Mars Novel - yes, I'm writing a book about Mars

Byron · 2003-03-03 09:04:46

Hello people,

I know it's been forever since I've posted on this board...I've kinda been taking a "Mars sabbatical"..lol. But I'm back, and will try to weigh in on some of these wonderful discussions going on right now on this board, although there is a great deal of pressure on my time these days..lol. But I promise to do my best...

Anyhow, I've been working on a SF novel, to be called "Red Frontier," and after completing my first and admittedly very rough first draft, I've taken a break so I can come back and begin writing my second draft with a fresh perspective. As the key to writing any successful novel is getting feedback from potential readers, I would like to enlist some of you here on this board in getting Red Frontier into something that might actually get published..lol..as I'm sure many of you will agree with me that we need more novels about Mars...

Before I "taint" your minds about what my story is about, I would like to start off by asking all of you what you liked best in SF novels you have read in the past that take place on Mars, and what you like and dislike about them, as well as what you all would like to see in future novels about Mars.

Here's a few questions to get you guys started: Would you like to see a novel written in the style of modern best-seller authors such as Ken Follet, where the emphasis is on the character in addition to the "idea" of the story? Or would you prefer the style of famous SF writers such as Larry Niven, KSR and Ben Bova? What kind of plot would like to see in a novel about Mars? (Such as the efforts of early pioneers vs a bit later down the line when a human-inhabited Mars "comes of age".) What kind of characters would you enjoy reading about? Would you like to read about terraforming, wars, revolution, power plays and romance?

I'll leave it at that for now...and any feedback at all will be highly welcomed. All writers get "stuck" from time to time, and in my case, some idea of what some of you would enjoy reading about will be a tremedous help in getting the ball rolling for my second draft of my novel.

B

clark · 2003-03-03 10:28:44

The problem with stories is that they tend to have a life of their own.

We should be asking you questions, not the other way around.

So in that vein:

When you think about your story, do you see it as an overall idea, or are you more connected through the particular experiences of characters within?

The idea of Mars, or the idea of living in Mars?

Are you thinking Epic, ala KSR triology, in which you trace the entire sweeping adventure from blast off to whatever the future may be; or are you more interested in getting to the actual "problem" that needs to be resolved by the characters?

Getting to Mars and making it, or just making it on Mars?

KSR succeeded in that he provided a little bit for everyone- somewhere in there, in each of the books, is a piece of Mars that we each individually want to imagine- however, the drawback is that we have to wade through the parts we are less interested in- we end up slogging through the mundane characters situations to get to the really rewarding characters- like Sax.

Here is a suggestion to help, start in the future with a fully established Martian colony with an actual identity. Progress the story from this "future date" and tie in the current "problem" with events in the past. The decisions made in the past will show the wisdom, and the folly of today.

The reader is thus presented with a world they don't quite understand when they first begin the story- why the characters interact with one another- the significance of everything only unfolds through the revelation of the past- think of it like a myystery that slowly gets unravelled.

An example of such a situation could be like this:

The characters are about to begin on a multi-generational terraforming project of Mars. As the story begins, the reader gets a sense of peace and prosperity on mars, an idellic setting for the future of man. There is much hope for what lays in store with this "great event" of global engineering.

THEN: A huge explosion as the main terraforming facillity is blown up. Enter the "problem".

You can introduce your main characters in that you have a villian (which can be slowly revealed throughout the story) blowing up the facillity- what are their motivations, what are their goals? What makes them take such steps?

Then you have your hero/heroine, etc. who solve the problem and set the balance to the story.

as the story unfolds, the reader gains more insight into how we got to the point of a villian wanting to blow up the facility. We find out why the hero's want to terraform, what the opposing goals on Mars are, and how they are managed and ultimetly reconciled.

That in a nutshell is EVERY story about mars.

Please note that the terraforming idea was merely a tool to clarify what i am discussing.

You alreAdy have the idea you want to use Byron, so focus on making the characters real.

Interesting characters can make a boring situation interesting. Boring characters in interesting situations are still boring.

Byron · 2003-03-03 11:12:20

I like what you said about you guys should be the ones asking me the questions But I had to get this thread started somehow...lol.

First off, let me say, in a nutshell, you really brought out the essence of what I'm attempting to do in my novel, and *fortuntately*, I think I might at least be on the right track with the things you mentioned, such as starting out with a "mature" settlement, and the characters dealing with the decisions of the past in conjunction with the events of the present.

In my first draft, I pretty much stayed away from flashbacks, etc, as I was concentrating on the basic story line for my draft, but as you hinted at, it'll be necessary for me to include a bit of backstory so that the reader can better relate to the characters and the things that are taking place in the "present."

I promise to reveal a bit more of what my story is about, but I'd like to hear a few more questions/comments before doing so.

Thanks, Clark, for your prompt and thoughtful reply...

B

clark · 2003-03-03 11:28:58

I think I might at least be on the right track with the things you mentioned, such as starting out with a "mature" settlement, and the characters dealing with the decisions of the past in conjunction with the events of the present.

Okay, I'll play.

Are the characters the original settlers of Mars, or are they decendents/new arrivals? Which generation are they? This will affect their perception of Mars, their understanding of Earth and its influence, and what "baggage" they carry with them.

What are their fears? What are their loves? Are they really afraid of ONE boogey man, or do they see danger in everything?

Do the current characters have, or did any of them have, any influence over the decisions made int he past? What is the relationships between those who have made the decisions/help create the current situation, and those who must solve/live in the result of those previous actions?

What do the characters want? What is their ideal goal? What would make them really happy, and why don't they have it?

Using flashbacks can be problamatic, but there are numerous ways to convey them a story without falling back on the more cliche methods. Soemthing you may wish to consider is the addition of a "new comer to mars" character- this character serves as a vehicle to explain the bits of the world you are creating to the reader- the newbie dosen't know how everythign works, or why it works- so this allows you to pose questions within your story without breaking persepective or flow.

Perhaps a 'Terran reporter' or some other- it really depends on the story itself.

A suggestion is to really focus on your main "problem"- this wil define your overall arc. What is the really big issue you want resolved, or how do you want this to play out? Then, you complicate this overall problem, like terraforming, with secondary problems such as love interests, processing plants failing, space station falling out of the sky, etc.

You'll want to more than likely want to threaten your characters with the deprivation of basic neccessities: air, water, food, power, etc. This will add the "thrill" element and give yor characters something to do while they are solving problems and setting the world back to right- think Hercules deeds of redemption here.

What are you having problems with?

Phobos · 2003-03-03 12:26:50

Go Byron! There seems to be a lot of renewed interest about Mars lately so I definately think this would be a good time to write your novel and get it out there. I don't really read much sci-fi, so I don't really have any comparisons to offer, a fact which will make your book that much better to read after I bring it home from the bookstore. I once banged around the idea of writing a short story about the first manned mission to Earth from Mars. In my story all life on Earth is fried from the radiation emitted by a nearby super nova while the Martians, who were naturally protected because they lived deep underground, survived the incident and emerged several generations later to get embroiled in a big debate over the merits of going to Earth. Of course most of the Martians think spaceflight is a dumb idea and that money should obviously not be spent on such a stupid and foolish idea as going to Earth since there's obviously no benefits to be had from such a crazy expedition. It was something of a spoof on modern day attitudes since native Martians probably wouldn't find Earth a comfortable place and not meant to be technically accurate to the nth degree (said to protect my a$$ from Clark!) I wish you luck on your endeavour and I'll definatey buy it when it comes out.

Shaun Barrett · 2003-03-03 18:50:14

I'm with Phobos! I will certainly buy this book when it comes out.
I can't hope to match the useful and very intelligent comments Clark has made - I wonder if he's ever considered a career in teaching literature?

For me, the political stuff in KSR's trilogy became a little overwhelming and the complexities of so many characters and their interactions over such a long period of time became hard work to keep up with! But then, I'm a very simple soul (Hey!! .. I heard that! )

Depending on what your basic framework entails, what about evidence of past life in the form of fossils? What about discoveries showing the extent of past oceans, river systems, etc.? Would such things, together with other marvels of Martian geology, be suitable as a backdrop - to give it more of that feeling of wonder and discovery that many Mars novels seem to lack? You know - more of the 'crunching along an ancient sandy ledge which echoed once to the sound of slowly falling, curling, salty waves .. a beach where sea spray drifted in a balmy carbon dioxide breeze.'
To my way of thinking, Mars has so much to offer in its own right that gumming up the works with endless politics, which you can get a belly-full of right here on Earth (! ), is not really necessary.
And, while characterisation is a good thing, for obvious reasons, my view is that too many well-developed characters can also become overwhelming. I think Arthur C. Clarke strikes a nice balance in this regard - allowing you to relate to one or two or three main characters, with the others there mainly as background.

Just some thoughts!

Palomar · 2003-03-04 08:15:04

Byron: Anyhow, I've been working on a SF novel, to be called "Red Frontier,"

*Oh goodie! More to say later.

--Cindy

Byron · 2003-03-04 09:03:37

What are you having problems with?

Well, writing a novel is quite a challenge...and this is my first go at it..lol, but I will have to say, clark, the questions you have raised are remarkably similar to the questions I asked myself when I began developing "Red Frontier"...you ought to be writing a novel yourself... :;):

Anyhow, for the benefit of you and the others on here, I'm going to give a basic outline of what my story is about, based on my first draft I've already written. There are things I do and don't like about it, but, certainly, some changes will be made in my rewrite of the book, and any feedback from my *future readers* is highly welcomed, and will be a big help in my goal of getting this thing published and into the bookstores.

So here goes:

Red Frontier is set sometime in the 22nd century, on Mars, 75-100 years after the first landing of humans on Mars. The novel is basically written from the viewpoint of three major characters (2 female, 1 male), in a braided story format. One of the characters (Kyria) is a full-blown Martain native, the other female character (Gina, owner of the all-powerful Ares Corp) is a long-time resident of Mars, and the novel's "protagonist" (if that's the proper term) is a fresh immigrant from Earth who is unwittingly swept up in a sequence of world-changing events as he becomes personally involved (more on that later) with the two female characters.

The basic plotline is as follows: Kyria, the Martian "native" lives in a beautiful domed city called Cliffside built a generation previously in an effort to create an utopian society on a whole new world. At the time of the book, it has over 100,000 residents, the largest single population center on Mars. But of course, all is not well in Cliffside, as well as the other major "urban" center on Mars, referred to as the Twin Cities (of which Gina is the head honcho.) Kyria, like most members of her generation, is chafting at the strictures of the tightly controlled society she is a part of, and she launches a protest movement called the "True Reds" in an effort to win more freedom and economic parity with the so-called "Founders" who basically control all the wealth and power in her community. So that's basically Problem #1, which is the result of having a generation of children on Mars who didn't "choose" to live there (and are basically trapped in their enclosed little world), and therefore feel betrayed by their elders.

Enter Problem #2 - At the "current" time, Mars is experiencing economic upheaval due to the collapse of the export-driven economy. In the "past", the various governments of Earth helped colonize Mars with the primary goal of mining scarce metals for a resource-hungry Earth, with the end result of two major industrial centers that have flooded Earth with more metals than they can use. Gina Silverstone, who is the head of the tremedously powerful Ares Corp, realizes that Mars is doomed unless immediate steps are taken to begin the terraformation of Mars, which in turn would free it from economic dependence upon Earth. She embarks on a top-secret program to harness the nearly unlimted power of antimatter rockets in order to capture a comet and send it into the southern polar ice cap, which she thinks will throw the "switch" in making Mars a much kinder place to live. Meanwhile, she is attempting to join forces with the leader of Mariner Free State (where Cliffside is located) in an effort to unify Mars behind her efforts to make it a more viable place for humans.

She doesn't get very far, as the Earth-imposed enbargo on Martian exports is throwing Mariner Free State into disarray, and the President of MFS basically turns his back on Gina's efforts to work with him to gain economic independence from Earth, at which point Gina decides to proceed with her program of crashing the comet into Mars anyway, as she thinks the people of Mars will have no choice but to accept the inevitable, which is to make Mars a more human-friendly place to live.

From the viewpoint of Kyria and her peers, however, terraforming is not even on the radar, as she is caught up in her fight against what she sees as the wholesale repression of her generation as the Mars-wide economic crisis hits Cliffside like a sudden storm. To her and the rest of the True Reds, the leadership of Mariner Free State is the enemy.

Enter Problem #3: Enter Josh, who is highly dissatisfied with his life on Earth, and wants to start over on Mars. With a bit of luck, he secures an immigration berth to Mars (this takes place before Earth imposes their enbargo of Martian imports.) Josh has had a connection with Kyria on Mars due to a years-long interplantary pen-pal relationship when he was in his teenage years, and now that he is coming to Mars, he re-establishes contact with her, which gives him something to look forward to once he arrives on Mars. But by the time he arrives on Mars, the planet is in upheaval, and people are now scrambling to return back to Earth. *But*, in the meantime, Gina Silverstone is currently attempting to subvert the ongoing protest movement in Cliffside, but she needs someone on the "inside" to learn about what Kyria is really up to, and to determine if she could eventually harness the youth of Cliffside in her efforts to eventually terraform Mars. Her spyware discovers that messages are being sent back and forth on the inbound ship from Earth between a certain passenger and Kyria in Cliffside. She gets a bright idea in her head, and decides to "intercept" Josh immediately upon his arrival on Mars.

Josh, of course, is at total mercy of the deteriorating economic situation when he makes landing on Mars, but is filled with unending gratitude when this beautiful and immensely wealthy woman singles him out for a "special assignment," which is to do what he wanted to do anyhow, which is go to Cliffside on her behalf and finally meet Kyria in person. Josh buys into her "scheme" without hesitation, as he really doesn't have any other choice. From that point forward, he gets caught up in the webs of love triangles and the rapidly unfolding upheaval that is taking place at this time through out Mars.

Rather than outlining the rest of the story (I promise to reveal more detail in response to your questions, etc...again, there are some aspects of the story I'm still uncertain of, so please, hand me whatever questions and comments you can think of ), I would like to mention that my primary goal of this book is make it a fun and adventuresome read. I want the reader to be able to experience Mars from the viewpoints of the different characters, and there will be plenty of action along the way to make things exciting and to keep those pages turning...lol.

Again, I thank you for your input in this...

B

clark · 2003-03-04 11:27:47

Good start Byron, here are some thoughts:

Your three main characters represent different aspects of your story, as I see it:

You have Kyria, the Martian native. She represents the future of mars, or at least one version of it. She is like many in her generation, independent and questioning the ways of the Old natives. To the children of her generation, there is a yearning to define themselves, and mars, in their own terms, which differ, and in the older generations view, dangerously so. Kyria represents the tension and fractures that exist in the so-called virtual utopia of Mars.

Gina's character represents the old guard of Mars. She is also the one who pulls all the strings on mars, if not anywhere she happens to be. Think of her as always being one or two steps ahead of everyone at all times- that's how she got where she is (leader of the dome) and how she maintains her power. While she plays the villian, you want the reader to understand her actions. She is motivated out of a quest for personal power, but she does so because she firmly believes she is the only one capable of holding things together. The normal rules of right and wrong don't apply to her, at least in her view, because the stakes she is playing for (protecting her version of Mars, and those who agree) are so high. She is the leader because she is afraid of the inability of anyone else to accomplish what she is doing. She has a personal belief in her own moral and intellectual superiority. This leads to her fatal flaw, she underestimates Kyria/Josh, which allow them to turn the tide at the last moment.

Josh represents the unknown and new element that is being introduced to Mars. Who he sides with, and how he proceeds will determine the outcome between the struggle of Earth versus Mars, and New Mars versus Old Mars. He is the lynchpin on which your overall story arc is developed. How you develop this character will determine your story, and define the relationships of all characters. His goal is to meet his own personal goals, while helping to right the world, which leads him towards his own personal goal. He ends up getting involved in this Martian drama largely by events outside of his control- he is the character that starts with the least amount of control, yet ends up calling the shots by the end by virtual stint of being the "right person at the right time."

Now, character dynamics:

I like the direction you are going, but let me offer some ideas:

Gina is the power player who pulls the strings, so play that up. Gina selects Josh to come to Mars because he happens to fit into a scheme she has devised to deal with Earth. Josh thinks he is coming to mars for his own reasons, or other reasons- the truth is that this is all part of Gina's plan (think Great Expectations, except more self serving).

Josh comes to Mars, and befriends Kyria.

Gina takes Josh further under her wing, setting him up and using him to help undermine the New Mars movement. Kyria and Josh's relationship develop, and as their interest grows (think big kiss scene), Kyria discovers that Josh is working for Gina, and Josh discovers that Kyria is part of the New Mars movement.
Josh makes a decision on what he wants to do, sides are taken, etc.

Some side thoughts:

I like the ice meteor idea, and you should play on the character of Gina going ahead with unilaterally plunging the rock into mars- you could set it up so that Gina isn't sure it will work, but she is confident in herself, so she does it anyway- have it work, only to have unintended consequences- say a flood wipes out a habitat. (We then get to see Gina's smug self satisfaction, and then her ability to rationalize and deal with failures and miscalculations).

Kyria, and native martians should be alien- what is important, and they see a situation should be starkly different between Kyria and Josh, this also allows you to highlight those instances and ideas that ARE universal between the different worlds.

The Old Mars generation should be painted as a fa?ade of beauty, who's interior is dark. There are problems that many of the older generation avoid, or ignore, or blindly accept to maintain the status quo.

The overall story then becomes one of Gina personal plot (Old Mars in her vision) being foiled by a piece of her own plot (using Josh to deal with Earth), all helped along by the two people who she underestimated (Josh/Kyria).

Just some rough ideas, take them as you want, thoughts?

Byron · 2003-03-04 14:52:24

Some very interesting thoughts, clark...I've spent a great deal of time learning how novels are written, how characters are developed, etc, and the things you are saying are right on the nose with many of the things I'm attempting to accomplish with my novel

Some further explaination so you'll have a better idea of what I've written so far in my first draft:

The human-inhabited Mars of my book basically consists of two major population centers, the Cliffside I mentioned before, and two closly-spaced cities located about 2000 km to the north of Cliffside in the Kasei Valley where Sharonov Crater is located. One is called First Landing (the 'original' city of Mars) and the other is Sharonov City, which is basically a glorified mining town. Ares Corp pretty much runs the show in both of these towns, and Gina is able to keep things under control there by paying the furloughed miners although they are no longer working (playing the part of a benevolent capitalist). Cliffside is part of another entity altogether, hence the Mariner Free State I referred to in my previous post. Mariner has its own 'democratic' government, of which the head of state is a man by the name of President Konnarock. He is definately part of the "Old Guard" of Mars, and he vigorously rebuffs Silverstone's early attempts to work together in modulating Martian exports so that the commodity markets on Earth do not collapse. Instead, he attempts to mitigate the growing economic crisis effecting his community by drawing down from huge stockpiles and sending them up the mass driver. This, of course, causes Earth to say "No" to further exports from Mars, and the real crisis hits both Ares Corp and Mariner Free State equally hard.

It is at this point (a few chapters into the novel) when Silverstone takes on the perogative to capture a newly discovered comet which is about to pass near Mars anyway, and use her just-developed fleet of giant antimatter rockets to divert it into the southern ice cap. Although she is single-handily undertaking the initative to carry out this incredible feat of planetary engineering, she realizes that she needs to get the youth of Mars, namely the swelling generation of youth in the city of Cliffside, on board with her dramatic plan to terraform Mars within the span of a single lifetime. It is at this point, as Josh is about to land on Mars, that she seeks to find a way to get on the "inside" with the growing youth movement, of which Kyria is the leader.

Josh, on the other hand, has a feeling that he has a "destiny" to fulfill on Mars (which is the primary reason he seeks to go there in the first place). However, he has not a clue what that may be, and even after he lands on Mars, he is contantly faced with feelings of personal inadequacy and events taking place totally beyond his control, although he is the "pivot point" between the major players of the novel (in the right place at the right time scenario).

As far as Kyria is concerned, Gina Silverstone is not the enemy, President Konnarock is. Konnarock sees Gina as the enemy, and is quite successful in keeping her hands out of the affairs of his community in the early going. So the real battle lines are drawn between the Old Guard (the Founders) of Cliffside and the "True Red" natives, while Gina is seeking to take avantage of this intergenerational "revolution" to seize the power she seeks. Everyone is clueless to Gina's shenigans except for Josh, who is made privy to Gina's secret plans to smash the comet into Mars (which is set to take place some weeks / months in the future), as she attempts to keep Josh for herself after his romantic encounter with Kyria in Cliffside (she falls in love with him, after all). He initially buys into her plan to terraform the planet, as she takes the time to show him around different parts of Mars, the dried up river beds and ancient seas, etc, and how vital it is that efforts be made to terraform Mars in order to preserve humans-on-Mars into the future. However, he eventually comes to the conclusion that his true love lies with Kyria, and that Gina is really attempting to take advantage of the growing chaos in Cliffside to essentially take Mars for herself, beginning with the comet impact. At this point, Josh realizes that he must get back with Kyria again and convince her that her real enemy is Gina, as opposed to President Konnarock, which basically leads to the conclusion of the novel.

Now that I've revealed a bit more of what this book is essentially about, hopefully this will give you guys more to chew on, comment upon, etc.

B

clark · 2003-03-04 16:02:32

Byron, the more you reveal, the better it becomes...

Now you are introducing some new characters, and some new places, so please bare with me.

There are three cities, correct? Cliffside, part of Mariner Democracy (isn't it the only city in the Mariner Democracy?); First Landing, and Shranov City (which are actually almost the same city).

So you have the Martian Democratic State, run by Konnarack; and the privately funded and run Sharnov City, helmed by Gina. Correct?

If this is the case, then an obvious avenue to explore is the relationship between Konnarack and Gina. Might I suggest that (I believe you hint at this relationship) Gina's overall plan is to be the supreme leader of Mars (ah, ambition). The reason for this desire is expressed in the previous post, and hear plan to destabilize an asteroid is part and parcel of this plan. Gina is hoping to enlist the help of Josh to get the New Martians to be the patsy for the asteroid hitting Mars. This way, she can move terraformation efforts forward (a privately held goal) and be the one to bring the "criminals" to justice (Gina just happens to know who was involved with the asteroid) so she can then set herself up as President of Mars.

This all came to a head with the growing economic problems between Mars and Earth. Gina, as leader of Ares Corp (of which, she is primary controller) she wants more control over her companies future, and the future of Mars itself. Pretty consistent character if I do say so myself.

Now, you have opportubnites to turn to some classic plot devices: Josh, having to choose between love and ideals (Does he help cover up New Mars, ensuring his love interest with Kyria, or does his report them as terroists to his new Martian home?); Is Gina really in love with Josh, or is it merely part of another plan? Josh having to rely on his own judgement, as the views of everyone else become suspect by their own personal agendas.

In my opinion, I might suggest that Kyria and Josh meet by accident- she gets assigned to him to show him the ropes (think Vet Detective and Rookie cop). This allows for the "unexpected" element that Gina did not account for, or just an example of how Gina siezes upon opportunity- or creates it from thin air (Gina dosen't know Kyria is in the New Mars movement) You might want there to be a lack of chemistry at the begining (just some basic antagonism as Kyria takes out her frustration on Josh as he remarks in wonder at the world she grows up in) - i.e. differening persepctives.

I think this would be more consistent with the characters since the newer martians would feel the older martians are more Terran than they should be, so an actual terran is going further down the scale (this also allows for the opportunity for Josh to prove these viewpoints ignorant or wrong)

I think I need more information on Konarrak though, as he seems to be only a catalyst and then a prop for the rest of the story.

Perhaps this is a bit premature, but Josh's destiny might be to be the third choice for leading Mars (Gina vs. Konarrak). That would be a nice little arc- Josh, from humble beginnings, used as a pawn for others designs, becomes King of what he was supposed to tear assunder.

Just one road among many....

clark · 2003-03-04 16:15:13

Some very interesting thoughts, clark...I've spent a great deal of time learning how novels are written, how characters are developed, etc, and the things you are saying are right on the nose with many of the things I'm attempting to accomplish with my novel

I'm not sure if you have done this yet, but you may wish to later on... develop a timeline.

Not just for your story, although it is paramount that you do, but for the 75-100 years prior to your story.

Try to flesh out as much of this as you can, put them all in pencil, and only change them when it becomes neccessary for your story- oterwise, use the timeline to help shape those portions of your story that revolve around the recent martian past not covered by your actual book.

What year did they land,and where? What was the situation on Earth at the time of landing, how did things change?

What was the build-up of Mars, how did it progress?
What were the major Terran events that helped shape the development of the Mars of Today?

When was the Martian calander adopted?

When were the first births?

First deaths?

When did the Presdient of Mars happen, etc.?

The hardest part for me is always the skeleton related aspects of writing- you have to sit there and go around in circles, over and over again, to see if you missed anything.

Hope it helps.

Shaun Barrett · 2003-03-04 18:01:46

I think Dicktice and I are pretty much in the same camp on the question of Mars novels.
It seems our ideas are more simplistic (I hesitate to use that word for obvious reasons - no offence intended, Dicktice) and less concerned with big corporations, big economics, and big politics. I think we're more into the day-to-day experiences of some of the first explorers.

For myself, I'm out of my depth on this one and withdraw from the discussion.
I'm still looking forward to the publication of this book, though. I'm hoping there'll be enough of 'the basics' in it to help me through all the politics and stuff! :;):

Byron, may your writing talents blossom until KSR, Greg Bear, Ben Bova et al. start looking over their shoulders with looks of grim concern in their eyes!

Byron · 2003-03-05 06:45:37

Hey Shaun, I can see exactly where you're coming frm with your view of what a Mars novel should be, i.e., the characters experiencing the subtle and not-so-subtle wonders of the Red Planet, and indeed, I'm striving to include as much as this as possible, like when Josh gets to travel around Mars by way of dirigible and rover...I just haven't mentioned it yet

One thing to consider about which type of novels typically get published (and become best sellers :;): ) is that they tend to have a common thread of things such as big corporations, big economics, and big politics, as well as "big" romance..lol, not to mention intrigue, action sequences and the like...all of which I'm *attempting* to work into Red Frontier. It is my hope and dream that this book would be able to reach a wider audience than the "typical" SL novel...so that people who haven't given a second thought about Mars will pick this up and have a good read, as it will have the typical "big novel" elements I just mentioned, but at the same time, it is my goal to work in enough description / wonder of what Mars has to offer so that these readers will end up realizing how much of a wonderful and dynamic planet Mars truly is...

It's a tall order for myself, I know, but what's life without challenge?

B

P.S., Clark, I'll get back to your questions a bit later, I want to flip through my draft before I get back to you...

Byron · 2003-03-05 12:11:35

As clark has suggested, I will need to develop a comprehensive time line extending 75-100 years prior to when the events of my book takes place, even if I don't relate to it directly. To answer your question, ..umm, that still needs a bit more work, as what I've written so far is pretty vague when it comes to Earth in relation to my novel...lol.

What I have in mind, however, is that the nations of Earth have aligned themselves into blocs, similar to the trading blocs we have today...i.e., the North American Bloc, Latin America, the E.U., etc. Do you think this would make sense, based on what is happening in the world today?

B

clark · 2003-03-05 12:30:39

You might be able to avoid the nationalistic issues altogether if you focus on the Earth Body that the Mars Body has to deal with.

So there can be all the nation states, or trading blocs, whatever- that is the domestic side of earth politics. What you might be able to do is simply create the World Body of Interstellar trade.

Make it a powerful ogranization on earth that can dictate the terms of economic growth (to which all the nation states are vying for control over) by opening and closing the interstellar trade spigot.

This might fit into your current storyline.

So while the World Body of Interstellar trade is not powerful in the classic sense, it is powerful in that it "pulls the strings" of the nations with the classic power.

This also helps to develop some further overarching themes for your story.

Now, you would have your President Konnerik (sorry for the misspell), a string puller on Earth, facing off with his Martian version, Gina. You could even have Konnerik trying to mainpulate Josh prior to going to mars, and after getting there. So now you have more of the "Gods playing their games with mortal players" (ie Josh). This provides opportunites to indtroduce Kyria as a new element to Josh, and allows him the opportunity to choose another way (as opposed to Konnerik or Gina).

This alloows for the tension between Gina and Kyria as they battle over Josh, and ultimetly, each other. Konnerik and Gina allow for the same tension played over Josh and his role in their own particular plans.

And Josh becomes the mover of your story, he is what all plans hinge on, it is his decisions in a situation where he has little control, that will determine the fate of Mars, Earth, and his own destiny.

This also allows you to explore Josh's character (which is really the disembodied readers character)- old loyalties versus new ones (Duty to Earth, or to his new Martian Home; and Helping his mentor (gina) or helping his possible new love (kyria)

Just some thoughts...

dicktice · 2003-03-05 13:18:47

Byron: I hate to bring up Africa, but by the time of your story, that continent is bound to be a block in itself, perhaps--if the U.N. has succeeded as originally conceived and is policing the Home Planet-- population is slowly decreasing, due to--not only, but to a great extent-- education and communications. And mustn't forget China, which by then should be well along to populating the Moon, which along with its immigrants from the other nations of Earth, would represent still another block! Venus, at least, won't be a complication--right?

Byron · 2003-03-05 15:27:45

One thing I quickly discovered when I began writing this novel is that writing a book is similar to drafting a budget with a limited amount of money. The number of pages in a typical novel is limited to a "reasonable" number of pages, perhaps no more than 400-450 pages, especially for a first-time novelist. If I spend the first 50 pages or so describing world history up to the point when Josh immigrates to Mars, that would crimp the rest of the book...lol.

Since this book is about Mars as opposed to Earth, I think it's prudent to give short shrift to whatever is happening on Earth, the Moon, or whatever. Every good story needs to have a tight focus, and while I recognize the need to create a "future history" to lend strength to my novel, I see it rather pointless to delve into how China managed to re-spark humanity's interest in space, how the Africans are seeking to harvest rare metals on the Moon, ad nauseam. Let the reader figure all that out on their own...

See where I'm coming from with this? :;):

B

Byron · 2003-03-06 09:07:04

Clark, to continue the discussion of my novel...(your thoughts and comments are a tremendous help in getting the ball rolling on my re-write - I really appreciate your help on all this...)

To answer your question about Gina Silverstone...she is the head honcho of the Twin Cities, which is basically an extention of the corp that she's the CEO of (and "governed" by the weak-kneed International Space Agency, which is why she basically holds all the cards for that part of Mars.) Gina, of course, is extremely ambitious, and has a lifetime goal of terraforming Mars, which would catapult her to a position of unassailable power, that is, if she is able to do things on her terms.

In the early going, however, Gina is merely attempting to take "baby steps" to unify the two major population centers of Mars - the Twin Cities, which she already has under her belt, and the decidedly isolationist Mariner Free State, which basically consists of the colossal domed city of Cliffside and a few outlying settlements. She enters into negotiations with Konnarock in order to coordinate their exports to Earth so that the commodity markets don't collaspe altogether, but Konnarock is feeling quite a bit of pressure from within his own community (namely the burgening youth movement that Kyria is the leader of.) Rather than reducing his exports (taking an economic hit now to ensure long term stability like Gina wants), Konnarock rebuffs Gina's suggestions, and he takes the opposite track, which is to redouble his exports for short-term gain, long-term consequences be dammed.

Gina is faced with a roadblock in her plan to unify Mars at this point, as Mariner is even more isolationist than ever, and Konnarock's actions lead to the embargo due to his misguided attempts to export his way out of trouble, which of course, takes a dramatic toll on all of Mars. (As far as Earth is concerned, Mars is just a sleepy backwater, a formerly ambitious experiement in space colonization that no longer holds the interest of Earth, hence Earth's dismissive attitude towards the people of Mars)

It is at this point that the various plot elements of the novel start to come together: A comet is discovered, whose orbit will take it reasonably close to Mars in a few months, while at the same time, Gina's top-secret antimatter fleet reaches completion. She puts two and two together and decides to embark on an accellerated plan to jump-start the terraforming of Mars by using the rocket fleet to capture it and slam it into Mars. Earth has turned its back on Mars, Cliffside is a clam that has sealed shut, and Gina has the firm belief that her plan is the only way to ensure the long-term viability of Mars. She knows that slamming the comet into Mars is just a start...if Mars is to be terraformed, she will need to have both the Twin Cities and Mariner Free State under her belt, working towards her goal of transforming Mars.

But how to get the people of Cliffside on her side? She knows that she can't take it by force...Konnarock is a Neaderthal that can't see reason even if its put under his nose, and she has no allies on Earth help her in her cause. Enter Kyria and her snowballing movement, which, by the time of the Earth embargo, threatens the existing social order of Cliffside. She realizes that if the True Red (new Mars) revolution succeeds, it would open the door for her to come in and use the people of Cliffside to her advantage. But she knows she has to be sneaky about it, as the current leadership of Mariner is already extremely paranoid...any attempt to undermine the current power structure will fail unless its carried out in an extremly subtle manner.

This is where Josh comes into the picture. Josh is on Earth, unhappy as hell, as his wife has left him, he is unemployed, and therefore applies to Mars Immigration in an (abeit misguided) effort to leave his problems behind and start over someplace new. Josh does have a connection with someone on Mars, which is *Kyria*, who he had corresponded with in an interplantary pen-pal exchange program while he was a teenager. He uses her as a "reference" in his application, hoping it will improve his chances of gaining a berth on a ship headed to Mars, although he's been out of touch with her for years. -Meanwhile- Gina, sitting in her opulent office, brainstorming for ways to get on the "inside" with Kyria and her movement, happens to come across Josh's application to immigrate to Mars, which has Kyria's name in it, of course. This is when she gets the bright idea of using him as a tool to break into the "inner sanctum" so to speak...as who's going to suspect a humble, fresh-faced immigrant from Earth? She makes sure Josh's app gets approved, and in short order, he's on his way to Mars.

Josh arrives on Mars, is immediately given the "red carpet" treatment by Gina herself, she convinces him that the youth of Mars must be convinced that terraforming is the only way to go, and that it's up to him to sell Kyria, who he has gotten back in touch with by this point, on the idea, but do it in a subtle fashion, of course. Josh, despite being overwhelmed by all this, buys into Gina's scheme hook, line and sinker, as what else is he going to do? Besides, this means he gets to see the person he could only dream of seeing years before, he gets to see Mars like few people ever do, and Josh truly believes Gina in that Mars must be terraformed in order for it to be saved (although he knows nothing about the comet at this point).

Meanwhile, Konnarock is increasingly pressured by the debilitating embargo and the vigorous protests of the True Red movement, and Gina takes advantage of this by offering Konnarock "assistance" in exhange for concessions on the True Red movement, as she really doesn't want to see them get crushed, as that will spoil her plans to gain power over Cliffside and the rest of Mars. This is Gina at her finest: she's getting ready to slam a comet into Mars, she's playing a high-stakes game of intrigue with the leader of Cliffside, and she's using Josh a pawn in order to get them to come to her side, as Kyria sees Konnarock as the enemy, not Gina...so she knows that if she plays her cards right, she can portray herself as the "knight in shining armor" that will led the True Reds down the road to a new Mars and a bright future.

While Gina is doing all of this, Josh gets to travel to Cliffside via a very roundabout route in a dirigible as an "employee" of a scientific research team. (This is a way for the reader to "experience" Mars firsthand...I hope you're reading this, Shaun... ) However, when he gets there, something totally unexpected happens....he and Kyria fall in love (the big "kiss scene"..lol.) Eventually, Josh is forced to decide between Kyria and Gina, whether to expose the whole thing once he realizes what Gina is really up to, etc, etc.

I hope this makes things a bit more clear...please ask questions, make comments, etc....as nearly all of this is still open to change...

B

Byron · 2003-03-06 11:36:38

Byron: If you left out the "kissing" scene (ugh), you'd be able to fit a "Chinese Moon colony" scene.... Just trying to help, dontchaknow.

You do ya mean, "ugh"??

What's a novel if it doesn't have romance? ???

B

clark · 2003-03-06 13:14:14

Some questions:

Why does Gina need to terraform Mars to achieve "unassailable powers"? Terraforming Mars is her secret agenda, why? How does that consolidate her power?
Why is she developing anti-matter rockets in secret? Who is she hiding it from exactly? What are her original intentions for building them? I ask this becuase it seems that the asteroid nearing Mars oribit is an accidental discovery, which Gina capitallizes on. Nothing wrong there, but you will need to establish why she has been developing these rockets in secret.

What is the relationship between Cliffside and the Twin Cities? Are they competing mining outfits? How exactly is it that Konnerik can set his own export quota, yet have no concern for what Gina (who ostenibly represents 50% of the mining capability on Mars) is doing? Why dosen't he, or why can't he work with Gina? (An idea, Konnerik thinks Gina is trying to set him up to lose power by trying to get him to cut back on exports, have him think it is some scam because Earth plays him against her (remember, earth is suffering becuase of too much exports, so they want one of them to fail)- this upsets Gina's plans becuase that was her idea, so it forces her to have to rethink and adjust- she no longer has the time to take baby steps)

A suggestion (just a thought), you may wish to not make Kyria the leader of the revolution. Her and Josh are your action hero's- leaders tend to send other people to do jobs, not take the jobs on personaly. Make her an idealist within the cause, and create a secondary revolutionary character that can be killed off by Gina or Konnerik- this allows you to have Josh sell out the leader, and then act to redeem himself when he figures out whose side he is on later on. This also allows you to complicate Kyria's and Josh's relationship, and build a relationship with Gina (she is going to need proof that Josh is onboard with her plans, so he has to do a deed for the devil)

Then you could have Kyria BECOME the leader of the revolution- which she is not entirely comfortable with becuase she starts to see the conflicts between ideology and application of her beliefs.

Gina is faced with a roadblock in her plan to unify Mars at this point, as Mariner is even more isolationist than ever, and Konnarock's actions lead to the embargo due to his misguided attempts to export his way out of trouble, which of course, takes a dramatic toll on all of Mars. (As far as Earth is concerned, Mars is just a sleepy backwater, a formerly ambitious experiement in space colonization that no longer holds the interest of Earth, hence Earth's dismissive attitude towards the people of Mars)

Here is where you might want to change some things: Konnerik has failed his people at this point, which means things are coming to head for power tranistion. Here's how I see it playing out: New Mars revolution takes over, which really upsets Gina's plan and forces her to come up with this Earth man scheme. Konnerik declares marshall law becuase of fears of a new mars revolution, which only serves to radicalize the situation and make it worse, Gina looks to seize the moment by inflitrating the New mars movement to see if she can use it to come to power.

She puts two and two together and decides to embark on an accellerated plan to jump-start the terraforming of Mars by using the rocket fleet to capture it and slam it into Mars.

How will this solve Gina's problems, or get her closer to her goal? Slamming an asteroid into the planet unilatteraly might not win her friends- how is she planning to deal with this? What are her contingency plans? How does this give her more personal power? How will any of this resolve the situation with Earth?

You will probably have to explore some of the politics of terraforming. Who stands where, and why.

You might also want to rethink Josh's back history.

He is an earthling, recent immigrant, recent divorcee- why on Earth would he join a revolutionary group on Mars? Why would the group accept him? Why is he needed? What does he bring to the table that no one else can?

Thought: Josh is the emmissary from Gina to the New mars movement in Cliffside. He is coming to tell them that Gina wants to provide support for their movement- but he can only give this message to the leader of the movement (and Kyria sicne she takes Josh to the leader) He finds out who the leader is, and Gina gives that information to Konnerik, he acts on it and kills the leader, which triggers a response from the revolution group. Gina plans to take over after the big mess, since Konnerik is removed by the group, which is now headed by Kyria. Josh feels responsible for what happens, and works with Kyria to undo Gina's plan.

Gina dosen't really need help from anyone, she just needs them to stay out of her way- thus she looks to decapitate the bodies so she can assume defacto control.

thoughts?

Palomar · 2003-03-06 14:22:59

Byron: If you left out the "kissing" scene (ugh), you'd be able to fit a "Chinese Moon colony" scene.... Just trying to help, dontchaknow.
You do ya mean, "ugh"??
What's a novel if it doesn't have romance? ???
B

*I've known some fine novels/stories with nary a trace of romance in them. A woman, not greatly taken up with romances? It might be shocking to some.

It seems to me that there are only 2 ways in which a romance can end in a story:
1. In tragedy (whether major or minor, so that at least one of the characters can continue in the plot).
2. In union...thereby creating an exclusionary environment for those 2 characters which necessarily limits their interaction ::outside:: their little dyad.

Why do you think so many great fictional characters are single and unattached?

Also, does the romance help the story along...or is it merely a fanciful ::distraction:: to the main plot and what you are trying to accomplish with the story?

I prefer action and suspense to romance...any day. When it comes to novels, my usual attitude is: Forget love; go for lust.

--Cindy

Byron · 2003-03-06 14:53:06

Some very good questions / comments, clark....you don't know how much it's helping me to use you as a sounding board. If only if I had started this process a bit sooner!

First of all, to answer your question about Gina's desire to terraform Mars...

She doesn't see the terraformation of Mars as the route to ultimate power, but rather the opposite...she needs the power so she can carry out her lifelong *dream* of terraformation. Terraformation is something she beleives is "right" for Mars, even before the events of the story begin. In the early going, she does want to share her dream of terraformation, but since Konnarock regards her as his enemy, she then feels she needs to work "behind the scenes" prior to impacting the comet so she doesn't miss the window of opportunity to capture that comet. As for the antimatter rocket program, it's more of a company secret - she's staking the future of Ares Corp on those rockets, as she knows the age of mining exports is coming to a close, and that Ares Corp must diverstify in order to survive. The rockets become known to the public when they blast off from Phobos in a "demonstration" run out to Jupiter...including the rendevous with the comet. What's being kept a secret is the actual diversion of the comet towards Mars. That is kept a secret until after its too late for anyone to do anything about it.

As for the two entities on Mars, yes, Mariner and the Twin Cities are basically competing outfits, founded by different interests in the past. This is why Konnarock can spurn Gina's "voluntary" export quotas. He doesn't want to work with her as he doens't trust what she is attempting to do with setting planet-wide export limits. Your idea about Earth interests playing him against her is a good one...I'll have to think on that one for a bit, as that could strengthen that aspect of the storyline...

As for your idea of making another person the leader of the revolutionary movement, I really like that one. Kyria is the idealist, while one of her closest friends could be the actual leader, which would make the love triangle that sets up between Josh, Kyria and Gina a bit more plausible. Out of the ideas you have suggested, I like this one the best, as it'll take care of many of the difficulties I had in my first draft.

As for you other suggestions, about Konnarock's dealings with the revolutionary movement, etc...I need to give it some more thought. I'm a bit confused with what you said in that paragraph..care to expound on that a bit?

As for the question about why she seeks to jump-start the terraforming process on her own - because of the outright embargo, she realizes that Cliffside would probably outlast Ares Corp, as they produce more of what they need, etc...so the comet is really the only way she can save her part of Mars from total ruin, now that Konnarock has spurned her efforts to work cooperatively. She then seeks to harness the youth of Mars (most of whom are in Cliffside) to be the driving force to save their planet from slipping into oblivion.

As for Josh wanting to join the revolutionary movement, he doesn't...at least not yet. He just wants to be accepted, which is why he falls for Gina at first, and then Kyria, and then later on, when the scope of Gina's grand plan is obvious to him, he realizes that he needs to convince Kyria that her True Red movement is barking up the wrong tree, so to speak, and that all of Cliffside has a common enemy, which is Gina. He must also convince them of this before all is lost, i.e. a total breakdown of their society due to the intergenerational war that is taking place. What he brings to the table is the knowledge of what Gina is truly up to as far as helping to split apart the community, crashing the comet into Mars without consensus, etc. In summary, Josh becomes the hero of Cliffside by playing peacemaker. Your thought about Gina not needing help from anyone, just that she needs to get people out of her way is pretty close what I've written anyhow...what Josh has to do is to convince Kyria and her peers is that Gina is helping to fuel the revolution and bring it to a violent end, as that would leave Cliffside dependent upon her to clean up the mess afterwards, i.e., she plans to come in and "save" Cliffside, in exchange for lending legitimincy to her terraformation program, which would allow her to carry out her work far into the future without interference from Earth, etc. Josh is the one that is in the position of revealing the true nature of Gina's plans.

Any more thoughts, questions, clarifications?

B

Byron · 2003-03-06 15:06:32

B
*I've known some fine novels/stories with nary a trace of romance in them. A woman, not greatly taken up with romances? It might be shocking to some.
It seems to me that there are only 2 ways in which a romance can end in a story:
1. In tragedy (whether major or minor, so that at least one of the characters can continue in the plot).
2. In union...thereby creating an exclusionary environment for those 2 characters which necessarily limits their interaction ::outside:: their little dyad.
Why do you think so many great fictional characters are single and unattached?
Also, does the romance help the story along...or is it merely a fanciful ::distraction:: to the main plot and what you are trying to accomplish with the story?
I prefer action and suspense to romance...any day. When it comes to novels, my usual attitude is: Forget love; go for lust.
--Cindy

Basically, you could say "lust" is a big factor in my book, the truly "romantic" part doesn't come until close to the end. Gina uses her power of attraction to get Josh caught up in her scheming, Josh goes to Cliffside, an attraction develops between him and Kyria, but intervening events pull them back apart, which allows Gina to pull him back towards her...Josh is then forced to decide who he truly loves, etc. (the same goes for Kyria.) So I would say the "romance" I've written about is integral to the plot, rather than a distraction....

As for action and suspense, don't worry, there will be plenty of that in there ..I just haven't revealed all the nitty-gritty details...

B

clark · 2003-03-06 15:48:53

I'm glad my suggestions are turning out to be worthwhile.

Something about Gina, think about her character- you are really starting to flesh things out for her character now. Is it really in her character to fall in love with an earth man she is using for her long held goal of Martian control and terraformation? I think you can make it about sex, but not about love with those two. Gina is iron. Gina is a CEO and would-be ruler of Mars, she has only one love, her own ambition. Besides, someone liek her could only fall for someone on par, or better than herself (like Konnerik- perhaps ancient lovers... but I digress). Better to have Josh deal with his ex-wife issues than create arbitrary ones between Gina and Kyria.

I think you are on the right track with Gina and her goals for terraforming, however, you still need to figure out how her views square with everyone else in the story. What does each main, and secondary character think of terraforming on Mars- to what extent do they want terraforming, or no terraforming, how would they like to see it done, etc. This piece is very important to your story Byron, becuase the asteroid is one of the major climaxs of the story- so how everyone perceives the action will be a neccessary step.

I might suggest that Gina blames the Red Mars group for sabotaging the anti-matter engines, and causing the asteroid to plummet into Mars- this allows her to have her hands clean, and then have cause to move in and REMOVE the New Mars group (they are a threat to her power base as well as Konnerik).

So Gina gets Josh to find out who is the leader of the Red Mars, she tells Konnerik, he kills the leader, the Red Mars group retaliates and removes him, Gina blames the Red mars group for the terroist terraforming so the rest of the inhabitants of Mars support her in getting rid of the Red Mars group, which puts her into defacto control of Mars... and then Kyria is forced to trust in Josh, after the first betrayl in order to undo Gina's plot...and Josh MUST help Kyria because Gina is out to destroy her- and he simply can't lose his love...

all tied up in a nice little bow.

This is why Konnarock can spurn Gina's "voluntary" export quotas. He doesn't want to work with her as he doens't trust what she is attempting to do with setting planet-wide export limits.

Perhaps align this idea as a Terran based idea, so Konnerik cannot go along with it due to his domestic considerations and the growing New Mars movement that is against Terran policies (this also creates opportunites for Josh to overcome the "outsider" label within the New Mars movement) Just a rough idea.

As for you other suggestions, about Konnarock's dealings with the revolutionary movement, etc...I need to give it some more thought. I'm a bit confused with what you said in that paragraph..care to expound on that a bit?

I'm shootin from the hip, so could you point me to the exact paragraph?

. She then seeks to harness the youth of Mars (most of whom are in Cliffside) to be the driving force to save their planet from slipping into oblivion.

This is a great morality issue you've got- the villian doing evil but for noble ends. Again, you need to show how her very drastic action fits into the gray area of unacceptable behavior for the right reasons. You'll need to delinate the costs of failure- what is it that they will lose- will Mars become uninhabitable without this? Will Earth move in? (Does Gina have information that no one else does that leads her to believe that this is the best, and only course of action?) Is there some martian disease with no cure caused by the living conditions imposed by the martian environment, so an open environment is a long term neccessity (an opportunity to highlight Gina's long term vision versus Koneriks short term vision).

I might suggest that falling fertility rates require that action be taken now, lest no new Martians will be born in a few generations.

Now things can be a little more fun with Gina's character, and the reactions of the other characters to her plan. "Well yes, Gina IS evil, but she is doing it for our own good." "Well yes, something needs to be done, but not like this." etc. Gray morality gives you more options and allows the readers to understand the actions of all characters- and they become more real, instead of black and white characitures of people.

No one is evil, they're just amoral with their own persepctive.

Just a thought, but if you go with the whole "infertility" angle, you could set it up that Gina tells New Mars group about this to get them to help with the antimatter rockets, which lets Gina set them up to take the fall for doing it... the infertiltiy could even be "a theory" which Gina tells them is a real threat.

You might also want to set up the whole terraformation issue as being even-steven with the mars population- being that most people though are for gradual terraformation, or passive terraformation- So Gina knows that most of the population will go along with her even longer term plans of terraformation becuase "they're no use crying over spilt milk".

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