Speculation on electric efficts on Mars

Void · 2016-08-23 13:00:17

I am not a scientist, so I have to classify what I say as speculation. However I will draw on more accredited sources, to try to support what I say on the topic. I choose this place in the index, because I want to connect multiple "Topics", don't want to be restricted from it.

So, to start: Dust Devils
http://www.nasa.gov/home/hqnews/2004/ap … _dust.html

However, the team's observations indicate smaller particles become negatively charged, while larger particles become positively charged. Dust devil winds carry the small, negatively charged particles high into the air, while the heavier, positively charged particles remain near the base of the dust devil. This separation of charges produces the large-scale electric field, like the positive and negative terminals on a battery. Since the electrified particles are in motion, and a magnetic field is just the result of moving electric charges, the dust devil also generates a magnetic field.
If martian dust grains have a variety of sizes and compositions, dust devils on Mars should become electrified the same way as their particles rub against each other, according to the team. Martian dust storms, which can cover the entire planet, are also expected to be strong generators of electric fields. The team hopes to measure a large dust storm on Earth and have instruments to detect atmospheric electric and magnetic fields on future Mars landers.

I am going to speculate that for normal dust blown in the wind, and sucked up in updrafts during the day, also:Dust devil winds carry the small, negatively charged particles high into the air, while the heavier, positively charged particles remain near the base.

Therefore I also speculate that towards, the end of day and into early night, perhaps bigger particles with a greater (+) charge drop to the surface, and charge the surface to a greater (+) potential, and that later into the night (-) particles bring a (-) charge to the ground.

Fogs which form at night may be assisted in forming by the (-) particles. Water vapor ions (+) tend to be attracted to a (-) charge. The UV light during the day may have knocked electrons off of some of the water vapor molecules in the atmosphere of Mars.

I will go to the next post:

Last edited by Void (2016-08-23 13:13:57)

JoshNH4H · 2016-08-23 13:11:12

Such things often happen frequently on Earth and result in thunderstorms. I don't think lightning has ever been observed on Mars so the electric fields involved can't be very large.

Void · 2016-08-23 13:17:11

I Hi Josh,

I have read that the atmosphere of Mars is about 100 times as conductive as the Earths atmosphere. I presume they mean near the surface of both atmospheres. So, I would expect that any discharges on Mars would be relatively gentile, as they would not have to generate such a hot plasma in order to facilitate equalization of charge.

But, I am speculating, not enough proven facts to state that what I say is true, it in part might be close. I also am gravitating towards a notion of electrical discharges occurring on the surface in special locations, and possibly also involving other potential conductive materials of the surface in conjunction with the atmospheres greater ability to conduct electricity. And I will not preclude the possibility of electrical flow through the ground. That in fact has to happen at some magnitude.

I am going to try to speculate that elevation differences may be important as well, and temperature of the ground. I am going to even try to associate RSL with the speculation.

I am not very interested in harnessing the possible electric potential, I think that would not work out very well for any effort expended. However, I am interested in just possibly exploiting the travel of moisture, and the hope that the process concentrates it to flow along certain pathways in association with the surface, perhaps areas where there are large elevation differences.

But I am speculating, to say otherwise, makes it hard to continue. But I will continue. I will also think about the "Cleaning" events that have happened to the probes sent to Mars.

Last edited by Void (2016-08-23 13:30:22)

Void · 2016-08-23 13:33:00

RSL:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasonal_ … ian_slopes
Mariner Rift Valley:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valles_Marineris
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Noct … inthus.jpg

Well, anyway, I am thinking that the RSL may serve as short circuits at certain times due to the presumed liquid brine. The reason I include RSL, is that many but not all are in the rift valley. Possibly if the speculation would explain them in the rift valley, then you would also have to justify that it works in the other RSL at other locations. So, just maybe it can be tested a bit by the information we already have on RSL.

So, I am presuming that because the valley floor is so much deeper, it will have an amplification of the (+) charge in early night, and the normal surface above may have already encountered contact with the (-) charge.

The fog, is I presume ice crystals, nucleated on (-) charge small particles, and the precipitation of it into low lying areas, may concentrate the (-) charge during the night.

The visible RSL when warm and moist (If so), may provide a path of least resistance for the flow of water ions from the vapor which must form when the ice fogs are dissipated in the early hours of morning. I am a bit conflicted on what may happen. I presume that the fogs and the vapor are (-) charged, and that possibly the valley floor is (+) charged. If there are a surface flow of some kind of ions may be possible. I have mentioned the RSL, but on old circuit boards you could also have carbon tracks form to cause short circuits, and I don't know how that might associate with liquid brines in RSL, or in the subsurface. In general though, water in contact with the surface should be attracted to a (-) charge, but I have speculated that the fogs are (-) charged already. Possibly when the ice crystals evaporate, they leave the electrons on the small dust, and are then themselves (+) charged, and could be attracted to a (-) charge.

And from a selfish point of view, I would like to exploit that somewhere in the presumed process to extract an ion flow of water vapor. I know that that can be done in liquids, but in a surface material with water ions of gas, I do not know that, but I would like to know.

Last edited by Void (2016-08-23 13:51:43)

Void · 2016-08-23 13:53:57

I believe that the thinking is that RSL get their moisture from the atmosphere most likely, and I am wondering if an electrical ion flow driven by wind blown dust, and fog precipitation could be involved.

Further, I would like to exploit it if it does indeed concentrate moisture out of the atmosphere.

As for the cleaning on the probes sent, it reminds me of electrical methods proposed to keep solar panels clean.

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/4205 … ar-panels/

So, this is another possible clue, which might fit in with a future theory of electrical processes in the Martian atmosphere.

I guess that is plenty of speculation for you to hammer away on, I will learn something I am guessing. Might not like it, but I am ready.

Last edited by Void (2016-08-23 13:58:29)

JoshNH4H · 2016-08-25 12:44:53

Don't overcomplicate these things -- Lightning happens on Earth too and it's no big deal really.

Antius · 2016-08-25 13:52:42

Electrostatic fines could be a real nuisance after a dust storm. It would stick to anything non-conductive, including transparent surfaces on greenhouses. Could become a real chore having to keep cleaning those surfaces.

RobertDyck · 2016-08-25 14:25:42

Void · 2016-08-25 17:40:40

Josh,

I am not very interested in lightning at this time.

Antius and Robert, I think as Robert has sort of indicated, a means to deal with dust accumulation should be available. The cleaning events on the rovers suggest this. Also, suggested methods previously mentioned for dust removal from solar collectors points to it.

Last edited by Void (2016-08-25 17:42:14)

Void · 2016-08-25 17:43:20

I am currently most interested in RSL, and the possibility that electric effects might help to moisten them.

I have a suggestion on how this could work. I suggest that if the RSL could serve as dust collectors, and if the fog had a different electrical charge, very cold ice particles in a "Slurry" of air and fog, would likely flow down slopes during the night, and present a flow of ice particles which could be collected by the exposed moistened brine.

Although, I do not have measurements I will speculate that the larger particles would bring a (+) charge to the soil, when the air turbulence of the day died down. Then on occasion, ice fogs precipitated on (-) charged smaller dust particles would come down with cold air flows down slopes, and present a flow of moisture which could be absorbed, if the exposed portions of the RSL had a (+) charge from the larger particles.

In this process, I anticipate that the RSL may have "Roots" of brine which are unseen due to being under the soil, and that if this is true, then a larger source of (+) charge will be available during the process. If the RSL serve as electrostatic collectors of ice fog crystals, then those will moisten the brine of the RSL, with moisture traveling by way of equalization of dissolved salts into the roots.

And of course when the temperatures of the RSL and roots dropped off to freezing, or the source of moisture was not equal to or more than the evaporation rate of the RSL, the conductive nature of the RSL would be much reduced.

So, if this were true, it might explain how RSL might be able to collect sufficient moisture from the atmosphere to exist.

The downward slope of the RSL would allow some part of the brine network to be exposed to the ice fogs, to serve as a collector plate.

Last edited by Void (2016-08-25 17:55:26)

Void · 2016-08-28 23:05:38

Josh,

I am not feeling like being a jerk here, I though you might appreciate additional information on the topic of lightning on Mars. Really, I was tempted just to shut up, but I think you would just as soon be informed.

http://www.space.com/7102-lightning-detected-mars.html

The lightning wouldn't look quite like what we see on Earth during a thunderstorm ? "It wouldn't likely be the big lightning bolts," Ruf said, instead it would look more like a glow in the clouds, akin to so-called heat lightning here on Earth.

So actually what I would expect with a more conductive atmosphere, but maybe that is not the reason / the only reason.

Let me know if in fact this 2009 article has been refuted. I would honestly like to know the facts.

As for the RSL, recent reading by me says that the RSL will not be running with water, but at best will be hydrated salts, perhaps wafer thin.

Last edited by Void (2016-08-28 23:08:32)

JoshNH4H · 2016-08-28 23:37:48

I'm sorry, RSL?

Void · 2016-08-29 08:35:16

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasonal_ … ian_slopes

It seems that the latest is that they are moistened salt a wafer thin.

However, as a member has mentioned, the press is full of B.S. and it is becoming common to have contradictory articles.
They just want to print something, and often they go to one extreme and then some other article will go to another.

Last edited by Void (2016-08-29 08:37:26)

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#1 2016-08-23 13:00:17

Speculation on electric efficts on Mars

#2 2016-08-23 13:11:12

Re: Speculation on electric efficts on Mars

#3 2016-08-23 13:17:11

Re: Speculation on electric efficts on Mars

#4 2016-08-23 13:33:00

Re: Speculation on electric efficts on Mars

#5 2016-08-23 13:53:57

Re: Speculation on electric efficts on Mars

#6 2016-08-25 12:44:53

Re: Speculation on electric efficts on Mars

#7 2016-08-25 13:52:42

Re: Speculation on electric efficts on Mars

#8 2016-08-25 14:25:42

Re: Speculation on electric efficts on Mars

#9 2016-08-25 17:40:40

Re: Speculation on electric efficts on Mars

#10 2016-08-25 17:43:20

Re: Speculation on electric efficts on Mars

#11 2016-08-28 23:05:38

Re: Speculation on electric efficts on Mars

#12 2016-08-28 23:37:48

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#13 2016-08-29 08:35:16

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