Time to go! As much water as Lake Superior- MarsColony Green Light!

louis · 2016-11-25 11:05:33

http://www.psrd.hawaii.edu/Jan11/mineralogy-Mars.html

Assuming I am reading the iron concentration map correctly, it would look like a location of 18 N and 120 E in Utopia Planitia would give you iron concentrations of 15-17%.

Somewhere around there looks good for water and iron and you also have a fairly short journey to areas of greater geological interest, and other minerals.

Tom Kalbfus · 2016-11-25 21:50:35

Antius wrote:

louis wrote:
Are you sure about that? It's not just bones at a macro level we are talking about but cells at a nano level. Anyway, I would also hope that 0.38 is "good enough". Certainly in terms of bone stressing, with weighted suits and shoes I would think it is.
Tom Kalbfus wrote:
It is useless to sleep in a 1-G centrifuge, because you sleep lying down and the weight is taken off those bones, plus there is wear and tear on the centrifuge. Either 0.38 G is enough or its not. Whether people can live permanently in 0.38 G will determine whether we can have a colony, or we can genetically engineer human beings to live there.
Yes. Bed rest reliably simulates the effects of weightlessness on the bones and cardiovascular system and is often used in peer reviewed studies as a proxy for weightlessness. Really, you want full gravity in situations where people are going to be walking or performing physical work. Spend six months in micro-G and so far as your body is concerned, you have spent six months laying in bed.
Take a look at this:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4540860/
This leads me to believe that people who are active in Martian Gravity, will tend to be healthier than those leading a sedentary life in Earth gravity. If you are sitting or lying most of the day, bone metabolism is severely impacted regardless of gravity level. This certainly gives me pause for thought, as I sit behind a desk pumping out word documents for much of the time that I am awake.

Also you will be carrying the weight of the space suit, engineers will want to weigh it down so that astronauts can spend the maximum amount of time outside doing useful things, this means tanks of oxygen, nitrogen, and water. You can weigh down the suit with these things until the weight of the astronaut plus the suit approaches just the weight of the astronaut on Earth, this is a big help. the problem comes when the astronauts are inside the dome, where they weigh only 0.38 of their Earth weight.

Quaoar · 2016-11-26 05:25:09

The trouble with Utopia Planitia is that it's a bit northern and during the winter the climate might be too cold for the astronauts. The goal would be to find a buried glacier near the equator, in places like Vallis Marinaris or Elysium Planitia.

elderflower · 2016-11-26 05:35:58

Keeping a suited astronaut warm isn't very difficult. People keep warm in Antarctica or on Everest by wearing suitable clothes. Astronauts can do the same. It will actually be easier on Mars because the heat transfer to the thin atmosphere is much lower.

louis · 2016-11-26 05:45:32

I would think lead boots and a kind of lead yoke over the shoulders could be worn inside. Lead weighs about 11 tonnes per cubic metre. So on that basis, for a person weighing about 70 gks, I think you'd need about 0.01 of a cubic metre of lead = 10000 cubic centimetres. That's about 22 x 22 x 22 centimetres. I think that could be easily incorporated into overalls and boots.

Tom Kalbfus wrote:

Antius wrote:
louis wrote:
Are you sure about that? It's not just bones at a macro level we are talking about but cells at a nano level. Anyway, I would also hope that 0.38 is "good enough". Certainly in terms of bone stressing, with weighted suits and shoes I would think it is.
Yes. Bed rest reliably simulates the effects of weightlessness on the bones and cardiovascular system and is often used in peer reviewed studies as a proxy for weightlessness. Really, you want full gravity in situations where people are going to be walking or performing physical work. Spend six months in micro-G and so far as your body is concerned, you have spent six months laying in bed.
Take a look at this:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4540860/
This leads me to believe that people who are active in Martian Gravity, will tend to be healthier than those leading a sedentary life in Earth gravity. If you are sitting or lying most of the day, bone metabolism is severely impacted regardless of gravity level. This certainly gives me pause for thought, as I sit behind a desk pumping out word documents for much of the time that I am awake.
Also you will be carrying the weight of the space suit, engineers will want to weigh it down so that astronauts can spend the maximum amount of time outside doing useful things, this means tanks of oxygen, nitrogen, and water. You can weigh down the suit with these things until the weight of the astronaut plus the suit approaches just the weight of the astronaut on Earth, this is a big help. the problem comes when the astronauts are inside the dome, where they weigh only 0.38 of their Earth weight.

louis · 2016-11-26 05:50:31

It extends quite far south - I am suggesting the southern tip - around 18 degrees north perhaps.

As others have explained, the external temperature per se won't be an issue for the humans on the missions. I think latitude is more of an issue for operation of equipment and efficiency of PV panels. The position of the planet's axis also means the seasonal variation is less defined than on Earth...at least that's my understanding. In other words, there is less temperature variation on Mars in relation to latitude than on Earth.

Quaoar wrote:

The trouble with Utopia Planitia is that it's a bit northern and during the winter the climate might be too cold for the astronauts. The goal would be to find a buried glacier near the equator, in places like Vallis Marinaris or Elysium Planitia.

SpaceNut · 2016-11-26 18:32:54

Its one of the reasons that the rovers spirit and oportunity needed to tilt there cells toward the sun during the winter months as to be able to collect enough energy just to survive let along move about much.
So when can the next demostrator mission land in either of the above location?
Maybe the 2020 rover will be sent to one of these.

Void · 2016-11-27 14:22:20

Louis,

I see another advantage of the location you suggest.
I have seen it said that when the atmosphere has been put to a average surface pressure of 11 mb or more Earth like snowfall is possible.

Just now, I think the relatively stable locations for water ice condensation are the polar ice caps. This I think occurs due to direct frost condensation, and also possibly a different kind of snow where CO2 snows out and perhaps carries some water ice down with it.

This process may have actually worked to a degree at the Viking lander further south, at least once?
(Borrowed pictures)

So, I noticed that in the northern plains, there are two areas that approach a deeper blue, and one of them includes the Viking 2 and the ice deposits that we are talking about.

So, here is the point. By slight terraforming of the atmosphere say doubling it or more, Dust/Water snow precipitation could be possible, but this should happen more at lower altitudes with cold enough temperatures, such as the Viking 2 location, "Mars' Utopia Planitia region".

At the same time however, having put enough greenhouse gasses into the atmosphere of Mars, to cause that much CO2 to evaporate from the ice caps, then the dust/CO2/Water snow precipitation process will have been at least partially inhibited.

So, even though the axial tilt of Mars is not favorable to it at this time, by doubling or more the atmospheric pressure of Mars, it may be that the precipitation process will better favor long term accumulation to places like Utopia Planitia, and may also tend to erode the amount of ice held in the polar ice caps. The bias for that will be increased. I don't know for sure that the magnitude change of that bias will be sufficient to cause the water transfer, but it might. So that makes it possible that Utopia Planitia is in fact the place to go, preferentially at it's southern edge.

As for gravity deficiency, I am rather sure that hyperloop synthetic gravity technology will help, if all the other suggestions prove to be an insufficient treatment.

Louis said:

It extends quite far south - I am suggesting the southern tip - around 18 degrees north perhaps.
As others have explained, the external temperature per se won't be an issue for the humans on the missions. I think latitude is more of an issue for operation of equipment and efficiency of PV panels. The position of the planet's axis also means the seasonal variation is less defined than on Earth...at least that's my understanding. In other words, there is less temperature variation on Mars in relation to latitude than on Earth.
Quaoar wrote:
The trouble with Utopia Planitia is that it's a bit northern and during the winter the climate might be too cold for the astronauts. The goal would be to find a buried glacier near the equator, in places like Vallis Marinaris or Elysium Planitia.
Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

Last edited by Void (2016-11-27 14:44:53)

SpaceNut · 2016-11-27 19:21:39

Here is a crater named map of mars to help with identification of that perfect spot to land in....

Void · 2016-11-28 21:47:11

I see from your map, Hellas is not that hard to reach from Utopia Planetia. Ha Ha.

Well if you have the means. That is relative, to other travel locations of interest. Hopper, Hyperloop, Canal.

I am just saying, if you wanted to you might plant a secondary colony in Hellas after Utopia Planetia, plant it near a glacier.

We could also hope that Hellas would be a "Snowbelt" if terraforming was conducted in a certain way.

A wet (Snow belt) Hellas would be of value, and a place for some people do go during the long Northern winters.

Of course Hellas Planetia, is even better for eventual pressurization than Utopia Planetia.

Hellas may be a natural southern snow belt when the conditions favor a somewhat higher atmospheric pressure, but I sense that most if it tends to be arid over typical conditions. The higher pressure, likely aids greater evaporation?

Not sure. But it does possibly have glaciers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellas_Planitia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellas_Pl … e_glaciers

Quote:

Radar images by the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter (MRO) spacecraft's SHARAD radar sounder suggest that features called lobate debris aprons in three craters in the eastern region of Hellas Planitia are actually glaciers of water ice lying buried beneath layers of dirt and rock.[15] The buried ice in these craters as measured by SHARAD is about 250 m (820 ft) thick on the upper crater and about 300 m (980 ft) and 450 m (1,480 ft) on the middle and lower levels respectively. Scientists believe that snow and ice accumulated on higher topography, flowed downhill, and is now protected from sublimation by a layer of rock debris and dust. Furrows and ridges on the surface were caused by deforming ice.
Also, the shapes of many features in Hellas Planitia and other parts of Mars are strongly suggestive of glaciers, as the surface looks as if movement has taken place.

So, perhaps the majority of the personal moved back and fourth between Utopia Planetia, and Hellas Planetia with seasonality. Mars having a year about 2 times as long as Earth, it does make some sense if you could do it.

Last edited by Void (2016-11-28 22:02:19)

Antius · 2016-11-30 06:07:53

Hellas is a long way from Utopia Planetia. There is about a thousand miles of rough terrain in between. Further down the road to colonisation we may develop the ability to produce pipelines that can transport water over that distance. But in the early days, we would want our base as close as possible to the source of water.

Of course, water is not the only resource that we need. But it would appear to be the most important one. Utopia may have another advantage that it is surrounded by the enormous flat expanse of the northern basin. That makes it relatively easy to access other parts of the planet compared to Hellas, which would require first leaving the Hellas basin then traversing the comparatively rough southern terrain.

On the other hand, Hellas has a lower elevation and therefore lower surface dose rate from cosmic rays. Hellas is about the same distance from the equator as southern Utopia, so agriculture would face similar challenges from the cold.

Although it would appear to be a relatively wasteful use of the resource, a large nuclear power plant at Utopia could be cooled by water evaporation. This is a much more compact heat sink than a radiator and it would allow the use of a light water reactor, which is an off the shelf nuclear technology that we could build in large sizes. One could build the pressure vessel using post-stressed concrete and manufacture pipework and turbines from Martian steels. Not a short term project, but as our colony grows into a city, the presence of a large easily accessible source of water opens up a lot of options.

Last edited by Antius (2016-11-30 06:29:35)

Void · 2016-11-30 13:15:06

Yes, but what I propose is intended to string out over a long period of time, but before the entire planet is "Terraformed" what ever that ends up being.

Please see:
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=7509&p=3
Post #57.

SpaceNut · 2016-11-30 23:10:25

Here is another map of water as posted in that other topic....

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#26 2016-11-25 11:05:33

Re: Time to go! As much water as Lake Superior- MarsColony Green Light!

#27 2016-11-25 21:50:35

Re: Time to go! As much water as Lake Superior- MarsColony Green Light!

#28 2016-11-26 05:25:09

Re: Time to go! As much water as Lake Superior- MarsColony Green Light!

#29 2016-11-26 05:35:58

Re: Time to go! As much water as Lake Superior- MarsColony Green Light!

#30 2016-11-26 05:45:32

Re: Time to go! As much water as Lake Superior- MarsColony Green Light!

#31 2016-11-26 05:50:31

Re: Time to go! As much water as Lake Superior- MarsColony Green Light!

#32 2016-11-26 18:32:54

Re: Time to go! As much water as Lake Superior- MarsColony Green Light!

#33 2016-11-27 14:22:20

Re: Time to go! As much water as Lake Superior- MarsColony Green Light!

#34 2016-11-27 19:21:39

Re: Time to go! As much water as Lake Superior- MarsColony Green Light!

#35 2016-11-28 21:47:11

Re: Time to go! As much water as Lake Superior- MarsColony Green Light!

#36 2016-11-30 06:07:53

Re: Time to go! As much water as Lake Superior- MarsColony Green Light!

#37 2016-11-30 13:15:06

Re: Time to go! As much water as Lake Superior- MarsColony Green Light!

#38 2016-11-30 23:10:25

Re: Time to go! As much water as Lake Superior- MarsColony Green Light!

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