A nuclear event - Do you expect one in your lifetime?

Cobra Commander · 2003-02-21 22:21:04

I am sure there is plenty of upset people in Saddam's entourage. Potential treators which could make possible a commnando operation "a la James Bond".

Apparently there was a coup in th works in '95. A small group of iraqi military officers reportedly made contact with CIA operatives in the country regarding the operation, seeking little more than America's blessing and assurances that the US wouldn't come to Saddam's aid (a reasonable fear from their perspective).
Though the CIA was all for it, the Clinton Administration refused to respond and the operation fell apart. So much for the Iraqi people deposing Saddam themselves. If we want Saddam dead without invasion, we have to assassinate him ourselves. Is that really more palatable, idealogically speaking, than an up-front attack?

But I am afraid the " prehistoric club" tactic will prevail. This primitive tactic can be pretty efficient: look at the russian invasion of Berlin in 1945. Just 200000 civilian casualaties, pfew, nothing...

I'm sure you didn't mean it this way, but I can't help but take some offense at a comparison between American troops invading Iraq and Soviet troops invading Germany. The Red Army's conduct in Germany was one of the most shameful chapters of the war. Rarely do the history books mention the "rape of Europe", but our ally was as bad if not worse than our enemy.

Whatever position anyone has on American military action in Iraq, American control will be a better political climate for the average Iraqi than the current regime. If American troops ever conduct themselves in the same manner as the Soviets in WWII I will renounce my US citizenship.

Palomar · 2003-02-22 07:26:00

The Red Army's conduct in Germany was one of the most shameful chapters of the war. Rarely do the history books mention the "rape of Europe", but our ally was as bad if not worse than our enemy.

*Yeah; and I presume you mean "rape of Europe" both figuratively and literally (correct if mistaken). I read a book in my early teens about a young German girl who was made to join the Hitler Youth Movement. She was rather naive, very young. The Nazi regime collapsed, as we all know, and when the Red Army came in they went on group-rape sprees. This girl (Hansi, I believe her name was; long time ago, not sure) was very skinny and rather plain. She and a group of female companions were caught in a situation of living in a barn or something along those lines...the local Red Army troop found out and raped them all repeatedly, except Hansi (for once in her life she was glad to be skinny and unattractive). She went into detail about her emotional pain on seeing her friends suffer in this manner, and related another girl pleading with Hansi to hold her hand while she was repeatedly brutally violated by the Red soldiers. Hansi did hold the girl's hand, and her continued emotional pain at remembering that incident while writing it for the book was more than obvious. Some of the girls committed suicide later, others were gang raped again later. It was horrible. She later came into an American camp, somehow; the GIs treated her well, brought her breakfast, gave her bubblegum, etc., and she claims not one of the U.S. soliders laid a hand on her or made any sort of advance. She later married a U.S. soldier and moved to the States.

I seem to recall that the Red Army was also notorious for killing peasants at whim, especially hanging them, burning homes, etc. Of course, they aren't alone in history of committing atrocities on the basis of the "to the victor goes the spoils (read: we can do whatever we want and to hell with you)" mentality.

--Cindy

dickbill · 2003-02-22 10:08:20

[color=#000000:post_uid0]

"Though the CIA was all for it, the Clinton Administration refused to respond and the operation fell apart. So much for the Iraqi people deposing Saddam themselves. If we want Saddam dead without invasion, we have to assassinate him ourselves. Is that really more palatable, idealogically speaking, than an up-front attack?"[/quote:post_uid0]
Yes, I saw the show on history channel. The CIA missed a good oportunity here, but it's always easyer to remake history after it happened. Also I think that yes, it's more palatable to remove Saddam than an upfront attack. With gaz, like the russians used in their recent delivery of the hostages, a commando might actually neutralize Saddam whithout having to kill him. I strongly believe the commandos should not kill Saddam Hussein, but bring him alive in front of the international penal court (IPC) for his many crimes.
Like it or not, the world changes, Look at Milosevitch, he was a legally elected leader before, look at Ariel Sharon. Mr Sharon might have to face the international penal court for his past decisions. He might deny any war crimes, it's his right, but will see what happen.
In 10/20 years, who can be sure than GW Bush might not have to face himself the IPC because some wounded Iraki's civilian have access, ironically thanks to Bush himself, to the IPC ?
Yes the world changes. The leaders of the country have to be carefull now. A decision taken now legally can be considered irrelevant or illegal many years later.

"Whatever position anyone has on American military action in Iraq, American control will be a better political climate for the average Iraqi than the current regime. If American troops ever conduct themselves in the same manner as the Soviets in WWII I will renounce my US citizenship."

Don't be silly, I am pretty sure the US troops won't do it on purpose of course, but the iraki's soldiers might force them to shoot trough civilians. The US should not expect a Lord-of-the Ring-like situation with a simple decision to take. Remember, we are not in 1945, you don't need 200 thousands civilian casualties here, just a dozen of kids dismembred and carefully broadcasted world wide would have the same psychological effect.
If a policeman shoot a criminal through an hostage, and the policeman is not in danger himself, the policeman endorses responsability. If you are a US soldier and your superior ask you to shoot a missile and you know there are civilian below the target, what do you do ? refuse and take the risk of a martial court ? knowing that later on, the international mediatic pressure will grant your decision as being the right decision and forcing the US military autority to apologize ? Expect things like that rather than an childish situation.
Things are complex here, this is why I believe this is not a job for the army, but for some kind of smart "police/commandos" intervention.[B][/color:post_uid0]

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