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#76 2017-01-26 12:20:37

GW Johnson
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From: McGregor, Texas USA
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Re: Earths Oceans Explored - but why not colonized

Original thread title:  Earth's Oceans Explored - but why not colonized  -- a question.

The short,  simple answer:  because it is harder for an airbreather to live there than on land,  and we haven't yet run out of land to live on.

What may happen as land-based agriculture falls short of producing enough food,  especially with deleterious climate change effects:  ---  Floating operations that farm the sea with aquaculture,  not so much mechanized fishing (already seriously overfished in many places.  Fundamental problem:  too many of us,  not enough food production means. 

We'll have to farm at sea since the land cannot supply enough,  which means some must move out onto the sea to run the operations.  We'll also have to get serious about population control.  There's over 7 billion of us.  My best gut-feel guess is that the long-term sustainable population is under 0.7 billion,  10 times less. 

We'll colonize the ocean surface when,  and because,  that's what we have to do.

BTW,  we'll need some new economics theories that help direct things with stable or shrinking populations.  That's a serious lack.  Right now everything is based on growth-in-perpetuity.  That's not sustainable.  Opportunity here!!!

There is a parallel here to colonization in space.  We'll do that in a big way when the need really arises,  just like the oceans.  But unlike the oceans,  space isn't yet explored,  and the small-scale experiments in settlement technologies have yet to be run.  That alone will keep us busy for a century or so. 

A guess and likely wrong:  resource extraction in space will take place outside of gravity wells.  That would be asteroids/comets,  and small moons.  Planets like Mars get terraformed and put into agricultural production.  Resource extraction in space cold start now,  might even be a viable business soon.  Terraforming will take centuries.  The sea will hold us till then.

GW

Last edited by GW Johnson (2017-01-26 12:27:48)


GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

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#77 2017-01-26 19:51:49

SpaceNut
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Re: Earths Oceans Explored - but why not colonized

The ocean life will happen when you can no longer afford to live on land for sure.

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#78 2017-01-28 01:00:12

Tom Kalbfus
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Re: Earths Oceans Explored - but why not colonized

SpaceNut wrote:

The ocean life will happen when you can no longer afford to live on land for sure.

It would require advanced robotics to build the land cheap enough so ordinary people can afford to live on it.

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#79 2017-01-28 13:45:19

GW Johnson
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Re: Earths Oceans Explored - but why not colonized

What I had in mind was a floating city on barges moored together,  sort of along the lines of the old movie "Waterworld", but focused on aquaculture in a netted volume beneath the city,  instead of that post-apocalyptic nonsense in the movie.  There's no need of robotics to build and operate such a thing,  although having ROV's would certainly help.  You'd have to locate it in the right place so that ocean currents maintain its climate location,  instead of routing it toward the cold regions and back.  Maybe the middle of the Sargasso Sea?

GW


GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

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#80 2017-01-28 18:20:51

Tom Kalbfus
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Re: Earths Oceans Explored - but why not colonized

GW Johnson wrote:

What I had in mind was a floating city on barges moored together,  sort of along the lines of the old movie "Waterworld", but focused on aquaculture in a netted volume beneath the city,  instead of that post-apocalyptic nonsense in the movie.  There's no need of robotics to build and operate such a thing,  although having ROV's would certainly help.  You'd have to locate it in the right place so that ocean currents maintain its climate location,  instead of routing it toward the cold regions and back.  Maybe the middle of the Sargasso Sea?

GW

You would need thousands or robots per person to make the necessary land cheap enough, and I'm talking artificial hills, soil trees and everything like that, not some sorry rusty boats tossing in the waves!

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#81 2017-01-28 21:45:58

SpaceNut
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Re: Earths Oceans Explored - but why not colonized

water world island was made up of multiple vessels lashed together to create the land for use...
1364407878_waterworld_02.jpeg

Metals that are sandwiched together as a laminate do not rust or rot to make the new land on the oceans....

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#82 2017-01-28 23:08:45

Tom Kalbfus
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Re: Earths Oceans Explored - but why not colonized

There is not enough water to make Water World, that movie was an exaggeration just like the other movie The Day After Tomorrow.

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#83 2017-01-29 10:04:59

SpaceNut
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Re: Earths Oceans Explored - but why not colonized

Yes these were exaggeration but then again to many going to mars is just that....

So back to what make land as we have seen it can be not only describe as a suface where we can live in comfort...

So colonizing the oceans are a possiblity as we need to forage outward for room to grow.
We are not there for sure and we have barely scratched the oceans as far as exploration goes as well...

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#84 2017-01-29 13:02:26

GW Johnson
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Re: Earths Oceans Explored - but why not colonized

What I had in mind was not a land ecology on a floating thing,  but something like a ship,  just a lot larger. It was a factory aquaculture farm,  so food is no problem. Sell or trade surplus for what you don't make but want. 

Use waste heat the way the Navy does to make fresh water out of sea water by vacuum flash distillation.  That plus rainwater collection should be plenty.  The sewage will have to be well-treated before discharge,  or else you pollute the aquaculture operation. 

Smallish crew of aquaculturists and the technicians that keep the ship-like systems running.

It's not colonization in the classic sense,  but it's a start.  As I said,  I suspect we'll be driven to start doing that as the land agriculture output falls short with overpopulation and climate change. 

GW


GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

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#85 2017-01-29 19:30:24

SpaceNut
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Re: Earths Oceans Explored - but why not colonized

Not sure that any colony or even a small group would be able to afford nuclear powered anything due to cost thou nuclear power and the oceans are a perfect match for a foundation for even a floating island which could contain such an industry that could support these island members.

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#86 2017-01-30 06:09:39

Antius
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Re: Earths Oceans Explored - but why not colonized

We do have sea colonies in a sense.  Offshore oil rigs are a good example of a small colony built in the sea to exploit a mineral resource that requires local presence.  No one lives there full time because: (1) They are expensive real estate; (2) No body wants to.  As a home, the land is better.  And it isn't that expensive just to rotate the crews using helicopters.  A lot cheaper than building a palatial oil rig.

When asteroids are mined the first facilities will probably resemble oil rigs in some respects.  They will be cramped, smelly, not entirely healthy.  But the distance and launch costs mean that crew cannot easily return home on a regular basis.  When you send a man into space to work, you want him to stay there for at least five years, preferably longer.  So there will be much more pressure to make space outposts more liveable than oil rigs early on.  But cost will severely constrain how far that can go, at least initially.  The solution is higher pay.

Last edited by Antius (2017-01-30 06:13:10)

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#87 2017-01-30 06:22:57

Antius
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Re: Earths Oceans Explored - but why not colonized

GW Johnson wrote:

What I had in mind was not a land ecology on a floating thing,  but something like a ship,  just a lot larger. It was a factory aquaculture farm,  so food is no problem. Sell or trade surplus for what you don't make but want. 

Use waste heat the way the Navy does to make fresh water out of sea water by vacuum flash distillation.  That plus rainwater collection should be plenty.  The sewage will have to be well-treated before discharge,  or else you pollute the aquaculture operation. 

Smallish crew of aquaculturists and the technicians that keep the ship-like systems running.

It's not colonization in the classic sense,  but it's a start.  As I said,  I suspect we'll be driven to start doing that as the land agriculture output falls short with overpopulation and climate change. 

GW

For a floating 'colony' the question will always be 'why not put engines on it and make it a ship that can go anywhere?'  One could say that a cruise ship is in a sense an ocean colony, but no one wants to stay in the ocean long-term if they have a choice.

I like the idea of aquaculture.  One thing I have always wanted to know: With so much algae and plankton floating in the upper layers of the ocean, would it ever be practicable to build a ship capable of extracting it with centrifuges?  The concentrated biomass could then be pumped into anaerobic digester tanks on land and used to produce renewable natural gas.  I would imagine the practicality would depend upon the ratio of energy harvested over energy invested.  If the number is greater than 10, you are in business.

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#88 2017-01-30 13:02:08

Terraformer
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Re: Earths Oceans Explored - but why not colonized

Or perhaps grow seaweed on netting? When it's grown, reel it in and harvest it.


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#89 2017-01-30 20:30:10

SpaceNut
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Re: Earths Oceans Explored - but why not colonized

Every thing that is waste from growing food can go into the anaerobic digester tanks as well onboard to give the energy needs for night time use. Creating self suffieciency is one of the things that the american consumer no longer knows how or can not do...

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#90 2017-01-30 21:23:44

SpaceNut
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Re: Earths Oceans Explored - but why not colonized

This is how to stabilize the waves for a floating platform...

844e67f145e775f18a3d2230d12917ba

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#91 2017-02-12 15:47:50

Grypd
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Re: Earths Oceans Explored - but why not colonized

It should be noted that French Polynesia has signed a contract with the seasteading institute to build the first floating town.

Im not going into the hows and whys of sea level rise but french Polynesia is mostly a country of atolls and they are getting covered by the sea. The sea steading institute will build the first place where people will live permanently in a floating city.


Chan eil mi aig a bheil ùidh ann an gleidheadh an status quo; Tha mi airson cur às e.

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#92 2017-02-12 16:15:52

Void
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Re: Earths Oceans Explored - but why not colonized

Grypd:
I like it and I also refer to this:
Terraformer said:

Or perhaps grow seaweed on netting? When it's grown, reel it in and harvest it.

I recall some time ago, likely before the internet that tests revealed that that might work nicely.  Plant growth is enhanced by sea water say 6 feet deep.

Last edited by Void (2017-02-12 16:16:17)


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

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#93 2018-02-19 17:17:48

SpaceNut
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Re: Earths Oceans Explored - but why not colonized

Finally found the old topic of water world use.....

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#94 2018-11-20 19:53:34

SpaceNut
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Re: Earths Oceans Explored - but why not colonized

The issues of dumping plastics into the oceans Dead whale had 115 plastic cups, 2 flip-flops in its stomach

DeadWhale112018.jpg

I think its time we started to control what we dump into the oceans and our land...

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#95 2019-04-06 20:39:41

SpaceNut
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Re: Earths Oceans Explored - but why not colonized

We have a couple of topics that are being joined together as a result of excess plastic containers that are getting into the Oceans. Of course the recycling of plastics have gone from protecting mother earth to making money and it would seem back once more.

Analysis: Recycling isn't about the planet. It's about profit.

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#96 2019-05-02 16:47:21

SpaceNut
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Re: Earths Oceans Explored - but why not colonized

Earths ocean have many dangers within them but here is another to look out for as  Scientists track giant ocean vortex from space

The researchers analyzed sea level satellite data from 1993-2015 to understand how the Whirl changes from year to year and what it looks like under different climate conditions. Using 23 years of satellite data, the new findings show the Great Whirl is larger and longer-lived than scientists previously thought. At its peak, the giant whirlpool is, on average, 275,000 square kilometers (106,000 square miles) in area and persists for about 200 days out of the year.

The Great Whirl is a huge whirlpool that forms every spring off the coast of Somalia, when winds blowing across the Indian Ocean change direction from west to east. English geographer Alexander Findlay first described the Great Whirl in his navigational directory for the Indian Ocean in 1866.

The Great Whirl starts to form in April but its currents are deepest and strongest from June to September, during the official Indian monsoon season. A 2013 study using satellite data found that at its peak, the Whirl can grow to more than 500 kilometers (300 miles) wide, making it wider than the Grand Canyon is long.

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#97 2019-08-09 20:18:45

SpaceNut
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#98 2019-11-11 16:05:01

Grypd
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Re: Earths Oceans Explored - but why not colonized

Still though the need for underwater colonies and there high costs is still to be proved there is a case for floating cities especially to the growing class of people who wish to experiment with different societies and countries. This is a major boon to us the space advocates.


Chan eil mi aig a bheil ùidh ann an gleidheadh an status quo; Tha mi airson cur às e.

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#99 2019-11-11 18:13:40

SpaceNut
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Re: Earths Oceans Explored - but why not colonized

Not to get this topic into the political weeds as even china will take a boulder that is showing above water line and build it up to make an island....
Its sort of sad that we have abandoned oil wells that we are not allowed to recycle into ocean cities....

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