New Mars Forums

Void

Member

Registered: 2011-12-29

Posts: 7,819

Organic chemestry as a method to master the spectrum of the sun?

I am posting here because I want to;
1) List the models of Earth, Mars, Titan of the past as speculated on by information available on the web.
2) Notice some interesting possibilities of what more might happen on Mars, if Methane is used as a terraforming tool.
3) Work on some possible solutions for life support on Mars.

Can't do that in other sections, and if I am careful, maybe I can keep it all as acceptable to this section.

Prelude: When I was on Red Colony a long time ago, being harassed , I did get help from a member.  I was working on my ice covered reservoirs back then (That's not the topic here), and that member satisfied a query by indicating that organic matter could shield the waters below the ice from U.V., provided that that organic matter was available to serve as a sacrifice, absorbing the U.V. perhaps like sunscreen.

Support for the idea: It seems that processes on Titan may represent what I was looking for.
http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/20 … locks.html
Quote:

New research indicates what organic molecules might be found on Titan, the moon of Saturn that scientists think is a model for the chemistry of pre-life Earth. The first experimental evidence showing how atmospheric nitrogen can be incorporated into organic macromolecules is being reported by a University of Arizona team.

Some speculation has it that a few billion years ago, the Martian atmosphere collapsed, and left fossil ice in the Mariner Rift Valley.  I suspect that if that is so, it also left a thick deposit also in northern plains.

(Tip of the hat to C.S.)  Can't find the reference I wanted or remember why I wanted it.
Oh well....

Continuing...

Titan is said to have some similarities to speculative notions about the early Earth.
However the early Earth is presumed to have mobile CO2 and H20 in it's atmosphere.
Probably no Ozone in the early Earth's atmosphere, and no significant Ozone in the atmosphere of Titan now.

On Titan now, it appears that U.V. interacting primarily with CH4 and N2, manufactures Tholen's.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tholin

I will take a short cut here.  Did early Earth have Tholin's?  If so, did the process of N2, CH4, and of course H20 (For Earth), lead to a U.V. absorbing process, that through inorganic photo-chemistry manufactured organic solids?  Tholen's, or something else?

So, then did the early Earth have a abiotic sunscreen, in the air and the upper layers of it's oceans and a process that manufactured organic solids that rained down on the surface to be washed into the oceans?  Possibly satisfying some of the needs of existing organisms?

If so, then what about Mars in those early days?

I am going to take a shortcut again for this.  Speculation suggests that most of Mars atmosphere and water vented to the universe.  But we see that Nitrogen could be incorporated into Tholin's.  Perhaps we might hope to speculate on deposits of the residue of that era under deep deposits of ice, rather than as Nitrates.

Creepy site! Sometimes when I add, it all disappears!

Again:  Some speculation has it that the Mariner Rift Valley is deeply filled with fossil ice.  If so, then I speculate that also the Northern Plains are.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar … 5X13004145

That is of course speculation.  So, is the notion that Mars had a Nitrogen/Methane atmosphere with liquid water and presumably water vapor in it's early time. (Before the atmosphere collapsed, and left fossil ice [Speculative]).

And then somewhere after that comes a period where the water is all like battery acid, and a period where an Oxygen atmosphere exists (From Photolysis [Speculative]).

And we are told that the heavy water content of the existing water active on the surface of Mars indicates a loss of most of the original water.  But if there is "Fossil" ice, I think a possibility exists to dispute that data.  That data would signify the water that has been active before and after the "Atmospheric Collapse", but would not describe entombed fossil ice.  If there is such a thing as "Fossil Ice", then that measurement does not signify the totality of water on Mars, but rather what has happened to the active water of Mars in perhaps the last 3.5 billion years.

I will attempt to enlist some support for the idea with this:
https://science.nasa.gov/science-news/s … marswater/
(Suspected "Hidden/Buried" reservoir of water on Mars)

If it exists could we hope to find at it's bottom, entombed, organic matter, containing Nitrogen?

So, if lucky, we might find out that Mars had a "Organic" childhood, where N2 was incorporated into Tholin like solids, which washed into it's oceans, and were isolated.  The Methane eventually ran out, and the atmosphere collapsed, and the basins full of water froze, froze down to their roots.

The remaining circulating chemistry, became Oxidative, even with an Oxygen atmosphere, and then finally, what we have now.  I know it is optimistic for Nitrogen on Mars, but I am arguing a case.  I am not guaranteeing that it is true.

I will try to keep this short (I want to go to bed).
What about terraforming Mars with Methane.  Some speculation has it that enormous Methane deposits will be found on Mars.  I would not be surprised.  If so, then release enough of it, and you might get something like Tholin's, and some kind of protection for the surface from U.V.  That would please the Lichen I would think.

And life support on Mars:
RobertDyke suggests an apparently supreme form of "Plastic" which can endure incredible temperature changes, and can survive U.V. although it does not block U.V.

Good enough.  I will hope to use that and suggest a layered method, where an upper balloon (Flat, think a water bed), holds down a lower balloon.  Both filled with water, the upper one having sacrifice organic particulates in it, to absorb U.V. and utilize it to perform photolysis/synthesis of organics without life, and the lower one to foster life for the support of human objectives.
The upper balloon will require a pump to maintain turbidity so that the organic particulates will absorb the U.V. to protect the lower balloon environment.

I am tired.  Goodnight.

Not quite.  Where Robert has an incredibly enduring candidate, I will offer that if the two layered balloons are filled with water, they are spared of the temperature extremes to some extent.

Ya, good enough!  Maybe more later or Ptttt.......

Zzzzz.............

Last edited by Void (2016-11-05 10:31:49)

---

End

Void

Member

Registered: 2011-12-29

Posts: 7,819

Re: Organic chemestry as a method to master the spectrum of the sun?

I believe that the greenhouse materials that Robert has suggested might be PTFE.
Assist me on that if you wish.

The point is, I have been trying to harness Photolysis for a long time, especially hoping to turn the death dealing U.V. into a life giver.  It seems Robert, and the person on Red colony had two of the elements which might make it possible/practical.

I try to attribute my sources to other members when I can.
JoshNH4H in a current thread indicated that a globe is a pressure vessel preferred over a cube.

So, previously I mentioned a horizontal scheme, where two balloons of PTFE would be used to hold reservoirs of water.
I will specify here that like a layer cake, one would be above the other.  The upper one would focus on abiotic chemical reactions to the Mars spectrum, and would also shelter the lower one from U.V. light.  The lower one I hope would be suitable to foster living reactions such as:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirulina … upplement)
or even some more complex fresh water pond weeds, or other sea water larger algae.

Where I still hold to the above, I also support the notion of a balloon within a balloon, on a tower of compressed earth blocks (Anitus), in a global containment of water.  The outer balloon to have the abiotic function absorbing the U.V. and the inner containment to hopefully allow for productive biological functions.

The inclusion of Heliostats into the scheme is not prohibited.  It is rather obvious how to do that with a double globe water containment on a tower, it is a bit more complicated for a horizontal double layer "Pool".  What you would need for the double layered pool would be masts with movable reflectors around the "Pool", heliostats would focus on them and then they would direct the light downward.

So, the PTFE filled with liquid water would be challenged by an intensified light flux including U.V., but if kept reasonably gas bubble free, I think that the liquid fill would help the PTFE endure that thermal challenge.

And if the "Sunscreen" of dead organic particles in a suspension by maintained turbidity of the water of the outer balloon worked, then in spite of the attenuation of light by the process, the interior balloon might obtain a useful flux of biologically friendly light spectrum.

It's a water heater.  It's an abiotic U.V. reactor.  It is also a greenhouse.

Yes it is possible that if done right the inner containment could be filled with air rather than water.

I think that's enough.

So, there!

Last edited by Void (2016-11-05 11:00:36)

---

End

RobertDyck

Moderator

From: Winnipeg, Canada

Registered: 2002-08-20

Posts: 7,933

Website

Re: Organic chemestry as a method to master the spectrum of the sun?

I believe that the greenhouse materials that Robert has suggested might be PTFE.
Assist me on that if you wish.

Not quite. PTFE = PolyTretraFluoroEthylene. It's a polymer, the monomer is [C2F4]n.
PCTFE = PolyChloroTriFluoroEthylene. Also a polymer, the monomer has one fluorine atom replaced with chlorine: [C2ClF3]n.

PTFE is sold by Dupont under the brand name Teflon. A company called Gore Textiles produces a fibres of this, sold as Goretex.

PCTFE is sold by Honeywell under brand names Aclar or Clarus. Both made in the same factory, but Aclar is standardized size and thickness, sold to pharmaceutical industry for blister packs for pills. A thin layer of PCTFE is added to a cheaper polymer for strength. PCTFE is the most impermeable to water, making it thin reduces cost. Clarus is targeted to military and aerospace industries; it can be customized. A Japanese company called Daikin sells it under the name Neoflon, but they use that name for all fluoropolymers so you have to order Neoflon PCTFE. An American company called 3M used to make it under the brand name Kel-F, but they stopped making it in 1995.

Last edited by RobertDyck (2016-11-05 12:23:30)

Void

Member

Registered: 2011-12-29

Posts: 7,819

Re: Organic chemestry as a method to master the spectrum of the sun?

RobertDyke,

PCTFE

Very good.  Thanks for the help.

---

End