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#1 2017-03-02 14:09:00

karov
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From: Bulgaria
Registered: 2004-06-03
Posts: 951

Martian magnetic shield

http://www.popularmechanics.com/space/m … tmosphere/

SO easy!?

Very bold statements.:

According to simulation models, such a shield could help Mars achieve half the atmospheric pressure of Earth in a matter of years. With protection from solar winds, frozen CO2 at Mars's polar ice caps would start to sublimate, or turn directly into gas from a solid. The greenhouse effect would start to fill Mars's thin atmosphere and heat the planet, mainly at the equator, at which point the vast stores of ice under the poles would melt and flood the world with liquid water.

"Perhaps one-seventh of the ancient ocean could return to Mars," said Green.

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#2 2017-03-02 16:49:52

Void
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Re: Martian magnetic shield

That's a nice picture.  I am not sure why a magnetic field would cause Mars to heat up, except that it might loose atmosphere at a slower rate, and so perhaps slowly accumulate a denser atmosphere.  I presume greenhouse gasses or some other terraform device needed?

I am not picking on you Karov.

So, for this to work, someone would have to own the land of Mars, and that someone would have to pay for the reclamation of that land, with such a magnetic field, pay for the magnetic field in the L1 location.

1/2 bar of CO2 would be about as warm as Earth on average.

No provision of a Ozone layer?  I don't know if Ozone can protect from U.V. under those conditions.  Ozone is likely to break down in the presence of CO2/CO?

Still, then domes and the use of Photolysis would be good.  If you had ice covered seas, those might be protected from U.V.

If you took all of the Carbon out of the atmosphere, then you would be left with 333 mb of mostly Oxygen.  Perhaps too flammable.  You could use super greenhouse gasses to ward off the cold??

Still if the article is correct, then quite an improvement.

.38 gee, and protective on the ground for ground launched spacecraft.  That might help the human race in a quest to move outward into the outer solar system, and beyond.

Last edited by Void (2017-03-02 16:58:01)

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#3 2017-03-04 09:37:10

knightdepaix
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Registered: 2014-07-07
Posts: 100

Re: Martian magnetic shield

A question about the usefulness of ozone. Can some other gas(es) absorb the UV wavelengths that ozone absorbs? If so, ozone would not be needed.

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#4 2017-03-04 10:16:52

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 1,806

Re: Martian magnetic shield

I think I know some things.

Apparently Ice covering a body of water could block U.V. and if it is relatively bubble and crack free, it would pass visible light.

Also, I think sufficient Methane might absorb some of the U.V.  It also is a greenhouse gas.

The interaction of Methane with CO2, Nitrogen, and U.V. might create organic fog also, which should drift to the ground, and perhaps make the ground more hospitable to life.  But of course smog will block some of the visible light as well.

Other than that, if you got the air pressure up a bit, perhaps Karov's Hall Weather Machine could block U.V.  But that will be a very advanced technology for Mars.

For Venus, simple floating bubbles might work in various ways to make the situation more hospitable to Earth life.

Last edited by Void (2017-03-04 10:20:49)

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#5 2017-03-04 21:23:29

SpaceNut
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#6 2017-03-04 21:40:54

RobertDyck
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Re: Martian magnetic shield

posted in another article: NASA proposes a magnetic shield to protect Mars' atmosphere
1-nasaproposes.jpg

This new research is coming about due to the application of full plasma physics codes and laboratory experiments. In the future it is quite possible that an inflatable structure(s) can generate a magnetic dipole field at a level of perhaps 1 or 2 Tesla (or 10,000 to 20,000 Gauss) as an active shield against the solar wind.

The idea is reducing solar wind impacting the upper atmosphere, will reduce erosion of hydrogen. High energy plasma of solar wind breaks up water in the upper most atmosphere, and accelerates hydrogen to escape velocity. Hydroxyl (OH-) and oxygen remain because they're heavier, don't accelerate to required velocity. Reducing solar wind will allow more water to remain, achieving equilibrium at higher concentration. Water itself is a greenhouse gas, so this would increase the temperature of Mars somewhat.

That's their argument. More important is two points:

  • reduces radiation reaching the surface of Mars, so reduces radiation affecting Mars settlers

  • more effective terraforming methods would produce a thick atmosphere. This would prevent that atmosphere from eroding into space.

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#7 2017-03-04 22:11:22

SpaceNut
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Re: Martian magnetic shield

Sure making a field deflector but keeping it in motion to block the solar wind in sync with the mars sun orbiting speed might be a problem as its going to need lots of fuel to station keep.

I think they were looking at what happened with the comet flyby that was captured by maven.

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#8 2017-03-05 11:40:10

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 1,806

Re: Martian magnetic shield

Robert said:

more effective terraforming methods would produce a thick atmosphere. This would prevent that atmosphere from eroding into space.

That helps a lot Robert, I did not see that one.  The fossil magnetic fields that assist in the stripping of the atmosphere have altitude, and if you increase the altitude of the upper atmosphere, lift it away, then the fossil magnetic fields should be weaker at those higher altitudes.  At least that is what I am understanding now.  Do you think that is correct?


I have it in my mind that one of the possible devices that they might use is, and inflatable magnetic bubble?
https://science.nasa.gov/science-news/s … st04oct_1/
marshall_plume_med.jpg?itok=Mu1VFhAA

Normally, the intensity of such a magnetic field diminishes rapidly with increasing distance from the coil. "It's similar to a dipole field that falls off as the cube of the distance," explains Gallagher. "Dipolar magnetic bubbles are a problem, though, because they don't present the cross section we need to intercept plenty of solar wind power."


To make the bubble bigger, Gallagher and his colleagues blew up the magnetic field -- much like inflating a balloon -- by injecting ionized gas near the coil. The innovative use of ionized gas (called plasma) to blow up the magnetic bubble is what gives the project its name: Mini-Magnetospheric Plasma Propulsion or M2P2 for short.
Left: A luminous plasma plume inflates an invisible magnetic bubble inside the vacuum chamber at NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center.
"The thing that makes M2P2 special is that we inflate the field from the inside with low-energy plasma," says Gallagher. "Earth's magnetosphere is inflated with plasma, too, but it's not as dense as the plasma inside the M2P2 bubble. Jupiter's magnetosphere comes closer -- the sources of plasma there are active volcanoes on Io."

I am not sure.  Is it possible that gasses from the upper Martian atmosphere could then populate the field and make it more intense per the method of the article I have referenced, or are they thinking of simply generating a magnetic field without inflating it with plasma.

I know that for "Inflated" plasma bubbles, you can also add dust, and that could have interesting effects.

If it is an "Inflated" magnetic field, then I wonder if Oxygen can be used as a plasma.  Specifically could Ozone be pumped into it also.  Pretty speculative, as I suspect that it would be unstable.  However the U.V. flux of an inflated bubble might continuously produce Ozone?  I don't really understand the low energy plasma that they might use to inflate the bubble though, so that potential is really not at all understood by me also.

I do think however if they could "Inflate" this magnetic field, and add dust to it, perhaps it could cool the equator more than the poles?

Perhaps if "Smart" dust were included, that like Karov's favorite "Hall Weather Machine", specific tricks could be used.

I think the reason I would like to cool the equator relative to the poles, is I would hope to draw moisture from the polar ice caps to the equator.  That has some value.   

While a thickening atmosphere will warm the entire planet, drawing water from the poles to the equator by making the equator cool relative to the poles than it is now, would then remove coatings of water ice from the poles and expose entombed CO2 ice to sunlight, possibly evaporating it.

For instance if you could get glaciers to start growing at altitude on Olympus Mons and the other volcano's, you would shrink the amount of water ice in the polar ice caps.  This would tend to exposed entombed CO2, and also would serve to increase the albedo of the polar areas.  Sort of a positive feedback situation.

I believe I recall that if you have an 11 mb atmosphere, you can get snowfall.  And in some cases you can get snow melts and temporary streams.

Nearer the equator, it could be possible for daily sunlight to penetrate snow pack, and melt some of it even if the air temperature were below freezing.

So, a big wish would be getting water runoff from the mountains as rivers.  I suspect that the atmosphere will need more than 11 mb to accomplish that.

I will confess that if it is not an inflatable magnetic field then I would not think it will be possible to cool the equator relative to the poles, while warming the whole planet.  In that case, you would have to just wait for the atmosphere to build up to the point that the polar caps thaw.

Last edited by Void (2017-03-05 12:12:39)

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#9 2017-03-05 20:31:14

SpaceNut
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Re: Martian magnetic shield

A "dipole field" is what you get with a north and south pole from a DC source of power in the coil but with no magnetic iron core it will be even weaker needing more current in the coil to obtain the same field strength.

The RF or AC field is a multi pole which would be the same as if it was spinning slowly relative to a stationary field or you could spin the dipole to have the same effect.

The trouble with an ever increasing atmosphere is the field will need to grow as well to continue to block the solar winds but as it still will leak out the back side of the planet as it can not hold onto it.

We can obtain the same effect with a global net of satellite fields being link to each other to create a near field which would hold the atmosphere in as they would encircle the planet. Be sides we need a GPS system for Mars and this would build one at the same time....

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#10 2017-03-05 21:19:57

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 1,806

Re: Martian magnetic shield

This article is from a slightly different slant, but contains some items I think are important, and some things I think are mistakes.

https://phys.org/news/2016-07-curious-c … phere.html

The possible mistake first:

According to Green and his colleagues, these would include an average increase of about 4 °C (~7 °F), which would be enough to melt the carbon dioxide ice in the northern polar ice cap. This would trigger a greenhouse effect, warming the atmosphere further and causing the water ice in the polar caps to melt.

Perhaps they intend what was said in the quote.  However, my understanding is that the north polar ice cap is composed mostly of water ice, whereas the south polar ice cap has substantial entombed inclusions of dry ice.  But perhaps later understanding will explain why they seem to say it wrongly.

This is almost certainly incorrect/partially flawed, from what I have learned:

The current scientific consensus is that, like Earth, Mars once had a magnetic field that protected its atmosphere. Roughly 4.2 billion years ago, this planet's magnetic field suddenly disappeared, which caused Mars' atmosphere to slowly be lost to space. Over the course of the next 500 million years, Mars went from being a warmer, wetter environment to the cold, uninhabitable place we know today.

The actual story is that Mars currently has some partial covering fossil magnetic fields, that interact
with the ionized upper atmosphere to assist the solar wind in pulling sheets of upper atmosphere off into space.  It is possible that Mars always only ever had a partial dynamo magnetic field, and so never was correctly protected from atmospheric loss.

Venus can show how this can be true.  You do not need a internal geodynamic magnetic field, or a artificial magnetic field to protect the atmosphere of Venus.  Why?

Because the magnetic field of Venus barely extends into the atmosphere of Venus, and does not apparently project in any significant way into the boundry between the impinging solar wind, and the upper atmosphere of Venus.

For Venus, a magnetic field is induced in the plasma of the upper atmosphere, by the Solar Wind.  A counter EMF, so it self protects.  Yes there is a tail of Oxygen lost, but that in part is also due to the fact that the atmosphere of Venus is so dry that apparently electrical force levitates Oxygen out of the atmosphere beyond the protective barrier created by the EMF.  So, that is a totally different issue.  In spite of it Venus has accumulated a 90 bar atmosphere, and I will presume that it is in some kind of a balancing state between volcanic contribution, and atmospheric loss.

With that information, I am now encouraged by this supporting information:

"This new research is coming about due to the application of full plasma physics codes and laboratory experiments. In the future it is quite possible that an inflatable structure(s) can generate a magnetic dipole field at a level of perhaps 1 or 2 Tesla (or 10,000 to 20,000 Gauss) as an active shield against the solar wind."
In addition, the positioning of this magnetic shield would ensure that the two regions where most of Mars' atmosphere is lost would be shielded. In the course of the presentation, Green and the panel indicated that these the major escape channels are located, "over the northern polar cap involving higher energy ionospheric material, and 2) in the equatorial zone involving a seasonal low energy component with as much as 0.1 kg/s escape of oxygen ions."

So, I could still be wrong, but I think they are talking about starting with a dipole magnetic field, and then "Inflating" it with magnetized plasma.

So, if they can do the Dipole in L1, I wonder if reverse fields on the surface can be considered to suppress the fossil magnetic fields?  Maybe just the Dipole is the one to invest research in.

One point I want to make is that a good enough protection is good enough.  Magnetic shields don't have to be perfect.  The below article indicates that the solar wind sweeps atmosphere off of the Earth as well.
https://science.nasa.gov/science-news/s … 08dec98_1/

Last edited by Void (2017-03-05 21:52:56)

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#11 2017-03-05 22:06:49

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
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Posts: 5,035
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Re: Martian magnetic shield

I have posted before, many times, the proposal to use strong magnetic fields to manipulate the current flow of the outer liquid core of Mars. Coordinate the convection cells so there is a net magnetic field. The idea is to leverage your efforts, use heat of the planet's core as the primary energy source to power a planetary magnetic field. That should produce a stronger magnetosphere than just building one directly. The hope is energy required to manipulate the core current flow is less energy than building the magnetic field directly. Of course this depends on Mars having a liquid core. There are articles published by JPL that say Mars has a liquid iron core, but other scientists believe Mars has a solid core of iron-nickel-sulphur. The "InSight" probe should answer that question.

Void:
Venus has a hydrogen tail. That was detected by Pioneer Venus. I have never read anything about an oxygen tail.

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#12 2017-03-05 22:10:30

knightdepaix
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Registered: 2014-07-07
Posts: 100

Re: Martian magnetic shield

About Mars-L1 point, can an asteroid be moved there while the supposedly huge magnetic field generating devices are built on it?

About thawing, an unexpected benefit would be the water dissolving underground but vastly scattered nitrates that would at first be uneconomically extracted by mining the regolith. Then the dissolved nitrates in rivers or seas would provide opportunities for them to be concentrated by artificial microbial or plant mechanisms, recalling a part of the Earth's nitrogen cycle.

Last edited by knightdepaix (2017-03-07 00:09:39)

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#13 2017-03-05 22:23:30

Void
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Re: Martian magnetic shield

knightdepaix
Interesting ideas.  I am going to send a post about something like that.  It was to be for Karov, in case he could care.  Maybe you will be interested.  For now, though my baby seals are getting clubbed to death, so I have to respond to Robert.

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#14 2017-03-05 22:24:27

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
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Re: Martian magnetic shield

Moving an asteroid is very difficult. Simply because an asteroid is big, lots of mass. How to you move it? You really need a simple means of converting asteroid material into propellant. For an asteroid dripping in water, like asteroid Don Quixote, that's fairly easy. For an iron asteroid, I have no idea.

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#15 2017-03-05 22:25:13

Void
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Re: Martian magnetic shield

Robert, I will see what I can do.
http://www.space.com/19537-venus-comet-atmosphere.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ … table.html

When water molecules rise into the upper atmosphere, sunlight breaks the water into hydrogen ions which are fast and escape easily, and heavier oxygen ions which are carried away by the electric field.

So, for more information you can read the article.  I believe that the electric force is due to the overall dryness of the atmosphere of Venus.

I do appreciate your ideas about magnetic fields.  Perhaps something like that could be adopted to build countering magnetic fields on the ground that would oppose and therefore suppress the fossil magnetic fields.

However, this thread is about magnet fields in the L1 region.  So, I am certainly not in favor of clubbing that baby seal to death and replacing it with something else.

Last edited by Void (2017-03-05 22:31:30)

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#16 2017-03-05 22:37:04

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 1,806

Re: Martian magnetic shield

RobertDyck said:

Moving an asteroid is very difficult. Simply because an asteroid is big, lots of mass. How to you move it? You really need a simple means of converting asteroid material into propellant. For an asteroid dripping in water, like asteroid Don Quixote, that's fairly easy. For an iron asteroid, I have no idea.

For Near Mars Asteroids then it might be very easy.  It seems that the ones that are carbonaceous may also have metals.

http://www.space.com/30582-asteroid-min … lsion.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asteroid_mining

For dry asteroids, perhaps a magnetic plasma bubble could be used, to move it towards a ballistic capture into the Martian orbit.  From there it would have to be further propulsed to L1.

Ballistic capture is where you cause the apogee of an object to happen just in front of Mars in it's orbit.
Mars then sucks it in as it approaches the object.  It is more time consuming, but less energy intensive than the Hohmann transfer method.

So you would likely be grabbing Near Mars Objects that have an orbital energy less than Mars, and orbit more towards the sun.  Then you could modulate your plasma bubble to cause the apogee of the object to be energy and time synchronous with a ballistic capture event.  Easy to say, hard to do, perhaps.  It might be a fully automated system, the plasma bubble, and the machinery which modulates it.

Ballistic Capture:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti … the-cheap/

A New Way to Reach Mars Safely, Anytime and on the Cheap

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_capture

https://www.reddit.com/r/spacex/comment … igeekicks/

MCT: ballistic capture, aerocapture, perigee-kicks (self.spacex)
submitted 5 months ago * by somodyg
A) I'm wondering why Elon insists to Hohmann-transfer orbit instead of using a low-energy ballistic capture.
By using a Hohmann-transfer orbit: 1. launch windows are rare and short, so 1.1. lots of MCT's have to be ready to go on LEO parking orbit to deliver a significant amount of cargo and/or astronauts, 1.2. if something goes wrong, the MCT has to wait 2 years on LEO or come back to Earth; 2. by arrival 2.1. timing of brake-burn is crucial (any problem could cause failure) 2.2. deltaV is enormous, so EDL is both costly and risky (heavy heatshield and lots of fuel is needed), 2.3. the time of landing cannot be altered (think about dust stroms on the surface).
By using a low-energy ballistic capture: 1. you can launch MCT's at any time, so you can maintain a steady stream of supplies and settlers, 2. parking on a High Mars Orbit happens almost automatically, 3. descent to Low Mars Orbit and then EDL requires only a small amount of fuel (compared to arriving from a high-energy Hohmann-transfer orbit) 4. you can choose the time of EDL.
Yes, Hohmann-tranfer offers a (relatively) quick trip, but ballistic capture is both cheaper and more robust. And no, it's not so much slower.
B) I also missed mentioning the use of aerocapture. IMHO it's an elegant and very efficient way to dissipate kinetic energy before EDL. It takes a week or two going through the Martian atmosphere a few times, but it offers low entry speed at EDL, which means more robustness.
C) I'm also wondering why SpaceX doesn't plan to accelerate the MCTs by some "perigee-kicks" like the indian Mangalyaan did. Again, it needs a week or two, but accelerating the MCTs near the Earth would mean cost savings and robustness.
The swing-by maneuver around the Moon is a good idea.
To sum up: the three methods above add some weeks to the mission, but they offer significant cost savings/extra payload and - what's more important - robustness.

Last edited by Void (2017-03-05 22:51:24)

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#17 2017-03-05 22:49:28

RobertDyck
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Re: Martian magnetic shield

Void wrote:

So, I am certainly not in favor of clubbing that baby seal to death and replacing it with something else.

But some people love seal fur coats. My vegan friend would hate hearing me say that. But I dropped by her house on Valentine's Day. Paid her back for when she paid the vet bill for my cat. I had intended to invite her to dinner for Valentine's Day, my treat. But she was shocked that I dropped by without calling ahead. Said she "wasn't prepared" for me. And was eager to hustle me out of her house. She was obviously hiding something. A 20-something boy in her bedroom? Screw her.

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#18 2017-03-05 22:53:36

Void
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Re: Martian magnetic shield

My guess is she was intimidated by your good looks.  I have that problem all the time smile

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#19 2017-03-05 22:54:43

Void
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Posts: 1,806

Re: Martian magnetic shield

knightdepaix said:

About Mars-L1 point, can an asteroid be moved there while the supposedly huge magnetic field generating devices are built on it?
About thawing, an unexpected benefit would be the water dissolving underground but vastly scattered nitrates that would at first be uneconomically extracted by mining the regolith. Then the dissolved nitrates in rivers or seas would provide an opportunities for them to be concentrated by artificial microbial or plant mechanisms, recalling a part of the Earth's nitrogen cycle.

Well first of all, we might use materials from Phobos or Demos for the purpose you suggest.  Or maybe indeed the L1 would be a great place to capture Near Mars Asteroids.  Could you "Magneto-aerocapture(Plasma air)" an asteroid into that giant magnetic field without wrecking it?

Actually, I don't have the engineering design for it, but I would like to capture energy from the solar wind while deflecting it from Mars.  That would require a modification of the proposed dipole design.
A starting trial balloon would be tethers that reach sunwards from the magnetic field, and dip into the passing solar wind, like a jellyfish.  Of course tiny impactors will tend to break them, which is annoying.  However if they are short and robust, perhaps most of the materials loss can be avoided.  So, I want to make a machine which generates a counter EMF magnetic field by capturing energy from the solar wind.

This is not as silly as it sounds as this is exactly how the atmosphere of Venus is protected from the solar wind (For the most part).

Now about your Nitrates.
I have had my eye on things like this:
http://www.montana.edu/priscu/documents … sOxide.pdf
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio … Antarctica

I will just summarize what I think is important here.  Hypersaline lakes generate Nitrous Oxide.  Possibly without the help of life, or with it.  I believe I have read that the Nitrous Oxide and Hydrogen are generated by contact of the cold brine with the soil of the lake bottoms.

I think we can expect that in the last stages of significant near surface habitability on Mars, many ice covered hypersaline lakes would have existed.  Therefore I suspect the generation of a lot of Nitrous Oxide.  Now if that would later become nitrates I don't know.  Perhaps so.

But there is some thinking that massive ancient layers of Fossil ice exist on Mars.  Perhaps under the Mariner Rift Valley.  If so, I am pulling for massive amounts of Nitrous Oxide clathrate being in that ice.

If so, yes indeed what you said could happen, and perhaps the Clathrates of Nitrous Oxide, and Methane may be vented from the melting ices.  But it would take a very long time for those ices to melt.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar … 5X13004145

One million cubic kilometers of fossil ice in Valles Marineris: Relicts of a 3.5 Gy old glacial landsystem along the Martian equator

In my thinking Mars may have had 3 atmospheres.
1) Like Titan Nitrogen/Methane with Tholens being created, with a strong greenhouse effect.  Possibly protection from U.V. Light from the Methane.
2) Oxygen.  When atmosphere #1 ran out of Methane, and collapsed about 3.5 Gy ago, then U.V. would hit the ice and water of the exposed reservoirs and release Hydrogen and Oxygen.  The Hydrogen would float away, and the Oxygen would accumulate.
3) The atmosphere now.  When sufficient Nitrogen was either lost to space, or entombed into clathrates, the atmospheric column dropped down, and dust covered most ice deposits, reducing the amount of Oxygen produced by photolysis.  The loss rate brought down the atmospheric pressure to ~5.5 mb which curiously is near the triple point of water.

On the top of the atmosphere Oxygen is lost, leaving behind some of the Carbon.  The Carbon gets more Oxygen from water.  (I think the 5.5 mb pressure regulates how much water vapor gets converted from ice to enter the atmosphere, and replenish the CO2.

Volcano's may still erupt and add CO2 and water to the system.  If they belch Methane (Which is possible) then their could be temporary times where the air pressure goes up, and perhaps even snow and snow melts can occur.  There is evidence for such in the last 200,000 years.

Other methods to get temporary snow and snow melts could be comet impacts, asteroid impacts, and I think that when the poles are tilted right it may be that all of the CO2 of the polar ice caps is more or less transferred to make a denser atmosphere.

Phew!

Last edited by Void (2017-03-05 23:49:48)

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#20 2017-03-05 22:57:45

RobertDyck
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Posts: 5,035
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Re: Martian magnetic shield

The idea of the L1 plasma bubble is to deflect radiation farther away from Mars, create a wake that surrounds Mars. A magnetosphere creates a magnetic field with much greater diameter than a magnetic field alone. And a magnetosphere will spontaneously be created around any magnetic field in space. Simply because the charged plasma of solar wind will be trapped, creating the magnetosphere. You don't have to worry about interactions with the planet's magnetic field or the planet's iron core when you're out at L1. An intriguing idea that doesn't require sophisticated manipulation of the planet's molten core.

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#21 2017-03-05 23:05:32

Void
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Re: Martian magnetic shield

Agreed.

I have been wondering what other mischief can be done at L1, in conjunction with that objective.

Not knowing how, to do it at L1, but there have been proposals to generate power from the solar wind.
http://www.alternative-energy-news.info … ind-power/
It needs work.  Lots of work.  Just a feeling actually at this point.

Here is another potential item to be done at L1.

If Mars had a different axial tilt, it might have as much energy at it's poles as it does at the equator.
I could be wrong, but I suspect that under those conditions there would be no spot on Mars where dry ice could last outside of seasonal precipitation events, if even that.  So, I expect that virtually all the dry ice would go to atmosphere, this would warm up the planet, and more water vapor would exist in the atmosphere, and snows would occur.  Snow melts might even occur.

So, since you are at L1 messing with the solar wind, and perhaps you also are capturing Near Mars Objects to it, why not build a structure which reduces the amount of light at the equator, and reroutes it to the poles?

Oh NO!  Not the evil heliostat again!

This could also serve to relay photons to solar panel installations on the surface of Mars near cities.  Many cities will be towards the poles where the water is, so that would work out more or less.

And if terraforming works out very well, then indeed why not deliver extra photons to crops, to make them grow faster, and also in some cases to ward off frost.

If the energy balance is adjusted by this method, to reduce energy to the equator, and to increase it to the poles, then we can hope to see moisture move from the polar ice caps to alpine ice caps in the high mountains.  If then rivers can run from those high mountains, perhaps that water can be routed to the Mariner Rift Valley, to produce a nice warm sea.  Just because you usually route photons from the equator to the poles, it would not stop you from making an exception at the Mariner Rift Valley, and routing extra photons into it to make it warmer.

Just some ideas.

Hope you got that Karov.  How about a Hall Weather Machine that has elements that fly in the L1 magnetic field and plasma???  Otherwise some metal/ceramic framework with hinged heliostats.

RobertDyck.  I am still wondering how they keep the device in the L1 location if the solar wind is blowing it around.  They must have a way, I would think.  Perhaps balancing against gravitational forces somehow.

Last edited by Void (2017-03-05 23:51:50)

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#22 2017-03-06 20:24:57

SpaceNut
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Re: Martian magnetic shield

The power from a field happens when the conductor of field is in motion relative to each other in order to induce the emf into the coil of wire that is near this field.

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#23 2017-04-10 14:15:32

knightdepaix
Member
Registered: 2014-07-07
Posts: 100

Re: Martian magnetic shield

knightdepaix wrote:
Void wrote:

I just wanted to mention that for salt solutions, it is possible to precipitate salts out by temperature.  Therefore possibly concentrating salts of a particular metal as precipitants, under a certain situation.  Temperature, concentration, possibly dissolved gasses.

borrowing another post for a topic where it fits....

RickSmith wrote:

Q--- WHAT ARE THE MAIN PROBLEMS FOR LIFE ON MARS?

A--- There are several problems:
--1) The first problem is the air pressure.  It varies from 6 to 14 mBars. (milliBars = 1/1000 of a Bar.  1 Bar is about 99% of an atmosphere.) Earth by contrast has 1.101325 Bars at sea level.  Mars is therefore at a near vacuum and multicellular life will soon die.

Info on Breathable Atmospheres.

--2) The second problem is the cold.  Tho occasionally the temperature gets above freezing on the equator, most of the time Mars is far below freezing.  A typical night temperature is -90C and the temperature at the south pole in southern winter is -127C.  This low temperature is enough to freeze out carbon dioxide ( CO2 ).  So much CO2 freezes out that the planetary air pressure drops significantly each Martian winter.

Note from Wikipedia, the the atmospheric pressure on the Martian surface averages 0.6kPa (0.087 psi; 6.0 mbar), about 0.6% of Earth's mean sea level pressure of 101.3 kPa (14.69 psi; 1.1013 bar); and annual mean temperatures at the surface are currently < 210 K (−63 °C; −82 °F), significantly lower than that needed to sustain liquid water. Triple points of
oxygen -- 54.36 K (−218.79 °C)    0.152 kPa (0.00150 atm)
water -- 273.16 K (0.01 °C)    0.611657 kPa (0.00603659 atm)
hydrogen -- 13.84 K (−259.31 °C)    7.04 kPa (0.0695 atm)
carbon monoxide -- 68.10 K (−205.05 °C) 15.37 kPa (0.1517 atm)
carbon dioxide -- 216.55 K (−56.60 °C)    517 kPa (5.10 atm)

So in Martian surface atmosphere pressure and mean temperatures, only oxygen has a liquid phase.

Liquid oxygen is paramagnetic and oxygen itself can be made from water electrolysis and carbon dioxide. Would a pool or lake(?) of liquid oxygen in remote area on Mars that holds weak magnetic field help the Martian magnetic field?

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#24 2017-04-10 17:04:06

RobertDyck
Member
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 5,035
Website

Re: Martian magnetic shield

knightdepaix wrote:

Liquid oxygen is paramagnetic and oxygen itself can be made from water electrolysis and carbon dioxide. Would a pool or lake(?) of liquid oxygen in remote area on Mars that holds weak magnetic field help the Martian magnetic field?

Oxygen phase diagram:
012_oxygen_p.png
Triple point is 54.36°K (-218.79°C) @ 1.5E-3 bar (1.5 mbar). At 1 atmosphere pressure (1.013 bar) oxygen boils at -182.96°C. I don't see oxygen getting cold enough to be liquid at Mars ambient pressure.

Last edited by RobertDyck (2017-04-10 17:05:41)

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#25 2017-04-10 19:11:34

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 10,637

Re: Martian magnetic shield

What I can tell about mars early atmospher is that while it was dense enough to have liquid water it still lacked the magnetic field required to create the radiation belts of plasma to re-enforce the magnetic field of mars as its core cooled.
Create a barrier field in orbit will be the first step towards mars keeping even a thin atmosphere. Then finding a way to grow the remnant fields to cover the surface would be the next.

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