NAFTA nation for lack of a better name

SpaceNut · 2016-11-28 19:17:40

This is a topic which is being generated from the politics topic to talk about what could be a great country made up of the 3 nations which are on the North American Continent... Ya I might be dreaming but lets see if we can make a good discusion of what stopping it from happening...

Granted I started it from deportation talks but when we are unified if it ever happened what would we need to change to make such a union work....

GW wrote:

The entire southwestern US and California were once part of Mexico. The US obtained them by conquest. That means Mexico IS here, inherently, in a major part of our country today. The US government then made promises to the indigenous inhabitants of those regions about them retaining their land holdings, which it immediately broke, turning them into second- or third-class citizens. They were actually lucky at that, they could have suffered the genocide the Indians suffered. The ones in what is now New Mexico fared the best. California, Arizona, and by a different path Texas, fared the worst. The problem with illegal immigration from Mexico into the US is two-fold: (1) a disparity in economic health of the two nations that makes the US look like a better prospect for poor folks trying to make a living

So first problem Identified is how do we stop the creation of second and third class citizens as a result of such a nation forming?

GW wrote:

My own attitude is more like that of the first wave of Anglo settlers to Texas when it was still part of Mexico in the 1820's (and I chose that attitude, it was not what I was taught). They fitted in with the locals, who were very good people. It was a mix of Anglo settlers and local Mexicans who conducted the 1835-1836 war for independence from Santa Anna's Mexico, and only because they felt they had to.

I can see both nation doing this same gradual mixing as some americans like it hot and some like it a bit cooler.....

Tom Kalbfus wrote:

I thought it was a lovely picture, quite colorful, not disrespectful at all I'd say. But we're the United States of America, not Mexico, unless Mexico wants to join our Union. I'd rather have all of it or none of it.

I would agree Tom you did do it justice so lets move to the next part of the quote of all or nothing...

To me its not a take over its an agreed upon union by all parties that must happen as voted for by the people and strengthened by law.

Tom Kalbfus wrote:

You see if Mexico is a part of the United States of America, they won't be taking the Southwest back, and Mexicans can then come and go as they please! Wouldn't you like that?

Would you like this to be a map of the New United States of America? Canada is welcome to join as well or course, unless they don't like Mexicans!

Nice map of the Mexican States ... sure would make for a very large nation....

On the plus side RobertDyck would be able to work on Nasa contracts and possibly lead an expedition to Mars if all went well......

Langs_N.Amer.png

I found that the amount of native languages spoken was greater than I had imagined....

Some more maps for the collection....

elderflower · 2016-11-29 06:26:23

You missed out Miquelon.

GW Johnson · 2016-11-29 16:01:58

Didn't see Cherokee either, but the name of that language might have been something else.

On my Dad's side from Depression and WW2 era Oklahoma, I had relatives who very first birth certificate records were obtained after the fact in 1942 so they could go to work in the defense plants. Before that, such records were generally not kept in Oklahoma.

They all swore to each other's heritage. Most wanted to avoid being "Indian" at all costs, because of the stigma about it in that time and place. However, a lot of them looked the part, since genetics "will out", as they say. My paternal grandmother looked full-blood Cherokee, even though she really wasn't.

I did have one great aunt who had two birth certificates. I have copies of them both. One says she was a "white woman", the other says she was an "Indian born in Indian territory". Both seem to be valid public records, near as I can tell.

Just goes to show, I guess.

GW

SpaceNut · 2016-11-30 20:49:39

I have never heard of the two birth certificates but it would make sense to a degree as the Tribes drifted into the modern world in part by volunteering to service in the world wars. To which the coding of messages comes to mind with the Navaho. We have lost so much of those orginal nations peoples that are nearly been wiped out of existance.

I know that there is lots of turmoil with regards to the pipeline. Standing Rock Sioux tribe says the project threatens the drinking water on its nearby reservation as well as some American Indian cultural sites. So give the shovels to them and have there people do the work so as to have the proper rituals done to bless there intrution into there ground.

ap_16335603812899_custom-471800e3ac5b0555daba5aa11450453ec1de64b9-s1100-c15.jpg
Good news supplies for the camp will not be blocked....

This man's message on the sign is simple

It has to do with a disturbing rise in hate crimes.

GW Johnson · 2016-12-01 10:36:44

The Dakota Access Pipeline troubles are really about the abuse of eminent domain for profit instead of public works.

The water quality issues and disturbances to tribal burial grounds could have been avoided by simply re-routing the pipeline somewhat. But that re-route was not the lowest-cost solution.

Nothing but greed dictates causing all this fuss and bother. When you own the government officials, then (of course) they jump in on the wrong side with you. Exactly what we are seeing.

GW

kbd512 · 2016-12-01 11:27:58

There's three things the US does not have, which would be basic requirements for free trade agreements to work:

1. Mutually beneficial trades

2. Enforced borders

3. Lack of government favoritism towards any particular corporation

Corporations have to control costs to provide their products or services at competitive prices. Since labor is typically the greatest expense, they want to pay the minimum amount required to attract and retain workers who provide the best trade of labor for capital.

There seems to be a demonstrably false idea amongst liberals and like-minded pseudo-intellectuals that people are not the beneficiaries of corporate activities or that somehow taxing corporations is not taxing people. The only reason liberals get away with this malarkey is that their pervasive presence in public education systems is exploited to stupefy the overwhelming majority of the general population.

Corporations are human brain constructs committed to paper so the forgetful humans can retain their ideas and to prove the existence of their ideas to other equally forgetful humans. Without employees, corporations are only ideas. The Supreme Court decision to consider corporations to be people and to have human rights is also equally false. The individuals who work for corporations have human rights because they are human. Since corporations aren't human, corporations can't pay taxes. Only people pay taxes. Only people benefit or suffer as a result of taxation policies. No matter what accounting shell games are unnecessarily devised to unnecessarily confuse people so as to provide gainful employment for people who would otherwise be called swindlers, I assure you that it is only ever possible for people to pay taxes. The only remaining question is whether or not you want the work those people are doing to be so heavily taxed that the corporation can no longer afford to pay its employees and investors.

Any excessive taxation of corporations will cause the people who run those corporations to move operations to locations where less taxation is levied against the corporation they are responsible for running. Any good corporate officer does not want his or her corporation run into the ground. If governments (for all intents and purposes, mega corporations that feed off the work of the smaller corporations that are supposed to benefit everyone in a particular country) succeed in excessive taxation of corporations, then only people will suffer.

The excessive taxation and arbitrary labor costs is the primary reason why so many American corporations have been shut down or have moved operations to other countries. States like Washington started demanding unreasonable labor costs for serving hamburgers and fries. Corporations like McDonald's responded through automation. If there is no more affordable labor, then there are no more jobs. It really is that simple.

McDonald's was perfectly happy paying workers $7.25/hr for taking orders, because at that labor rate it could afford to employ more people and still sell hamburgers and fries at competitive prices. There was no reason to develop and implement expensive automated order kiosks when affordable labor was available. At $15/hr, different story. Although order kiosks are ultimately more efficient and reduce the incidence of incorrect orders because fewer humans are involved in the order fulfillment process, McDonald's was willing to accept the associated issues and employ more people, rather than innovate to overcome arbitrary government labor rate regulation affecting what a good or service will cost to deliver.

Unfortunately, governments typically make products more expensive and of lesser utility to the consumer. This is not to say that all cost associated with regulations is bad or not worth having. I like the fact that the FDA sets standards for what products McDonald's can sell. If McDonald's advertises their chicken nuggets as 100% chicken breast, then the FDA enforces that claim.

Liberal governments and non-educational systems have perfected Bullshido, the ancient art of bovine excrement, and now we have far too many people who believe things that simply are demonstrably false. To quote a liberal's epithet on Bill Maher's show right after Secretary Clinton lost the election to President-elect Trump, "The best thing you, as a liberal, can do is to go to a red state and start educating their children." She believes that if everyone believes in their particular style of Bullshido, then they will all vote and think the way she votes and thinks - which must necessarily be the "correct" way since she did it. Forget about the fact that the people who believe what she believes have repeatedly run their economies into the ground. If only everyone believed that course of action was the right thing to do, then somehow we'd all be better off without jobs, health care, an enforced border, or functional military. Republicans everywhere need to counter with Realitido, the ancient art of the simple truths of every day life, and never permit the practice Bullshido to go unchallenged.

Realitido says excessive taxation is harmful to the economy, successful economies require adequate labor participation rates, government spending should be minimized, and functional borders and militaries are necessary to provide safety blankets for all the people living in their own little worlds.

Tom Kalbfus · 2016-12-01 11:50:07

SpaceNut wrote:

This is a topic which is being generated from the politics topic to talk about what could be a great country made up of the 3 nations which are on the North American Continent... Ya I might be dreaming but lets see if we can make a good discusion of what stopping it from happening...
Granted I started it from deportation talks but when we are unified if it ever happened what would we need to change to make such a union work....
https://irapuato.files.wordpress.com/20 … guetza.jpg
GW wrote:
The entire southwestern US and California were once part of Mexico. The US obtained them by conquest. That means Mexico IS here, inherently, in a major part of our country today. The US government then made promises to the indigenous inhabitants of those regions about them retaining their land holdings, which it immediately broke, turning them into second- or third-class citizens. They were actually lucky at that, they could have suffered the genocide the Indians suffered. The ones in what is now New Mexico fared the best. California, Arizona, and by a different path Texas, fared the worst. The problem with illegal immigration from Mexico into the US is two-fold: (1) a disparity in economic health of the two nations that makes the US look like a better prospect for poor folks trying to make a living
So first problem Identified is how do we stop the creation of second and third class citizens as a result of such a nation forming?
GW wrote:
My own attitude is more like that of the first wave of Anglo settlers to Texas when it was still part of Mexico in the 1820's (and I chose that attitude, it was not what I was taught). They fitted in with the locals, who were very good people. It was a mix of Anglo settlers and local Mexicans who conducted the 1835-1836 war for independence from Santa Anna's Mexico, and only because they felt they had to.
I can see both nation doing this same gradual mixing as some americans like it hot and some like it a bit cooler.....
Tom Kalbfus wrote:
I thought it was a lovely picture, quite colorful, not disrespectful at all I'd say. But we're the United States of America, not Mexico, unless Mexico wants to join our Union. I'd rather have all of it or none of it.
I would agree Tom you did do it justice so lets move to the next part of the quote of all or nothing...
To me its not a take over its an agreed upon union by all parties that must happen as voted for by the people and strengthened by law.
Tom Kalbfus wrote:
You see if Mexico is a part of the United States of America, they won't be taking the Southwest back, and Mexicans can then come and go as they please! Wouldn't you like that?
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ … _Union.PNG
Would you like this to be a map of the New United States of America? Canada is welcome to join as well or course, unless they don't like Mexicans!
Nice map of the Mexican States ... sure would make for a very large nation....
On the plus side RobertDyck would be able to work on Nasa contracts and possibly lead an expedition to Mars if all went well......
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ … N.Amer.png
I found that the amount of native languages spoken was greater than I had imagined....
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ … Canada.png
Some more maps for the collection....

I think I counted 40 more states if we added both Mexico and Canada, the Mexican states were hard to count, some of those states were quite tiny, and their borders were convoluted, and in addition some Mexican states are completely surrounded by other Mexican states, I don't know who drew those borders, but under the US Constitution, each one of those new states would get 2 US Senators and at least one House of Representatives Congressman, that means under a Presidential election, each one of those new states would have at least 3 electoral votes. The Electoral College would make Canada a more conservative place than it is now, because it wouldn't be quite so dominated by its cities as it is now. I wonder what Canadian "flyover country" would be like Nunavut would get three electoral votes, would the Eskamos like that? I wonder how conservative or liberal the native indigenous people of Canada would be. As for Mexico, they have a lot of tiny states down south, each one of those little states would get 3 electoral votes minimum. How would that change the piolitics of the Mexico region?

Tom Kalbfus · 2016-12-01 11:56:15

GW Johnson wrote:

Didn't see Cherokee either, but the name of that language might have been something else.
On my Dad's side from Depression and WW2 era Oklahoma, I had relatives who very first birth certificate records were obtained after the fact in 1942 so they could go to work in the defense plants. Before that, such records were generally not kept in Oklahoma.
They all swore to each other's heritage. Most wanted to avoid being "Indian" at all costs, because of the stigma about it in that time and place. However, a lot of them looked the part, since genetics "will out", as they say. My paternal grandmother looked full-blood Cherokee, even though she really wasn't.
I did have one great aunt who had two birth certificates. I have copies of them both. One says she was a "white woman", the other says she was an "Indian born in Indian territory". Both seem to be valid public records, near as I can tell.
Just goes to show, I guess.
GW

There is not much stigma for Indians except that left over from those old Western Movies, Hollywood doesn't make them anymore! You ever meet a Commanche by any chance? Of all the Indian Tribes, the Commanche had the most brutal reputation.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article … alive.html

SpaceNut · 2016-12-01 20:43:10

Corporate taxes are a problem but placing all the taxes on the individuals does not work either....I do remember a time when a corporation had retirement pensions which they managed for those that did make a career out of working for the company and ya the wage earned back then was a bit lower but you had that nest egg to look forward to. Then came the rising taxes, increases in wages, enviromental restaints and a falling profit margin to which by and by went the retirement pensions. Corporations then looked to find places that would work for by far less and so went the jobs to other nations......leaving americans to make careers from those McDonalds jobs....So I have been through the era's of out sourcing, down sizing and right sizing of corporations in there search of profits and not caring about the people that work for them.....and to get the profits they have resorted to not having many full time employees in efforts to lower there taxes, benefit packages and so much more....

Antius · 2016-12-01 21:03:49

Bottom line is, North America is a North European country in terms of ethnicity and cultural outlook. Mexico is an asiatic ethnicity. People of different ethnic backgrounds (race if you prefer) tend to form different nations and tend to be suspicious of each other. Basically, the less two peoples have in common ethnically, the more difficult it becomes for them to see each other as countrymen. That is quite deeply engrained within us, basically human evolution at work. It is why the English and Scottish are able to reluctantly form a common nation, but the asian communities in Britain form insular third world colonies. They are different people, they think differently, look different and their outlook and priorities in life are different. For these reasons it would be much easier for Canada and the US to achieve an act of union than it would for Mexico and the US. They are similar peoples. Ethnic divisions breed suspicion, conflict and hatred. The best way to avoid that is to respect the fact that they are different, that nature made them that way and keep them separate. Good fences make good neighbours.

Last edited by Antius (2016-12-01 21:11:06)

Tom Kalbfus · 2016-12-02 00:10:02

Antius wrote:

Bottom line is, North America is a North European country in terms of ethnicity and cultural outlook. Mexico is an asiatic ethnicity. People of different ethnic backgrounds (race if you prefer) tend to form different nations and tend to be suspicious of each other. Basically, the less two peoples have in common ethnically, the more difficult it becomes for them to see each other as countrymen. That is quite deeply engrained within us, basically human evolution at work. It is why the English and Scottish are able to reluctantly form a common nation, but the asian communities in Britain form insular third world colonies. They are different people, they think differently, look different and their outlook and priorities in life are different. For these reasons it would be much easier for Canada and the US to achieve an act of union than it would for Mexico and the US. They are similar peoples. Ethnic divisions breed suspicion, conflict and hatred. The best way to avoid that is to respect the fact that they are different, that nature made them that way and keep them separate. Good fences make good neighbours.

Gee, I didn't know that Spain was an Asian country!

There are a lot of Mexicans in the United States, a lot of them are here illegally, they sneak across the borders, so it seems they don't like their country so much, as they are leaving it. I figure a merger between our two countries would save them the trouble of sneaking across our borders and living in the shadows. They want legal status, I say the price for this is that Mexico becomes part of the United States, a lot of Democrats would just like to give away legal status for free to anyone who sneaks across the border, that is what I call a bad deal! If the Mexicans want to be Americans so badly, then we should give it to them, if not, they have no business being in our country! But we should give nothing away for free, if Mexicans want to come and go as they please, then they should become a part of the United States, that way as United States citizens, no one will harass them.

Last edited by Tom Kalbfus (2016-12-02 00:16:10)

Terraformer · 2016-12-02 07:01:51

Tom, my understanding is that Latin American countries are generally populated by mestizos, and since Native Americans are Asiatic in origin, that makes them Eurasian by descent.

On the other hand, that seems to be the way Alaska is going, as European Americans move up there and marry Native Americans, and there are parts of Canada that have large Metis populations. What that means for national unity, I do not know.

America itself, though, isn't a single nation (NOT the same as country). Not even European Americans form a single nation - the Appalachians aren't the same as the New Englanders, being of different ancestry and cultures.

Tom Kalbfus · 2016-12-02 08:42:17

Native American

Mongolian
35mmPatrikWallnerChina_ShenzhenChinesePersonLOWQ-730x487.jpg
Chinese person
They don't look the same.
Latin America was colonized by Spain and Portugal, both are European countries, and just like in North America, those places south of here were inhabited by Native Americans. The Spanish Colonists were spread out over a larger area than their British counterparts, it Brazil it was Portuguese colonists.
Yes some of the Native American's ancestors came from Asia, but not all, some of their ancestors came from Europe, that is why their eyes look rounder that the pictures of the Mongolian and Chinese person, and this all happened during the last ice age. You heard of the Clovis Point People perhaps? During the last ice age North American was full of immigrants, some from Asia and some from Europe, over time they blended together so they look neither like Europeans or Asians today. That process is again happening in North America today.

Void · 2016-12-02 10:34:10

I suppose I am jumping into hell here, but I think some of these things are fascinating.

Here is one you might not have expected:
http://www.nature.com/news/dna-study-li … ns-1.12710
http://www.ancient-origins.net/news-gen … -how-00315

And native American genes in the Easter Island Gene pool. (The most Eastern Polyneasian culture previously recognized.

The notions of race being used for political advantage are to a large extent falsehoods propagated by all sorts of entities. The half truths used are sinister.

The one thing you need to know is that Americans have to put up with extreme left and right people who come here from damaged old world orders. We put up with them to some degree, our patience is wearing thin.

At least one of the articles indicates that this result is from slave trade, but I think that is an insult to the Polyneasians, who I think were really rather advanced. I think they could have done it all on their own.

The slave theory fits in with the popular post colonial notions promoted for geopolitical purposes. I am sorry to see that they managed to warp information to their purposes in this case, but I do not dismiss that the slave theory could also be a factor. Practically any genome might have traveled by that.

By the way, we are now in the post-post colonial world. These tricks aren't going to work very well anymore.

Last edited by Void (2016-12-02 10:42:42)

Antius · 2016-12-02 13:50:28

Void wrote:

I suppose I am jumping into hell here, but I think some of these things are fascinating.
Here is one you might not have expected:
http://www.nature.com/news/dna-study-li … ns-1.12710
http://www.ancient-origins.net/news-gen … -how-00315
And native American genes in the Easter Island Gene pool. (The most Eastern Polyneasian culture previously recognized.
The notions of race being used for political advantage are to a large extent falsehoods propagated by all sorts of entities. The half truths used are sinister.
The one thing you need to know is that Americans have to put up with extreme left and right people who come here from damaged old world orders. We put up with them to some degree, our patience is wearing thin.
At least one of the articles indicates that this result is from slave trade, but I think that is an insult to the Polyneasians, who I think were really rather advanced. I think they could have done it all on their own.
The slave theory fits in with the popular post colonial notions promoted for geopolitical purposes. I am sorry to see that they managed to warp information to their purposes in this case, but I do not dismiss that the slave theory could also be a factor. Practically any genome might have traveled by that.
By the way, we are now in the post-post colonial world. These tricks aren't going to work very well anymore.

The Polynesians were seafarers and colonised the entirety of the southern Pacific islands. This would have required them to journey over several hundred miles of open ocean in a single journey. If they can reach Easter Island, it shouldn't be particularly surprising that the reached the western coast of South America. In fact, it would be surprising if they hadn't.

Tom Kalbfus · 2016-12-03 02:21:06

No one reached Iceland until the Vikings arrived there, they found no native inhabitants other than themselves!

Void · 2016-12-03 10:32:23

Maybe not Tommie
http://www.electricscotland.com/history/early3.htm
I am not going to certify this as proven, but it touches on what I have previously read, and what intuitively can understand.

It is an interesting read however.

My previous understanding is that "Irish" monks inhabited Iceland prior to the Vikings.
As for so called Ireland, it was called Scotland during the time of the Romans, and Scotland was called Pictland. Ha Ha.

th?&id=OIP.M734260ed9569fdb2e2bad99388c87803o0&w=225&h=299&c=0&pid=1.9&rs=0&p=0&r=0

The Romans claimed that the Picts were naked headhunters with tattoos (Pictures-Pict ), who ran around in the snow.

The Scots moved from the island of Scotland, and settled relatively peacefully with the picts in Pictland, (Supposedly), Somehow the island of Scotland was renamed Ireland, and Pictland was renamed as Scotland.

The curious matter is that there is supposedly evidence of a civilization on the northern coast of "Scotland", or if you wish, the northern reaches of the island of Brittan.

And it was at one time thought that the Picts might be Assyrians or American Indians, because they had dark skins.
But it turns out that people living in North West Europe had dark skins and blue eyes 7000 years ago, so no need for an exotic story for that.

http://www.foxnews.com/science/2014/01/ … -gene.html

White skin apparently came from the Middle East

Blue Eyes showed up 14,000 to 10,000 years ago. It is a recessive trait. So, how come about 1 billion people have blue eyes now?
How can that possibly happen if recessive traits are supposed to leave the gene pool?

And there have been stories of the Inuit showing up on Scotland.

So go figure.

Last edited by Void (2016-12-03 10:52:28)

SpaceNut · 2016-12-03 10:48:50

I remember that Thor Heyerdahl Sea Routes to Polynesia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thor_Heyerdahl
He also built two boats from papyrus and attempted to cross the Atlantic Ocean from Morocco in Africa.

Void · 2016-12-03 10:57:14

Yes, there are segments of history that can be re-considered. With the polyneasians, and so called Europeans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Ban … wfoundland

quote:

While there is no archaeological evidence for a European presence near the Grand Banks between the short-lived Greenland Norse settlement at L'Anse aux Meadows in CE 1000 and John Cabot's transatlantic crossing in 1497, there is some evidence that voyagers from Portugal,[2] the Basque Region[3] and England (especially those from Bristol)[4] and others[5] preceded Cabot.[6] In the 15th century some texts refer to a land called Bacalao, the land of the codfish, which is possibly Newfoundland. Within a few years of Cabot's voyage the existence of fishing grounds on the Grand Banks became generally known in Europe. Ships from France and Portugal were first to fish there, followed by those from Spain while ships from England were scarce in the early years.[7] This soon changed especially after Bernard Drake's devastating raid in 1585 which virtually wiped out the Spanish and Portuguese fishing industry in this area.[8] These fish stocks thus became important for the early economies of eastern Canada and New England.

http://www.christopher-columbus.ch/essay.html
One story has it that Columbus sailed to Iceland before his famous voyage. The Icelanders kept very good records. And of course the Settlements in Greenland were very real.

You didn't read that in your school textbooks, did you?

There is a reality out there, but what it is, I don't think we really know.

Last edited by Void (2016-12-03 11:01:04)

SpaceNut · 2016-12-03 20:10:41

Tom there are more Indian images which do have those features.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_Am … ted_States

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenou … e_Americas

List of indigenous peoples: 156 total

SpaceNut · 2016-12-03 22:06:53

I got thinking about the pipeline going under the water and remembered that solar thermal hot water using antifreeze before food grade used double walled piping in the exchanger.

So when the pipeline is bored under the water one would place a liner inside the tube before running the pipe trough it solving the problem of possible leaks from it once it had aged......That would be cheaper than continued delay, rerouting of the pipeline and would appease each party....

SpaceNut · 2016-12-04 18:52:46

I have been watching this protest unfold and seeing the rise in the numbers there to support the Indian nations stance. Most recently there was the evacuation order and the following commital to protect after one had been harmed by recent tear gassing and water gun use. The Standing Rock Sioux tribe and others say the pipeline north of the reservation could pollute drinking water and threatens sacred sites. Meanwhile, a military veterans group announced that at least 2,000 vets would "deploy" to the area on Sunday to defend the demonstrators if local authorities move in to clear out the camp this weekend. Iron Shell, a member of the Oglala Lakota Tribe, is also a descendant of Chief Iron Shell, a widely respected Brule Sioux chief who was among the first tribal leaders to sign the 1868 Treaty of Fort Laramie, which established the Great Sioux Reservation, a vast territory that has since been cut down by acts of Congress into checkerboard remnants of its original version.

Showdown Looms at Dakota Access Pipeline Protest as Vets, Civil Rights Observers Converge Before Evacuation Deadline

Emergency Officials: We Won't Let Pipeline Protesters Freeze

At Least 2,000 Veterans Arrive at Standing Rock to Protest Dakota Pipeline

Wesley Clarke, Jr., who is among those mobilizing fellow veterans, said on the GoFundMe page he established that he and fellow organizers "are calling for our fellow veterans to assemble as a peaceful, unarmed militia at the Standing Rock Indian Reservation." That GoFundMe campaign has raised over $900,000 in support.
Their mission is to "defend water protectors from assault and intimidation at the hands of the militarized police force and DAPL security," Clarke added.

Army Corps Will Not Grant Easement for Dakota Access Pipeline Crossing

Senator Bernie Sanders applauded the Army Corps decision today, saying in a statement "in the year 2016, we should not continue to trample on Native American sovereignty. We should not endanger the water supply of millions of people." I hoped even a lawless president wouldn’t continue to ignore the rule of law.

This is what makes America Great not just a president with a catch phrase.....

Tom Kalbfus · 2016-12-04 20:56:36

I hear OPEC has been cutting back on production ad the price of crude is going up! You think any Arab countries will be making any donations to native American tribes in the future?

SpaceNut · 2016-12-04 23:35:57

But the value is drinking water for human and animal alike, try drinking some crude.....

just another image of what makes america great....

AAkXAS1.img?h=401&w=624&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f&x=1005&y=349

Tom Kalbfus · 2016-12-05 03:17:24

Do you think the oil companies want to spill oil or sell it? Do you think they would intentionally build a leaky pipeline so they would lose some of that oil for the purpose of polluting someone's drinking water? Also consider the number of people that would be affected by an accidental oil spill versus the number of people that would be affected by higher oil prices and the number of people that would be affected by the terrorist attacks financed by those higher oil prices. Not many people live in the affected region and that is only if the pipes leak. I am all for defeating OPEC. I don't want to pay people for praying to Allah as part of the cost for getting my gasoline. I don't want anything to do with the Middle East, and their crazy fanatical hate filled ways, and I don't want to pay these people for oil, I dn't want the price of oil going up to benefit them! Anything we can do to bring the price of oil down, we should be doing, if the Native Americans are afraid of oil spills they can move, there is plenty of land to either side of the oil pipeline that won't be affected in case the pipeline spills, there are more people who would be affected by terrorist attacks or a higher price of gasoline. I'd rather pay people to drill for oil in Canada than to pay for people to pray to Allah, it is as simple as that!

Also the alternative to an oil pipeline is a fleet of tanker trucks shuttling back and forth from the oil fields of Canada to the refineries in America. Do you remember the television show Ice Road Truckers? Each one of those trucks has a chance of having an accident and spilling their load of oil, this is inevitable, because there are a lot of trucks on the road, or in the case of ice road truckers on the ice, These trucks move at around 60 miles per hour, and everyday there is an accident on the highway, several in fact, I wake up each morning to find several highways blocked by various accidents, now what if some of those accidents involve oil tanker trucks? A pipeline only spills if it leaks, and a pipeline does not leak every day, if it does leak, someone fixes it. Pipelines spill less oil per amount shipped than a fleet of oil tanker trucks moving the same amount of oil! Do the Indians want a fleet of oil tanker trucks moving through their area, having accidents, and spilling their oil?

Everything has a price of a cost, I figure the Indians who are so afraid of oil spills can move, and that is a lesser cost than a city being nuked by a bomb financed by oil sales from the Middle East.

Last edited by Tom Kalbfus (2016-12-05 03:27:02)

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