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#1 2015-12-24 15:27:18

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 5,091

Mars City - Your vision?

Elon Musk has been talking recently about the creation of a Mars City being a very realistic prospect.

I thought it might be interesting if people here gave their vision of such a city.

Here's my conception of the first Mars City, 20 years after the initial landing.

I think the vibe of this first city on Mars will have elements of a futuristic American University Campus, a company town, an all-inclusive resort and an Antarctic Base.

I imagine the oldest structures will be the original surface habs – maybe 5-6 in number each housing about 6 people (with no rain and no strong winds, they survive well).  They are all connected by pressurised corridors.

These habs will form  a natural central city square, with roads leading out in several directions. Really these roads will be more like trails.   They will have been cleared of boulders and will have  either side marker stones painted white (or maybe a naturally pale colour). 

Although there is no vegetation growing in the open air, there are individual transparent plant “booths” at intervals around the square, packed with vegetation growing inside, together with artificial trees and hedges, giving a decidedly Earth-like feel to this part of the city.  There are brick paved sidewalks  and a town clock (a pillar-like structure showing the sol date and time plus weather data).
Other areas of settlement will include pressurised farm hab domes not far from the central square, and numerous subterranean habs (linked by pressurised tunnels), which are barely visible from the surface.

Some two decades after the first landing, the total population fluctuates around the 400 with most people being resident for between 2 and 6 years before returning to Earth.

A recently completed structure is the Great Dome  – the first rigid dome to be built on Mars (from  mainly indigenous materials).  This pressurised dome (with a diameter of nearly 100 metres)  provides an exercise and meeting area, with plenty of natural vegetation imported from Earth: palms, ferns,  cacti, trees and shrubs with a maze of paths.  It is largely constructed from in situ materials.  There is a café and restaurant area which is very popular.   The Dome serves as cinema, concert hall and assembly rooms.

There is a smaller dome nearing completion: this is the Gymdome, which will house a full array of exercise and small scale sports facilities.

Other important buildings include the Transport Centre (where the 2-10 seater community vehicles are located) and the Medical Centre. 
Set somewhat apart from the main settlement area you find the photovoltaic panel field which provides most of the power for the city: row upon row of panels, tended by robot vehicles which constantly brush and spray the panel surfaces clean.   Adjacent to the photovoltaic field is a methane production facility (extracting hydrogen from water and oxygen from the CO2 in the Mars atmosphere), which feed the tanks where the methane is stored. The  gas turbines draw on the tanks to produces electric power when the photovoltaic fields are not producing sufficient power (at night, or during severe dust storms).   
Even further away is the Space Flight Centre – which its clearly marked circular landing zone, its rocket fuel facilities and its reception hab.

The breakdown for activity within the City is:

5% (20) Administration (Governor and staff).  Planning and resource allocation; licensing; dispute resolution; earth communications oversight. 
10% (40) Life Support (production and maintenance)
7.5%  (30) Space Flight Centre
7.5% (30) Energy and Industrial Production  (solar power, methane production,  iron and steel, glass making, and brick making).
20% (80) Construction
10% (40) Mining
10% (40) Farming and food processing.
15% (60) University and Science Projects
5% (20)  Exploration Projects
10% (40) Other (tourism)

University Hall is located on a rise overlooking the settlement.   Here post-grad students study Mars phenomena,  with a big focus on geology.

You won’t see many people walking about the City – just  a few technicians and construction workers.  Most people who need to move from one part of the city to another do so in small pressurised vehicles.  A lot of work is also undertaken in pressurised vehicles e.g. diggers and haulage vehicles.

The pressurised vehicles enter designated air lock pods connected to hab areas, so that the Mars can enter the vehicles without the need to get into EVA suits.

The small number of tourists who visit Musk City (as it was recently designated) enjoy a city tour when they first arrive that takes in the Governor’s House,  the Great Dome, and a visit to the nearby ice crater where robot vehicles mine the water ice used by the City’s residents (once it has been purified at the Life Support Centre).  Another notable feature of the tour are the Mars Sculpture Park and the  Mars Arts Centre.  Here are displayed works designed by leading Earth based artists using Mars materials, 3D printing and local construction.

Other places of interest  on the outskirts of the city include:

1.    The Artificial Gravity Centre.  This is where people who are suffering low gravity syndrome (LGS) go to receive treatment in an artificial 1G (or higher) environment.  There is capacity for up to 60 people to experience the gravity- equivalent centrifugal force in any one Sol (ie a 7 hour period per sol for each individual).

2.    The Golf Course. Golf on Mars involves use of a robot arm extending from a pressurised vehicle to drive the ball (much larger than Earth Golf’s ball) which is controlled from inside but is otherwise quite similar, though played on a much larger course, taking in a number of spectacular craters.

3.    The Long Road.  This is the trail over 200 kms long leading to an eastern arm of the  Valles Mariensis – one of Mars’s most powerful tourist attractions.

4.    The Industrial Centre.  Here the colonists produce, on a small scale (using scaled down machinery and 3D printers) such items as: steel , bricks, plastics, basalt products,  electric motors,  solar reflectors and concentrators,  farm implements, turbines and boilers.

5.    The Mine Zone Area – where iron ore, basalt and other materials are mined over a 20 sq km area.

Some of the cultural aspects of the city that are notable include:

(a)    The absence of money.  The Mars residents mostly receive a regular salary that is paid on Earth.  A certain portion of their salary will be deducted for living expenses on Mars as a regular monthly or annual payment.  In return for this “Standard Charge” as it is known, people receive free services on Mars.  For some retail  items – e.g. clothes and luxury items -  there is a rationing points system with a certain number of points allocated to each resident.  However, most facilities (life support, water, accommodation, food, transport, entertainment, heating and light) are provided free of charge without rationing.   

(b)    There is no discernible system of criminal justice: no courts, police or prisons. However the Governor who administers the city with the help of an elected council (elected by all permanent residents of Mars – permanent being determined as staying longer than 2 years) does have the power to banish individuals to Earth.  There is no appeal against such a ruling.  Although there are no Police,  there are several officers under the Governor who have an inspection and enforcement role. The Earth based Mars Consortium controls the finances of the colony and approves the development plan followed by the Governor in allocating resources.  Most people working on Mars are either employees of the Consortium or the University.

(c)    The main language is English, the international language of academia , although people from all over planet Earth are represented.   However Mars English is producing some neologisms and  phrases to Mars.

(d)    The University dominates the cultural life of the city as one of the two main employers and a lead investor in the planet; it is also a key focus of community life.

(e)    A small number of the Mars colonists, probably no more than 50, are what are known as “stayers” - people who intend to live permanently on Mars, without returning to Earth.  A number work in the Farm Habs or on Life Support Maintenance in return for waiving of the Standard Charge.  There are few licensed homesteads operating outside the main city area.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#2 2015-12-24 19:26:27

IanM
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From: Chicago
Registered: 2015-12-14
Posts: 276

Re: Mars City - Your vision?

I imagine a city, not necessarily the first on Mars, that is more industrially than educationally based; I'm not saying education won't be important to these colonists, as they'd initially be, or descended from, some of the more educated Earthlings, and such education would be passed on, but the backbone would be less eds and meds and more either natural resources or manufacturing, or a combination of the two. There might also be services to prevent it from going the way of the Rust Belt (although it is on the Rust Planet haha), but ultimately this means that there might be a local University, but one which does not influence local culture nearly as much as in Louis's city. 

This city is otherwise initially almost identical to Louis's city. I'll detail here how it starts to diverge a it matures.

I imagine that, like Louis's city, it would originate under the provenance of a Earth-based consortium that initially finances and controls it. However, it would gain independence, whether by peaceful or violent means here irrelevant, within its first fifty years, as such consortium becomes increasingly distant to local affairs, and thus possibly resented.

As of 20 years since its founding, it would likely have far more than 400 inhabitants, but, unless it's on a rare-on-Earth resource mine, it would likely experience only steady growth, and thus be at most moderately sized by Earth standards, although it would be a contender for the largest on Mars.

I imagine an infrastructure based on a grid system of roads subject to local geography, much like Manhattan and especially my hometown of Chicago. The city would be built for expansion, and thus a single dome would be unsuitable for it. I imagine a series of many modular square domes, usually being one city block in size but often being bigger for agricultural purposes. They would have an entrance on each side, whereby they'd be connected to each other, allowing the city to grow at a natural pace without having to replace an entire dome at certain points. As for buildings themselves, government buildings would be at the center, with industry being at one section and agricultural homesteads at another, with residences placed where suited. It would be mostly, if not entirely, overground, essentially an Earth city on Mars. The government would initially be a Mayor/Governor appointed by the consortium, and post-independence an elected Mayor and City Council, the latter mostly by wards.

Using the five same points as Louis:
a) Money would initially be absent from the colony much for the same reasons as it is in Louis's city; there is little if any external interaction with an outside economy, and a points rationing system would thus be more useful. "He who will not work shall not eat" could very well be a factor in such a system, but I assume that the initial colonists are motivated enough where this isn't an issue. However, as it's an industrial city, there will inevitably be exports from it to Earth, and thus plenty of exposure to the outside economic universe. As such, even if only for the travelers on business trips or tourists, currency becomes a must; in the absence of any sufficiently scarce resource to back the currency, it would almost certainly be fiat, and thus backed by the colony's economy. To be completely honest, however, I think the colony would use the United States Dollar or a similar highly-used currency, at least until "nationalism" makes an independent currency symbolically desirable.
b) Criminal Justice would also not be an issue with the initial colonists, who all know each other, thus making the shame of engaging in criminal justice both a sufficient deterrent and a punishment in its own right to stop most crime. However, as the colony grows larger and people become more distant, some sort of codified rules would be necessary; the actual contents thereof are irrelevant here, belonging rather to the Dorsa Brevia subfora, but such criminal offenses, procedure, and punishments would initially be as in Louis's city, some sort of semi-summary judgment by an executive, until there are enough people to sustain a judicial branch, Department of Corrections, legal profession, etc., thereafter becoming much like on Earth. Whether it would be Common Law, as in the Anglosphere, or Civil Law, as in most of the rest of Earth, would likely be based on the predominant nationality/culture of the colonists.
c) English would likely be used as a lingua franca, as on Earth. Depending on how many nationalities are represented and how diverse they are, a pidgin might develop. Neologisms would also develop.
d) Industries would dominate the culture, being collectively the sole employer other than the consortium or homesteads.
e) There would likely be a far higher proportion of stayers; as they are the Martian working class, and especially if technology allows them to contact loved ones on Earth remotely, there is little if any reason for them to ever return other than on vacation.


The Earth is the cradle of the mind, but one cannot live in a cradle forever. -Paraphrased from Tsiolkovsky

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#3 2015-12-24 19:55:50

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,522

Re: Mars City - Your vision?

We did discuss much of the thoughts in the old foothold/teohold topics in the past but not sure how much survived the great crash of newmars and even of Red colony......which has never come back. Marsdrive CEO has rights to the data but the forum has an elusive virus that once reactivated goes nuts.....

louis wrote:

The breakdown for activity within the City is:

5% (20) Administration (Governor and staff).  Planning and resource allocation; licensing; dispute resolution; earth communications oversight. 
10% (40) Life Support (production and maintenance)
7.5%  (30) Space Flight Centre
7.5% (30) Energy and Industrial Production  (solar power, methane production,  iron and steel, glass making, and brick making).
20% (80) Construction
10% (40) Mining
10% (40) Farming and food processing.
15% (60) University and Science Projects
5% (20)  Exploration Projects
10% (40) Other (tourism)

Did I miss the definition of the number that is in the (*).....

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#4 2015-12-24 19:59:25

IanM
Moderator
From: Chicago
Registered: 2015-12-14
Posts: 276

Re: Mars City - Your vision?

SpaceNut wrote:

Did I miss the definition of the number that is in the (*).....

He said that the total population of the colony would be around 400, so I assume it's relative to that.


The Earth is the cradle of the mind, but one cannot live in a cradle forever. -Paraphrased from Tsiolkovsky

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#5 2015-12-24 20:21:22

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,522

Re: Mars City - Your vision?

Thank you IanM;

I see that there is alot of dead weight in the numbers, if you are not providing a service that creates the basics of food, water, oxygen, power, or direct searching for materials to expand construction and operations. The colonists have not even grown to the point that they can use all of Mars and are still in a foothold condition still digging in like a tick.....

So looking at the grouping of those that support all versus those that do not....
group support:
10% (40) Life Support (production and maintenance)
7.5% (30) Energy and Industrial Production  (solar power, methane production,  iron and steel, glass making, and brick making).
20% (80) Construction
10% (40) Mining
10% (40) Farming and food processing.
total: 230

Non support:
5% (20) Administration (Governor and staff).  Planning and resource allocation; licensing; dispute resolution; earth communications oversight. 
7.5%  (30) Space Flight Centre
15% (60) University and Science Projects
5% (20)  Exploration Projects
10% (40) Other (tourism)
total: 270

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#6 2015-12-24 20:44:31

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 5,091

Re: Mars City - Your vision?

That's right Ian.  A very conservative figure, compared with Musk's plans for a city of 80,000! I think Mars can naturally grow to 100,000 in a few decades but the secret to achieving that is developing ISRU resources: if Musk has a plan for doing that, I don't think we've really heard it yet.

IanM wrote:
SpaceNut wrote:

Did I miss the definition of the number that is in the (*).....

He said that the total population of the colony would be around 400, so I assume it's relative to that.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#7 2015-12-24 20:50:53

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 5,091

Re: Mars City - Your vision?

SpaceNut,

The way I view Mars development is that you are doing two things at once: you are generating revenue to fund the interplanetary transits and importation to Mars of materials necessary to development and you are getting on with ISRU on the Mars surface. So I don't view setting up a University on Mars as unproductive - it will generate hundreds of millions of dollars each year to fund transits and also employ people on Mars.

This would only be two decades in.  Within 50-100 years I would envisage a much bigger expansion towards a community of 100,000 which would be my target for an independent, largely self-sufficient civilisation i.e. one that could survive the complete destruction of Earth.   

SpaceNut wrote:

Thank you IanM;

In response to post #5


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#8 2015-12-24 21:19:39

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 5,091

Re: Mars City - Your vision?

Many interesting angles in your post, Ian.

My comments:

1.  400 doesn't sound much until you "do the math" as the saying goes (as in how many launches would be required in order to ensure not just the survival of colonists on Mars but their ability to expand the colony).  I am a great Musk fan but I think he is a bit of a romantic when it comes to this figure of 80,000. It is conceivable that 80,000 people might be able to pay $500,000 and might want to settle permanently on Mars. But 80,000 people who have the necessary fitness, courage, resilience, intelligence and so on?  No doubt you are familiar with Tom Wolfe's book "The Right Stuff". The "right stuff" is pretty rare. I think creating a city of 400 within two decades (10 launch windows) would be be straining our abilities. Once you have a kind of critical mass of ISRU on Mars, the ability to welcome enthusiastic colonists will expand hugely.  However,  there are still a lot of unknowns - particularly how well humans do on a personal health level in one third G and whether they can reproduce healthily in one third G.  Old people are a huge resource drain on a community. It seems to me far more sensible in the first few decades to simply replace young people (as in under 45) with more young people on a regular basis, rather than try and cope with an ageing population in a difficult environment.

2.  Tourists in all-inclusive resorts don't need to spend money, and I think the same will apply to tourists on Mars.  Currency will just be an irrelevancy in the early stages.  However,  there will come a point at which Mars will need to develop its own currency to stabilise its economy and its trade with Earth. 

3. I probably did underplay the industrial and commercial aspects in my sketch.  I do think there is great potential for developing commercial enterprises on Mars e.g. final assembly of Rolex watches to be sold at mega prices on Earth. So, yes I think I would revise that if doing it again.

4. I think with Mars's origins, any system of law will be codified. However, on the other hand, I think there will be a huge pressure towards cultural conformity in the early decades e.g. not getting very inebriated on drink or drugs for instance. It's the equivalent of being on a plane - where there is a high level of conformity to rules. You can't have people going crazy in an environment where a broken window is likely to lead to death.

5. I don't think Stayers will be important in the early decades. But when Mars becomes a relatively pleasant place to live e.g. once people know they can raise a healthy family safely, and there are large domes (or other pressurised environments such as covered gorges) where people can enjoy a sense of space, and also people can see that they can lead very productive and satisfying lives with a high standard of living - well then clearly there will be a strong inflow of people from Earth to Mars. 


IanM wrote:

I imagine a city
In response to post # 2


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#9 2015-12-24 21:59:16

IanM
Moderator
From: Chicago
Registered: 2015-12-14
Posts: 276

Re: Mars City - Your vision?

Thank you for your feedback, Louis.

1) The way you put it, a colony of initially 400 makes sense. With regards to "the right stuff", trying to control that with children born in the colony is dangerously close to eugenics, but I realize I might have been overly optimistic with reproduction, and few of the colonists in practice would be natives. Especially prior to the layman having any comfort in a harsh environment, most of those willing are either hardcore civilians and/or professional/governmental astronauts. I also took a Mars One view of it being a one-way trip, which, while IMO ideal, is also unfeasible. In practice, I think most colonists would voluntarily return at old age.

2) While true, the resort would likely still want to make some profit somehow. That being said, a debit/credit card, or for the old-fashioned even a Traveler's Check issued in the tourist's native currency, would likely suffice, thus making a currency moot until economic output becomes serious. Criminal penalties often involve fines, but until a currency is developed this can also be simply replaced with a point-rationing system, fines being levied in points.

4) I personally think it'll be based in large part on the dominant nationality/culture of the colony. It would be useful, and indeed natural to those from the Anglosphere, to have common law fill in the gaps of codification, so to speak having common-law mortar with statutory bricks to form the wall of law. However, that leads to such nebulousness as common-law offenses and common-law marriage, which might be abolished by statute. Though, as you said, a lot of it will be dictated by unwritten social norms, as I said earlier.

In conclusion, I thought of a more mature colony, in that stayers are a sizeable part, if not the majority, of the populace, and a more libertarian colony, wherein the colonists are far more individually autonomous, which is indeed an indicator of maturity. I still stand by such a vision, and indeed still think of it as expanding enough such that a single dome would be constrictive, and thus also stand by the small modular dome model, but have pushed back the timeline upon hearing your remarks.


The Earth is the cradle of the mind, but one cannot live in a cradle forever. -Paraphrased from Tsiolkovsky

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#10 2015-12-24 22:20:51

RobS
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From: South Bend, IN
Registered: 2002-01-15
Posts: 1,701
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Re: Mars City - Your vision?

I am not going to speculate about the size after 20 years, but whatever that exists won't be in disconnected pressurized structures. Everything will be connected together so you can walk from one to another; no need to use pressurize vehicles to reach something on a hill. There won't be an outdoor city square; do you want to spend 30 to 45 minutes putting on a pressure suit to go walk around it, then even more time to get the Martian dust off your suit so you can go back inside? All structures will also be covered with several meters of ice or regolith, also, to reduce the cosmic ray dosage. If there are children there (if that's possible from the point of view of health), you have to create an environment where the radiation levels are low.

I suspect there will be money there once (1) people can buy a coffee, (2) people want a hairdo or a pedicure (once you have 400 people, someone will have to cut hair, and so some people will want it done nice). Of course, the money may only be credit cards.  "Stayers" may want to buy housing.

The various vocational percentages given have to do with the rate of population growth. If the population is growing considerably every opposition, you will need a lot of construction workers. You will also want a good number of health care workers because there will be unexpected problems with low gravity. People will be using muscles differently and there may be a need for vocational rehabilitation.

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#11 2015-12-25 08:39:31

louis
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From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 5,091

Re: Mars City - Your vision?

Yes, I don't disagree with anything you say.  I suppose I would envision that there are some separate areas of the city where habs are connected by pressurised tunnels (though still with air locks - I don't think you can have the whole city under a single pressure system, as that would be to invite a catastrophe if there was a sudden depressurisation event at one location).  I would envisage the separate areas of the city would be connected by pressurised vehicles which start off in air locked bays.  So, at no point do you have to don an EVA suit.

I am not sure a barber or hair stylist = use of money.  There were/are army barbers who provide a free service within organisations.

I think the need for a Mars currency will come about as the economy gets more complicated and we see the development of Mars-based firms.  I think you are right that cash will probably never be used - it will all be on debit/credit cards or mobile phone equivalents.

I certainly agree the various vocational percentages will change as the colony develops. 

RobS wrote:

I am not going

In response to post #10


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#12 2015-12-25 17:27:20

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,522

Re: Mars City - Your vision?

louis I feel that everyone must contribute to the greater good of all, particularly in the realm of life support ..... everything else comes after that commitment is met. The colony will need 24hr around the clock coverage on life support by all staff that is there.

I know what its like to be the sole source provider for the basic of life support and that is while the others are just doing what they do for the day.. it does take its toll on how you view those that are not working in the same manner. The acedemic fields can share just like those that we would have be a worker and the worker should also share in doing the acedemic fields as well.

Sure it would be nice to have some sort of a credit/debt to help control the bartering that will enevitably happen for non life support functions that are extra's, as we will want the same comforts as if we were home.

The quauntity to transport is only a size issue of the transporter that needs to be constructed and outfitted for the purpose of getting them all there safe.

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#13 2015-12-25 18:29:10

Tom Kalbfus
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Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Mars City - Your vision?

IanM wrote:
SpaceNut wrote:

Did I miss the definition of the number that is in the (*).....

He said that the total population of the colony would be around 400, so I assume it's relative to that.

that is more like a hamlet, or a thorp, not a city!
A hamlet has a population of 1 to 999
A village has a population from about 1000 to 5000
A town has a population of about 5000 to 20,000
A city has a population  of 20,000+

I think a city will try to reproduce the outdoors indoors, it will simultaneously try to make efficient use of space, and use extensive holography to make the insides of city domes appear to be outdoors on an Earthlike planet, extensive use of virtual reality is also probable. Most of the physical work would be accomplished by robot, people would rarely go outside, repairs on facilities outside would be done by robots.

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#14 2015-12-25 18:37:01

Tom Kalbfus
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Posts: 4,401

Re: Mars City - Your vision?

louis wrote:

Yes, I don't disagree with anything

post #11

RobS wrote:

I am not going

post #10

Actually a small hab will depressurize a more quickly through the same size hole.  As you increase the volume of air have less surface area in proportion to volume if you use spheres, rather than a tickety tack collection of habs connected by tunnels. You want to minimize the amount of surface area exposed to the outside. the more surface area you have, the higher the probability of atmosphere leaks to the outside.

Last edited by Tom Kalbfus (2015-12-25 18:38:01)

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#15 2015-12-25 18:41:07

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 5,810
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Re: Mars City - Your vision?

In the 1980s I was a member of a medieval recreation group called the Society for Creative Anachronism (SCA). Their big annual event was a camping event at Cooper's Lake campground in Pennsylvania. Officially it was the annual border war between the Middle Kingdom and the East Kingdom, and the kings tried to get all other kingdoms to ally with their side. They usually ended up with an even balance. Only about 20% of those attending would don real steel armour with rattan swords and foam rubber axes; battles had as many fighters as a real medieval battle. When they weren't fighting, they had a great time camping and shopping and generally partying. One friend called it camping with 10,000 of your closest friends. And that was an issue; according to Pennsylvania state law, when you had 10,000 people or more it was officially a city. And that meant you had to have a fire department and ambulance station. They tried to fudge numbers for a few years, claiming only 9,999 people attended, but eventually it grew so they couldn't do that. So they hired a fire truck and ambulance from one of the two neighbouring villages to stay at the campground for the long weekend. That complied with state law. The villages loved the business, came to rely upon the influx of customers every year. And village council loved getting money to have their firemen/paramedics stay there. Actually, some people did get hurt in the battles, so having paramedics present turned out to be a good thing.

The point is at least in that state, the law says a population of 10,000+ defines a city.

Last edited by RobertDyck (2019-04-21 14:15:18)

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#16 2015-12-25 18:47:31

Tom Kalbfus
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Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Mars City - Your vision?

RobertDyck wrote:

In the 1980s I was a member of a medieval recreation

post #15

I was in the ball park I said cities had a population of 20,000+.  I think its ridiculous to call something with a population of under 1,000, a "city!" A population of 400 is about the size of the student body of a high school, if you assume 100 students per grade. I don't think we'll have any Martian cities until we can transport at least 10,000 people to Mars.

Last edited by Tom Kalbfus (2015-12-25 18:48:20)

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#17 2015-12-25 19:18:48

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,011

Re: Mars City - Your vision?

My dream situation would be to have a lava tube and a sizable sand dune.

I would fill the opening of the lava tube with soil, and therefore define an isolatable chamber to do things with.

As for a city, it would either be in the lava tube or outside of it (But connected).

I would go back to Zubrin thinking with the Roman Arches.  For bricks, perhaps clay may be centrifuged from dune materials (Per Spacenut).  Else apparently NASA is researching methods of biologically making bricks using soil and human Urine.

So Bricks possible, and Mortar also (The Biological Mortar).

I would back fill over those structures with dune tailings (What's left over after having extracted what you can from the dune materials, Clays, Metals, Silica Ect.)

For airlocks I guess they would connect somehow to the top of a Roman arch.  Perhaps those airlocks could double as viewing ports so people could see outside.

I hope to think about using the habitat itself as a heat sink.  While individuals will need temperature control in their small private/sleeping quarters, for most of the habitat, allowing temperature swings might be OK.  With this I am trying to accommodate conversations recently where individuals have offered hopes that the heat and cold of the Martian day and night could produce energy.  I suggest that solar collectors / Radiators could interact with say 90% of the habitat environment to do that.  This could justify making more living space, as it would not only be for living but for energy production.

As for scale, I think this could be scaled from small to large, up to a "City".

I think the purpose of this facility could be to host a research center, where samples extracted from around the planet could be studied.
This I think is offspring of my conversations and observations dealing with Louis ideas.  A method to get research money from Earth.

Of Course there will need to be construction and maintenance staff, which will provide jobs for some relatively permanent residents.

As for Greenhouses, I guess I will go for what can be done.  Artificial lights, and/or greenhouses.

As for the dream situation, probably not available  (Lava Tube + Sand Dune).  If not then I guess the city made of dunes.  However if large ore body of iron ore available per Louis, so much the better.

Last edited by Void (2015-12-25 19:21:00)


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

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#18 2015-12-25 19:19:44

louis
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From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 5,091

Re: Mars City - Your vision?

Tom, I still think you would want the equivalent of bulkheads on a ship.

I agree about minimising surface area to atmosphere which is why I favour cut and cover construction for the early habs. 

However, this city is unlikely to be built as one entirely planned, integrated enterprise.  It is going to be growing by accretion as technologies develop, as we move from Earth imports to Mars ISRU and as we develop experience about what works best on Mars.

Tom Kalbfus wrote:
louis wrote:

Yes, I don't disagree

post #11

RobS wrote:

I am not going

post #10

Actually a small hab will depressurize a more quickly through the same size hole.  As you increase the volume of air have less surface area in proportion to volume if you use spheres, rather than a tickety tack collection of habs connected by tunnels. You want to minimize the amount of surface area exposed to the outside. the more surface area you have, the higher the probability of atmosphere leaks to the outside.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#19 2015-12-25 19:23:50

louis
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From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 5,091

Re: Mars City - Your vision?

I prefer the very American idea of calling anything with more than one horse in it a city. smile

RobertDyck wrote:

In the 1980s I was a member of a medieval recreation group called the Society for Creative Anachronism (SCA).

post # 15


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#20 2015-12-25 19:36:31

louis
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From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 5,091

Re: Mars City - Your vision?

I think people will be suffused with that idea of personal responsibility and mutual aid - just as they are in Antarctic bases, nuclear subs and other harsh or difficult environments: adversity breeds comradeship.

I don't think the quantity to be transported is simply a function of the size of the transporter. If you look at the history of European colonisation there are lots of examples of people being transported to colonies and then failing to thrive.  In this day and age we can't simply throw people at an environment and tell them to survive or die, we have to have the support infrastructure available for them when they arrive. 

That's where I have a problem with Musk's ambition.  I think he is looking at the problem in terms of how many people can we transport. However, really, we should be looking at it as an infrastructure problem: how quickly can we develop an infrastructure that allows tens, then hundreds, then thousands of people to survive in what is a v. challenging environment.  I think as soon as you look at the details of the infrastructure problem, you see it is really quite difficult:  you need millions of bricks, loads of steel and so on. Musk's MCTs - whatever their configuration - will not be long term habs for people to live in once arriving on Mars.

So my view of the problem is more like the hockey stick graph for the population: we have a slow period of development in the first few decades to arrive at a point where the Mars community can easily expand the infrastructure that will then support tens of thousands of colonists. It is difficult to determine when the "take-off" point will arrive but I would guess it will be at least 20 years.

SpaceNut wrote:

louis I feel that everyone must contribute to the greater good

post #12


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#21 2015-12-25 19:42:07

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 5,810
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Re: Mars City - Your vision?

Tom Kalbfus wrote:

I think a city will try to reproduce the outdoors indoors, it will simultaneously try to make efficient use of space, and use extensive holography to make the insides of city domes appear to be outdoors on an Earthlike planet, extensive use of virtual reality is also probable. Most of the physical work would be accomplished by robot, people would rarely go outside, repairs on facilities outside would be done by robots.

I disagree. A new TV show called "The Expanse" protrays that with Ceres. They show what appears to be the entire dwarf planet rotating for artificial gravity, producing sections with 1g, and near the hub are sections with 0g. One area with a rich businessman is brightly lit with a park with grass and trees and balconies overlooking the park, and potted plants everywhere. But the shopping mall is crowded and dark, with no plants. The mall does have a display of some sort, showing what looks like blue sky with clouds, and steel beams crossing the display at regular intervals with ventilation ducts. But that's Ceres.

Mars is a planet. We haven't see their vision of Mars yet, other than a short graphic during opening credits. I expect people to go outside a lot. Cabin fever. And expect lots of windows. Radiation shielding will require habitats to have regolith over the ceiling, but apartments and homes will have windows. I expect settlements will build courtyards, whether shopping or just condo common space, with apartments that face into the courtyard. So you can chose an apartment that looks in or one that looks out. I expect greenhouse farms will be transparent to the sky, because the cheapest source of light for agriculture is sunlight. You may have parks with transparent domes, either rigid or inflated, just open to the sky. Others will have thick glass domes with mineral oil for radiation shielding.

But expect settlers to embrace landscapes of Mars. Earth has blue sky with red sunsets. Mars has salmon pink sky with blue sunsets.
Mars-sunset-Spirt-rover-2005S.jpg?resize=580%2C447

Wide view of sunset over Gusev Crater taken by NASA’s Spirit Rover in 2005. Both blue aureole and pink sky are seen. Because of the fine nature of Martian dust, it can scatter blue light coming from the Sun forward towards the observer. Credit: NASA/JPL-Caltech

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#22 2015-12-25 21:03:06

IanM
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From: Chicago
Registered: 2015-12-14
Posts: 276

Re: Mars City - Your vision?

I think once we reach the hockey stick of population, the city/town/zero-horse municipality would expand much too rapidly for a static dome to be feasible. Rather, I think we should have modular pressurized "habitats" - whether they be city blocks, underground apartment modules, or whatnot  - that would be much like LEGO blocks; they could be easily interconnected, with an emergency entrances/exits in case of emergency depressurization. I further think that such modules, if overground, would vary in height in order to accommodate buildings of different heights, and that some modules surrounding industrial corridors would have vents at the top to let emissions by the industry therein out, both to maintain local air cleanliness and to promote early terraformation.


The Earth is the cradle of the mind, but one cannot live in a cradle forever. -Paraphrased from Tsiolkovsky

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#23 2015-12-25 21:35:33

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 5,810
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Re: Mars City - Your vision?

Something like this? (Logan's Run - 1976 movie)
dome2.jpg?w=580&h=313
Or more like this? (Toronto Eaton Centre)
the-toronto-eaton-centre-shopping-mall-canada-ATE8CX.jpg
1000w

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#24 2015-12-25 22:39:17

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,522

Re: Mars City - Your vision?

I remember soyent green as well as part of those future shock films as a teen....

now back to a mars city......

Modular design would be smaller than the size of the first dome structure and we will have an issue of how do we move such a module to the next location to join in connecting to the already existing structure.....

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#25 2015-12-26 00:24:49

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 5,810
Website

Re: Mars City - Your vision?

You don't move a building. You construct it where it will be used. The Toronto Eaton Centre was originally several buildings, much later joined together. Or there's Portage Place in Winnipeg, designed by the same architectural firm (but smaller).
cd704e3e23764706a53815584281046f.jpg
The big glass thing in the centre was originally a street. It's still a street south of Portage Avenue, the mall blocks Edmonton Street. Inside looking out that same glass thing...
8278249775_603e1557c3_b.jpg
And looking west, along the main corridor...
17748962.jpg
The point is this was originally several separate buildings. Streets between buildings were roofed to form mall corridors. And the mall is connected to other downtown buildings via "skywalks", a few of which have stores right on the bridge.
images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTmY9gZnfoD5X2Nk4xvYAd5zn6ZWySjCCGveoQ1n1Zgp1le8ODK
DowntownNow_372x258.jpg
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And there's underground shopping at Lombard place, under an office tower called the "Richardson Building" and the Fairmont Hotel. That's connected to an underground walkway with shops beneath the intersection of Portage Avenue & Main Street, the primary intersection downtown. And that's connected to another underground mall called Winnipeg Square, beneath another office building called the Trizec building. That in turn is connected via a series of skywalks (second floor walkways and bridges) to Portage Place.

20121215-IMG_1050.jpg
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images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRTL8gA54O8VNDyWG9A4FaBcqeEypF3gLs-CUdasOUu9lywwq8O
We have winter here. It's been a multi-decade project to connect downtown so people don't have to go outside. When I was a kid, it was common that the coldest nights of the the year could get down to -40°C. Climate change is warming, in fact we didn't get serious snow this year until the middle of December, and the last time it got down to -40°C was one night in January 2005. But we already have connected buildings. In fact here is one pair of apartment buildings. The space between is sealed with glass, creating climate controlled space year round.
pc2.jpg SAW-513.jpg 15249_01_201506241058057985.jpg

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