

Scott, wouldn't the larger settlements such as cities or towns be better equipped to grow food? It's going to be a fairly technology-heavy process, isn't it, maintaining a good growing environment with enough fertilizer (eg from processed human feces and urine, and best place to find those are where there are lots of people) and even building a large enough structure to make a big enough farm? It will need a lot of work to make a city-worth of food. Perhaps beyond the early days of settlement there will be ready-made agricultural equipment, more know-how, more construction gear, so smaller homesteaders can grow some surplus.

But I'm not a specialist, so I could be wrong. I need to go away and do some more reading on that.

If Martians are going to be vegetarians then it would be possible to have farms incorporated into the structure of cities.  However, trying to raise goats and pigs and cattle and sheep and other domesticated critters in a city would be a very stinky task.  Raising trout and tilapia in indoor ponds might be possible.


"It is possible to build a rational and humane culture completely free from the threat of supernatural restraints."  Arthur C. Clarke, The Songs of Distant Earth

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#92 2017-03-16 17:20:45

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
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Re: Mapping a way forward

Scott Beach wrote:

How do you see the city dwellers getting their food?

As JohnX said, a settlement (read single town or single city) will grow its own. And there will be independent homesteads outside the cities, selling food to cities. I also expect homesteads to produce other things, such as spacesuit helmets, or whatever else the individual or family want to make. Let those living in a homestead live on their own. Why impose another layer of bureaucracy on them? Isn't the whole point of Mars to get away from bureaucracy? To get away from spoiled rich brats acting as some sort of authority, extorting money from the rest of us so they can pad their own pockets?

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#93 2017-03-16 18:10:51

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
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Re: Mapping a way forward

Scott Beach wrote:

If Martians are going to be vegetarians then it would be possible to have farms incorporated into the structure of cities.  However, trying to raise goats and pigs and cattle and sheep and other domesticated critters in a city would be a very stinky task.  Raising trout and tilapia in indoor ponds might be possible.

A city is a big thing. There's plenty of room to build a separate, sealed pressurized barn with separate, isolated air recycling. For one thing, I suspect a city will not be built as a giant dome with conventional buildings inside. Rather it will probably be built as pressurized buildings. This is a shopping mall in my city, Portage Place.
17748962.jpg
interior-of-portage-place-shopping-mall-on-portage-avenue-winnipeg-C6E2F3.jpg

There are "skyways" connecting the second floor to other buildings, over streets. The largest have shops right on the bridge/skyway. At the main intersection downtown, it's underground. A better map is available here (pdf). One thing not shown on this map is a bridge/skyway (sealed heated) connecting a multi-story apartment building to Portage Place. The apartment building is to the north of the mall, then the IBM building is north of the apartment building. There are actually 3 apartment buildings north of the mall, all connected to each other via ground level shops and a small "off campus" continuing education facility of one of the local universities. The map does show the downtown YMCA connected to the mall. You can walk from one building to another to another without ever going outdoors. That's important in Winnipeg when it's winter at -33.6°C. That was the temperature when the media claimed Winnipeg was colder than Mars. Well, the overnight low was colder than the daytime high recorded by Curiosity, but the overnight low on Mars that very same night was colder than the coldest temperature ever recorded on Earth. So exaggeration, but you get the idea.
Winnipeg-walkway-map-01.jpg
I envision a Mars city built this way. Large buildings with spaces inside for rent.

A large tomato greenhouse (not Winnipeg)...
Greenergy-Tomato-greenhouse.jpg
Another that is here, just north of Winnipeg...
-572741_ORIGINAL.jpg?quality=80&size=650x&stmp=1345602414639

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#94 2017-03-16 18:21:08

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
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Re: Mapping a way forward

The design of the images reminds me of a hospital that we have in NH called Dartmouth medical center...

38878006.jpg

Nice way to build as it gives open area as well as useable gardening area for food....

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#95 2017-03-16 18:23:39

Scott Beach
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Posts: 132

Re: Mapping a way forward

RobertDyck wrote:

Let those living in a homestead live on their own. Why impose another layer of bureaucracy on them?

What other layer are you referring to?  A "settlement" would have a government and that would be all unless the government of the settlement enacted a "Municipal Corporations Law" that allows the formation of cities or school districts or water districts or fire districts, etc.

As a farmer, I provided lumber to sawmills and firewood to the people of a nearby town, which was not incorporated and did not have a police force.  If I had a problem with trespassers I took care of the problem right then.  However, if they had semi-automatic rifles I had to drive into town and use the corner pay telephone to call the county sheriff's office.  A man who fraudulently sold the timber rights to my land was eventually arrested and convicted.

The county road that ran near my farm was not paved, and the road that went from the county road to my farm was not paved (it was just an old logging trail, and a muddy mess during the winter).  I learned quickly that when you go beyond where the pavement ends you have to be prepared to take total responsibility for your own life and property.  All of my neighbors did so; they were always heavily armed.

I and my farm existed in a state of near chaos.  A state game warden came by one day and introduced himself.  Otherwise, there was no government out there.  And I imagine that the rural homesteads in a Martian settlement will exist in a state of near chaos.


"It is possible to build a rational and humane culture completely free from the threat of supernatural restraints."  Arthur C. Clarke, The Songs of Distant Earth

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#96 2017-03-16 18:24:21

IanM
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Registered: 2015-12-14
Posts: 276

Re: Mapping a way forward

I have to agree with RobertDyck's proposal, especially as it can allow for modularity and ultimately expansion.


The Earth is the cradle of the mind, but one cannot live in a cradle forever. -Paraphrased from Tsiolkovsky

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#97 2017-03-16 19:51:45

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
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Posts: 5,822
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Re: Mapping a way forward

Scott Beach wrote:

What other layer are you referring to?

You're trying to sneak it in. You proposed allowing a colony to set itself up as a county to start with, and then create subdivisions for cities. I'm saying a colony will only be granted land for a single town. They can then grow to become a single city. No single colony will be multiple cities. If they want to establish a new, separate colony somewhere else, they can. But that other colony will be separate, not part of the first colony.

What this means is any homestead not part of a town is on it's own. No colony or municipality or other form of government ruling over it. Only the national government, and national laws will be very minimal. Under my proposal for corporate government, the corporation will get most of its money from tickets of settlers. So you want to ensure Mars is seen as a libertarian paradise, somewhere people are willing to go and spend their entire life savings just to get there. Duplicating all the bureaucracy of Earth would kill that. So the corporation will be highly motivated to keep Mars as a free frontier.

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#98 2017-03-16 19:57:05

Scott Beach
Member
Registered: 2017-02-21
Posts: 132

Re: Mapping a way forward

SpaceNut wrote:

The design of the images reminds me of a hospital that we have in NH called Dartmouth medical center...

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/large/38878006.jpg

Nice way to build as it gives open area as well as useable gardening area for food....

That is a pretty building.  However, I have always thought that the major buildings on Mars would look like the avant-garde Marin County Civic Center; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marin_County_Civic_Center

Google "Marin County Civic Center images" for stunning views of this outer-spacey place.


"It is possible to build a rational and humane culture completely free from the threat of supernatural restraints."  Arthur C. Clarke, The Songs of Distant Earth

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#99 2017-03-16 20:21:14

Scott Beach
Member
Registered: 2017-02-21
Posts: 132

Re: Mapping a way forward

RobertDyck wrote:

And there will be independent homesteads outside the cities, selling food to cities...  Let those living in a homestead live on their own.

Is an "independent homestead" a husband and wife and two children living in pressurized structures 20 miles from the nearest settlement/village/town/city?  Do they have title to the land that they are living on?  Is the land title recorded somewhere?  Do they have a mortgage?  Are they registered to vote somewhere?  Do they have police protection?  Fire protection?  Electrical service?  Telephone service?  Water service?  Sewer connections?  I do not understand what the legal foundation is for an "independent homestead".  Please clarify that.

My farm was originally part of a congressional land grant to a railroad company.  My great grandfather bought the land from the railroad company.  There was a parcel of land just to the north of my farm that was acquired under the Homestead Act.  Are you proposing the enactment of a "Martian Homestead Act"?


"It is possible to build a rational and humane culture completely free from the threat of supernatural restraints."  Arthur C. Clarke, The Songs of Distant Earth

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#100 2017-03-16 20:37:31

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,761

Re: Mapping a way forward

With the distance to mars I doubt that a police or fire or other Earth agencies will be a direct value as someone needs to pay for there presence. Any such entities will be under a single dome as thats the extent of the land via which service industry would be needed for but this sounds like an entitlement as they are not working to create the colony, grow the food ect....
Even a small city needs to get to a certain areage density of population before they even need such services and below that the community manages these as voluteer....

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