core issues

TonyTMarsBeginner · 2016-10-22 22:12:33

I was wondering about the Mars core and how it ties into terraforming. Is a spinning core essential to all the other live planet processes and cycles for example the water and air cycles or soil and atmosphere creation etc? For the environment to be self sustaining is a spinning core a necessity? Did Mars have a spinning core, and if so how did it stop, was it a major impact and if this is the case would another impact stop the core again, if it was somehow started again? Another interesting question is if it is possible to start the core with out blowing up or damaging any settlements in the process and what are these logistics, blast off a nuke for atmosphere and/or core spin and then colonize or the reverse etc, I think Zubrin wants to get there first and work out atmosphere stuff later but maybe the first trip should be a nuclear/atmosphere enhancement? I don't know if it has been discussed yet but I think that for long term habitation a central issue is going to end up being how to detect and stop impacts from ruining all of the hard gains made, be it settlements, mines, or the starting of the core for that matter. This I think is going to be paramount to any serious surface habitation and probably for underground living as well, though probably not important if habitation is always going to be on the small scale or Mars is just going to be visited for short stays every so often, or Mars is just going to be robot central.

Void · 2016-10-22 22:53:33

Tony,

I will only respond in part. I am sure others can express more for you as well, or they can also correct or oppose my opinion.

I do not think I believe in the necessity of a dynamic magnetic field anymore.

We have two apparent examples of worlds which can hold an atmosphere with an induced magnetic field. Venus, and I think perhaps also Pluto (Perhaps).

Recent literature I have read indicates that Mars may have never had a complete magnetic field, and that the dynamic magnetic field it did have was for the most part in on hemisphere. The north I think.

So, to me it is beginning to look like it is a disaster to a planet like Mars to have a mixed situation, where in part it has a dynamic magnetic field, and also an induced magnetic field in other places.

Currently it has a fossil magnetic field, mostly in one hemisphere, which is weak, and that situation helps the solar wind lift off big chunks of atmosphere.

As for restarting the previous magnetic field, that might not be an improvement. It still might be partial, which apparently actually contributes to atmospheric stripping by the solar wind.

It is interesting information per red dwarf stars, and any worlds they have.
I have seen information which suggests, such flair stars would strip the atmosphere off of it's planets. I have also seen information that suggests that Red Dwarf worlds could be choked in a Hydrogen/Helium coating.

So I have to wonder what's the deal!

I think that it is all of the above, sometimes. I also think that terrestrial worlds around red dwarf stars completely without a dynamic magnetic field could for the most part retain their atmospheres, since, the harder the stars magnetic wind blew, the more it would induce a counter and protective magnetic field in the plasma of the planets upper atmosphere.

If so, then a core generated magnetic field could be a blessing or a curse.

If a planet has too much of an atmosphere at birth, it might be good for it to have a malfunctioning magnetic field like Mars, so that it would allow the star to strip off some of the atmosphere. The Hydrogen and Helium in particular.

If a planet were to have too little atmosphere at birth, it might be good for it to either have a very good functional core generated dynamic magnetic field, or to have none at all and instead rely on an induced magnetic field.

Point being I think it all depends on what you like. Sometimes it's prime rib, and sometimes it will be much less, from our perspective.

Last edited by Void (2016-10-22 23:06:33)

Void · 2016-10-22 23:09:22

But about the value of Mars. I think Louis has it right, Mars is an absolute treasure, but it is not made for stone age post monkey people. It demands that we become more.

And it is not a familiar world. Leaving the tropics humans had to find new ways. This is much the same. It will take a lot of thinking, and trial and error.

TonyTMarsBeginner · 2016-10-22 23:34:10

Void wrote:

Tony,
I will only respond in part. I am sure others can express more for you as well, or they can also correct or oppose my opinion.
I do not think I believe in the necessity of a dynamic magnetic field anymore.
We have two apparent examples of worlds which can hold an atmosphere with an induced magnetic field. Venus, and I think perhaps also Pluto (Perhaps).
Recent literature I have read indicates that Mars may have never had a complete magnetic field, and that the dynamic magnetic field it did have was for the most part in on hemisphere. The north I think.
So, to me it is beginning to look like it is a disaster to a planet like Mars to have a mixed situation, where in part it has a dynamic magnetic field, and also an induced magnetic field in other places.
Currently it has a fossil magnetic field, mostly in one hemisphere, which is weak, and that situation helps the solar wind lift off big chunks of atmosphere.
As for restarting the previous magnetic field, that might not be an improvement. It still might be partial, which apparently actually contributes to atmospheric stripping by the solar wind.

Very interesting information some of these things are kind of counterintuitive and its good to share others insights. After reading some of the terraforming posts I kind of think that a lot of the ideas could be applied to an underground mini city with its own atmosphere, magnetic field, soil formation, various processes and cycles, and much more. Do you favor a particular method of atmosphere enhancement like a quick nuke blast scenario or a far into the future type situation with not yet developed technologies or a hybrid plan like small terraforming projects or no terraforming at all?

Tom Kalbfus · 2016-10-23 05:46:28

I don't think we can do much about the core.

Void · 2016-10-23 07:45:43

Tony,

This is just me. I think the ultimate payday is where the polar ice caps of Mars can be melted to form ice covered bodies of water. I support the use of greenhouse gasses to aid in this, and with them the further inflation of the atmosphere from relatively exposed frozen CO2 deposits.

There are a couple of other people here who mention ice covered bodies of water as well from time to time, so the concept on a smaller scale is not entirely unsupported here.

Although Greenhouse gasses and atmospheric inflation will help to warm the caps, and greater atmospheric pressure, even just the doubling of current pressure would make ice more stable on the surface of Mars, I am not that passive. I include tricks to melt the water from below, and leave a ice layer on top.

Methods to melt from below:

1) Fission power is one possible option, and of course the byproduct would be electrical energy.

2) Fusion power, I think will show up by the time humans are even interested in trying to do it, and again, electrical energy will be a byproduct.

3) Solar thermal may be just fine to do the task. Poke a solar power tower into the ice of the polar ice cap, and point a bunch of heliostats at it, you could get very high temperatures. And in fact again electrical power as a byproduct.

4) Atmospheric chemical method. Small quantities of CO and O2 naturally form in the Martian atmosphere from the splitting of CO2 and H20 by U.V. light. If by some method these can be extracted in an effective/efficient manner, these products could be injected into the reservoirs of water. Microbes could digest these gasses, and in doing this would also create heat, like a moist haystack. Also if those gasses were extractable, then electrical energy could be extracted with and engine of some kind (Antius designed one), or with a fuel cell.

5) At the height of development, I would expect to recruit the method of using ice covered canals to transport water to lower latitudes where the extra space will provide solar energy applied to splitting H20 into H2 and O2. The H2 could be exported by pipeline to the ice caps and injected into the water for the digestive pleasure of the organisms. The O2 could be consumed by humans in cities, or dumped to atmosphere, since the method #4 would end up using it anyway.

6) It is worth contemplating if it were possible to "Pollute" the Martian atmosphere with more CO and O2 by doing photolysis at any latitude on Mars and dumping some of it to atmosphere. I would think solar power towers might do this, in association with heliostats, and some kind of catalyst.
I would hope that at the tower site, some of the CO and O2 could be captured for local use, and some would leak to atmosphere, enhancing this potential chemical resource used in #4.

What are the arguments for doing this?

I am not above implicating other members, and dragging them into this.

-Antius indicates an opinion that the ability to shed heat, will be something very desired if humans continue to develop, and I presume if they develop further in Nuclear energy fission/fusion.

-And I say, if you look at ecologies on Earth, you have two which might be implemented by these methods. They both exist in Antarctica.

A) Ice covered lakes without solar photon inputs. (These exist under glacier/ice cap ice).
http://www.nature.com/news/lakes-under- … en-1.15729
They do mention microbes that eat chemicals from the lake bottom, but I know that some lakes have a situation where H2 and Nitrous Oxide are generated by interaction of brine with the lake bottom, then microbes use that.

B) Solar heated dry valley lakes. (These are actually solar powered, light passing through an ice surface heats them). Also melt water is added to these lakes for a very short period in the summer, and this adds some heat.
The lakes consist of a anaerobic very salt lower layer of water in the dark, and an Oxygenated upper layer of cold water which is less salty. Also of course a layer of ice above that that lets light through.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMurdo_Dry_Valleys
*Note: As dry valley lakes would allow sunlight in, they would also allow in U.V. unfortunately. I have read that before the Earth had an ozone layer, life that did photosynthesis could exist 200 feet down. They would have used Violet light and Long U.V. for their photosynthesis. The water column would filter out the deadly parts of the U.V. by 200 feet down. Organic matter in the water column helps to filter out the short U.V.
*Note: An organic sunscreen might help the situation. Perhaps a film of oil on the underside of the ice.

Last edited by Void (2016-10-23 08:26:07)

Void · 2016-10-23 08:28:47

Tony,

I am going to start a new post as #6 is long, and is on a specific topic.

I am not against what the other members plan, not at all. The material of #6 could only be implemented after a progression of metamorphic developments in the industrial culture of Mars.

Of course it will start with the people who actually can get someone there.

Obviously first come nomads who live in flying tin cans.

Then per "Louis" it is hoped that some researchers may be sponsored by universities, and governments, to do greater discovery of the ground truth of Mars.

From the beginning there will be pressure to make material objects and substances insitu, from the environment of Mars itself.

As the technological culture would develop, it would become possible in the end I would hope for humans to master the polar ice caps of Mars, and begin the implementation of a Martian ecology.

At first, thick ice covered lakes, where no sun shines ever. These would be fed with chemicals to stimulate life. That would be paid for I presume by the benefits of having life grow in them. Although you might have layers that would be toxic to fish, still you could have a food chain that leads to fish, and portions of the water that would be suitable for fish.

Also the microbial anaerobic life could provide feed stock for plastics.

In the case of the southern polar ice cap which is elevated, you could have ice covered canals that run downhill by gravity feed and provide large quantities of water to cities closer to the equator.

As canal work became more notable, it would be practical to create dry valley lakes at certain latitudes, beginning to provide a habitat for a direct photon driven ecology.

How much further life could go on Mars will be limited by the quantity and quality of the eventual expanded atmosphere, and perhaps the use of special "Super Greenhouse" gasses.

The two major impediments will be the U.V. flux, and the nightly frosts.

I don't think that an Ozone layer of significance is possible if the atmosphere remains dominated by CO2. I would like to be wrong about that.

At minimum it would be desired to have from .25 to .33 bars of atmosphere. Somewhere in there as a minimum. It is not guaranteed that that can be achieved or exceeded. Some believe it can be.

At lower latitudes, nightly frosts should still occur with such a thin atmosphere, particularly if it is not dominated by CO2 but is dominated by O2. Perhaps the use of super greenhouse gasses could buffer that. Frosty nights would deliver water to the surface in some cases nightly, but also the frost would make it very hard to establish higher plant life forms.

The polar areas around the ice cap/seas may be an exception to this on a seasonal basis, since they would be "The land of the midnight sun". Significant frost free periods may occur there on a seasonal basis in the summers. So possibly more advanced plant life could be established of a High Arctic / Antarctic Peninsula or even low artic, or just possibly Tiaga nature.

https://php.radford.edu/~swoodwar/biomes/?page_id=89

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antarctic_Peninsula

https://www.bing.com/search?q=tiaga&for … 7&pq=tiaga

Perhaps the earliest case of some advanced surface life could occur in the Hellas depression, if you fed a river/canal into it and created a large marsh. That would have frost protection built into it, and of course it would be one of the best possible air pressure situations.

But you would first have to develop strains of life more tolerant of U.V. and you would have to reduce the U.V.

And this is where the ice cap oceans come in. If you are feeding microbes/fish chemicals in those waters, then they will capture Carbon into Hydrocarbons. The organic materials may in some cases be used as food.
In any case eventually the hydrocarbons would be converted to plastics.

Mostly the plastics could be placed in a situation where they will not recombine with Oxygen.

And in the end I would hope for a minimum of .25 bars of atmosphere on Mars, dominated by Oxygen instead of CO2, and I would hope that that would allow a significant ozone layer.

Last edited by Void (2016-10-23 09:04:50)

Void · 2016-10-23 09:06:50

Shelter.

While humans could shelter in the waters of artificial ice covered lakes, and could have greenhouses there that were artificially lit, I prefer to look for a place for cities much closer to the equator.

I am looking at sandstone, and as an example Mt. Sharp. Curiously.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronom … hwest.html
curiosity_murraybuttes4.jpg.CROP.original-original.jpg

http://www.boredpanda.com/cave-carving- … ew-mexico/

And a very nice video documentary of it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxcftjJ39BU

If I am to presume that Mars sandstone can be used this way, the two problems most needing solving are water supply, and holding air pressure in such sandstone envelope caves. This has been addressed in part under "Life Support".

https://www.wentevineyards.com/weddings … tone-caves

Lots of cave pictures here:
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=sa … &FORM=IGRE

I'm done.

Last edited by Void (2016-10-23 09:25:31)

Antius · 2016-10-23 11:37:22

Here are a few examples of cob house interiors. Basically, a mixture of clay and straw. Cob is often used to make furniture, fires, stairways and other features, moulded into the structure of the building. This is how I would imagine the internal structure of a Mars base would look. Practically any static structural item can be made in this way, basically moulded out of clay.

interiorbathtub

Void · 2016-10-23 12:11:18

Although it may not be what you intend, that would be a good "Plaster" for a carved sandstone cave. It might be less permeable to air loss as well.

And clay is now known to be available on Mars.

As for straw, I would hope to find and refine a rugged grass/weed of some kind that can grow under hard but generous conditions. Such as in a low pressure greenhouse (Even though R.D. has given me the impression that such greenhouses are a great labor to create and maintain).

Perhaps actually sandstone caves could serve, if humans were will willing to use LED's to illuminate the gardens.

That actually could be a good fit, as it would give humans "Fields" of grass to walk through.

Last edited by Void (2016-10-23 12:19:21)

TonyTMarsBeginner · 2016-10-23 12:30:17

Void wrote:

Shelter.
While humans could shelter in the waters of artificial ice covered lakes, and could have greenhouses there that were artificially lit, I prefer to look for a place for cities much closer to the equator.
I am looking at sandstone, and as an example Mt. Sharp. Curiously.
I'm done.

Mt. Sharp seems to have several resources in the general vicinity like almost perfectly formed sedimentary slabs for walls and flooring etc, the depression around the mountain could hold water, and with 18,000 feet or so there is an opportunity for good water pressure, the landing sites in the area seems relatively good even if it was overshot some, and it looks like level ground up to the ice-caps in regards to canals or piping, the Hematite might prove useful maybe even indicative of gold, there seems to be academic interest in the area too, all in all it seems like a good contender with possibilities. Are you thinking along the lines of the Egyptian tomb builders how they followed fractures and faults for easier digging?

The Syria Planum region is an area that I am looking forward to learning more about once they get there, it might not have so many readily available resources like Mt. Sharp, though I find myself intrigued by the highlands.

TonyTMarsBeginner · 2016-10-23 15:07:36

Void wrote:

Tony,

Obviously first come nomads who live in flying tin cans.
Then per "Louis" it is hoped that some researchers may be sponsored by universities, and governments, to do greater discovery of the ground truth of Mars.
From the beginning there will be pressure to make material objects and substances insitu, from the environment of Mars itself.
As the technological culture would develop, it would become possible in the end I would hope for humans to master the polar ice caps of Mars, and begin the implementation of a Martian ecology.
In the case of the southern polar ice cap which is elevated, you could have ice covered canals that run downhill by gravity feed and provide large quantities of water to cities closer to the equator.

Have any Universities or Governments been asked to sponsor up front before the first manned missions? Not to assume too much but I would think that many would donate moneys ahead of settlement, also I would think that a country like Korea who have invested trillions into their robotics programs would love a chance to flex their robotic muscles by donating a robot to the missions, of course SpaceX would have to have to final say on what they would carry within their parameters but it would be interesting to ask around if it hasn't already been done.

Do the polar ice caps regenerate or once they're gone they're gone, and if this is the case how much time and usage would there be?

Void · 2016-10-23 15:19:34

Tony,

I would definitely consult with construction type persons, professionals, if I were to be there trying to do it.

I think that a question that would need answering, is do you carve inside a pressurized system and risk a rupture, or do you primarily use special machines, and then patch and seal the system later?

The idea of university sponsorship is definitely from Louis. You can query "Antarctic Research Funding" on the net, and that might give you a feel as to how that works. As far as nations go, I suppose there is some bragging rights for nations, showboating, and I would guess that they may get more and better and earlier information of basic science results, which could translate into money/power benefits.

The polar ice caps are currently the primary condensation points for water.
When the planet is tilted more, as it is supposed it was in the past, the equator would have been the primary condensation point. This is part of why there are possibilities that buried ice exists all over the planet in places.

Where I hope to melt the ice caps from below, Antius goes even further, and would like to boil them, to cool power plants. In that case vented water vapor would mostly freeze back to the ice cap I suppose, with the heat radiating off to the deep universe, but the process would tend to humidify the atmosphere as well.

I would suppose that both can be done if fusion engines come into being.

OK, I am not going to vouch for this, but it illustrates that it is possible that someone will build a fusion engine, and it might not be a big giant tokamak.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokamak

Instead it might be like this:
http://www.sorlox.com/

I would be more skeptical, but there was an article some time ago about:
http://www.lockheedmartin.com/us/produc … usion.html
I thought that was ridiculous. How could you put a Tokamak in the truck?
But this Sorlox thing showed up now.

I have seen other articles about a miniaturize fusion device that was made more powerful by running electric currents through it's plasma.

It seems that a pulsed fusion rocket is possible.

The point being that fusion power may show up as real at some point, and that will change everything.

I recall reading an article where Zubrin, indicated that Mars has concentrated Deuterium in it's frozen water.

This article supports that assertion.
https://www.theguardian.com/science/201 … an-on-mars

So if a fusion nuclear reactor is practical/relatively simple and possible to mass produce, then you have the hot side of an energy source, that could last billions of years, and Mars has already concentrated it.

Per Antius, the polar ice caps are probably the best source of cold for an energy source.

You could in fact try to establish cities around the polar ice cap reservoirs created, and just forget the rest of the planet except for minerals. I don't think that will be done, but clearly once this is cracked, the polar areas have massive relative value.

Humans might try something like this in their polar reservoirs:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/spe … awberries/

The difference would be you would have to add a warm water tent, to hold warm water to the bottom, as the polar seas would be quite cold.
You would also have to add artificial lighting, and air bubble apparatuses.

More practical would be to simply have air bubbles where your artificial lights are, and let those light fixtures shine light on the reservoir bottom, allowing plants to grow. We may find it hard to find plants suitable for eating though because there has been no pressure to domesticate such up to now. That is not to say it could not be done.

Alternate use of the reservoir is to dump chemicals into it such as H2, CH4, CO, O2, N2, and maybe a bit of CO2 to foster an artificial ecosystem/farm.
The plankton would be used to make industrial products, and perhaps in some cases to feed fish for human consumption.

The point is that with fusion reactions, a whole different Mars is possible.

You could have cities all around these frozen over reservoirs, and vehicles that travel between them through the water.

Even if the atmospheric pressure were never to be improved (Made greater), still the water would all eventually precipitate back to the tops of these polar reservoirs, and using fusion power, the ice/snow pack would be melted again from below.

Last edited by Void (2016-10-23 16:06:10)

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#1 2016-10-22 22:12:33

core issues

#2 2016-10-22 22:53:33

Re: core issues

#3 2016-10-22 23:09:22

Re: core issues

#4 2016-10-22 23:34:10

Re: core issues

#5 2016-10-23 05:46:28

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#6 2016-10-23 07:45:43

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#7 2016-10-23 08:28:47

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#9 2016-10-23 11:37:22

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#10 2016-10-23 12:11:18

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