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#1 2015-09-16 21:18:03

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 9,851

Hawaii Space Exploration Analog and Simulation station

We have talked about the food research that this station has done in the past in another thread topic and I thought that it was time to make this spot to capture other important Mars research.

NASA Begins 12-Month Experiment Simulating Life on Mars a series of studies to test how long-term isolation and confinement may affect crew psychology and team performance. HI-SEAS began in 2013, and three missions have been concluded; the fourth began on August 28 and will last for 365 days. (Twelve months is still far shorter than the length of a real expedition to Mars. Most actual mission profiles are 2.5 to 3 years long.)

0925marsonearth01.jpg

Martha Lenio, commander of the NASA human performance study Hawaii Space Exploration Analog and Simulation wears a spacesuit outside of Mauna Loa, Hawaii, on June 13. For eight months Lenio has lived in a dome, confined with five other researchers in the crater of the volcano as part of a NASA study studying the prospect of manned missions to Mars. The unearthly environment atop the volcano provides an ideal setting to monitor the psychological response of human beings in conditions of isolation.

This is not the first Nasa research mission using the sites of Mars society,,

A major component of the experiments is exposing human guinea pigs to extreme scarcity. For example, they have access to only a very limited supply of water (each participant gets to shower seven minutes per week, max), and their food is exclusively dehydrated—unless they can come up with their own way to grow fresh produce. The crew from the recently concluded mission included a sustainability and indoor gardening expert, Martha Lenio, who managed to grow a few salutary tomatoes. They also are forced to endure the type of lackluster communication they’d experience on Mars. Sending and receiving email, for example, has an artificial 20-minute delay.

“Mars is the ultimate sustainability project,” says Lenio. “Living on Mars means coming up with a way to recycle every single resource: air, water, food and even waste. We forget that we have to recycle everything because Earth recycles it for us, but on Mars you don’t have that luxury. So if we can figure out a way to do this on Mars, for sure it will have implications here on Earth.”

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#2 2015-10-25 17:13:58

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 9,851

Re: Hawaii Space Exploration Analog and Simulation station

Getting to Mars ‘without killing each other’

Lots of good stuff on group dynamics

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#3 2016-08-28 17:36:06

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 9,851

Re: Hawaii Space Exploration Analog and Simulation station

Mock Mars Crew Returns to Civilization After Year in Isolation

After a year living in isolation, six crew members on a mock mission to Mars emerged on Sunday.

The crew members had been living in an isolated habitation the bare, rocky slopes of Mauna Loa on the island of Hawaii, as part of the HI-SEAS program (Hawaii Space Exploration Analogue and Simulation), based out of the University of Hawaii.

The program is helping scientists to understand how the isolation of a deep space mission would impact human participants.

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#4 2016-08-28 18:43:36

GW Johnson
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From: McGregor, Texas USA
Registered: 2011-12-04
Posts: 2,459
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Re: Hawaii Space Exploration Analog and Simulation station

So how does 1 year of isolation apply to a 2.5-3.3 year mission to Mars?  You are still confined to either a habitat or a space suit,  while you are there. 

There are foods that last decades,  most of which are frozen.  But you cannot use them unless you can do water-based free-surface cooking.  Which requires artificial gravity. 

GW


GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

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#5 2016-08-28 21:23:21

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
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Posts: 9,851

Re: Hawaii Space Exploration Analog and Simulation station

Duration is still out there for mission planning but there are other things that can be determined from doing these analog site tests...

This site has had 4 mission cycles from what I have found on there web site ... http://hi-seas.org/

Habitat size http://hi-seas.org/?p=1278

The geodesic dome is 36 feet in diameter , enclosing a volume of 13,570 cubic feet.  The ground floor has an area of 993 square feet (878 square feet usable) and includes common areas such as kitchen, dining, bathroom with shower, lab, exercise, and common spaces. The second floor loft spans an area of 424 square feet and includes six separate staterooms and a half bath. In addition, a 160 square foot workshop converted from a 20-foot high steel shipping container is attached to the habitat.

So we will not be landing in a geodesic dome for sure but we can use the volume to prove out once the sytems are placed within the volume to see how much of it is eaten up for a closed loop system for life support.

The sleeping quarters have been in other topics as seen for the floor layouts.

This crew was sized at 6 for its mission but is that the best number once we find the volume of the habitat lander is less that the analog trial locations are using.

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#6 2016-08-29 18:16:59

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
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Posts: 9,851

Re: Hawaii Space Exploration Analog and Simulation station

I have been searching for the life support values which are being used on this project but will post links that relate.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic … P_-h3etz5o

Salyut/Mir cosmonaut's daily requirement is about 0.8kg of oxygen, 0.7kg of solid food, 1.9kg of drinking water, 0.7kg of water for food preparation... In addition to that, about 2kg is available for personal hygiene and washing. 1kg of exhaled carbon dioxide and 1.3kg of water vapor will have to be removed per day. Each
crewmember also produces about 1.5kg of urine and 0.5kg of solid waste (incl.0.4kg of water). The total 'throughput' appears to be about 4-5kg going in [food,water,oxygen], 4-5kg going out [CO2,
water vapor,urine,body waste]. Oxygen recovery/regeneration: Electrolysis of urine using potassium hydroxide
(KOH) is used to produce hydrogen (11% by mass;vented into space) and oxygen for breathing.

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#7 2016-08-29 20:15:01

Tom Kalbfus
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Posts: 4,401

Re: Hawaii Space Exploration Analog and Simulation station

GW Johnson wrote:

So how does 1 year of isolation apply to a 2.5-3.3 year mission to Mars?  You are still confined to either a habitat or a space suit,  while you are there. 

There are foods that last decades,  most of which are frozen.  But you cannot use them unless you can do water-based free-surface cooking.  Which requires artificial gravity. 

GW

on Mars????

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#8 2016-08-30 17:54:22

GW Johnson
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From: McGregor, Texas USA
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Posts: 2,459
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Re: Hawaii Space Exploration Analog and Simulation station

No,  Tom,  you will need artificial gravity during the 9 month voyage there,  and the 9 month voyage home.  At the least.  Use your common sense.  Quit mis-reading what people write. 

That's 18 months total transit time compared to 13 months at Mars in the usual mission.  Any of those 13 months at Mars not spent on the surface are also spent in zero gee,  unless you spin up for artificial gravity.  Those 18 months in transit both ways are inherently zero gee,  unless you do spin gravity. 

That's a typical Hohmann transfer orbit mission,  which is the minimum propulsion energy required.  It can be shortened to 6 months one way in transit at the cost of significantly-more propulsion energy required.  You still have around a year at Mars or so,  either way.  And,  unless you base on the surface,  time spent in Mars orbit is also zero gee,  unless you spin up for artificial gravity. 

Plus,  there is nothing at all (!!!!) to suggest that 0.38 gee on the surface of Mars is therapeutic enough to overcome the microgravity disease accumulation from the 6 to 9 month voyage to Mars.  That means the crew is in terrible physical shape even before they embark on the 6-to-9 month voyage home.

For most mission designs,  there is a free return entry upon arrival at Earth.  This is a 12 to 15 gee reentry ride.  Even the mission designs postulating a recovery in LEO use the free return as an emergency bailout mode,  if arrival propulsion fails.  What that means is that your returning crew must be fit enough to tolerate a 12-15 gee ride for ~5 minutes,  no matter what design you choose!

Crew debilitated with microgravity disease are very unlikely to survive those ~5 minutes near 12-15 gee.  Which is why I keep saying that spin gravity is required for all missions beyond a very few months.  Essentially,  all missions beyond a very few months or so on the moon.

NASA still insists on denying this artificial gravity requirement,  at the top management levels.  Which is why I view most of their Mars mission proposals over the last few decades as utter nonsense,  completely exclusive of the half-trillion-$ costs their favored contractors insist will obtain.  (That cost thing is just egregiously-obvious giant corporate welfare state effects.)

That last sentiment (NASA's Mars mission plans = nonsense) is independent of the nonsense I think their SLS and Orion designs make.  Little of that hardware will ever be useful for anything but a moon shot,  and there are better designs,  even for a moon shot. 

GW

Last edited by GW Johnson (2016-08-30 18:03:13)


GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

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#9 2016-10-04 06:18:04

elderflower
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Registered: 2016-06-19
Posts: 400

Re: Hawaii Space Exploration Analog and Simulation station

Musk's recent presentation showed no consideration for artificial gravity, either. I don't see this as realistic. There is no point in shipping people to Mars if they are seriously incapacitated when they get there. Even with 38% g objects still have the same inertia as they would on earth.

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#10 2016-10-04 06:46:13

Mark Friedenbach
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From: Mountain View, CA
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Posts: 302

Re: Hawaii Space Exploration Analog and Simulation station

Add a zero-G treadmill or two. Problem solved. Experience with ISS shows that when actually used, astronauts can go six months without exposure to gravity and return to Earth gravity without significant loss of function, and recover nearly completely in a few days. Transition to 1/3 G should be easier.

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#11 2016-10-05 12:28:21

GW Johnson
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From: McGregor, Texas USA
Registered: 2011-12-04
Posts: 2,459
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Re: Hawaii Space Exploration Analog and Simulation station

Mark Friedenbach is quite correct.  A couple of decades results from ISS show that 6 months' zero-gee exposure is quite tolerable given vigorous exercise.  Musk's plan calls for 6 or fewer months' flight time one way.  It would seem from the two twin brothers that a year might be feasible with exercise,  but the recovery is much longer and more difficult.  Typical ride home from orbit peaks about 4 gees. 

Now,  no one knows whether long exposure to 0.38 gee on Mars (or 0.16 gee on the moon) is enough to be therapeutic,  meaning enough fitness to survive a really high speed reentry at Earth,  but an unspported gut feel says it is,  given enough exercise.  Free return from the moon was 11 gees in Apollo,  at about 11 km/s and a narrow,  shallow feasible angle window. 

Something similar but worse obtains for a free return from Mars,  at around 16-17 km/s.  I'd hazard the guess that's a 12-15 gee ride.  It's the emergency bailout mode for almost any conceivable Earth return scenario,  even those that are nominally braked into LEO. 

Fitness for high gee is crucial. 

GW


GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

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#12 2017-05-06 07:22:56

Dave_Duca
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From: Oconto, WI usa
Registered: 2017-03-15
Posts: 80

Re: Hawaii Space Exploration Analog and Simulation station

HI-SEAS
Have you thoroughly absorbed their "reality of awareness"? (IE - Full Description)

"Team Processes"  -  "Effectiveness"  -  "Stress Management"
"Resilience Training"  -  "Mental Block"  -  "Shared Social Behavior"
"Psychological Effects  -  "Team Building"

- James S. Martin Jr., re birthed as Zeus would, would seriously smite something.
    ( rest his soul )
- Kim Stanley Robinson would have no problems writing a new book titled:
     "Beyond Aurora - Return to the Planet of the Political Social Apes"
- Scott Adams would profit from another Comic Strip of Animal Husbandry in the Work Place.

The nasa peeples (spelled the way you see it) have "issues"
Intellectualization is not eight words (counting syllables).

Their description of the Habitat (as per April 29, 2013)....
"We will be providing more detailed information on the Hab,
including updated photos and the various systems,
as the crew settles in for the mission ahead."  [ seen today" May 6 2017 ]
OK... where is it?

Some of the most educated / collegiate minds, all happily certified by nasa to embark
into the dark world of isolationism (6 words).   I'm hoping Mensa wasn't onboard.

The "media coverage" of this outweighed the actual off-world experiments achieved.
This is pathetic - is this the best nasa can do?
Countless youtubes and facebook blah blah blahs of "their experience".

Where are the instruments to aid discovery?
They have an entire scientific arsenal of paid-for devices, and
they're armed with wi-fi work stations.
No one goes to another planet without the instruments of their trade.

This is me, pointing out what's missing. This is not a ranting post for derisive replies from others.

Ask yourselves - what would you do while on the surface of Mars?

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#13 2017-05-06 07:40:21

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 9,851

Re: Hawaii Space Exploration Analog and Simulation station

Dave_Duca wrote:

Ask yourselves - what would you do while on the surface of Mars?

Some would say science, others exploration, settlement/colonization, to prove that we can because its there to go survive, live and return home, of course then there is the corporate greed for what is there for a buck....while its a step outside of our earthly birth place outward to be more for man kind.

Your opening passage says why we are doing the analog station quite well...

Dave_Duca wrote:

HI-SEAS
Have you thoroughly absorbed their "reality of awareness"? (IE - Full Description)

"Team Processes"  -  "Effectiveness"  -  "Stress Management"
"Resilience Training"  -  "Mental Block"  -  "Shared Social Behavior"
"Psychological Effects  -  "Team Building"

There are more but there as site dependant with regards to the means moving forward once there, for developing independance from supply from earth that still need to be worked.

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#14 2017-05-06 08:43:34

Dave_Duca
Member
From: Oconto, WI usa
Registered: 2017-03-15
Posts: 80

Re: Hawaii Space Exploration Analog and Simulation station

nasa's Clever Social Media Exceeded the "What To Do" purpose on another world.

Our evolved species can not shake off the primeval instincts
of sexual fight-flight - as proven several times daily on our precious media.

If people are confined within spaces of "controlled control"... death will follow.

This has been a waste of time, just to re-discover psychological-isolationism.
Emphasis on" "re-discover"

Humans' better be better than Mark Watney and keep busy staying on mission.

Where's James S. Martin Jr. when we need him.
God, I miss him.

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#15 2017-05-06 20:56:35

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 9,851

Re: Hawaii Space Exploration Analog and Simulation station

The first post image shows how to defeat the confined space of controlled control which works on the surface of mars but not so much in transit....

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