Terraform Mars with a minimal snow and lake method as a starter.

Void · 2016-09-17 11:53:07

http://www.space.com/34095-mars-lakes-s … ought.html
Quote:

Huge Mars Lakes Formed Much More Recently Than Thought
Some Red Planet streams and lakes — including one bigger than several of North America's Great Lakes — formed just 2 billion to 3 billion years ago, a new study suggests. That's a surprise, because researchers think that, by that epoch, Mars had already lost most of its atmosphere, and therefore had likely become too cold to host liquid water on its surface.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ … l?ITO=1490

So, it appears that snow melt was able to fill these lakes even when the climate was unfavorable to liquid water.

It is unlikely that Mars will repeat this action now, but I wonder if by studying it, a short cut method could be produced to partially terraform Mars to that equivalent of habitability.

So two processes would be needed:
1) Create Snow.
2) Melt Snow.

And to get a useful result at a reasonable price of effort.

The methods to surface evaporate ice on the polar caps are of course:
1) Greenhouse Gasses.
2) Pigmentation. (Dirt)
3) Orbital Mirrors.

The three together might produce early usable results I would think.

For Deep Melting:
1) Microwaves.
2) Lasers.

With the above two, you might melt part of the South polar ice cap and might be able to induce and maintain an ice covered river, which might evaporate to produce snow elsewhere. (Just being through)

If Snow was produced at a suitable latitude, then to melt it I am thinking microwaves from orbit.

This might melt it from the bottom up, which is preferable because it is desired to produce running liquid water, and not to evaporate the snow back to the atmosphere.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=me … &FORM=VIRE

http://www.space.com/24052-incredible-t … water.html

Anyway, this plan requires activity on the surface to produce greenhouse gasses, and activity in orbit as well, for dirt to the poles, mirrors, microwaves ect.

It is a more active plan than just using greenhouse gasses and waiting around for centuries for Mars to thaw out and become useful.

This more active plan might produce greater volumes of water for use earlier.

Anyway I am working on the Mars problem this time that should make some people happy.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2016-09-17 12:31:35)

Antius · 2016-09-17 19:32:07

Another option could be waste heat from large nuclear power plants. Snake polyethylene pipes over portions of the cap containing warm brine. Melting and evaporation are far more effective at removing heat than radiation. Your lakes could serve multiple purposes: waste heat dumps, aquaculture ponds and centre of ecosystem.

My guess is that waste heat may be too valuable to lose in this way, you would probably want to save it for heating habitats and pressure domes.

Last edited by Antius (2016-09-17 19:33:48)

Void · 2016-09-17 20:56:06

I like your presentation and your cautions. I didn't think to go in that direction, but this is "Aggressive Terraforming" we are not wimps! We could do nuclear.

Which brings me to an interesting question. While I am sure you intend fission nuclear, eventually fusion nuclear would be able to replace it most likely, and Mars has quite a concentration of deuterium.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deuterium
And I will honor the high master:
http://www.nss.org/settlement/mars/zubrin-colonize.html

But there is one commercial resource that is known to exist ubiquitously on Mars in large amount — deuterium. Deuterium, the heavy isotope of hydrogen, occurs as 166 out of every million hydrogen atoms on Earth, but comprises 833 out of every million hydrogen atoms on Mars. Deuterium is the key fuel not only for both first and second generation fusion reactors, but it is also an essential material needed by the nuclear power industry today. Even with cheap power, deuterium is very expensive; its current market value on Earth is about $10,000 per kilogram, roughly fifty times as valuable as silver or 70% as valuable as gold. This is in today's pre-fusion economy. Once fusion reactors go into widespread use deuterium prices will increase. All the in-situ chemical processes required to produce the fuel, oxygen, and plastics necessary to run a Mars settlement require water electrolysis as an intermediate step. As a by product of these operations, millions, perhaps billions, of dollars worth of deuterium will be produced.

As for fusion reactors, I think that I have read that such are coming along, the magnetic confinement type. Of course it will be some time yet.

But what about this?
http://www.space.com/23084-mars-explora … ocket.html
spacecraft_mars.jpg?interpolation=lanczos-none&downsize=*:1400

I had thought that the above rocket was still in development, but I am not sure it is. If it were to work, I would wonder why it could not be made into some sort of a ground based reactor on Mars. Of course you would need Lithium.

Anyway Fusion of any kind can wait to become practical. Fission might be just fine for some time. I wonder if Thorium from Earth could boot strap it into a startup until a local source could be developed?

Antius said:

Your lakes could serve multiple purposes: waste heat dumps, aquaculture ponds and centre of ecosystem.

So, sure polar ice cap lakes, nuclear energy as the key.

I tend to favor chemosynthesis for supporting aquaculture, but artificial lighting would be allowable as well.

If that structure were established, there is a next move I would want to consider, it is a variation on the "Dirt on the Ice Cap" idea.

Instead, I would like to manufacture tiny styrofoam beads with a blackened U.V. resistant coating.

th?&id=OIP.M49c79a91b463c5d671175d8c72546934H0&w=300&h=184&c=0&pid=1.9&rs=0&p=0&r=0

My hope is that unlike dirt or carbon, they will tend to float on top of the ice as their specific gravity will be less. Of course if they get enveloped and a sufficient deposit of new ice goes on top of them, it will not work so well. However, I think that in most areas of the ice caps the CO2 ice evaporates off each summer, and there may not be that much of an additional water ice layer above these things in the spring/summer.

So to distribute these things, a gun of some kind would be wanted. Any ideas?

Last edited by Void (2016-09-17 21:20:17)

Void · 2017-01-03 20:07:32

I decided to add this to this thread to avoid starting another:
http://phys.org/news/2017-01-d-images-r … rtian.html

Quote:

Three-dimensional subsurface images are revealing structures within the Martian polar ice caps, including previously obscured layering, a larger volume of frozen carbon dioxide contained in the south polar cap, and bowl-shaped features that may be buried impact craters within both polar caps.

Well, I am thinking about the active vaporization of that volume of frozen carbon dioxide, for the benefit of humans, and to speed up terraformation. So, then to inhabit and exploit the polar ice caps of Mars.

I guess the idea would be to treat that CO2 deposit as a special resource, a coolant, perhaps for a nuclear reactor industry, or some other heat delivering process.

I a guessing that before doing that, Utopia Planetia, and perhaps also Hellas Planetia will have been settled, and that their will be an Antius method to launch ballistic payloads of ice to locations between them to support small settlements between them. Also I presume that hyperloop will be installed between them and can be extended to the polar ice cap edges as a transport mode. I also presume that some terraforming has already been done with greenhouse gasses to reduce or eliminate the seasonal CO2 caps.

A body of water would be generated by a heating means at the Northern ice cap, and if indeed it rests on the bed of a former ocean, salts would percolate into its water, and those may contain Uranium which can be extracted. That Uranium would then support a fission nuclear industry both at the North and South polar ice deposit's. I also allow for orbital solar to help this process, and if indeed their are underground reservoirs of Methane, then pipelines sending a mix of Methane and Hydrogen to the reservoirs of the polar ice caps, to help support a chemosynthetic food chain, and by doing that to help contribute heat.

Where greenhouse gasses in the atmosphere might make the polar surface somewhat more habitable, I think an active method to melt the water and vaporize the CO2 deposit's that are deep is to be preferred.

Last edited by Void (2017-01-03 20:30:47)

Void · 2017-01-05 12:02:54

Getting into basic information:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martian_polar_ice_caps
Quote:

The caps at both poles consist primarily of water ice. Frozen carbon dioxide accumulates as a comparatively thin layer about one metre thick on the north cap in the northern winter only, while the south cap has a permanent dry ice cover about 8 m thick.[4] The northern polar cap has a diameter of about 1000 km during the northern Mars summer,[5] and contains about 1.6 million cubic km of ice, which if spread evenly on the cap would be 2 km thick.[6] (This compares to a volume of 2.85 million cubic km (km3) for the Greenland ice sheet.) The southern polar cap has a diameter of 350 km and a thickness of 3 km.[7] The total volume of ice in the south polar cap plus the adjacent layered deposits has also been estimated at 1.6 million cubic km.[8] Both polar caps show spiral troughs, which recent analysis of SHARAD ice penetrating radar has shown are a result of roughly perpendicular katabatic winds that spiral due to the Coriolis Effect.

So that is a volume comparison to the Greenland ice cap for North and South, and also an average thickness for the North, to get an idea of the magnitude of the deposit's.

Terraforming by greenhouse gasses has two thresholds. 1) Warming to the extent to reduce or eliminate the deposition of CO2 ice in the polar regions. 2) Melting polar water ice.

I am going to guess that #1 is attainable in a reasonable period of time. I will bet that #2 is hard to attain, and would take quite a very long time.

I am also going to say that I don't think that #2 is worth seeking. (Melting by warming the Martian atmosphere).

Ice dammed lakes:
http://www.hugefloods.com/Ice-Age-Floods-2.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Agassiz

I am not contemplating anything as grand as lake Agassiz, but rather much smaller cone shaped lakes perhaps, that reach down to bedrock. The trick will be to maintain stability.
The links above suggest that it might be possible.

What I am after is an induced ecosystem with ice covered lakes which will have ice lenses thin enough for light to penetrate and stimulate photo life.

Here is where I would like to think they could best be placed:

Both polar caps show spiral troughs, which recent analysis of SHARAD ice penetrating radar has shown are a result of roughly perpendicular katabatic winds that spiral due to the Coriolis Effect.[9][10]

North polar cap in 1999

South polar cap in 2000

I choose the spiral troughs locations for several reasons. The ice/dust deposit's should be thinner. (Don't need 2-3 km of ice). Want less. The deposits will be dirtier, which means the basins the water sits in will be more stable.

I expect that the troughs will be reasonably passable for roads/hyperloop, and that the air pressure in them will be slightly higher than for the upper caps.

Whereas these lakes could be made salty, as a general rule I expect that they will not be very salty, and that they will not be particularly good at collecting solar heat. They will collect some directly, but that will not be sufficient to maintain liquid water within them.

So, I will list possible make-up heat sources to maintain them as liquid in order of plausibility.
-Nuclear Fission (I would look at what the French have done).
-Adjacent supplemental solar (That is solar cells, and likely Heliostat systems).
-Distant supplemental solar power systems. (Delivering power by way of electricity, Methane, Hydrogen from lower latitudes).
-Orbital solar (Various possibilities)
-Fusion
-Cold Fusion (Likely not real)
-Hydrino (Likely not real)

I am thinking exposed ice surfaces on these lakes, so evaporation may be significant due to Katabatic winds.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katabatic_wind

In this case however unlike most places on Mars, evaporation might be an advantage. For one thing it could be used to help lower the total water column of the lake to the ideal. And if the lake reaches to bedrock, then you have an access to the "Grounding line" of the polar ice cap.

So, I suggest an interface from there to a tunnel system at the grounding line, but not limited to it. The tunnel system will provide make up water to compensate for evaporation from the lake ice surfaces, and of course the "VOIDS" created are then in some ways potentially useful in themselves as they might be pressurized.

The tunnel system could connect to very large "VOIDS". Circular at the base and curving in an 2D way to an apex. How high the void? Well the ice is up to 2-3 km thick on average? Of course not 2-3 km, but big is possible. And this melted ice, then as make-up water for the lakes.

The tunnels and voids may lead to soft rock that can be carved into habitats, or even mineral deposits.

These tunnels and voids could be carved with lasers perhaps. After carving they could be re-enforced by pasting a plaster mix of basalt fibers and water to the walls and letting it freeze back.

And within these voids you could place plastic inflated sub enclosures to allow somewhat warmer temperatures. And within those you could construct buildings and parks and so on. Of course these will require artificial lighting.

Returning to the evaporation issue, when the North is summer, it's evaporation will go to the south and then seasonally vice versa. Perhaps the process will even cause increased precipitation such as snow away from the ice caps. If so, then good.

Water canals to carry water from the polar ice caps to lower latitudes? Why not? Especially for the South ice cap which is of a higher elevation.

So, my primary point is that after the initial settlements, and habitation of Utopia Planetia / Hellas, I would direct development to the polar ice caps as this is where you are going to get the greatest rewards for your effort.

Last edited by Void (2017-01-05 13:09:53)

Lake Matthew Team - Cole · 2017-01-06 12:25:29

Meltwater

Void wrote:

If Snow was produced at a suitable latitude, then to melt it I am thinking microwaves from orbit.

Meltwater is certainly a challenge on Mars.

Example: Consider a shallow meltwater lake, 500 m in diameter, dodging water's triple-point at -5000 m.

Winter sandstone at -90 C would freeze a 1 m layer of rock-bound ice in a week or so, top-to-bottom. You'd want to prevent that. But melting that 1 m layer would require ~9 trillion J. If such immense heat energy were available, it could be transferred through lake water to the encasing ice. However the lake's low boiling point (~5 C) would waste that heat. Water above 5 C would boil at the surface, quickly losing heat to the atmosphere, instead of the rock-bound ice.

How to get the heat energy, and how to get it into the ice, quickly and with little waste? Hard problems.

Note: Orbital microwaves or orbital reflected light can't deliver the energy because that radiation can't be focused onto the 500 m lake. The inverse-square flux law prevents focus from orbit, wasting the energy over a wide region.

Last edited by Lake Matthew Team - Cole (2017-01-07 18:52:18)

Void · 2017-01-06 13:28:42

You are correct. Under the current pressure environment of Mars, even at the bottom of Hellas, if there were snow, melting would be possible at a certain level in a translucent snowbank, but the snowbank and the meltwater would rapidly evaporate in the dry winds, even at say 11 or 12 mb.

Here I will contradict myself a bit. I have read that if the CO2 of the polar caps were vaporized, then a average pressure of 11 mb would exist, and under those conditions, true snow could happen on Mars, and actually temporary melt water streams.

So, prior to intending to have melt water or inhabit the polar areas, I think that the Martian atmosphere must be boosted up to at least an average of 11 mb. This I presume would be accomplished best by the typically said "Greenhouse Gas" method, although supplemental methods are not out of the question.

Evaporation and freezing of any polar lake will be of interest and a challenge as you have indicated.

First of all, I do want evaporation, but want to control it's rate if necessary, to match as desired the production of "Make-Up" water from melting tunnels and voids under the ice cap.

For a while the ice of the polar ice caps would be treated like a finite resource to be hollowed out. But in the end, vapor leaving one ice cap must end up on the other, unless the tilt of the planet is changed. So the ice is a renewable resource as far as we are concerned. Later on however when the ice caps are hollowed out to the maximum safe value, a different method to harvest newly condensed ice will be required. But that would be a very long time later.

The lakes themselves are a novel device which could provide "Barometric Airlocks", and the psychological uplift of having an actual exposed biosphere. That biosphere might be of actual economic value. But in reality the lakes would be to get rid of ice, as a primary purpose, by evaporation.

Looking at it inside-out or upside-down, if you like, the polar ice masses could be looked at as similar to flood waters in Holland, in it's polders. You like the excess water to evaporate off, to reveal dry land.

The tunnels and voids will be the valuable land exposed from the flood. The "Flood Waters" will be vented to the lakes where it will evaporate away conveniently. I would think that such pressurized "Land" would be a very good place for massive factory floor action to produce needed material goods.

Now as for the evaporation rate.

I would not expect a layer of ice over a lake to have a uniform temperature. If it is fresh water, the temperature just under the ice will be at 0 degC or 32 degF. However, ice is an insulator, and a rather good one. So, the top layer of the ice may well be at just slightly above the air temperature of the air above the ice. And I have specified that occupation of the polar areas will not occur until the Martian average pressure is at least 11 mb. So even at the elevations of the troughs of the polar ice caps, I anticipate a pressure sufficient to retard the evaporation of cold ice. The ice surface might be -50 degC? -100 degC? Colder? It depends on the temperatures at the poles and the thickness of the ice primarily.

The polar areas will of course be extremely seasonal. Land of the midnight sun times ~2 actually as the year of Mars is so long. And of course a dreadful long dark cold winter.

If the power is Fission/Fusion/Cold Fusion/Hydrino (In that order of realism), then it is obtainable 24/7 year around barring breakdowns.

Solar of course is seasonal. I prefer heliostats as a method, but I am open to photo-voltaic.

Seasonal wind power might also be an improbable source of energy.

When the poles are again exposed to sunlight, the frozen CO2 sublimes, creating enormous winds that sweep off the poles as fast as 400 km/h

But of course if greenhouse gasses have eliminated CO2 frost, then the weather will operate differently. Still, I would be looking for strong Katabatic winds coming off of the poles and down the troughs. (And inducting increased evaporation).

So, unlike any other environment that I can think of on Mars, evaporation will be a friend of the inhabitants of the polar ice caps. But there could be too much of a good thing, so moderators could be employed.

I am thinking of tents of flat pillows or balloons of a plastic film placed over the lake ice. This would reduce evaporation, but it would increase expense.

But returning to energy, in actually evaporation could be valuable as a cooling method. Particularly if dealing with a nuclear energy source. If you have a constant source of make up water to replenish the lake, you can dump heat into it, and thermal radiation from the lake, and evaporative cooling will be helpful, not an expense or threat.

For solar, much the same is true, but it will be seasonal. In the winter, the lakes could be allowed to freeze very deep, to increase the thermal insulation of the ice layer. In such a seasonal situation, I would expect humans to use hyperloops to migrate from pole to pole, so as to be in an almost eternal summer. (Some humans would stay over, a skeleton crew).

One more thing. In the case of using Fission power, if one particular lake is polluted with a radiation spill, it could be abandoned, and allowed to freeze solid. Perhaps this would be sufficient to contain the pollution.

Last edited by Void (2017-01-06 14:25:45)

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#1 2016-09-17 11:53:07

Terraform Mars with a minimal snow and lake method as a starter.

#2 2016-09-17 19:32:07

Re: Terraform Mars with a minimal snow and lake method as a starter.

#3 2016-09-17 20:56:06

Re: Terraform Mars with a minimal snow and lake method as a starter.

#4 2017-01-03 20:07:32

Re: Terraform Mars with a minimal snow and lake method as a starter.

#5 2017-01-05 12:02:54

Re: Terraform Mars with a minimal snow and lake method as a starter.

#6 2017-01-06 12:25:29

Re: Terraform Mars with a minimal snow and lake method as a starter.

#7 2017-01-06 13:28:42

Re: Terraform Mars with a minimal snow and lake method as a starter.

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