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#26 2016-10-30 09:02:46

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,011

Re: Power Distribution by pipelines on Mars.

Spacenut, thanks.

I will agree, that I biggest wish could be that we have a supply of Methane, and could economically extract Oxygen from the atmosphere of Mars, to burn it in.


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#27 2016-10-30 14:33:47

Antius
Member
From: Cumbria, UK
Registered: 2007-05-22
Posts: 1,003

Re: Power Distribution by pipelines on Mars.

Looking at the phase diagram for CO2 it should be possible to separate the gas by density at low temperature in a centrifuge.

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi … iagram.svg

The power output of a fuel cell membrane should be a function of the partial pressure of oxygen.  With all CO2 removed, oxygen would 3.4% of what remains.  The gas would need to be pressurised to 6x the pressure needed using ordinary air.

The other means of burning the mixture would be using a gas turbine or some sort of boiler.  The heat capacity of the nitrogen and argon would tend to constrain the combustion temperature in the turbine.  This would limit efficiency, but low flame temperature also eases the material difficulties in blade construction.  I will work out flame temperature tomorrow.  If flame temperature is too low to sustain combustion, the solution could be found in some form of preheat cycle.  Alternatively, the methane-atmosphere mix could be passed through a catalyst bed and the heat used to boil a secondary fluid such as water or CO2.

Last edited by Antius (2016-10-30 14:52:35)

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#28 2016-10-30 20:47:30

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,144

Re: Power Distribution by pipelines on Mars.

Key Documents & Mars Foundation™ Publications cN BW FOUND HERE:
http://marshome.org/documents.php

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#29 2016-10-31 09:30:18

Antius
Member
From: Cumbria, UK
Registered: 2007-05-22
Posts: 1,003

Re: Power Distribution by pipelines on Mars.

Looks like burning methane in Martian air won’t be easy.  The auto-ignition temperature of a stoichiometric methane-air mixture is 580°C.  I have calculated the temperature rise of methane burning in Martian air (scrubbed of CO2 and including CO combustion) to be ~480K.  That means that the mix would need to be pre-heated to 100°C in order to sustain a flame.  Any residual CO2 in the mix would worsen the situation.  Even with pre-heating (i.e. using exhaust gas heat to pre-heat incoming air), the flame is not likely to be stable, so this would probably not work in a gas turbine unless we added additional oxygen to it.

When CO2 is removed, the composition of the residual gases in the Martian atmosphere by mass is 51.78%N2, 43.836%Ar, 2.849%O2, 1.534%CO and traces of other compounds.  Basically, there is too little O2 in this mix to sustain flame combustion, given the heat capacity of the other gases.

The other option is to pass the methane-air mix through a pre-heated catalytic particle bed.  Titanium or chromium oxide may be the best choice, as it is abundance on Mars.
http://fluid.wme.pwr.wroc.pl/~spalanie/ … ION%20.PDF

Waste gases from the catalyst bed can then be passed into a boiler and used to boil CO2 in a closed liquid-vapour cycle.

Such a device would be bulky; basically a static power station providing power to a large base and an efficiency of 40% is probably ambitious.

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#30 2016-10-31 10:46:50

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,011

Re: Power Distribution by pipelines on Mars.

Hi Antius and Spacenut.

I have read your material to the level that I can absorb, which frankly makes me glad you guys are here to perhaps make me see better.  I am only partially equipped mentally for this discussion, but I will continue, because I think that there is some hope.

I will propose a compromise based on this document:
http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy13osti/51995.pdf

Blending Hydrogen into Natural Gas Pipeline Networks: A Review of Key Issues

Frankly I was surprised, that Methane could be "Burned" in Martian air at all.
I see that you indicate that a complicated process is required with preheating in one case.  I suggest that if the mix is perhaps 20% (Trial Balloon) H2, and otherwise a mix similar to natural gas, that is mostly Methane, it may have enough energy to burn directly, or at least better?

My own logic tells me that the leakage rate can be much lower, since most of the H2 will be held between Methane molecules, and so the pipe walls will leak less.

Quote from the PDF:

Leakage Hydrogen is more mobile than methane in many polymer materials, including the plastic pipes and elastomeric seals used in natural gas distribution systems. The permeation coefficient of hydrogen is higher through most elastomeric sealing materials than through plastic pipe materials. However, pipes have much larger surface areas than seals, so leaks through plastic pipe walls would account for the majority of gas losses (Appendix A). Permeation rates for hydrogen are about 4 to 5 times faster than for methane in typical polymer pipes used in the U.S. natural gas distribution system. Leakage in steel and ductile iron systems mainly occurs through threads or mechanical joints. Leakage measurements from GTI for steel and ductile iron gas distribution systems (including seals and joints) suggest that the volume leakage rate for hydrogen is about a factor of 3 higher than that for natural gas (Appendix A).  A calculation based on literature data for the permeation coefficient of hydrogen and methane in polyethylene (PE) pipes suggests that most gas loss would occur through the pipe wall, rather than through joints, in distribution mains smaller than 2 in. and operating at 60 psig (5 bar) or higher. Extending this calculation to the larger pipeline network suggests that use of a 20% hydrogen blend within the approximately 415,000 miles of PE pipes in the United States would result in a gas loss of about 43 million ft3/yr, with about 60% of the losses being hydrogen and 40% being natural gas (Appendix A). Though this estimate of gas loss is almost twice the total gas loss for systems delivering natural gas only, it is still considered economically insignificant. As reference, this theoretical distribution main leakage rate (43 million ft3/yr) would be 0.0002% of the 24.13 trillion cubic feet of natural gas consumed in 2010 (EIA 2011). Furthermore, this calculation likely overestimates actual gas loss because the permeation coefficient taken from the literature is considered larger than those observed in experiments using pipe under actual operating pressures, especially at lower pressures. In general, hydrogen blends would slightly reduce natural gas leakage due to the higher mobility of hydrogen molecules, resulting in a net reduction in the greenhouse gas impact due to leakage. A calculation for the Dutch pipeline system, based upon experimentally derived permeation coefficients, predicts a gas leakage rate of 0.00005% with a 17% hydrogen blend (Haines at al. 2003). Further investigation and additional empirical data would be necessary to provide more accurate gas loss estimates associated with hydrogen blends.

I am first suggesting a plastic pipe system, although this article indicates greater loss rates.  I originally intended that it would be covered with regolith, but now I wonder if it could be wrapped in a mineral wool cloth.

I could certainly be deeply wrong, but I am somehow hoping that humans could derive piping that is good enough, from sand dune material as it reportedly contains Iron, Titanium, and Chromium.  A new process may need inventing, for that however.

And for you Mr. Spacenut with no malice felt or intended, I repeat this sub phrase:
quote:

Though this estimate of gas loss is almost twice the total gas loss for systems delivering natural gas only, it is still considered economically insignificant.

While, I will still thank you spacenut for pointing out a problem with my assertions/speculations.

There is a whole lot more materials I could attach to this post, but that is likely to be counterproductive to the purpose.  Perhaps we should analyze my most resent assertions/proposals/speculations, and see what mid-course corrections are appropriate before I add more materials.

Last edited by Void (2016-10-31 11:06:42)


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#31 2016-10-31 11:34:33

Antius
Member
From: Cumbria, UK
Registered: 2007-05-22
Posts: 1,003

Re: Power Distribution by pipelines on Mars.

Hydrogen has the advantage that it burns at lower temperatures (400C) and adding it to methane would improve ignitability.  But hydrogen is something you would probably need to manufacture through steam reforming, whereas methane may be something you can pipe straight out of the ground.

Even if the concept of burning methane in Martian air proves impracticable, abundant supplies of the gas would still provide a tremendous boost to human habitability.  The gas provides a reducing agent for metal ores and a feedstock for plastics manufacture.  It would therefore speed up colonisation of the planet dramatically.

According to this article, huge quantities of methane may be trapped as hydrates in permafrost deposits deep underground:
http://www.pet.hw.ac.uk/icgh7/papers/ic … l00638.pdf

With so little geological activity and deep cryosphere, methane may have been accumulating for most of planet's history.

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#32 2016-10-31 12:15:22

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,011

Re: Power Distribution by pipelines on Mars.

I agree that Methane is something to look for, for the reasons you list.

A mix, of Hydrogen and Methane, in a pipeline system could keep a civilization in energy though if involved in an epic world wide dust storm, of if somehow, a factor of some other kind, had disrupted the extraction of Methane/Hydrogen.  The supplies could possibly last for months.

I hope Hydrogen would be reformed from Methane or CO+H20, by solar heat, when convenient.

I would prefer to extract Oxygen from the Martian atmosphere.  Many plans for splitting CO2 are proposed.

Here is one per Dook. Yes credit to Dook for it.
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=7495

I have proposed a system as well.  Simply making an enriched mixture, where CO2 and N2 keep it from reaching LEL or LFL.  Lower Explosive Limit/Lower Flammable Limit.  (Using a rather simple Photolysis method).

You have proposed cryogenics as a separations method, which seems worth the effort to explore.

If it were O2 and CO2 and N2 dissolved in water, the extraction method would be simple, we would impose a vacuum and degas the water.

CO2 is different however as it will not be a liquid until 5.1 bar?

So, you proposed a centrifuge.  However we have two possible cryogenic situations for that.  All components cold enough to be liquid/solid, or just the CO2 as liquid, and the other gasses as dissolved gasses in a liquid CO2 bath.

Which is on your mind?

A side note.... If there are Methane deposits, and they are utilized, it is guaranteed that there will be spillage and leakage.  If, so, for Mars warming by Methane greenhouse effect could be a side effect of habitation, and utilization of these methods for survival, rather than some hideous burden.  smile

Lets think positive until required to do elsewise.

Last edited by Void (2016-10-31 12:44:35)


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#33 2016-10-31 20:57:14

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,144

Re: Power Distribution by pipelines on Mars.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_Mars
Trace amounts of methane already are being monitored on Mars by the rovers and Maven.
http://www.newsmax.com/US/nasa-mars-met … id/729762/

https://www.inverse.com/article/21492-s … ction-mars

Musk’s presentation neglected to go into detail as to how exactly an ITS propellent-producing facility would work. And bear in mind — Musk thinks 50 to 60 percent of whatever electricity the solar panels are able to generate will go toward propellant production. That’s an insane amount of energy that cannot go toward other things that make day-to-day life in Mars safe and bearable.

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#34 2016-11-01 07:23:46

Antius
Member
From: Cumbria, UK
Registered: 2007-05-22
Posts: 1,003

Re: Power Distribution by pipelines on Mars.

Going back to the subject of pipeline transport, a good power source for outside work on Mars would be compressed CO2.  On Earth, compressed air tools are much lighter, more powerful and easier to make, but have the downside of generally poorer energy efficiency.  If CO2 from Martian air can be gathered and liquefied at night and boiled using solar or nuclear waste heat during the day, it could be delivered by pipeline at pressures of 5-10 bar and used to power air tools.

Since the engine we have been discussing must compress or liquefy CO2 to remove it from the combustion stream, maybe its best use would be to provide a supply of liquid or compressed CO2 for air tools.  CO2 powered tools could presumably be used indoors provided there was a return line back into the Martian atmosphere.

Liquid CO2 could presumably be stored in huge quantities in steel or pre-stressed concrete pressure vessels or possibly even underground cavities and boiled off as required.  According to my back of the envelope calcs, 1m3 of liquid CO2 should release about 800MJ of energy as it turns from liquid to gas.  If this could be converted to work at 25% efficiency, then 1m3 CO2 would yield 200MJ or 55kWh of work.

Last edited by Antius (2016-11-01 07:34:28)

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#35 2016-11-01 10:55:18

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,011

Re: Power Distribution by pipelines on Mars.

Antius,  specifically your post #34 is a very good work.  I support the entire notion.  In the case of fission nuclear energy, then dust storms are not a large threat, except if they have electrical issues that might knock down technological devices.  Mostly that type of threat could be largely reduced by the technological engineering, I would suppose.

For solar energy, the amount available during the day is reduced, and I believe that the nights are warmer.  And if you have a system that is vulnerable to electrical issues, then of course that could be a problem.

Your description includes large scale storage of liquid CO2, so, for solar, a decline in solar radiation is offset by elevated temperatures.  This then suggests means for a civilization to survive a global dust storm, and reduce economic losses.

For nuclear, elevated nighttime temperatures, still allows a production of energy, at a reduced rate, but likely survivable.

Last edited by Void (2016-11-01 11:01:29)


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#36 2016-11-01 11:06:58

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,011

Re: Power Distribution by pipelines on Mars.

I could use some suggestions on a somewhat different method.

Starting with a brine of water liquid and salts, the injection and removal of CO2, at changing fluid temperatures, offers possibilities as well I believe.

I won't beat around the bush.  This idea, suggests that a cold brine will have Martian atmosphere pressed into it.

Then the solution would be heated, solar or nuclear.  The evaporation cycle would be perhaps involve two sub-steps.

The first step I hope would allow a maneuver similar to degassing heated water.  The solution would be heated, until some CO2 would start bubbling out.  I am hoping that that would carry out of the solution some of the N2, O2, and Co, and perhaps Argon.
My intuition says it might, but I have no proof.  However those four gasses have a greater nature to exist as a gas than CO2, so that is what I base my speculation on.

So if that were to prove true, we might call it our gas mining/beneficiation method to get a gas concentrate with reduced CO2 concentration and elevated concentrations of those four gasses and perhaps others.

The concentrate would be handled by further methods to capture the substances desired.  I will not go into that here, or at least not yet.

I am expecting a lot of fizzing when the solution is very much heated.  The CO2 I hope will vaporize, bubbling up.  Droplets of water will need to be captured by baffles.  Possibly such water might even be of a reduced salt content, but I am not sure of that.


The "Tailings" would be the bulk of the materials not bubbled/evaporated, which I would hope would involve water, salts, and the bulk of the CO2.

This bulk fluid of water, salts, and CO2 (Dissolved) would be greatly heated by your hot energy of method of choice, nuclear, or solar.

And of course my intention is to generate electricity by the evaporation of the CO2.  (This should cause the remnant brine to become relatively cool, as the CO2 carries away much of the heat).

The method of electrical generation could be turbine, but I can speculate on others.  (I will leave that aside for now).

The system could be closed to the Martian atmosphere, or integrated into it.

Speculations on attachments possible:

It is my hope that a solution of water, salts, and CO2 can be degassed by somewhat elevating the temperatures of the solution, and removing the gasses which might bubble out.  This is a trick that cannot be done with pure liquid CO2, I think.

The substances we would hope to capture are atmospheric gasses not including CO2.  However some CO2 would be captured in a concentrate.  An attachment which might augment the quantity of O2 and CO is some type of convenient splitting process to split O2 and CO from CO2.  I won't get too specific on this because there will be several options for doing this, and the choice of open of closed system will influence these choices.  I could speculate however on an attempt to include a photolysis process involving Martian sunlight.  In the methods I will further suggest, it's efficiency does not have to be very high to be of a benefit.

Issues:
The salt water brine with dissolved CO2 will be corrosive, which is bound to create problems with the machinery, so that will have to be handled with engineering I would presume.

Mining with this corrosive fluid:
Since it would be a corrosive fluid, perhaps advantage could be taken of that:
And so as I presume the readers were expecting, I will include a reservoir where, brine and CO2 are mixed, and where you could put a mined material, hoping the corrosive process will bring a substance of desire into the solution.

Somewhere in the cycle of the process, the dissolved materials would be removed by a sub-process.  For example perhaps copper, uranium, or lithium.  (I don't know that these would be the items, it is just an example).

I did say the word "Reservoir".  It could be a vat, or an impoundment.

In the case of an impoundment, it is quite possible to have a cold briny fluid into which the CO2 is dissolved in the lower layers, and a fresher layer above that which may have other dissolved gasses above, that and above that of course ice/mechanical cover.

In the lower briny, layer with CO2 added, it is reasonable to expect that H2 and Nitrous Oxide will synthesize as the brine acts on the soil.  Into this water can be introduced, a mined substance bearing copper, uranium, lithium, or perhaps sand dune concentrates/beneficiated content.  So, I would expect a Serpentization process to result, when you introduce such a mineral which has not already been rusted by acid water solutions.  This might future produce Hydrogen, depending on the chemistry stimulated.

In the case of introducing dune concentrates, I expect clay to be another result, for some chemistries.  Maybe not for very acid ones, I am not sure.

And so then off course, I am expecting the possibility of having elevated values of O2, CO, H2, Nitrous Oxide, and hoping to involve these gasses in life support for humans.  A possible item could be chemosynthesis.

Antius, if you are in the mood, please give me appropriate feedback on this post.  (Or anyone else as well).

Last edited by Void (2016-11-01 11:51:38)


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#37 2016-11-02 04:55:22

Antius
Member
From: Cumbria, UK
Registered: 2007-05-22
Posts: 1,003

Re: Power Distribution by pipelines on Mars.

Void wrote:

I could use some suggestions on a somewhat different method.

Starting with a brine of water liquid and salts, the injection and removal of CO2, at changing fluid temperatures, offers possibilities as well I believe.

I won't beat around the bush.  This idea, suggests that a cold brine will have Martian atmosphere pressed into it.

Then the solution would be heated, solar or nuclear.  The evaporation cycle would be perhaps involve two sub-steps.

The first step I hope would allow a maneuver similar to degassing heated water.  The solution would be heated, until some CO2 would start bubbling out.  I am hoping that that would carry out of the solution some of the N2, O2, and Co, and perhaps Argon.
My intuition says it might, but I have no proof.  However those four gasses have a greater nature to exist as a gas than CO2, so that is what I base my speculation on.

So if that were to prove true, we might call it our gas mining/beneficiation method to get a gas concentrate with reduced CO2 concentration and elevated concentrations of those four gasses and perhaps others.

The concentrate would be handled by further methods to capture the substances desired.  I will not go into that here, or at least not yet.

I am expecting a lot of fizzing when the solution is very much heated.  The CO2 I hope will vaporize, bubbling up.  Droplets of water will need to be captured by baffles.  Possibly such water might even be of a reduced salt content, but I am not sure of that.


The "Tailings" would be the bulk of the materials not bubbled/evaporated, which I would hope would involve water, salts, and the bulk of the CO2.

This bulk fluid of water, salts, and CO2 (Dissolved) would be greatly heated by your hot energy of method of choice, nuclear, or solar.

And of course my intention is to generate electricity by the evaporation of the CO2.  (This should cause the remnant brine to become relatively cool, as the CO2 carries away much of the heat).

The method of electrical generation could be turbine, but I can speculate on others.  (I will leave that aside for now).

The system could be closed to the Martian atmosphere, or integrated into it.

Speculations on attachments possible:

It is my hope that a solution of water, salts, and CO2 can be degassed by somewhat elevating the temperatures of the solution, and removing the gasses which might bubble out.  This is a trick that cannot be done with pure liquid CO2, I think.

The substances we would hope to capture are atmospheric gasses not including CO2.  However some CO2 would be captured in a concentrate.  An attachment which might augment the quantity of O2 and CO is some type of convenient splitting process to split O2 and CO from CO2.  I won't get too specific on this because there will be several options for doing this, and the choice of open of closed system will influence these choices.  I could speculate however on an attempt to include a photolysis process involving Martian sunlight.  In the methods I will further suggest, it's efficiency does not have to be very high to be of a benefit.

Issues:
The salt water brine with dissolved CO2 will be corrosive, which is bound to create problems with the machinery, so that will have to be handled with engineering I would presume.

Mining with this corrosive fluid:
Since it would be a corrosive fluid, perhaps advantage could be taken of that:
And so as I presume the readers were expecting, I will include a reservoir where, brine and CO2 are mixed, and where you could put a mined material, hoping the corrosive process will bring a substance of desire into the solution.

Somewhere in the cycle of the process, the dissolved materials would be removed by a sub-process.  For example perhaps copper, uranium, or lithium.  (I don't know that these would be the items, it is just an example).

I did say the word "Reservoir".  It could be a vat, or an impoundment.

In the case of an impoundment, it is quite possible to have a cold briny fluid into which the CO2 is dissolved in the lower layers, and a fresher layer above that which may have other dissolved gasses above, that and above that of course ice/mechanical cover.

In the lower briny, layer with CO2 added, it is reasonable to expect that H2 and Nitrous Oxide will synthesize as the brine acts on the soil.  Into this water can be introduced, a mined substance bearing copper, uranium, lithium, or perhaps sand dune concentrates/beneficiated content.  So, I would expect a Serpentization process to result, when you introduce such a mineral which has not already been rusted by acid water solutions.  This might future produce Hydrogen, depending on the chemistry stimulated.

In the case of introducing dune concentrates, I expect clay to be another result, for some chemistries.  Maybe not for very acid ones, I am not sure.

And so then off course, I am expecting the possibility of having elevated values of O2, CO, H2, Nitrous Oxide, and hoping to involve these gasses in life support for humans.  A possible item could be chemosynthesis.

Antius, if you are in the mood, please give me appropriate feedback on this post.  (Or anyone else as well).

CO2 is much more soluble than any of the other gases, as it forms carbonic acid in water.  In terms of purifying an air stream, one approach would be to spray water mist into the high pressure gas stream and then pump the carbonated water into a lower pressure vessel, where it can degas.  The amount of gas water carries is a function of pressure.  Will give you a more in depth response in due course.

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#38 2016-11-02 12:27:51

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,011

Re: Power Distribution by pipelines on Mars.

Excellent to have more info from you. 

This material I imposed on you, is of questionable value in light of disclosures previously made.
-Possible massive Methane deposit's.
-Liquid CO2 tanks.
-And I presume that if you liquefy the CO2, you can get some N2 with a pinch of O2 and CO.

Point is the questions I posed, are less important in light of the probability of the above listed assets.  Still further enlightenment would be appreciated, if convenient.


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#39 2016-11-21 05:59:00

Antius
Member
From: Cumbria, UK
Registered: 2007-05-22
Posts: 1,003

Re: Power Distribution by pipelines on Mars.

Void wrote:

I could use some suggestions on a somewhat different method.

Starting with a brine of water liquid and salts, the injection and removal of CO2, at changing fluid temperatures, offers possibilities as well I believe.

I won't beat around the bush.  This idea, suggests that a cold brine will have Martian atmosphere pressed into it.

Then the solution would be heated, solar or nuclear.  The evaporation cycle would be perhaps involve two sub-steps.

The first step I hope would allow a maneuver similar to degassing heated water.  The solution would be heated, until some CO2 would start bubbling out.  I am hoping that that would carry out of the solution some of the N2, O2, and Co, and perhaps Argon.
My intuition says it might, but I have no proof.  However those four gasses have a greater nature to exist as a gas than CO2, so that is what I base my speculation on.

So if that were to prove true, we might call it our gas mining/beneficiation method to get a gas concentrate with reduced CO2 concentration and elevated concentrations of those four gasses and perhaps others.

The concentrate would be handled by further methods to capture the substances desired.  I will not go into that here, or at least not yet.

I am expecting a lot of fizzing when the solution is very much heated.  The CO2 I hope will vaporize, bubbling up.  Droplets of water will need to be captured by baffles.  Possibly such water might even be of a reduced salt content, but I am not sure of that.


The "Tailings" would be the bulk of the materials not bubbled/evaporated, which I would hope would involve water, salts, and the bulk of the CO2.

This bulk fluid of water, salts, and CO2 (Dissolved) would be greatly heated by your hot energy of method of choice, nuclear, or solar.

And of course my intention is to generate electricity by the evaporation of the CO2.  (This should cause the remnant brine to become relatively cool, as the CO2 carries away much of the heat).

The method of electrical generation could be turbine, but I can speculate on others.  (I will leave that aside for now).

The system could be closed to the Martian atmosphere, or integrated into it.

Speculations on attachments possible:

It is my hope that a solution of water, salts, and CO2 can be degassed by somewhat elevating the temperatures of the solution, and removing the gasses which might bubble out.  This is a trick that cannot be done with pure liquid CO2, I think.

The substances we would hope to capture are atmospheric gasses not including CO2.  However some CO2 would be captured in a concentrate.  An attachment which might augment the quantity of O2 and CO is some type of convenient splitting process to split O2 and CO from CO2.  I won't get too specific on this because there will be several options for doing this, and the choice of open of closed system will influence these choices.  I could speculate however on an attempt to include a photolysis process involving Martian sunlight.  In the methods I will further suggest, it's efficiency does not have to be very high to be of a benefit.

Issues:
The salt water brine with dissolved CO2 will be corrosive, which is bound to create problems with the machinery, so that will have to be handled with engineering I would presume.

Mining with this corrosive fluid:
Since it would be a corrosive fluid, perhaps advantage could be taken of that:
And so as I presume the readers were expecting, I will include a reservoir where, brine and CO2 are mixed, and where you could put a mined material, hoping the corrosive process will bring a substance of desire into the solution.

Somewhere in the cycle of the process, the dissolved materials would be removed by a sub-process.  For example perhaps copper, uranium, or lithium.  (I don't know that these would be the items, it is just an example).

I did say the word "Reservoir".  It could be a vat, or an impoundment.

In the case of an impoundment, it is quite possible to have a cold briny fluid into which the CO2 is dissolved in the lower layers, and a fresher layer above that which may have other dissolved gasses above, that and above that of course ice/mechanical cover.

In the lower briny, layer with CO2 added, it is reasonable to expect that H2 and Nitrous Oxide will synthesize as the brine acts on the soil.  Into this water can be introduced, a mined substance bearing copper, uranium, lithium, or perhaps sand dune concentrates/beneficiated content.  So, I would expect a Serpentization process to result, when you introduce such a mineral which has not already been rusted by acid water solutions.  This might future produce Hydrogen, depending on the chemistry stimulated.

In the case of introducing dune concentrates, I expect clay to be another result, for some chemistries.  Maybe not for very acid ones, I am not sure.

And so then off course, I am expecting the possibility of having elevated values of O2, CO, H2, Nitrous Oxide, and hoping to involve these gasses in life support for humans.  A possible item could be chemosynthesis.

Antius, if you are in the mood, please give me appropriate feedback on this post.  (Or anyone else as well).

Hello Void, it has taken me a while to get around to responding to your post.  Better late than never.  I think your idea of dissolving CO2 in brine has some merit and has gotten me thinking about other potential energy sources.

When CO2 dissolves in water, the result is carbonic acid.  On the other hand, Martian regolith is highly alkaline and contains perchlorate super oxides.  The neutralisation reaction yields energy, usually in the form of heat.  Perhaps a system can be derived whereby carbonic acid a water soluble alkali agents from the Martian regolith can be combined to yield heat.  My guess is that energy yielded by the neutralisation reaction will be insufficient to make up energy losses from the system, but I may be wrong.  Some kind of low temperature reactor operating at perhaps 0C could provide a hot source for a Rankin cycle using CO2 working fluid.  The cold source would be Martian night time temperatures which are -100C.

Another useful concept, now that we have identified natural gas on Mars, may be a fuel cell.  Basically, dissolve Martian perchlorates in water on one side of a proton exchange membrane.  Steam reform natural gas to yield hydrogen that you inject into the other side.  The hydrogen ions cross the membrane and oxidise the peroxide yielding direct current.  A couple of problems I can see are the low concentration of super oxides, about 0.5% in Martian regolith.  The amount of energy you lose warming up the regolith enough to dissolve the peroxide may exceed the energy that you gain.  Although I suppose that energy could be waste heat from the process.  Another problem is the chlorine that would be yielded.  This is water soluble and may attack the membrane.

Just a few ideas that I throw into the air based upon your concept.  Some systems analysis would be needed to test their actual practicality.

Last edited by Antius (2016-11-21 06:03:58)

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#40 2016-11-21 06:07:18

Antius
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From: Cumbria, UK
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Re: Power Distribution by pipelines on Mars.

As an aside, if we ever do get around to terraforming Mars and heating up its surface enough for liquid water to exist, carbonic acid neutralisation of alkali compounds in the regolith will suck a lot of CO2 out the atmosphere.  This may make the task of thickening the Martian atmosphere more difficult.

On the other hand, Martian soil contains a lot of sulphur which will oxidise in an aqueous environment to form sulphuric acid.  This will tend to attack alkali agents and carbonates, yielding CO2 and additional water.  Not sure which of the two mechanisms would dominate.

With so much sulphur and peroxide in the Martian soil, simply heating Martian regolith may be sufficient to reduce the super oxides.  I wonder if this could generate net energy in some sort of boiler?  Thinking out loud here.

Last edited by Antius (2016-11-21 06:13:52)

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#41 2016-11-21 06:45:52

Antius
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From: Cumbria, UK
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Posts: 1,003

Re: Power Distribution by pipelines on Mars.

Scrap that last idea.  Sulphur on Mars is present as oxides, not elemental sulphur.  It will form sulphuric acid when dissolved in water.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PIA1 … 121203.jpg

Several of the most abundant components in Martian regolith will form alkali hydroxides when dissolved in water.  These will immediately react with the sulphuric acid yielding salts.  I am not sure if there is enough SO3 to neutralise all the alkali agents, but it looks like just wetting Martian regolith will generate a sizable amount of heat.

Last edited by Antius (2016-11-21 06:46:33)

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#42 2016-11-21 12:03:24

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
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Re: Power Distribution by pipelines on Mars.

but it looks like just wetting Martian regolith will generate a sizable amount of heat.

That's good.  Also, I would expect serpentization (Rust), to generate heat also.

Lakes in Antarctica under the ice cap apparently generate Hydrogen gas and Nitrous Oxide, just from brine interacting with the lake bed soil.

My suspicion is that that if you make the lake more acid by adding CO2, it will react, rust the soils more.

So a chemical opportunity to foster life exists if you don't make the water too acid.  By pumping Martian air into such a body of water, you would also add small quantities of CO and O2 which will also help to foster life.

If there were Clathrates of Methane or Nitrogen compounds buried eventually they would appear in a lake where its water is warmer than the subsurface.  Something which should be achievable.

If you added dune materials to the lake, I suspect that they being basalt would "Rust" and also produce heat.  So this is yet another chemical manipulation which may be available.  This should release Hydrogen, and micro-organisms having CO and CO2 available could then produce Methane, and heat, and organic matter.

Though you might get some heat from these chemical reactions, I suggest as well the obvious that electrical power could be used to split CO2 into CO, O2, and Carbon.  So, Oxygen, and two types of food for microbes.  CO and Carbon. 

So, you want a power source.  Solar, Fission, and Fusion are each candidates.

So, you have a chemical soup.  Why not capture the incidental solar energy and inject it into the lake?

Three methods:
1) Simply boil water on the surface in pipes and a boiler, using heliostats to concentrate solar energy, and flash condense the steam into the water of the lake.  This would also provide an opportunity for steam turbine electrical power generation with the waste heat going into the lake.  If you had excess electrical energy at some times, you could use it to split CO2 into the CO, O2, and Carbon to inject into the lake.

2) Solar windows in the lake ice surface.  These could be generated using a "Pillow" of plastic film partially filled with water, probably fresh.
Preferably the plastic would be RobertDyck's favorite, which is enduring and does not block U.V.  It would be my preference that heliostats would be used to direct extra solar energy into these windows.   The waters below would get both friendly light and unfriendly light (U.V.), Both would add heat to the lake.  The U.V. might cause some interesting chemical reactions, but of course would be hostile to life.

So inside the lake, if you wanted to grow plants, you would have to provide some kind of U.V. sunscreen.  I will not go into details on that.
I will mention duck weed again. But other vegetables are not precluded.
http://www.odditycentral.com/news/nemos … -farm.html
Nemo-Garden-project5-600x450.jpg
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=nemo's+garden+italy&qpvt=nemo%27s+garden+italy&qpvt=nemo%27s+garden+italy&qpvt=nemo%27s+garden+italy&FORM=IGRE

I think that on Mars, these types of underwater domes will be easier, because of the lesser gravitational displacement.  However, for the plant duckweed, I seen no need to have the dimensions of the enclosure they are using.  A transparent inverted tray with perhaps 1 inch of air should work.  If you want to be luxurious, then make the airs vertical dimension 6 inches, then humans could poke their head into it to get a breath of air.  (Don't inhale duck weed though!)

3) Of course solar cells with or without heliostat assistance could generate electric power, and that electric power could split CO2 into CO, O2, and Carbon.  The electricity could also simply heat the lake, or run devices which would generate waste heat in a factory.  The waters of the lake could absorb the heat to cool the factory.

***It is my opinion that plenty of solar power to melt the polar ice caps falls on them.  The trick however is not to heat the surface, but to inject the heat below the insulation of the surface ice.

...But why stop at solar energy?

As mentioned elsewhere, salt water could yield Uranium, and Lithium, and the water of Mars has a concentration of Heavy water.

So, Fission and Fusion.

The optimistic vision:
There is some reason to believe that the low lying areas on the Northern Hemisphere of Mars, and the Mariner Rift Valley have a very large reservoir of "Fossil" ice.  So, wouldn't it be great to be able to start in the Mariner Rift Valley melting a lake, and just keep going until virtually all of those areas are one connected ice covered sea?  Starting in the relatively mild conditions of the Mariner Rift Valley, and pushing North in an expansion.  (At the same time, also raising the atmospheric pressure / Greenhouse effect).

And let us not forget the potential frozen sea that RobertDyck champions.

The pessimistic vision: (Not that bad)
If actually there is no such "Fossil" ice, and only the high latitudes have ice reservoirs (Including the polar ice caps), then you could do something similar, but you have to put up with rugged conditions off the bat, and in order to make the lower latitudes more habitable, you would have to push water up from the Northern Sea to the equator, or drop it down gravitationally from the Southern sea/lake chains.

As the atmosphere got thicker, small melts on the surface would also contribute to the water, just as they do for dry valley lakes in Antarctica.

But using the "Pillow" windows over these large bodies of water and heliostats (Most likely composed of pseudo wood, with a reflective coating), vast amount of agriculture where there is no fear of freezing temperatures.

It's such a long post, I might as well......

I realize that duckweed has appeared on this site before, but still...

http://portablefarms.com/2016/is-duckwe … he-future/
quote:

Duckweed MAY be the food of the future. There is no doubt about that. Grown under ideal conditions, duckweed ranges between 25% and 45% protein and doubles its growth every 36 hours, and OUR TILAPIA love to eat it.

http://www.offthegridnews.com/how-to-2/ … -duckweed/
quote:

Duckweed packs crude protein of 35 to 43 percent, fiber of 5 to 15 percent, polyunsaturated fat of 5 percent, and a host of trace minerals, calcium and Vitamins A and B. Its protein content is said to be equal to that of dried soybean meal. Not limited only to ducks, duckweed is fed to swine, chicken, cattle, sheep, goats, rabbits and farmed fish in many developing countries, with very positive results.
Duckweed is probably the smallest but fastest-growing plant there is. Grown in ideal conditions, it can double its weight in just 16-48 hours. Farmers who grow feed crops have found duckweed to be much more productive than soybean in terms of protein per surface area. It can produce 5-8 tons of dry matter for every acre per year, while soybeans produce less than a ton per acre each year depending on species, nutrient supply in the water, climate and environmental conditions.
Common duckweed, or lemna minor, grows in thick blanket-like mats on fresh or brackish still waters such as ponds, lagoons, swamps and slow-moving streams, especially those containing high amounts of nutrients like nitrogen and phosphorous. That’s why it’s often found in wastewater coming from residential areas, crop farms, hog and poultry operations, cattle feedlots, slaughterhouses and food processing plants, where effluent, excess fertilizers and slurry abound.

HUMAN CONSUMPTION
But the best thing about duckweed is that it is also edible for humans. Duckweed resembles in taste to watercress or spinach. The wolffia genus has traditionally played a role in Asian cuisine, where it is used as a nutritious vegetable by the Thai, Burmese and Laotians. Duckweed can be mixed into soups and salad, or used in sandwiches as a substitute for alfalfa, lettuce, watercress or spinach.

And yes, perhaps Methane produced could be piped long distances across Mars to mining operations or other efforts, and that could be used as a fuel directly with CO2 to produce H20 at those locations.  Or they could split CO2 into CO and O2, and burn the Methane to produce electric power and water.  Or yes they  could just extract the H2 from the Methane, and react that with either CO2 or O2.

(I'm back on topic more precisely) smile

Done.   ??? How many people will ever bother to read this post???  smile

Last edited by Void (2016-11-21 12:58:55)


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#43 2016-11-21 16:51:04

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,144

Re: Power Distribution by pipelines on Mars.

Some links for the types of tunneling that we could do and wat could be the piping to keep the gasses and other stuff viable for delivery from place to place.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunnel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunnel_boring_machine
http://www.trelleborg.com/en/engineered … -solutions
http://www.triconpiping.com/products.php

The equipment will be tailored for use on mars not only by the mass but for energy system source, mobility and a few other characteristics.....

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#44 2016-11-21 20:41:40

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,011

Re: Power Distribution by pipelines on Mars.

I am greatly entertained spacenut.  Of course I like to play with rocks.  It reminds me of my youth, when I was a king in the mining world (Or at least youth provided me a convenient delusion of it. smile)

Yes indeed, if a powerful economy, then such tunneling machines and piping.  I suspect that if we can pick the locks of Mars, much riches for such a needed economy could be found.  But that isn't provided to us monkey people without a struggle to achieve a higher level.

I am thinking that the inhabitants of Mars would like to melt the perimeters of the ice masses of Mars, and use them for technologically achieved agricultural riches, to sponsor technological innovation.

The purpose of that of course to provide quite a nice life.  Here we have cultural problems.  Some of our kindred are deeply into suffering to bless the soul.  I won't mention specifically who and what I think they are.  My learning of such teachings is that if you purposely make life hard for your self or another that offends God.  It is cruelty and God does not work with cruelty.  (The real God).  But lets leave that aside (My choice, you can rebel against that, but I wish you would not).

Leaving that in the background if you want, I see the utility of tunneling/piping.

I could blab about it much more, but lets save that for later.

Last edited by Void (2016-11-21 20:57:03)


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#45 2016-11-22 12:04:09

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,011

Re: Power Distribution by pipelines on Mars.

The piping and tunneling process you suggested spacenut, suggests hyperloop.  (At least the tunneling part).

Once an agricultural method were established, I would think the major population might be hosted there, and the only reasons to have people elsewhere would be mining, spaceports, and science missions.

Providing Methane or Methane + Hydrogen would be a useful process to provide needed hydration and hydrocarbons to such remote locations.  Tunnels, and tubes would be a possible method to do it, but if constructed in certain ways they might host hyperloop activities as well the transport humans and refined ores, or manufactured items.

It can go in several directions.  If there is a manipulation of ice resources to provide a very strong farming method, chemosynthesis + photosynthesis, it can lend support to such important and desired  remote activities.

Pipelines might work, and you have mentioned tunnels through rocks and sand.  I would add tunnels through underground ice, and also above ground tubes, perhaps constructed from Sulfur concrete, and perhaps covered with regolith.  A transport network, which would join mining communities, lake farm communities, other types of farming communities, scientific communities, and provide an actual physical communication between them to provide a web of human activity.

Hyperloop activities could rotate between providing a resource such as Methane or Methane/Hydrogen to outlier communities, and then at lower pressures using the tubes / tunnels as transport devices.

That's enough for now.

Last edited by Void (2016-11-22 12:15:41)


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#46 2016-11-28 13:26:09

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,011

Re: Power Distribution by pipelines on Mars.

I am going to post this here, reasoning that a canal in many ways is a pipeline.

With reference to:
Index
» Human missions
» Time to go! As much water as Lake Superior- MarsColony Green Light!
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=7541,
and initiated by Louis.

Quote from that reference: (Specifically this article referred to: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 … 31031.htm).

The deposit ranges in thickness from about 260 feet (80 meters) to about 560 feet (170 meters), with a composition that's 50 to 85 percent water ice, mixed with dust or larger rocky particles.

Utopia Planitia, apparently has a great deal of ice/soil/rock mix.  ~The area of New Mexico, ~The volume of Lake Superior.

The cause of the deposits is explained by the speculation that it snowed there in times past.  Specifically under some climatic Martian conditions, this Utopia Planitia is a snow belt.  I further speculate that under some phases of a Martian Terraforming scheme, this mentioned location might be a snow belt again.

So there is an interred resource which is quite significant, and there might be a method to replenish it under certain terraforming conditions.

If humans are to inhabit Mars, they will alter it, and will consume some of it's available resources for their preferred or necessary purposes.

I have quite often suggested ice covered reservoirs as a method to provide "Habitat, more favorable to the survival of humans and other life.  Now I specifically suggest ice covered "Canals" in Utopia Planitia.

Canals on Earth are a very efficient method of moving objects from one location to another.  On Mars, they would not have the same qualities, as they would be ice covered, and a "Barge" would have to not float on the surface, but would have to have neutral controlled buoyancy control.  In addition, "Wave" action inside the canal might disrupt the ice cover, so that has to be compensated for.

So, compared to canals as we use them these canals would be troublesome.  However such canals would have other benefits, also functioning as "Habitat" for certain biological processes useful to humans, and perhaps even some type of farming which needs development.

The covering I contemplate is "Tile/pillows" of plastic with water/ice inside them.  To put them in place, they would be put over the ice of the canals, and then filled with liquid water, and that water allowed to freeze.  So, they would inhibit evaporation from icy surfaces.

On the edges of the canal perhaps regolith would be heaped over the edges of these "Tiles".  In the cracks between the tiles, some type of sealing process required.  Perhaps, a mix of soil and styrofoam.
(Or eventually a better idea).

A 100 foot deep canal will approximately generate a 1 bar pressure at it's bottom.  A 33 foot deep canal approximately a 1/3 bar pressure at it's bottom.

I anticipate that the real "Cities" will mostly be at the edges of Utopia Planitia.  The canals are a potential transportation method, and "farm land".

The process would not use up the whole resource of water from Utopia Planitia all at once, so "Make Up" water could be obtained from adjacent portions of the deposits, as the canals need their water replenished due to inevitable losses.  Having this "Make Up" water available is important so that once the system were built, it could be maintained for a long period of time, so that a long term terraforming process could be supported by the "Civilization" which it could be hoped could exist in the Utopia Planitia area.

For human fast travel Hyperloop would be used, perhaps in tunnels in the ice of Utopia Planetia.

Having such a resource and these technologies, it is possible that both the canal system and the Hyperloop system could be extended to some degree outside of the Utopia Planetia area to locations of importance such as mining operations.

That's fairly amusing, "Canals on Mars". smile

Last edited by Void (2016-11-28 13:52:55)


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#47 2016-11-28 13:54:04

Terraformer
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Re: Power Distribution by pipelines on Mars.

Alternatively, since canals don't require that much pressure to stay liquid, perhaps we could develop an extensive canal system that uses a low pressure (~20mb?) covering, composed maybe of ice and plastic. Translucent, but not necessarily transparent. Boats carrying humans would have to be pressurised, but any fish in the water should do okay.


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#48 2016-11-28 13:57:48

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,011

Re: Power Distribution by pipelines on Mars.

Yes, there are likely "most efficient/effective" methods which would generate profit while requiring less of a struggle to build/maintain, which could be the preferred adaptation.  In time those could be discovered/developed.


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#49 2016-11-28 20:20:27

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,144

Re: Power Distribution by pipelines on Mars.

I still see the issue as how do we get the equipment to Mars when the best we can currently do is just a small 2 mT in a Red Dragon....
If we solve this we can do almost anything within reason on Mars......which means now to segway to the NEO mars topic....

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#50 2016-11-28 21:22:43

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,011

Re: Power Distribution by pipelines on Mars.

It is interesting to hear what you have to say as your understanding of the solution required.

What is obvious to you is that not only do we need a place to plant a seed, but the reasonable possibility that it will not be a wasted effort, that the seed planted could grow into something of great value to humans.

Your desires are therefore I think perhaps an affirmation that the goal of having a reasonable place to plant a seed is reasonably satisfied, now, how to plant the seed becomes even more important.

Typically my efforts to propose methods for transportation are not well received.  But with your prompting, I will make a bit more of an effort over time.  It requires thinking, and time, and it seems likely that anything I produce will be summarily dismissed, but my pride is not that important.  I will consider your desires.

Last edited by Void (2016-11-28 21:27:45)


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