Nat Geo Mars

RobertDyck · 2016-11-17 00:41:57

National Geographic started their mini-series titled "Mars". First episode was Monday. Friday 8:00pm, 11:00pm, Saturday 11:00am, Sunday 6:00pm, 9:00pm, and Monday @ 7:00pm.

Next episode will air Monday @ 8:00pm. It's on the NATGC channel, Shaw channel 93 or 241 for HD.

Series website is: http://video.nationalgeographic.com/vid … n-mars-sci

The website has a trailer, clips, as well as the full video of the current episode. However, to view the full episode you have to select your cable provider and log-in. They don't list Canadian cable companies, it appears to be only American ones. It does have "behind the scenes" video with actors and directors. "Before Mars" is a short episode only available online, back story of two astronaut characters. A mock "astronaut recruiting" video. And virtual reality simulations of rocket landing and rover piloting.

The series combines descriptions of real-life efforts, as well as a fictional depiction of the first human mission to Mars. It's based on Elon Musk's plan for SpaceX. I think it grandiose to think the first human mission will be on a ship sized for 100 astronauts. I think a Mars Direct style mission should come first, with 4 to 6 astronauts. But this sort of thing is what Hollywood likes, and promotes SpaceX. There's a link for Elon's Master Plan as well. It's text, but also has a video of what SpaceX is seriously trying to build.

The first episode has 6 astronauts ride the SpaceX ship to Mars. First, why would only 6 crew members fly a ship sized for 100? That's completely unrealistic. However, that's the crew to ship ratio that Hollywood keeps doing. In this episode electronics fail, the ones for RCS thrusters. The captain has to swap a circuit board from a backup system for the failed system. He crawls down an unrealistically long corridor, which of course develops gravity while he's in it. He gets the board to work last second, of course. And why would the ship use large, bulky circuit boards? Then, of course the ship starts atmospheric entry resulting in high-G as he's in the long vertical corridor, so of course he falls to the floor causing serious injury. The ship then lands 75.6 km off course. But the ship doesn't have a rover onboard, despite the fact it's a ship for 100 people but only carrying 6. And the ship only has 3 days of life support if it doesn't connect via umbilical to pre-landed equipment. Why would the first ever human mission to Mars not have self-contained life support? And why would a ship sized for 100 crew only have life support to last 3 days with 6 crew members?

The Mars Colonial Transport will depend upon ISPP to refuel the spacecraft to return to Earth. That means it depends on a working ISPP plant to be pre-landed and operational on Mars. I still argue that this means a smaller crew will have to prepare the Mars base before the first MCT arrives.

Notice the difference with Mars Direct. The hab is entirely self-sufficient, doesn't require anything other than what it carries for full duration stay on Mars. The ERV is their ride home, but the ERV carries everything it needs to produce propellant. Astronauts do not leave Earth until telemetry indicates the ERV is fully refuelled and ready to return to Earth. And in case the hab does land off-course, carries a rover with sufficient fuel for 1,000 km one-way trip to get to the ERV. And as an additional backup, a second ERV follows the hab. So the dramatic disaster just depicted in this TV show wouldn't happen, that scenario is fully prepared for.

Last edited by RobertDyck (2016-11-17 15:45:32)

louis · 2016-11-17 11:12:41

Was that the right link Robert? Anyway - here's the one I have to take you straight to the trailers:

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/m … trailer-1/

Sounds like the usual Hollywood hokum! Annoying I know, but it has some basis at least in reality and so may help spread interest in the Mars mission.

I agree with you entirely that everything points to a small crew getting a rudimentary base established before you start flying 100s in and that doesn't require an MCT.

As soon as you think about the detail as well, you see that flying in 100 "settlers" drawn from all over the world, with varying skill levels, different personalities, a range of cultural biases and opinions is going to create a whole host of managerial issues and problems, that a more traditional "space agency command" structure avoids.

Some of my forebears were amongst those unsung migrants who went to the USA and then decided they preferred it back in the UK ! That's the first thing you have to think about: how many of the 100 are going to be homesick, or just realise that Mars is not for them...? If you can't immediately get them back to Earth, they are going to be a negative element in your population.

RobertDyck wrote:

National Geographic started their mini-series titled "Mars". First episode was Monday. Friday 8:00pm, 11:00pm, Saturday 11:00am, Sunday 6:00pm, 9:00pm, and Monday @ 7:00pm.
Next episode will air Monday @ 8:00pm. It's on the NATGC channel, Shaw channel 93 or 241 for HD.
Series website is: http://video.nationalgeographic.com/vid … n-mars-sci
The website has a trailer, clips, as well as the full video of the current episode. However, to view the full episode you have to select your cable provider and log-in. They don't list Canadian cable companies, it appears to be only American ones. It does have "behind the scenes" video with actors and directors. "Before Mars" is a short episode only available online, back story of two astronaut characters. A mock "astronaut recruiting" video. And virtual reality simulations of rocket landing and rover piloting.
The series combines descriptions of real-life efforts, as well as a fictional depiction of the first human mission to Mars. It's based on Elon Musk's plan for SpaceX. I think it grandiose to think the first human mission will be on a ship sized for 100 astronauts. I think a Mars Direct style mission should come first, with 4 to 6 astronauts. But this sort of thing is what Hollywood likes, and promotes SpaceX. There's a link for Elon's Master Plan as well. It's text, but also has a video of what SpaceX is seriously trying to build.
The first episode has 6 astronauts ride the SpaceX ship to Mars. First, why would only 6 crew members fly a ship sized for 100? That's completely unrealistic. However, that's the crew to ship ratio that Hollywood keeps doing. In this episode electronics fail, the ones for RCS thrusters. The captain has to swap a circuit board from a backup system for the failed system. He crawls down an unrealistically long corridor, which of course develops gravity while he's in it. He gets the board to work last second, of course. And why would the ship use large, bulky circuit boards? Then, of course the ship starts atmospheric entry resulting in high-G as he's in the long vertical corridor, so of course he falls to the floor causing serious injury. The ship then lands 75.6 km off course. But the ship doesn't have a rover onboard, despite the fact it's a ship for 100 people but only carrying 6. And the ship only has 3 days of life support if it doesn't connect to via umbilical to pre-landed equipment. Why would the first ever human mission to Mars not have self-contained life support? And why would a ship sized for 100 crew only have life support to last 3 days with 6 crew members?
The Mars Colonial Transport will depend upon ISPP to refuel the spacecraft to return to Earth. That means it depends on a working ISPP plant to be pre-landed and operational on Mars. I still argue that this means a smaller crew will have to prepare the Mars base before the first MCT arrives.
Notice the difference with Mars Direct. The hab is entirely self-sufficient, doesn't require anything other than what it carries for full duration stay on Mars. The ERV is their ride home, but the ERV carries everything it need to produce propellant. Astronauts do not leave Earth until telemetry indicates the ERV is fully refuelled and ready to return to Earth. And in case the hab does land off-course, carries are rover with sufficient fuel for 1,000 km one-way trip to get to the ERV. And as an additional backup, a second ERV follows the hab. So the dramatic disaster just depicted in this TV show wouldn't happen, that scenario is fully prepared for.

Tom Kalbfus · 2016-11-17 11:32:00

louis wrote:

Was that the right link Robert? Anyway - here's the one I have to take you straight to the trailers:
http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/m … trailer-1/
Sounds like the usual Hollywood hokum! Annoying I know, but it has some basis at least in reality and so may help spread interest in the Mars mission.
I agree with you entirely that everything points to a small crew getting a rudimentary base established before you start flying 100s in and that doesn't require an MCT.
As soon as you think about the detail as well, you see that flying in 100 "settlers" drawn from all over the world, with varying skill levels, different personalities, a range of cultural biases and opinions is going to create a whole host of managerial issues and problems, that a more traditional "space agency command" structure avoids.
Some of my forebears were amongst those unsung migrants who went to the USA and then decided they preferred it back in the UK ! That's the first thing you have to think about: how many of the 100 are going to be homesick, or just realise that Mars is not for them...? If you can't immediately get them back to Earth, they are going to be a negative element in your population.

Would that be the Pilgrims by any chance?
Plymouth Colony was much more hospitable than Mars. It was a hard life on either side of the Atlantic, it was just that they were unprepared for the New England weather!

RobertDyck · 2016-11-17 16:26:40

My ancestors on my mother's side came to Canada before Confederation. That means before Canada was a country, when it was just colonies. If you count immigrants as "not Canadian" and the first generation born here is first generation, then I'm 5th generation. One great-great-great-great-uncle (4 or 5 "greats"?) had a homestead in Ontario, the same land on which today stands city hall for the city of Barrie. Of course they were very prolific, he had a lot of children, each of which had a lot of children, etc. A lot of people today can claim ancestry to him. My great great grandfather was a widower with 8 children who married a widow with 8 children, then they had one more baby. That's 17 children! I hope the eldest moved out before the youngest were born.

Ancestors on my father's side arrived more recently. My great grandfather arrived at age 10 in 1881. They built the town of Blumenhof, Saskatchewan. That's about 102km (63.4 miles) north of the border with Montana. Latitude of that farm is almost exactly the same as the the house I live in now in Winnipeg. New England weather? Pffft!

SpaceNut · 2016-11-17 20:21:10

Thanks for the link louis as I was not able to see the first episode as I do not run the remote in the house.....so I will need to view it via computer instead....

more links on the topic from space.com National Geographic 'MARS' Offers History of Future 1st Landing on Red Planet

louis · 2016-11-18 05:01:05

No - not originals, 19th century somewhere! I think some stayed and settled in Texas, not exactly like the Wales of their homeland.

Fortunately we go to Mars infinitely better prepared that the original New England settlers - we understand the weather patterns and the distribution of resources.

Tom Kalbfus wrote:

louis wrote:
Was that the right link Robert? Anyway - here's the one I have to take you straight to the trailers:
http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/m … trailer-1/
Sounds like the usual Hollywood hokum! Annoying I know, but it has some basis at least in reality and so may help spread interest in the Mars mission.
I agree with you entirely that everything points to a small crew getting a rudimentary base established before you start flying 100s in and that doesn't require an MCT.
As soon as you think about the detail as well, you see that flying in 100 "settlers" drawn from all over the world, with varying skill levels, different personalities, a range of cultural biases and opinions is going to create a whole host of managerial issues and problems, that a more traditional "space agency command" structure avoids.
Some of my forebears were amongst those unsung migrants who went to the USA and then decided they preferred it back in the UK ! That's the first thing you have to think about: how many of the 100 are going to be homesick, or just realise that Mars is not for them...? If you can't immediately get them back to Earth, they are going to be a negative element in your population.
Would that be the Pilgrims by any chance?
Plymouth Colony was much more hospitable than Mars. It was a hard life on either side of the Atlantic, it was just that they were unprepared for the New England weather!

GW Johnson · 2016-11-18 10:49:03

Y'all will have to tell me if the program is worthwhile. Out here on the farm, we do not have cable or satellite. All we have is an ordinary rooftop antenna. Fewer channels (just the open broadcast ones), but everything is HD. One-time cost for an antenna every several years.

GW

SpaceNut · 2016-11-18 18:09:40

Ya the new digital does do that as we can only get 3 when the old analog vhf and uhf bands would yield with a signal amp and direction rotor control well over a dozen and all for free back then. Cable is roughly $100 for the 100 plus channels but you can only watch one at a time unless you have more than 1 set attached to the digital scrambled decoder which costs you another $5 a month for as long as you want.....
My cable company is on the list but I need to make the online account in order to access the programing which I do not have yet.

www.collectspace.com/news/news-111416a-mars-natgeo-documentary.html

RobertDyck commented in the first post about this image....

It is quite large for just beginning to be able to land just a little over a ton currently until the Red Dragon gives its attempt.

RobertDyck · 2016-11-27 00:25:09

For GW Johnson: Plot summary of last week's episode. Lots of talk. Mostly the the crew of the fictional mission managed to drive a rover from the Mars lander to base with pre-landed modules. The injured crew member got worse. They had remotely piloted a pressurized rover from base to the ship, then overloaded it with personnel and equipment. Suspension broke part way back, they had to walk the rest of the way. The injured crew member had to be carried on a stretcher. They got to base, lived in the workshop module. The injured crew member was bleeding internally. The medical doctor operated, but while they slept he died. Very Hollywood scene of spirit of the deceased crew member walking out onto the surface of Mars, somehow magically gaining a spacesuit when he walked through the airlock, then meeting the spirit of his dead father on Mars. His father didn't have a spacesuit, but these were "spirits" anyway. The body of the deceased crew member was actually still in the workshop module. He died while everyone else was asleep.

louis · 2016-11-27 08:40:18

Good to know they have pre-landed modules involved!

In over 50 years of space flight and lunar missions I don't think anyone has ever been injured in that way. I think for Mission 1 health and safety will be a major concern, and the actions of the crew/colonists will be governed by extremely detailed daily activity schedules that minimise risks.

RobertDyck wrote:

For GW Johnson: Plot summary of last week's episode. Lots of talk. Mostly the the crew of the fictional mission managed to drive a rover from the Mars lander to base with pre-landed modules. The injured crew member got worse. They had remotely piloted a pressurized rover from base to the ship, then overloaded it with personnel and equipment. Suspension broke part way back, they had to walk the rest of the way. The injured crew member had to be carried on a stretcher. They got to base, lived in the workshop module. The injured crew member was bleeding internally. The medical doctor operated, but while they slept he died. Very Hollywood scene of spirit of the deceased crew member walking out onto the surface of Mars, somehow magically gaining a spacesuit when he walked through the airlock, then meeting the spirit of his dead father on Mars. His father didn't have a spacesuit, but these were "spirits" anyway. The body of the deceased crew member was actually still in the workshop module. He died while everyone else was asleep.

SpaceNut · 2016-11-27 19:44:42

Thanks for the run down from the first episode RobertDyck its greatly appreciated.
Your right louis it is "Good to know they have pre-landed modules involved! " as we have suggested that for quite some time knowing that we are limited in what can be brought all at one time with the current landing tonnage available...based on the 2 mT Red Dragon miision that is TBD in the future for Nasa and Space X....Which we be a win win for both it it lands and communicate back success....

SpaceNut · 2016-11-28 20:55:21

It looks like the ship in posted image of # 8 appears to be 85 m tall by about 20 m wide looking at the size of the people next to the RV transportation....

“Mars”: How humans may explore the Red Planet

"The series follows the six-person crew of the Daedalus encountering mission mishaps as they become the first humans to set foot on the Martian surface."

Which is the size we talk most about for a crew count.

RobertDyck · 2016-11-29 07:17:32

Monday was another episode. Shall I continue episode summaries?

Crew are grieving for their dead commander. Second in command assumes command. Living in a workshop module designed to support 2 crew members 8 hours per day, but now 5 are living there continuously. So they have to upgrade life support. One crew member scavenges parts from pre-landed equipment to do the upgrades, while another gets pissed-off when he finds parts removed. They will have to find water ice to supply their life support, so launch a fleet of 6 helicopter drones. Discussion of lava tubes and radiation shielding. They had intended to live on the ship for 2 years while looking for a suitable site, but now are afraid the workshop will only support them for a few months. They want to deploy an inflatable habitat in a lava tube, they call it a "dome". They want horizontal access for vehicles, plus "topography". I imagine that means sufficient height, level floor, etc. They also want ice. I don't see why you would expect to find ice in a lava tube, molten lava sound contradictory, but that's what they're doing.

Meanwhile politicians are finger-pointing, debating cutting funding. There was discussion of using a second "Vega" as a life raft or rescue ship. Not clear what this second thing is, another Mars Colonial Transport? But there is discussion that using it to rescue the first mission would cause politicians and investors to cancel all funding immediately. Crew on Mars discuss deploying the dome on the surface, but they don't want to do that either because they wouldn't have established a Mars base. Again, failure = loss of funding.

An engineer warns the commander they're overloading an electrical panel, but the commander claims "they have no option". Then a fire breaks out, right at that electrical panel. Hollywood plot device called "foreshadowing": warn the audience it could happen, then make it happen. Crew get in their suits and in the airlock, then the commander breaks a window to decompress the module. Loss of air puts the fire out. Review of missions to Mars in the 1990s, so many failures. They call Mars the "death planet". The conduct repairs, but the module is now leaking "like a sieve", and damage to equipment from fire and decompression. Remote control systems for the drones are no longer functional. Then someone in mission control reviews data already sent, finds a suitable lava tube. Of course, everything has to be dramatic and last second.

They found a tube with "skylight" and tube with horizontal access that didn't appear connected, but debris could be cleared to connect them. An astronaut in a spacesuit descended down via cable, using a winch from the rover. Of course the floor was the absolute limit of the cable. Then the astronaut almost fell over a cliff. She dropped onto debris beneath the skylight, the cliff descended further to the tube floor. And there was ice on the tube floor. Deployed the dome in the lava tube. Looked like they deployed it on the debris pile beneath the skylight. Everything Ok.

Um, if they had life support for the dome, sized for all 6 crew, why couldn't they have used that for the workshop? Oh well. Need Hollywood drama.

elderflower · 2016-11-29 12:57:07

Well there was a report of caves in the Vosges mountains (Eastern France) having fossil ice from the last glaciation in their depths. If I remember it rightly. There might be similar in lava tubes on Mars.

Oldfart1939 · 2016-12-04 12:48:13

This series seems to be somewhat overdramatic and under realistic. Too many "anomalies" to account for that are highly improbable. I was initially very excited about the series, since it was to be directed by Ron Howard. I'm not that keen on watching any longer. Yawn.

SpaceNut · 2016-12-04 19:23:37

I am not able to watch so the round up of each episode is quite welcomed as for over dramatic so are most movie plots as that is the only way to get people into the seats....to much realism an there are no seats filled....

RobertDyck · 2016-12-04 19:35:40

I guess you're right. The public watched with rapt attention from Sputnik to Apollo 11. But once that was achieved, they lost interest. Almost no one watch Apollo 12. I did, but rating dramatically dropped. So much interest was lost that the media barely covered Apollo 13 at all. Then the accident happened, and they got interested again. Since then a certain number people watch merely to see if there's another catastrophic failure.

Rxke · 2016-12-05 01:20:09

Oldfart1939 wrote:

This series seems to be somewhat overdramatic and under realistic. Too many "anomalies" to account for that are highly improbable.

It makes me uneasy watching it, like none of them trained for the mission or have common sense etc. Acting and dialogue seem too scripted, not lifelike.

for me this is run off the mill Hollywood tripe, sorry.

RobertDyck · 2016-12-05 22:24:11

Another week, another episode. A second crew arrives, and a third ship with a third crew. The third crew has difficulty adapting to gravity after 7 months in zero-G. Mission control on Earth show design for the "new" freighter spacecraft, looks like MCT. So the one the first crew arrived in was supposed to be a miniature version of MCT. Still look way too big for 6 crew. They build the base quickly, trying to stay on a rather ambitious schedule. Use a mixture of solar and nuclear power. They build in a lava tube, so long power lines from solar arrays on the surface. Copper power lines result in significant power loss. And since they built in a lava tube, greenhouses depend 100% on artificial light. The base is highly power limited, expansion depends on power. Discussion of replacing those power lines with carbon nano-fibre composite to improve efficiency. I've posted about carbon nano-fibre; seriously proposed it for long distance power lines on Earth. But they think of it at this stage of construction? Moving sand dunes cause damage to power lines, the composite power lines are supposed to be armoured against this. The base commander did not want to replace power lines until after dust storm season, but the two workers who are supposed to replace power lines say they have a mandate from corporate. They claim during swap-out it'll only take a small portion of backup power.

One crew member working on a power transformer on the surface thinks of his dog on Earth, loses concentration, has an accident. They don't show the accident, but someone has ruptured the sleeve of his pressure suit. The worker with him rushes him back to base in the nick of time. The medical doctor said just 10 more seconds and she wouldn't have been able to save the arm. Very Hollywood, just seconds from disaster. But the whole procedure to swap out power lines and upgrade power takes weeks. As the injured worker is still seeing the doctor, a massive dust storm arrives. Complete with approaching wall of dust miles high. One astronaut says they have run multiple simulations of this on Earth. The commander responds "but this is not Earth". Fade to credits.

They inter-cut this with comparison to Antarctica. Said if you lose focus on the terrain, you can be hurt very badly. And the frontier does not forgive mistakes. Neil deGrasse Tyson talked about a science focus, and the base could depend entirely on a long supply chain from Earth. Robert Zubrin talked about moving beyond science, making it a place to live. Another scientists claimed humans are the reproductive organs of the Earth, and the Earth is about to bud.

GW Johnson · 2016-12-06 12:30:46

As I understand it, the best metallic conductors of electricity are (in order of decreasing conductivity, same thing as increasing resistivity): gold, silver, copper, and aluminum. Iron conducts, but poorly, yet better by far than any of the semiconductors.

I'm not familiar with the properties of carbon nanotubes, but I do know that all other forms of carbon (diamond, graphite, amporphous) are at best semiconductors.

The only thing I ever heard of that had better conductivity than the metals listed above would be the superconductors (pretty much a lot of different materials), which have zero resistance primarily because of the cold. Much colder than Mars, generally.

So, why on Earth (or Mars) should I believe carbon nanotubes would be a better conductor than plain copper wire?

GW

Last edited by GW Johnson (2016-12-06 12:31:50)

RobertDyck · 2016-12-06 18:02:07

Actually, the show screwed it up. They had an individual arrive on the 3rd ship, and the base commander complemented him on his work on cold temperature superconductors. Implication was that these new power cables would be superconductors. But that's not how carbon nanotubes work.

Research into carbon nanotubes (in real life) found if the carbon atoms are arranged helically around the fibre, it's a semiconductor. If the atoms are arranged in a straight line along the length of the fibre, it's a conductor. And the conductor has less resistance than copper. And can carry 1,000 times as many amps than copper for a cable of the same diameter. Electrical resistance is not 1/1,000 times, but it is a bit lower. This is at room temperature, or more importantly out door temperature. The fact it can carry so much current allows the cable to be thinner. That reduces cost of the cable. But lower electrical resistance will reduce power loss. It isn't a superconductor, and it isn't orders of magnitude lower, not even one order of magnitude, but it is lower.

In Canada, one complaint from people in Ontario is that power generated in northern Manitoba would be lost by power transmission lines before it reaches Toronto. My contention is that power loss using carbon nanotubes would be less than power loss currently from James Bay in Quebec to Toronto. Current power lines are aluminum, which has more resistance than copper, but aluminum is cheaper than copper. Since the power utility in Ontario is willing to buy power from Quebec, why not buy power from Manitoba? Quebec is the neighbouring province east of Ontario, Manitoba is the neighbouring province west of Ontario.

I believe the reason the producer/writer/director did this in the show was to have someone messing with the power system when a Mars global dust storm arrived. It manufactures another disaster. The base commander said no because she feared this would happen, then it did. Foreshadowing. It creates conflict between the base commander and the crew who did this, and the corporate executive on Earth who authorized it. Conflict, another Hollywood staple. And if Mars is just like Earth, the show is boring. When a global dust storm arrives complete with multi-mile-high wall of dust, that's dramatic! Oooh! Cliff hanger! Can the crew survive the dust storm?!?!?

Last edited by RobertDyck (2016-12-07 01:26:20)

SpaceNut · 2016-12-06 19:16:28

Hopefull this show will be on dvd soon so that I can watch it someday....

Oldfart1939 · 2016-12-07 20:15:48

The show is pretty disappointing to me--both as a story and scientifically. There's just enough scientific accuracy to lend some credibility, but I expected better from National Geographic. Given the horrendous amount of money this expedition would be costing, transmission of power in a DC form through copper wire is almost laughable. There should be an inverter at the nuclear reactor and then us silver wire to reduce the resistance losses. The logic involved regarding the "decisions" is laughable. The "on site" mission commander should be just that--the commander, and not some investor bureaucrat on Earth. There will ultimately need to be a defined chain of command, and not some touchy-feely remote control by the funding organization.

Oldfart1939 · 2016-12-13 14:09:47

The current episode is now available through YouTube. We've now completed 5 of the 6 scheduled segments. An OK effort, but could have had better impact with fewer Hollywood dramatic touches. More Documentary and less Drama to the DocuDrama.

RobertDyck · 2016-12-13 14:55:12

Since Oldfar1939 informed us episodes are available online, here they are.

Episode 1 (with Arabic subtitles, but original English audio)

Episode 2

Episode 3

Episode 4

Episode 5

Last edited by RobertDyck (2016-12-13 20:14:51)

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Nat Geo Mars

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