Venus

SpaceNut · 2015-12-03 20:27:16

Tom's ring would be a suodo synchronous orbit with regards to the surface of venus.
http://www.astronoo.com/en/articles/syn … orbit.html
We do know that its the distance from the surface that makes it also a synchronous and not just the speed of orbit. That said just pretend that venus spins on a 24 hr clock to get the optimal distance for the ring to be built at. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geosynchronous_orbit

So why so cold Antius?

http://www.universetoday.com/97662/surp … tmosphere/

surface temperatures on this hot and hostile planet tops out at 735 Kelvin, or 462 degrees Celsius, ESA scientists say that a layer in the atmosphere about 125 km up has temperatures of around –175 degrees C, and may be cold enough for carbon dioxide to freeze out as ice or snow.

http://i2.wp.com/www.universetoday.com/ … R_2012.jpg

The temperature profile along the terminator for altitudes of 70–160 km above the surface of Venus.

http://www.universetoday.com/14306/temp … -of-venus/

surface temperature on Venus does not vary like it does here on Earth. On our planet, temperatures vary wildly due to the time of year and even more so based on the location on our planet. The hottest temperature ever recorded on Earth was 70.7°C in the Lut Desert of Iran in 2005. On the other end of the spectrum, the coldest temperature ever recorded on Earth was in Vostok, Antarctica at -89.2 C.
The only respite from the heat on Venus is to be found around 50 km into the atmosphere. It is at that point that temperatures and atmospheric pressure are equal to that of Earth’s. It is for this reason that some scientists believe that floating habitats could be constructed here, using Venus’ thick clouds to buoy the habitats high above the surface.

A Comparison Between Venus Observations and the VTGCM to Provide Interpretation of the Varying Temperatures, Winds, and CO Density Distributions

Venus: Atmospheric Circulation

Antius · 2015-12-04 08:20:18

If you want to terraform Venus to the point where people can actually access its surface (in environment suits) then you need to reduce the crushing pressure of its atmosphere. The only way that I can see to achieve that is to reduce temperature to the point where CO2 will liquefy on its surface. To liquefy most of the entire atmosphere (leaving 3 bars of nitrogen and 2bar CO2) you would need surface temperatures to reach -55C. Cool it down any more and the remaining CO2 would start to freeze out.

Whilst the idea of cloud cities sounds exciting, to make colonisation viable beyond relatively small outposts, requires that we build on the surface. The planet simply isn't valuable as a colonisation site unless we are able to access its minerals. We don't have to have breathable air to achieve that, but it does require tolerable temperatures and pressures. The sunshield itself would only need to do its stuff for a finite time, as liquefied CO2 would seep into the crust and react with minerals to form carbonates. Not sure how long that would take, but you would have to reduce CO2 to liquid and open the porosities in the planet's crust to achieve it in a reasonable time.

Last edited by Antius (2015-12-04 08:27:21)

Tom Kalbfus · 2015-12-04 15:40:46

Antius wrote:

If you want to terraform Venus to the point where people can actually access its surface (in environment suits) then you need to reduce the crushing pressure of its atmosphere. The only way that I can see to achieve that is to reduce temperature to the point where CO2 will liquefy on its surface. To liquefy most of the entire atmosphere (leaving 3 bars of nitrogen and 2bar CO2) you would need surface temperatures to reach -55C. Cool it down any more and the remaining CO2 would start to freeze out.
Whilst the idea of cloud cities sounds exciting, to make colonisation viable beyond relatively small outposts, requires that we build on the surface. The planet simply isn't valuable as a colonisation site unless we are able to access its minerals. We don't have to have breathable air to achieve that, but it does require tolerable temperatures and pressures. The sunshield itself would only need to do its stuff for a finite time, as liquefied CO2 would seep into the crust and react with minerals to form carbonates. Not sure how long that would take, but you would have to reduce CO2 to liquid and open the porosities in the planet's crust to achieve it in a reasonable time.

We don't need to terraform the entire planet to have access to its surface, we could wall off a portion of its atmosphere, say for instance the Arctic regions, up to and including the continent of Ishtar Terra. We then pump the gases out of that regions and dump them beyond the wall, leaving behind enough nitrogen, oxygen, and water to make that portion of the planet habitable. We can use an inflatable tower wall, we pump gases into it to support a wall that is higher than Venus' atmosphere, similar to an inflatable space elevator, except this space elevator is in the shape of a circular wall around Venus' North Pole, the wall can also block sunlight if desired or be made transparent. The material of the wall needs to be able to withstand intense Venusian heat on the outside, and perhaps radiate that heat into space using giant inflatable radiators. Solar power can then power a refrigeration cycle compressing gases towards the top of the wall/radiator to radiate heat into space, then the gases expand as they descend towards the surface to absorb more heat. that way we can terraform part of Venus' surface and build surface settlements under an Earthlike atmosphere inside the curtain wall!

Terraformer · 2015-12-05 03:40:15

Where, pray tell, do you intend to get all the diamond you'd need to do that?

If Venus had a 5 bar atmosphere, how hot would the surface be? Low enough for the carbonates to be stable, especially given plenty of cloud cover?

Tom Kalbfus · 2015-12-05 10:53:01

Terraformer wrote:

Where, pray tell, do you intend to get all the diamond you'd need to do that?
If Venus had a 5 bar atmosphere, how hot would the surface be? Low enough for the carbonates to be stable, especially given plenty of cloud cover?

I don't know that you would need diamond, we just need something to block the atmosphere from coming over the North Pole. I guess an accurate description would be an "inflatable atmospheric dam" it works just like a regular dam that holds back water, the principle is much the same, the dam simply has to rise higher above the Venusian surface that the Venusian Atmosphere, to minimize the airflow over the top, and of course air pumps will pump the excess back out again when that happens. The usual way to separate out carbon-dioxide with with refrigeration, cool it to dry ice as carbon-dioxide has a higher freeing point than does either nitrogen or oxygen, you cool the atmosphere and the carbon-dioxide separates out, and then release it back on the other side of the dam. If the dam is high enough the over flow rate should be manageable. I think the dam should be inflated with gases that are lighter than carbon-dioxide, perhaps nitrogen would be a good gas to use, the first thought was either hydrogen or helium, but I think nitrogen would serve better, Venus has quite a lot of it after Carbon dioxide, and you don't need to pressurize the nitrogen as much at the bottom as you would need to do with carbon-dioxide. Hydrogen and helium would tend to leak too much.

Antius · 2015-12-05 13:15:27

The dam would need to be at least 50km high and would need to resist the full pressure of the venusian atmosphere (900 tonnes per square metre). I don't see how that could work or be safe.

SpaceNut · 2015-12-05 20:17:10

Thanks for the reply Antius, I did try to search out the reply rather than pose more questions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide is this

Liquid carbon dioxide forms only at pressures above 5.1 atm; the triple point of carbon dioxide is about 518 kPa at −56.6 °C

which is the [triple point from the image at the link which is in Kelvin. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelvin [°C] = [K] − 273.15 the link for the triple point has all of that info on it as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_Venus

Composition

Carbon dioxide 96.5%
Nitrogen 3.5%
Sulfur dioxide 150 ppm
Argon 70 ppm
Water vapour 20 ppm
Carbon monoxide 17 ppm
Helium 12 ppm
Neon 7 ppm
Hydrogen chloride 0.1–0.6 ppm
Hydrogen fluoride 0.001–0.005 ppm

That would leave water icebergs floating in the liquid Co2 with no breathable atmosphere without processing the liquid via electrolysis and through sequestation of the carbon into tanks for later use.

Tom Kalbfus · 2015-12-07 12:19:04

Antius wrote:

The dam would need to be at least 50km high and would need to resist the full pressure of the venusian atmosphere (900 tonnes per square metre). I don't see how that could work or be safe.

Why not, there would be similar pressures inflating the dam, and since the dam would be filled with nitrogen, the air pressure within would go down less steeply with altitude than does the carbon-dioxide atmosphere. The pressure within will be only a little greater than the outside of the dam, yet the nitrogen-filled dam would rise higher than the Venusian Atmosphere, by the way the 55 km level is the one bar altitude of Venus, I think the dam would need to rise at least twice as high, about 100 km. So how high is that inflatable space elevator supposed to rise to? On Venus, the equivalent to sea level is 55 km above the surface..

knightdepaix · 2015-12-09 09:26:21

SpaceNut wrote:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_Venus
Composition
Carbon dioxide 96.5%
Nitrogen 3.5%
Sulfur dioxide 150 ppm
Argon 70 ppm
Water vapour 20 ppm
Carbon monoxide 17 ppm
Helium 12 ppm
Neon 7 ppm
Hydrogen chloride 0.1–0.6 ppm
Hydrogen fluoride 0.001–0.005 ppm
That would leave water icebergs floating in the liquid Co2 with no breathable atmosphere without processing the liquid via electrolysis and through sequestation of the carbon into tanks for later use.

Mars need sulfur as an element and in some versions of Martian global warming, needs chlorofluorocarbons. Venus' atmoshpere has these elements in sulfur dioxide, hydrogen chlorides and fluorides. From these compounds, Venus could make sulfur chlorides and fluorides -- especially sulfur hexafluoride. If Venus' atmosphere has chlorine and fluorine elements, is chloride and fluoride minerals mined-able on Venus ? If so, coupling with the vastly available carbon dioxide, chlorofluorocarbons, chlorofluorosulfurs and carbon dioxide can be sold to Mars as global warming agents. Venus could make use out of the water byproduct.

Tom Kalbfus · 2015-12-09 15:08:01

knightdepaix wrote:

SpaceNut wrote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_Venus
Composition
Carbon dioxide 96.5%
Nitrogen 3.5%
Sulfur dioxide 150 ppm
Argon 70 ppm
Water vapour 20 ppm
Carbon monoxide 17 ppm
Helium 12 ppm
Neon 7 ppm
Hydrogen chloride 0.1–0.6 ppm
Hydrogen fluoride 0.001–0.005 ppm
That would leave water icebergs floating in the liquid Co2 with no breathable atmosphere without processing the liquid via electrolysis and through sequestation of the carbon into tanks for later use.
Mars need sulfur as an element and in some versions of Martian global warming, needs chlorofluorocarbons. Venus' atmoshpere has these elements in sulfur dioxide, hydrogen chlorides and fluorides. From these compounds, Venus could make sulfur chlorides and fluorides -- especially sulfur hexafluoride. If Venus' atmosphere has chlorine and fluorine elements, is chloride and fluoride minerals mined-able on Venus ? If so, coupling with the vastly available carbon dioxide, chlorofluorocarbons, chlorofluorosulfurs and carbon dioxide can be sold to Mars as global warming agents. Venus could make use out of the water byproduct.

I would think Mars has plenty of its own Sulfur, its just that in the case of Mars, that sulfur tends to stay underground, as its volcanoes haven't been belching it out much lately as Venus has. Importing sulfur from Venus would not make much sense, and who needs the acid rain anyway?

SpaceNut · 2015-12-09 21:44:08

On Mars the rovers have also made tracks that have exposed it on the surface as well.

Tom Kalbfus · 2016-05-19 06:52:31

This is my idea of a Venus suspension bridge, it uses space elevators as its supporting cables. The shade part of the diagram comes later. It is generally understood that terraforming Venus would take a long time. In the meantime, humans will need a place to live. My Venus Suspension Bridge provides a taste of what Venus will eventually become at the end of a long terraforming project. It is an inverse ring habitat, like a giant version of the Stamford torus, except people live on the outside of the ring, not the inside. The ring rotates once every 24-hours, now this is not enough to support it against gravity at its current altitude, but the counterweight is just above the 24-hour orbit. A cable between the two links the outer ring with the inner ring. the residents on the surface of the inner ring enjoy Venusian gravity in a replica of what their planet will be at the equator, once the terraforming project is finished.

Antius · 2016-05-20 10:07:35

Tom Kalbfus wrote:

http://img05.deviantart.net/4e7c/i/2016 … a2waxr.png
This is my idea of a Venus suspension bridge, it uses space elevators as its supporting cables. The shade part of the diagram comes later. It is generally understood that terraforming Venus would take a long time. In the meantime, humans will need a place to live. My Venus Suspension Bridge provides a taste of what Venus will eventually become at the end of a long terraforming project. It is an inverse ring habitat, like a giant version of the Stamford torus, except people live on the outside of the ring, not the inside. The ring rotates once every 24-hours, now this is not enough to support it against gravity at its current altitude, but the counterweight is just above the 24-hour orbit. A cable between the two links the outer ring with the inner ring. the residents on the surface of the inner ring enjoy Venusian gravity in a replica of what their planet will be at the equator, once the terraforming project is finished.

Interesting idea. A long tube dropped down into the atmosphere from a high orbital body could literally suck the atmosphere up. Pumps would be needed at periodic intervals along the length of the tube with a high enough head to pump against the weight of the gas in Venus' gravity field. You wouldn't need a giant ring to do this, just a counter-weight with a propulsion system capable of countering the energy losses resulting from atmospheric drag. The effective exhaust velocity of the propulsion system would need to be high enough to counter both drag and the energy losses of lifting the atmosphere up to the ring/counter-weight height. Off the top of my head, I can’t work out what the effective exhaust velocity would need to be. But at 36,000km there would be plenty of solar energy.

I wonder what the minimum size of the set up would need to be? And what sort of material strength would be needed for a tube capable of stretching that distance in Venus’ gravity field? If we made the tube shorter and the orbit lower, static stresses would be lower, but orbital speed increases and drag losses on the tube increase. This implies abrasion. There is undoubtedly an optimum point, which balances static and dynamic stresses.

Last edited by Antius (2016-05-20 10:08:10)

Tom Kalbfus · 2016-05-21 08:01:50

Antius wrote:

Tom Kalbfus wrote:
http://img05.deviantart.net/4e7c/i/2016 … a2waxr.png
This is my idea of a Venus suspension bridge, it uses space elevators as its supporting cables. The shade part of the diagram comes later. It is generally understood that terraforming Venus would take a long time. In the meantime, humans will need a place to live. My Venus Suspension Bridge provides a taste of what Venus will eventually become at the end of a long terraforming project. It is an inverse ring habitat, like a giant version of the Stamford torus, except people live on the outside of the ring, not the inside. The ring rotates once every 24-hours, now this is not enough to support it against gravity at its current altitude, but the counterweight is just above the 24-hour orbit. A cable between the two links the outer ring with the inner ring. the residents on the surface of the inner ring enjoy Venusian gravity in a replica of what their planet will be at the equator, once the terraforming project is finished.
Interesting idea. A long tube dropped down into the atmosphere from a high orbital body could literally suck the atmosphere up. Pumps would be needed at periodic intervals along the length of the tube with a high enough head to pump against the weight of the gas in Venus' gravity field. You wouldn't need a giant ring to do this, just a counter-weight with a propulsion system capable of countering the energy losses resulting from atmospheric drag. The effective exhaust velocity of the propulsion system would need to be high enough to counter both drag and the energy losses of lifting the atmosphere up to the ring/counter-weight height. Off the top of my head, I can’t work out what the effective exhaust velocity would need to be. But at 36,000km there would be plenty of solar energy.
I wonder what the minimum size of the set up would need to be? And what sort of material strength would be needed for a tube capable of stretching that distance in Venus’ gravity field? If we made the tube shorter and the orbit lower, static stresses would be lower, but orbital speed increases and drag losses on the tube increase. This implies abrasion. There is undoubtedly an optimum point, which balances static and dynamic stresses.

I think that if we have the ability to build a space elevator on Earth, we could also build this, the material strengths of a Venusian Space elevator would be less than required for Earth. A 24-hour orbit is convenient for humans, it is fairly high, and whatever is lowered into the atmosphere is moving relatively slow, that is it wouldn't burn up due to atmospheric friction, and we can even make it work for us. What if for instance we lowered a flying wing into the atmosphere with this cable. The wing would act as a stabilizer, it would anchor the tether to Venus, as the wing is dragged through the atmosphere. Also the aerodynamic forces on the wing, can support additional weight in addition to what the cable supports, the cable actually tows the wing. The wing can be a spaceport, allowing access to space for people living on Venus. We would start with one space elevator just like we'd do for Earth. The space elevator provides easy access into space and easy access down into Venus' atmosphere so people can live in balloons and floating habitats of various sorts, and when they wish to leave, the space elevator is their exit out of there. Over time we construct multiple space elevators, the diagram I drew shows only a few of them. When we have enough space elevators, se can construct a suspension bridge in space, just above the atmosphere, completely encircling the planet, and we can lower pumps to extract the nitrogen and oxygen that we need, the hydrogen can come from space. While we are supplying water to the bridge, we can also wet the Venusian atmosphere, making its clouds more water based and less sulfuric acid. we'd have to extract the sulfur from them too eventually. Later on we'd expand the counter weigh to this ring so that it shades more and more of the planet below, and that is how we begin terraforming it. The suspension bridge would circle the planet once every 24 hours providing an Earthlike day for its inhabitants, but once the shades are fully extended, we provide solar powered artificial daylight to the planet on a 24-hour cycle.

Here is a map of terraformed Venus. Unlike this map, I don't really see a need for ice caps, or even to shade the polar regions. What if we allowed the Polar regions to get their full does of sunlight but shaded the parts of Venus between 60 degrees north and 60 degrees south. Because of the inclination of incoming sunlight, Venus at 60 degrees north and south get as much sunlight as the Earth does at its equator, and since polar regions typically have long days and nights anyway, why not let natural sunlight shine on these regions and we just shade the regions between 60 degrees north and south and provide artificial 24-hour day/night cycles there.

I see no reason to waste valuable real estate we worked so hard to create on glaciers, do you?

Venus%20Version%202.jpg
Here is a version of Venus with less water, the names are fictional of course. With less water we would have more land to live on, more coastline, and since we are artificially creating this, we can make sure that the land is sufficiently wet in spite of this, distributing the water can create a jungle planet with about 50% water coverage and more land available for habitation.

Tom Kalbfus · 2016-05-21 10:25:34

This suggests something. What if, by shading the regions around the equator, we freezed out the carbon-dioxide? We produce a region of carbon-dioxide ice (dry ice) around the equator and underneath the suspension bridge. Further out we have a region where water freezes out thereby wringing the atmosphere of moisture before reaching the region where carbon-dioxide freezes out. Recall that carbon-dioxide freezes at a higher temperature that nitrogen and oxygen, so we just make sure it doesn't get cold enough to freeze those gases, and we freeze separate out the carbon-dioxide from the atmosphere, leaving a little bit behind for the plant life to grow in the polar regions. As the plants convert carbon-dioxide to oxygen, we release some more carbon-dioxide from the frozen regions by warming it a little, the freed oxygen builds up in the atmosphere, and we carbonize the growing plant material and bury it underground, creating coal.

The plants continue to grow, we continue to carbonize the plant matter, and we release some more carbon-dioxide to replace that removed. As the oxygen level exceeds a certain amount, we import some hydrogen and use the excess oxygen to make water, and we repeat until we build up an ocean and run down our frozen carbon-dioxide reserves until it completely disappears, then we do that artificial daylight thing under the shades.

SpaceNut · 2016-05-21 17:52:55

I am thinking that the ring could hold the gasses that we syphon up from the atmosphere and that we could send the gasses that we do not want into a solar ion orbit thrust correction system to keep the ring where we want it....

Tom Kalbfus · 2016-05-21 20:39:55

Yep, CO2 could be used as reaction mass, probably wouldn't need much, as the outer ring would need to have more mass than the inner ring to balance it out, being just above orbital altitude, while the lower ring needs to be held up under almost full Venusian gravity. The inner ring is temporary housing until the planet is terraformed. One little problem that may occur, the initial Venusian atmosphere will carry heat from the lit portion of the planet to the shaded portion. What I'm trying to arrange is a cold trap for carbon-dioxide, the CO2 needs to freeze in one spot, while leaving the nitrogen in the atmosphere, maybe the whole planet needs to be cooled for this initially, and we need to have areas where it is slightly too warm for CO2 to freeze, and other areas that are colder where CO2 gets deposited. To illuminate the inner ring, there needs to be a gap in the shade ring, to let sunlight in, some will spill onto the planet as well, but that amount will be insignificant compared to the entire shaded portion. Once frozen out the atmosphere will be mostly nitrogen and trace amounts of carbon dioxide for the plant life. Another problem the planet's interior will still be quite hot, expect lots of geysers all over the planet where ever water settles and seeps underground, and volcanos erupting under Dry Ice sheets, wouldn't be helpful either!

Last edited by Tom Kalbfus (2016-05-21 20:41:10)

SpaceNut · 2016-06-20 20:45:46

Have we been looking at the planets atmosphere all wrong? ‘Electric Wind’ Can Strip Earth-like Planets of Oceans, Atmospheres

“Electric Wind” can strip Earth-like planets of oceans and atmospheres

knightdepaix · 2016-07-10 11:08:17

I want to ask this question: does exporting chemical elements from one planet to another make sense ?

Martian atmosphere is thin. If calculation for global warming on Mars for terraforming pushes for more gases, could CO2 and sulfur be exported from Venus to Mars ?

SpaceNut · 2016-07-10 11:50:23

Yes and No It has many dependant questions on how is it being Funded, Technology needed to gather plus transport, Then how much is reasonable for either direction of need as the value between colonies is greater for barter than that of returning it to earth......

Tom Kalbfus · 2016-07-15 23:24:59

What if we moved Venus using thousands of gravitational tugs cut out of Mercury?
Mercury's mass is 3.3011×10^23 kg
The Moon's mass is 7.342×10^22 kg
The difference is our reaction mass which comes to 256,690,000,000,000,000,000,000 kg

Mercury is a vacuum world, perhaps we could break it up into 1000 pieces each one of which has a mass of 3.3.11x10^20 kg and use 256,690,000,000,000,000,000 kg or each as reaction mass. We turn each piece into a giant solar powered spaceship each uses a mass driver, throwing material out the back to move forward and each passes in front of Venus. If we have these 1000 chunks pass in front of Venus every year, that means 2 to 3 pass in front every day, lets say 1 passes in front every 8 hours , generating an almost constant gravitational pull forward on Venus in tits orbit, these chunks cycle around and a round with Venus gravity flinging each chunk backwards with each pass, eventually after doing this long enough, we get down to the mass of Earth's Moon. If the reaction mass is expelled with the right velocity, the material left over is then assembled back together into a Moon for Venus. Venus ends up in a 360 day orbit around the Sun. If we set the radius at 92,072,400 miles, the orbital period would be 360 days with 30 day months.

We can use half of this material to push Earth further out, setting its radius to 94,107,300 miles for a year of 372 days (31 day months all), the difference in radii is 2,100,000 miles.

karov · 2016-07-16 01:34:30

http://www.worlddreambank.org/V/VENUS.HTM

see this. And the whole PLANETOCOPIA of Chris Wayan. Terraforming natural talent to level if ingeniousness!

The topic for less-then-Earth's water habitable planet very well developed.

btw, Question.:

Is a terraformed / habitable planet a habitat? or it contains habitats?

This is important in line with terraforming in general definitions.

Isn't it terraforming in general - production of ... land?

In the old sense of the word - human habitable land.

Tom Kalbfus · 2016-07-16 08:22:31

karov wrote:

http://www.worlddreambank.org/V/VENUS.HTM
see this. And the whole PLANETOCOPIA of Chris Wayan. Terraforming natural talent to level if ingeniousness!
The topic for less-then-Earth's water habitable planet very well developed.
btw, Question.:
Is a terraformed / habitable planet a habitat? or it contains habitats?
This is important in line with terraforming in general definitions.
Isn't it terraforming in general - production of ... land?
In the old sense of the word - human habitable land.

I read the site, very interesting, and it incorporates some of my ideas.

This one blocks all the natural sunlight reaching Venus, the outside is covered with Solar Collectors, the inside is covered with laser hologram projectors, The outer surface of this ring has more surface area than the planet below, it also has radiators on the outside to dump excess heat. In the inside are banks of lasers in seven different colors, red, orange, yellow, green blue, indigo, and violet, if you shine them into a prism with their beams converging at a certain angle, the prism will combine those beams, bending each wavelength by a different amount so that all seven beams exit the prism following the same path producing white light similar to sunlight, adjust the angles of these outgoing beams of light and they form an image of a white disk in the skies of Venus, it is a black featureless disk. (no sunspots) But who cares, it produces Earth day like levels of light, the only way you can tell it from natural sunlight is if you spit it with a prism, or wait for it to rain on a sunny day, the rainbow it produces would have 7 discreet colors instead of a continuous spectrum of colors as seen on Earth. You could add more lasers of course and there would be more colors in that rainbow, human eyes don't care when that light is combined, it is seen as white light, plants don't care much either. My shade idea is a temporary solution, it has to be maintained, if we want a more permanent solution we have to move Venus in its orbit and spin it up. I think the greater cost in energy would be to move Venus into an orbit that is further from the Sun. My preferred orbit is at 92,072,400 miles from the center of the Sun, since we are determining its orbit, we should make sure it is a very circular orbit at it stays at approximately this distance from the Sun, this would give Venus a 360 day year, advancing 1 degree in its orbit per day, and since we are doing this, spinning Venus up and giving it Earthlike seasons is a much smaller task than changing its orbit, as is importing all the hydrogen from Uranus to make oceans with. By the time Venus sits in its 360 day orbit, it should already have a 24-hour day, 90-day seasons, an ocean, and an oxygen-nitrogen atmosphere.

You would want to hurl the asteroids outside this 24-hour ring, it would still pull on the planet below and on the ring itself. the center of mass for the ring is also the center of mass for the planet since the ring is centered on the planet, the ring and planet's gravity will pull on each asteroid as it passes in front of both in their orbit around the Sun, the gravity will bend the path of each asteroid, and the planet and rings will get accelerated slightly, and move into a slightly further out orbit from the Sun. if we keep on doing this with enough asteroids, then Venus and its occlusion ring will spiral outward into a wide orbit until it eventually reaches its 360 day orbit at 92,072,400 miles. We can do the same with Earth at the same time, giving our planet a 372 day year with months that are all 31 days long, and by the way help fight global warming as well! This keeps the minimum distance between planets are around 2,000,000 miles. If Earth were to be seen from Venus, its disk would appear as half the size as our Moon does in our skies, during this conjunction, the tidal influence it would have on Venus during this close pass would be similar to our own Moon at high tide, and no more, and this only during a conjection which would occur rarely. In fact lets calculate it. If Venus takes 360 days to go around the Sun and Earth takes 372 days, the difference is 12 days. 360 degrees divided by 12 days equals 30 years So every 30 Earth years, there would be a conjunction between Earth and Venus and both planets would experience high tides, Earth a little more since it has a Moon. Venus might have what's left over from Mercury after we use its reaction mass to move both planets. I figure we can create a moon sized body with the left over rubble and put it in orbit around Venus to give it a 30-day cycled of lunar phases just like the Earth has.

Last edited by Tom Kalbfus (2016-07-16 09:10:44)

Void · 2016-08-03 23:26:16

Karov,

I enjoyed your post and it's reference, because it seemed more reasonable/attainable than your previous more advanced mentions of the "Hall Weather Machine".

http://www.worlddreambank.org/V/VENUS.HTM
see this. And the whole PLANETOCOPIA of Chris Wayan. Terraforming natural talent to level if ingeniousness!
The topic for less-then-Earth's water habitable planet very well developed.
btw, Question.:
Is a terraformed / habitable planet a habitat? or it contains habitats?
This is important in line with terraforming in general definitions.
Isn't it terraforming in general - production of ... land?
In the old sense of the word - human habitable land.

I see that it might be tried on Earth in a very limited way, which might produce very valuable protections for the planet.

I think that Venus is the world which might be modified the most by it. One reason being that the floatation gas (Nitrogen?) would be much more easily retained by "Bubbles" than would Hydrogen, which would likely be needed to be used on Earth.

I am thinking at least two layers. The upper layer being to shield the planet from excessive sunshine, particularly U.V.
This would reduce the continued production of Sulfuric Acid from water vapor and Sulfur Dioxide.
A lower layer might contain cloud seeding devices which last for some time.

I would suppose that Sulfuric Acid can be super cooled just like water vapor. I suggest that this lower layer of bubbles would float to that region and nucleate ice of Sulfuric Acid and would get weighted down, and so would descend into the warmer atmosphere, to melt and drip drops of the liquid which would fall further to below the cloud deck as Verga, and there the Sulfuric Acid might decompose into water vapor and Sulfur Dioxide. If not ice of Sulfuric Acid, then at least condensing a liquid sufficiently to create drops of Verga for the same purpose.

The two layers then might reduce the acidity of the cloud deck. And of course your weather machine might cool the planet and drive the cloud layer lower in the atmosphere.

If I read the article correctly the plan would be to have a factory which would manufacture these bubbles. This is more reasonable than the more futuristic notion of self replicating bubbles. Therefore I can support it. I would presume that the factory would float in the atmosphere, and would primarily manufacture the bubbles from atmospheric gasses.

Alright, that's enough, I am sure if the above is reasonable, then every member here would have their own version of what else should be done to Venus, so I won't go there.

Last edited by Void (2016-08-03 23:27:50)

SpaceNut · 2016-08-04 20:17:44

With the use of domed habitats we have some experience thou its not quite the one we want in that it was a borderline condition that does not represent mars conditions so it needs more trials to prove we can do this style of life supoort or we are forced to consider one that is not closed for making the conditions for life extendable for longer periods of time for man.

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#276 2015-12-03 20:27:16

Re: Venus

#277 2015-12-04 08:20:18

Re: Venus

#278 2015-12-04 15:40:46

Re: Venus

#279 2015-12-05 03:40:15

Re: Venus

#280 2015-12-05 10:53:01

Re: Venus

#281 2015-12-05 13:15:27

Re: Venus

#282 2015-12-05 20:17:10

Re: Venus

#283 2015-12-07 12:19:04

Re: Venus

#284 2015-12-09 09:26:21

Re: Venus

#285 2015-12-09 15:08:01

Re: Venus

#286 2015-12-09 21:44:08

Re: Venus

#287 2016-05-19 06:52:31

Re: Venus

#288 2016-05-20 10:07:35

Re: Venus

#289 2016-05-21 08:01:50

Re: Venus

#290 2016-05-21 10:25:34

Re: Venus

#291 2016-05-21 17:52:55

Re: Venus

#292 2016-05-21 20:39:55

Re: Venus

#293 2016-06-20 20:45:46

Re: Venus

#294 2016-07-10 11:08:17

Re: Venus

#295 2016-07-10 11:50:23

Re: Venus

#296 2016-07-15 23:24:59

Re: Venus

#297 2016-07-16 01:34:30

Re: Venus

#298 2016-07-16 08:22:31

Re: Venus

#299 2016-08-03 23:26:16

Re: Venus

#300 2016-08-04 20:17:44

Re: Venus

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