Family - ::Or:: I'm related to Neaderthals

Palomar · 2003-03-04 14:03:06

*Well folks, I generally don't care to get overly personal on the internet, but I happened to discover this past Saturday evening that, if my mother and her sister (my Aunt Mary), both in their early 60s, had their way about it, all space exploration funding would be ended. Period. No probes to Jupiter. No further study of the sun ("Well, if a big solar flare does happen, what can we do to stop it anyway? We can't do anything about what the sun does" was the jist of the the "argument" they gave relative to solar studies). Europa? I asked if they would support a probe to Europa, to see if there is life under the ice and in the waters there. My aunt curled up her lip and said, "To see if they have a bug there?" I was totally stunned; I thought, if anyone, SHE was more open-minded and naturally curious than that. I replied, "Finding a bug there -- ANY sort of life -- would be the astronomical finding of all history." She didn't care; can the probe -- we don't need to go to Europa. A Mars mission? Forget it, obviously; too expensive. Even Robert Zubrin's plan (as opposed to the bloated cost of NASA) is too expensive. My mother tried to counter my attempts at persuasion by asking me if I believe there is life elsewhere in the universe, and also if I believe in UFOs. I told her this isn't about UFOs. As for life in the universe -- possibly; but now we're talking about Mars. It went in one ear and right out the other.

The -only- astronomy studies, in their opinion, which should be "allowed" to continue and be funded are earth-based telescopes/observatories. I guess it would be bye-bye to Hubble, if Mom and Mary had their way.

I still could not believe my aunt's attitude, especially. I asked her if she did have it in her power to end all research, exploration, etc. -- including probes (which are unmanned, of course) -- would she truly end all this science, exploration, etc.? She said YES. My body felt numb with shock. I asked her why, if she had the power to end all research and related, she would deprive others the gratification of having their curiosity and desire to explore. She just shook her head and said "It costs too much. We only need to be concerned with Earth; what goes on here."

To disagree/disapprove of the continuation of space exploration, research, etc., is, IMO, bad enough; but my aunt stating she WOULD end all of it if she indeed had the power and authority to do so -- that actually made me angry. It's one thing to not be interested yourself; it's another matter entirely to wish to deprive others, and to do so if able.

Etc., etc.

I don't understand that mentality at all. Anyone else here have relatives who subscribe to "Good Cavekeeping"?

--Cindy

Palomar · 2003-03-04 14:38:30

*Hmmmm, I just happened to be reminded, after posting the above, of a friend of my husband's named Bobby. He's 51 years old. I had just become acquainted with them when, in 12/01, my husband and I decided to drop by for a visit; Jeamie was gone, visiting relatives, so we spent some time with Bobby. It didn't take long to figure out he's a small-minded twit (amongst other things).

Somehow -- I think my husband brought it up -- the Apollo missions came into the subject. Man has never been on the moon, it was all one big hoax, Bobby declared. Mind made up. I asked him what about all the engineers, professional journalists, scientists and politicians involved...did he really think ALL of these people would agree to playing along with a hoax...MULTIPLE times? That distinguished, highly degreed scientists would pretend to do experiments on styrofoam (supposing to be moon rocks), etc., etc.? He couldn't answer; he "just knows" man has never been to the moon. I mentioned my involvement with the Mars Society, including the desire to send a human crew to Mars and eventual colonization.

Bobby's brilliant reply? "If man were meant to fly, he'd have wings."

I returned, "Oh, okay. So let's ground all airplanes, helicopters and paragliders, right Bobby? Because 'if man were meant to fly, he'd have wings'?" He just sat there puffing on his cigarette, started scribbling on a note pad and mumbled something inane.

I dropped the subject, of course. He'd proven to me within 5 minutes that any semblance of intelligent conversation is an impossibility with him.

--Cindy

Byron · 2003-03-04 15:21:54

Cindy, this brings to mind some aspects of human behavior I've been studying about...(that's the coolest thing about writing a novel - it gives me a reason to learn about all kinds of cool things...)

Are you familiar with "group think"? The best example of this is a group of intelligent people working together in a group who come together to make a very poor and stupid decision, which happens more times than I care to think about .
If each of those individuals (in a seperate fashion) are asked about whether this idea is a dumb one, all but the orginator (usually the boss or leader) of the idea in the first place will say yes, that's a really dumb idea. But when it comes to making the collective descision, not one will dare say the emperor has no clothes. Hence, the poor decision is made. This is why large institutions such as government agencies end up doing things that run counter to the people they are supposely working for.

It seems that once people make up their mind, nothing can be done to change their ways, even though they *know* deep down that it's wrong! What these people need is a cold splash of water in their face...lol. Even in my web design biz, I encounter people who insist on doing things a certain way ("well, everyone else does like this"), despite me telling them that it's really not in their interest in doing it the way "other people" do it. How else is one expected to get ahead in a supposely competitive society if you don't do things "differently?" Hmm??

As for support for space exploration...ugh, I don't even want to go down that route. My hope is that some 3rd world country decides it wants to throw sand in the face of the US by launching a high-profile space mission someday, which may very well turn around people's perception of our space program. Imagine what would happen here in the US if China manages to place a crew on Mars - without our help or influence whatsoever...

B

Palomar · 2003-03-04 15:45:07

Byron: Are you familiar with "group think"?

*Oh, yes. Sadly...yes.

Byron: Even in my web design biz, I encounter people who insist on doing things a certain way ("well, everyone else does like this"), despite me telling them that it's really not in their interest in doing it the way "other people" do it. How else is one expected to get ahead in a supposely competitive society if you don't do things "differently?" Hmm??

*Yep. "Be yourself (conform, conform, conform!)."

Thanks for the reply!

--Cindy

Phobos · 2003-03-04 19:36:41

Those are some truly disturbing viewpoints your relatives have and I have to admit that members of my own blood line share similiar views. People seem to take everything in their lives for granted, their refrigerators, the medications they take, the electricity that powers the lights they read by, etc. We wouldn't have any of these things if it wasn't for pure basic research that didn't have immediate payoffs. Scientific research is especially important to undertake in this day and age since the only way we can support a huge population on Earth is through technology. There's no going back to the forest to live off the land for most of humanity. Nature simply couldn't support it. Ultimately, I think science and technological developments are in the same vein as creating art in the sense that they are a means of expressing our intellectual abilities. People have no problem supporting the arts but they seem to shrug when it comes to building something like a super collider that could enhance our understanding of the universe many times and lead to technological spinoffs down the line that would make our lives much more productive and enjoyable. People can be so shortsighted.

Shaun Barrett · 2003-03-05 02:15:43

I'm ashamed to admit my own mother used to say she'd never go into space because you couldn't take a bath in those poky little space capsules!!

Even when the Moon landings were happening, I couldn't impart to her the sense of wonder in it all. When I mentioned the Moon, all she could do was repeat the question: "Can they take a bath while they're on the Moon?"
If not, she wasn't interested in going there!!

I think she was missing the point!

clark · 2003-03-05 10:20:20

Well, I for one am not surprised by the disdain many others have for space exploration, or the value of it. More precisely, your friends and family show their rationality by correctly observing that human space exploration is irrational.

You see, space exploration by humans is irrational. It dosen't make sense. It certainly isn't practical. And by most estimates, it is an ineffecient endevour with dubious rewards.

Now, we space entusiasts may argue that space exploration is rational, that it is neccessary, but our arguments are based on an ideology, on shared assumptions that apparently we can only see. If the truth and reward of human space exploration was so evident, then there would be far more people who see as we do.

But they don't.

They don't see the prosperity that we assume would result. They can't imagine the benefits we predict will result from greater human exploration of space.

We talk of spending multi-billions of dollars to build a fancy house on a desolate and barren rock millions of miles from anything that can be considered hospitable, for what, a half dozen people?

And from this, we assume that all of mankind will benefit.

Of course we also believe that only humanities most profound questions can be answered by the stars. Are we alone, are there others, what new insights can we learn about ourselves?

While we space enthusiats marvel and wonder, the rest of the world shrugs becuase they don't have that urge that makes it important to them.

Say there are alien micobes on Mars. Great! New factoid for kids to learn, but how has this improved our lives? It hasn't, but that 20 billion could have funded several dozen after-school programs, or helped to find a cure to some disease.

What has more value to a human on earth, the discovery of microbiotic life on Mars, or vaccines?

The rational answer is vaccines. The irrational answer is Mars, becuase in it, we hope for more than just mere vaccines. We hope for a future beyond our expectations.

That's what space is for us, the creation of a future beyond our expectations. That's what we are talking about we we discuss living in space. That's what we want when we imagine a new civilization forming from the red martian dust- a world beyond expectation.

Yet, there are really only a few of us compared to the rational throng of all humanity. Most people just want to improve their personal lives, or at the very least, not make it harder.

Human space exploration does neither. Sure, it can be a fuzzy-feel good event, but that is like Christmas, a feeling that comes and goes with the time of year.

We spend the capital and expend the resources to achieve whatever human space exploration goal we might set, yet we still need the vaccines, our children still need better educations, and we all want to pay less in taxes.

So is it any wonder that human space exploration isn't a priority?

We want humanity to explore creation simply becuase we have an urge, an urge that has exsisted in our species since our begining. Yet we must realize, and accept, that this urge that makes us feel, think, and act the way we do, is not shared by everyone.

dicktice · 2003-03-05 11:34:29

Cindy: What do you expect...just ask yourself, why do you think differently from them? My Dad always had a pile of Amazing Stories beside the bed. They were his "grown up" reading, to me, since the stories were uncomprehensible, so I merely looked at the illustrations suitably amazed. I'd already been through the Oz Books, Tom Swift and G-8 and His Flying Aces, before graduating to Amazing, Astounding and Wonder Stories. Dad never discussed the content of those early space operas with me. (Having since read most of them in anthologies, I can imagine why...they were written by 20-year-olds just starting out for the most part, at 1/2-cent per word.) Mom on the other hand, started me out before I could read on said Oz Books, which I learned to read to find out what happened in the next chapter, and got me a public library card. She read my sisters and I Greek mythology, and me the eldest, popular astronomy, and took us on nature walks. Charles and Anne Lindbergh visited during his glider phase, and everyone knows of his enthusiastic support of that crazy Goddard's liquid-fueled rocket experiments. Dad started a glider in the basement as a result. Nothing in school during all the time even hinted at space travel (referred to as "Buck Rogers") being a serious topic for discussion. "Science Fiction" is popular beyond belief now, but to me not "hard" enough, and the storylines too "futuristic" to waste time reading. So, Cindy, take it from an old guy, and forget trying to convert your nearest and dearest who raised you, and concentrate on the next generation...some of whom might be the ones to bring up their offspring "out there."
Byron: Can you say C-H-I-N-A? because, the new, young, educated regime just taking over from the last of the Old Guard, surely will be off-and-running to grab the Moon, once they succeed in bringing the first China-naut back from LEO safe and sound. Depend on it--where else can they go, but "up there"? Of course, then the U.S.A. will have to postpone Mars...and we'll be off again...on Moon-race II.
Phobos: As long as "people" are congress persons responsible for budgeting big-science programs that take longer to prove-out than elected mandates, expect no better. What alternative can you suggest---international private enterprise, perhaps?
Shaun: Don't knock bathtubs on the moon. Showering in a bag, in weightlessness, must be living hell...hardly preferreable to living in each other's stink. Come to think of it, maybe a return to that way of life might recreate some intimate experiences we have lost--just kidding, I think. Any way, "Cleanliness is next to Godliness," don't forget, and once the Moon is ready for colonists, folks like your Mom will be needed to provide a civilizing influence.
I thank you all, for your kind attention (assuming you got this far) to my remarks.

Shaun Barrett · 2003-03-05 18:40:38

I never have any difficulty reading all the way to the end of your posts, Dicktice.
I find they make a lot of sense!

Palomar · 2003-03-06 07:02:11

Dicktice: Cindy: What do you expect...

*Actually the subject came up out of the blue (not by me), so really there was no expectation.

Dicktice: just ask yourself, why do you think differently from them?

*I don't know -why- I think differently from them...I just do. I've been interested in stars, space, etc., ever since I can remember.

Dicktice: So, Cindy, take it from an old guy, and forget trying to convert your nearest and dearest who raised you

*Actually I wasn't trying to convert them. We were discussing current events, and either my aunt or mother brought up her point of view that the space program needs to be shut down permanently. I felt it necessary to defend the space program; to speak my point of view. The conversation only went on as long as I felt it was worth continuing. In those sorts of situations I feel I have to defend and explain the importance of space exploration, etc.

, and concentrate on the next generation...some of whom might be the ones to bring up their offspring "out there."

*Oh, I agree. I have some plans in that regard.

--Cindy

dicktice · 2003-03-06 10:38:36

Cindy: Thanks for those responses. Very nice.

wccmarsface@msn.com · 2003-04-20 23:07:31

Hi Cindy! I am so very new to the Mars Society and the message boards here. I am new to online communication and my wccmarsface e-mail address I've had for only a couple of months. My name is Bill. I've recently moved to the state of Washington in the Puget Sound area after having spent the past 25 years in San Antonio, Texas. My education, at least at the formal level, is nil: I've never gotten past the ninth grade in high school and I've never been to college. I've been married once, very happily so, but my wife, after about five years of wonderful matrimony, passed away from cardiac arrest from a heart condition at the tender age of 36 back in 1989 (my beloved Brenda was four years older than me; we had no children because of her heart condition). Cindy, I so very much enjoy the entries of ecrasez_l_inflame. I'd like to view myself as somewhat of an independent thinker with, at least, some ability to work things out irrespective of my educational background, or lack thereof. In regards to your aunt and mother, and please note that in no way do I wish to come off in any sort of way disingenuous toward people that you love, but they, much like my Christian fundementalist brother, have no use what-so-ever for the only tried and true means of garnering the truth: show me the kind of evidence that can be independently verifiable from a redundant variety of sources. The universe is expanding: the light we see from the vast majority of distant galaxies are red-shifted, you know, the doppler-effect of the light seen in the red spectrum because of the long wavelengths screaming at us: "we're moving away from you, so long!" There is a clear anatomical link between birds and theropod dinosaurs (cladistic taxonomy). Humans have a definable fossil record along hominid ancestors stemming from Africa going at least back to mid or early Pliocene times. During Project Apollo, twelve American men walked on the moon from 1969 to 1972. Europa might have something alive in that watery subsurface ocean that most planetary scientists agree is there which makes it absolutely incumbent upon us to have a look-see. Cindy, Mars beckons us, most of all. If we give in to those who cannot ostensibly "see the forest for the trees," then we all lose in the long-run. Eventually, our future as a sentient race will likely depend on where we go from here. Mars beckons us, Cindy. At risk of the fine folks "who know better than me, which is, of course, possible!" I'm hedging a bet that when we finally send women and men to Mars, we will find, dare I even say it, "Hoagland's" ruins..........ruins, Cindy, that really might be there, built by none other than homo sapiens sapiens, because I have seen controversial peer-reviewed palaeoanthropological papers indicating that "anatomically modern" humans may go back as far as 350,000 years. Then again, I see one Professor Charles H. Hapgood as a careful investigator and free thinker who checked his thesis with people like the U.S. Air Force Cartography Section at Westover Air Force Base. Cindy, if the ruins simply aren't there, Mars ever-so-much beckons us to have that unambiguous look-see. Look forward to more of your wonderful entries, as well as all the other fine people chatting on the Mars Society message boards, Cindy! wccmarsface@msn.com

PaganToris · 2003-04-21 15:39:29

well i thnx we all were related to neandrothols and other stuff such as hommo fobe homer and such others as they say men were ape B4 they turned in to apes.

Alexander Sheppard · 2003-05-31 14:48:56

Well of course space exploration is rational. What could be more rational than expanding life's habitat unknowable-how-many times over and creating consciousness capable of who-knows-what? To say that isn't rational is, as far as I can see, sort of like saying that killing yourself is rational, or sitting in a room staring at a wall all day is rational, or something.

Palomar · 2003-05-31 15:48:26

Hi Cindy! I am so very new to the Mars Society and the message boards here. I am new to online communication and my wccmarsface e-mail address I've had for only a couple of months. My name is Bill.

*Hi Bill! I'm very sorry for the delay in responding to your post; I didn't see it until today, when Alex responded to the thread. I've not been visiting New Mars every day since mid-April, and also posts can shuffled (and subsequently go unseen) rather quickly as a result (just ask Shaun Barrett...hey Shaun, remember the chile pepper question and my delay in seeing and responding to it??).

I wasn't ignoring you.

Thanks for your input. Sorry to hear about your wife...my god, that's just too young to pass away!

--Cindy

Shaun Barrett · 2003-06-01 07:35:03

Hi Cindy!
Yeah, I remember "the chile pepper question". How could I forget your vivid descriptions of the popular delicacies in your neck of the woods?! The apology you gave for your delay in responding was quite unnecessary. As you say, it's easy to overlook things when they get 'shuffled'.
(I wish I could find some of these exchanges again - I seem to lose track of a lot of good New Mars stuff.)
And I think I remember you as good as promised to introduce me to some of those tasty dishes if I ever made it to your area, too. You know, life is unpredictable ... the day may dawn when you have to make good on that promise!

["Sheesh!", says Cindy to herself, "I really will have to start being more careful about what I say here!!" ]

Palomar · 2003-06-01 10:30:50

Hi Cindy!
... And I think I remember you as good as promised to introduce me to some of those tasty dishes if I ever made it to your area, too. You know, life is unpredictable ... the day may dawn when you have to make good on that promise!
["Sheesh!", says Cindy to herself, "I really will have to start being more careful about what I say here!!" ]

*Oh goodie! If you are ever in the area, I would very much like to meet you and I'll put together a delicious meal. We're friendly folk and I'm a very good cook. My husband and his expanding waistline can vouch for that!

--Cindy

Shaun Barrett · 2003-06-02 01:31:34

Why, ma'am, you overwhelm me.
Your intelligence is rivalled only by your gracious generosity of spirit! (... and possibly your culinary skills!! )
Thank you for your kind words.

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#1 2003-03-04 14:03:06

Re: Family - ::Or:: I'm related to Neaderthals

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Re: Family - ::Or:: I'm related to Neaderthals

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