The Case for Jupiter: Which is more hospitable? Jupiter or Saturn?

Tom Kalbfus · 2016-06-18 08:13:23

After Mars which one would be colonized first and how? Jupiter has strong gravity, but it is four times warmer than Saturn, this would mean less energy would be expended in keeping the habitats warm. If one wants to walk around freely in the Jovian environment, say in the gondola of a balloon, one would need to be in an exoskeleton with perhaps a counter pressure suit to keep the blood flowing the brain. There are exoskeletons in development by the military. So one just needs to wear one of those all the time. When one goes to sleep, one can take it off. Since lying flat under around two and a half gees isn't so bad. The hard part about living in the atmosphere would be going back into space, since the orbit velocity of even low Jupiter orbit is quite high. The other problem is getting through the strongest van allen belt radiation in the Solar System, but once in the atmosphere or just above it, then Jupiter's strong magnetic field would protect you from solar flares.

Another place humans can inhabit is low Jupiter orbit. In the extreme upper atmosphere of Jupiter, there is enough atmosphere to block the charged particles from the lower Van Allen belts from orbiting here, but the atmosphere is tenous enough to permit a space station to orbit here with some station keeping.

Using the orbit calculator: http://orbitsimulator.com/gravity/artic … ator2.html
I get an orbit period of around 3 hours for a low orbit around Jupiter. the actual period at Jupiter's radius is 2.9630517763243946 hours. I guess Jupiter's radius is defined as that altitude where the air pressure is the same as Earth's at sea level, so an actual orbit will be above that, so it would take three hours to complete a circular orbit just above the Jovian atmosphere. In orbit we wouldn't have to worry about Jupiter's gravity. We would need to provide gravity in fact through rotation, if we wanted to stay there for a long time. Getting there is easier than getting back. We can use Jovian atmospheric braking to slow down into a low Jupiter orbit. We can use a steep elliptical orbit to get our passengers quickly through the Van Allen radiation belts, with lots of shielding. Unfortunately Jupiter's atmosphere cannot similarly accelerate objects to Jovian escape velocity, which is a real high number, which is 59.366 km/sec!

Tom Kalbfus · 2016-06-18 18:30:34

There are things we could build in LJO that we couldn't build elsewhere. Recall my suspension bridge idea around Venus?
We might build a larger version of this around Jupiter, a suspension bridge hanging above the atmosphere but orbiting fast enough to cancel out 1.5-Gs of Jupiter's gravity. If it completes an orbit every 3.825283394551562 hours then the remaining gravity felt on the band's top surface would be 1-G. I calculated this with the orbit calculator using Jupiter's radius and 0.6 of Jupiter's mass to find the orbit velocity. since gravity is proportional to mass at the same distance, this will leave a downward gravity of 1-G.

karov · 2016-09-07 13:51:21

Saturn.

See.: http://www.gdnordley.com/_files/Gravity.pdf

Page 5.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2024-03-24 17:50:33

Looking at the Moons, maybe changing them for humans is only something that will happen in scifi books and movie or video games

but who knows how much we will advance in the future

perhaps a video made with AI images

Colonization of Jupiter's Moon, Callisto-A NASA Study
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QG-8jZs_27g

an older automated machine voice

Mission to Callisto
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MfNp-HRrzQ

NASA engineer looks to Saturn moon Titan for human colony
https://www.cnet.com/science/nasa-engin … an-colony/
Titan's big selling point is that you could attach wings to your arms and fly.

Let's Colonize Titan
https://www.scientificamerican.com/blog … ize-titan/
Saturn's largest moon might be the only place beyond Earth where humans could live

The Moons
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=1953
Manned Missions To Callisto and Titan - Looking Beyond Manned Missions To Mars

Calliban · 2024-03-25 13:52:32

This may be of interest.
https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2024/01/w … -2050.html

If an orbital mirror can be used to increase the surface temperature of Callisto by a modest amount, sublimation will produce a thin CO2 atmosphere. Nanorods can then be released into the atmosphere, giving rise to a powerful greenhouse effect. The source estimates that 1.5m tonnes of nanorods released each year into the Martian atmosphere, woukd be sufficient to warm the planet by 10K. Maybe something similar would work for Callisto.

Void · 2024-03-25 15:20:20

Yes, I think that is possible. Maybe for Ganymede as well.

It would be nice to have one world with an atmosphere, of some sort in the Jupiter system.

It seems like the tools needed are going to exist.

Done

Void · 2024-03-26 16:19:52

This article is about Titan for the most part but it suggests that a process of "Grains" of materials may have occurred on Callisto and Ganymede also: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … 6932c&ei=9
Quote:

Per the team’s models, a similar amount of material would have been delivered to Jupiter’s moons Callisto and Ganymede, which might explain why they also have regions coated in dark particles today.
Because many of these smashed-comet particles have passed through Earth’s atmosphere, scientists know a lot about them—including that their size, durability and color are in line with what we know about Titan’s dunes, Bottke says to Science News’ Nikk Ogasa.

I had always thought that Ganymede had mostly ice on its surface, but maybe this stuff is on that moon.

So, actually Callisto and Ganymede may be easier for solar warm up than Titan, of course. And the same solar warming process might be used for both of them as they are in a convenient place.

Ganymede has a magnetic field that could be of some use, but probably it will be needed to make more for it and also to make something for Callisto as well.

If it were possible, I would like the orbital power plants, to be comprised of mirrors, and orbital Seas, where agriculture could occur and then the build up of heat in those insulated seas would be vented to radiators to generate power which could be beamed to Callisto and Ganymede.

You have suggested a thin CO2 atmosphere to start with Calliban, that seems to have merit.

Let's consider if we could add "Carrier" gasses to that.
CO (Boiling point −191.5 °C (−312.7 °F; 81.6 K))
O2 (Boiling point (O2) 90.188 K (−182.962 °C, −297.332 °F))
N2 (Boiling point (N2) 77.355 K (−195.795 °C, −320.431 °F))

I would say that a "Carrier" gas would be one that will not condense at temperatures as warm as CO2.
CO2 (Sublimation
conditions 194.6855(30) K (−78.4645(30) °C) at 1 atm (0.101325 MPa))

So, apples to apples:
CO 81.6 K
O2 90.188 K
N2 77.355 K

CO2 194.6855 K (I think)

On Mars, just a bit colder all the CO2 could condense into ice more or less, and you would be left with a bit of N2, Argon, and traces of O2 and CO, perhaps. If Mars had more heat carrying "Carrier" gases now as it may have in the past, it might be harder for CO2 to condense on the polar ice caps.

We could be in luck with Ganymede and Callisto, as they may have some Ammonia in their ices from which may come some N2.
They do seem to have CO2 ice from which might come CO and O2 in small quantities.
It is possible that Argon may also evolve on these moons.

If they can be made less leaky, they might retain some of these. These will not condense as easily as CO2.
Maybe Argon will. And that is interesting could there be Argon ices?
Argon (Boiling point 87.302 K (−185.848 °C, −302.526 °F))

So, not sure about the story for Argon. It looks like a good "Carrier" gas if you could lay hands on it.

Each gas has a window of opaqueness for infrared light emissions I think, so a mix is better than a mono in that case. And then you intend to add these particles that would really get the action going.

I am not sure how much you could get away with in splitting CO2 into CO and O2 to make "Carrier" gasses, at some point they might recombine, perhaps explosively, but there is some wiggle room there.

So, in this picture, orbital mirrors would warm containers of water where farming could occur, and the waste heat emitted to the universe would allow the production of microwaves to beam to Callisto and Ganymede.

Then you might create ice covered seas by melting ice with that microwave power. Actually, you could consume that microwave power and then dump the heat into those seas. This then may vaporize CO2 in the water, and if we would be fortunate, some Ammonia.

Then the various carrier gasses that could be made available could be vented to the surface of Callisto to begin to create an atmosphere. Waster heat from the seas would be vented to the surface, hopefully creating power. Then CO2 could be vented, and then your particles could be injected into that thin atmosphere.

I think Magnetic protection is also desired.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-03-26 16:56:12)

Calliban · 2024-10-04 05:07:31

Amalthea appears to radiate slightly more heat than it receives from the sun.
https://www.livescience.com/space/jupit … asa-images

The extra heat could be generated by a combination of reflected heat from Jupiter, eddy currents in the moons core generated by the Jovian magnetic field, and tidal heating.

If Amalthea does have a liquid water core, it could be a candidate home for extraterrestrial microbes. A liquid water core could also be a useful energy source for future colonists. These would need to burrow into the crust to escape the jovian radiation belts. Heat from the core would help keep a colony warm and could also generate useful power by running a heat engine between the core and radiators on the moon's surface.

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#1 2016-06-18 08:13:23

The Case for Jupiter: Which is more hospitable? Jupiter or Saturn?

#2 2016-06-18 18:30:34

Re: The Case for Jupiter: Which is more hospitable? Jupiter or Saturn?

#3 2016-09-07 13:51:21

Re: The Case for Jupiter: Which is more hospitable? Jupiter or Saturn?

#4 2024-03-24 17:50:33

Re: The Case for Jupiter: Which is more hospitable? Jupiter or Saturn?

#5 2024-03-25 13:52:32

Re: The Case for Jupiter: Which is more hospitable? Jupiter or Saturn?

#6 2024-03-25 15:20:20

Re: The Case for Jupiter: Which is more hospitable? Jupiter or Saturn?

#7 2024-03-26 16:19:52

Re: The Case for Jupiter: Which is more hospitable? Jupiter or Saturn?

#8 2024-10-04 05:07:31

Re: The Case for Jupiter: Which is more hospitable? Jupiter or Saturn?

Board footer