Spacesuits - personal spaceship

SpaceNut · 2015-12-16 21:11:29

Another shifting topic issue fixed along with the other artifacts....

Tom Kalbfus · 2015-12-17 12:24:01

SpaceNut wrote:

Another shifting topic issue fixed along with the other artifacts....

I wonder what astronauts do in their spacesuits when they sneeze, get a speck of dust in their eyes, or need to scratch their nose? I couldn't imagine living in a spacesuit.

Void · 2015-12-17 12:42:50

SpaceNut wrote:

Another shifting topic issue fixed along with the other artifacts....
I wonder what astronauts do in their spacesuits when they sneeze, get a speck of dust in their eyes, or need to scratch their nose? I couldn't imagine living in a spacesuit.

Yes, and if you have an Counterpressure suit, and you pee yourself repeatedly, I suppose that works, but it is distasteful. I have yet to figure out how things work if your have diarrhea in a Counterpressure suit. It's gonna happen. It seems to me that having cleaning up such a mess is something worth trying to avoid.

Balloon suits let you pee yourself, and poo too, but then you have to clean that up.

Can't help it, sometimes you will be using those suits, and having to do some cleaning, and being rather unhappy. Humility required to live on Mars. (Or the Earth actually, if you want to continue to live.)

So, as far as I can see, the first issue is to reduce the amount of suit time you have to have outside. Use telepresence as much as is practical.

Then, I recommend that in addition to counterpressure suits, and balloon suits, and their combinations, you develop long duration cyborg suits with the capability for the human to partially disengage from the suit to perform bodily functions in a less disgraceful manner.

Such suits by their nature will not allow you to do "Quick and Generalized" work, but will have to be designed to fulfill a choreographed service, and to do it efficiently and repetitively. I generally try to avoid efficiency and hope to incorporate general capabilities instead, but at the end of the day you have to make a profit, or submit to the authority of others, and those others could include failure to survive.

So, I suggest as an example a suit with 3 arms, where the human is positioned in an enclosure with at least 3 wheels, perhaps 4 or 6, where they lie down on the floor, and have a view window below. The reason for 3 arms, is they will have 2 arms deployed, and the 3rd will be an option which was not chosen to be used at that time.

The purpose of such a suit would be to work on flat ground. Perhaps as a prospector, inspector, or electrician, or plumber, etc.

Mode 1 will have you poke both of your real arms though holes in the enclosure to manipulate objects below on the ground.
Mode 2 will have you poke one of your real arms through a hole in the enclosure to manipulate objects below on the ground.
But, with your spare hand, you will be able to clean distasteful body functions, clean said hand with clever methods which will have to be invented, and then eat something or drink something, in that order at all times we hope.

While your spare hand is not doing body functions, it may operate a joy stick and keyboard, to operate a cybernetic hand which is to assist the one real hand you have poked out of the enclosure.

A very ambidextrous and well trained person might be able to accomplish this, do good effective work and maintain hygiene, but we might want more. If we presume that the hands poked out of the enclosure are in "Balloon Arm and Glove" suits, can they extract them and what is the dexterity of such gloved hands?

Still, if they could pull their arm/hands out of the suit arm/glove, they could take a break, eliminate body wastes, clean up, eat/drink something, and go back to work fairly easily. Their cybernetic suit would include capsule space for that. The suit would be suitable for extended stays on the surface. A week? A Month?

If this were accomplished this still leaves problems.

1) The Arms/Hands are not that dexterous.
2) The cyborg suit only presents the human to a ground presentation. (Their facing the dirt at all times).

For #1, I suggest a triple join arm, where a protective balloon arm is attached to the capsule bell the human stays in. However then human when extending their arm into that balloon, may have put on a counterpressure arm/glove. Upon the insertion, a "Cork" (For lack of a better description), seats and therefore isolates the pressurized balloon arm from the capsule.

The arm/hand balloon may then be depressurized, while maintaining cabin pressure. The human arm and hand is double protected at this point. The counterpressure protection protects from depressurization. The balloon, and easily be re-inflated, if for some reason that is not working out. It is not perfect. You have a 2 layer glove, but you are not fighting the toil of closing your hand against a balloon glove.

Now if you want to live dangerous, if you can you can take off the balloon glove, and have a counterpressure glove, perhaps even modified to allow small patches of your skin to be directly exposed to Martian atmosphere (Not U.V though). So, dexterous work if required.

This does then put you into some danger, if you cannot successfully get the balloon arm/glove re-attached to the capsule. Therefore such failure modes will have to be planned for, a buddy system is one method to recover from such a situation. Other methods will have to be contemplated.

As for #2, you would need motorized mechanization to move the capsule about in 3 dimensions to provide access to more objects that might exist on the actual Martial world outside of your habitat. Here the safety issue will be to prevent crushing events for the arms in particular, and also with collisions of objects comes the risk of ruptures of pressurized capsules and death from depressurization.

Operating in the fluid environment of a lake provides some relief from the rigors imposed by the typical Martian surface, but of course eventually you have to work on that real Martian surface.

That's what I have for you at this time on the topic.

Oops! a bit of an addition about 5 minutes after the main post here. In the event you could not get your exterior balloon glove back on you would have safety methods without the buddy system if your body inside the capsule was inside of a hybrid suit as well. That is all of your body was protected by an air cooled balloon suit, except for your arms, which would be protected by counterpressure. The way out would either be to depressurize the cabin by voice, or keyboard commands, and then pull the arm/cork out of the port, or just pull it out if you could, quickly and let the cabin depressurize that way. Hopefully no other unprotected person in that cabin. Otherwise to protect further, if you had to perform that stunt, the arm ports could have spring loaded doors that might close before depressurization became lethal.

Think it is possible.

Last edited by Void (2015-12-17 13:47:24)

RobertDyck · 2015-12-17 13:19:48

Cabin fever. You want to go outside. One reason to keep habitat pressure down is to ensure zero pre-breathe time. Go outside to explore. Or just play football or something.

An MCP suit is Spandex, tighter than a woman's girdle. Dr. Webb spread the force with a plastic bag holding liquid silicone laid along the crack of the ass, and trough of the lumbo-dorsal spine. And of course a silicone filled pad over the genitals (male or female), because those body parts are intricate and small, and very sensitive. Gotta protect the family jewels! He found silicone filled pads were not necessary in arm pits or palm / back-of-hand. Boots were pressurized with a neoprene rubber air dam at the top of the boot, so think of Telemark ski boots that have an ankle joint. Helmet was head-worn like a closed-face motorcycle helmet, or Mercury/Gemini helmet, not shoulder-worn like Apollo. Neoprene rubber air dam around the neck. That means the tight Spandex would have to go up the neck, and the helmet would require something to hold it down, like the cables of an orange Aces suit for Shuttle. The tie-down could be connected to a strap that runs under arm pits; or would the air bladder vest be firm enough? You want a firm attachment so the helmet doesn't constantly lift up due to air pressure, like it did on an Aces suit.

I wonder if the neck arrangement would feel as if it's choking you. Would you require something over the cartilage of the trachea? Perhaps another thin silicone filled pad?

As for soiling yourself, realize the pressure layer is just Spandex that's more tight than a girdle, with a couple plastic bags filled with silicone. They can be washed. I imagine you would remove the plastic bags holding silicone before throwing the garment in a washing machine. The bags would have to be wiped down with a washcloth.

Void · 2015-12-17 13:33:33

No problems with your answer Robert, sometimes, it will just have to be really real. But as you can see from my previous post, to a degree other options are available, but so far there is nothing as easy as just doing things the way we can on Earth in most places.

Outside on Mars is always going to require extra work as far as I can see.

Last edited by Void (2015-12-17 13:33:54)

Void · 2015-12-17 14:00:09

I think I am in the mood to get rid of something, I have been carrying for some time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rickshaw

I guess if you had that job you had to wear a Mushroom hat, and be a draft horse.

Lets suggest a lighter weight long duration suit instead.

Instead of the lady, have life support consumables.

Of course Mushroomhead has to put on a spacesuit of some kind.

Where the wheel pivots are create a balance beam situation.

Where the hands are, make a pivot connected to the hips of the spacesuit.

Now you can navigate the surface for days, weeks, or perhaps even months. But your suit needs to allow you to deal with body functions, and that limits your mobility, but since you have a pivot at the hips and your rickshaw is a balance beam, your whole body capsule suit can rotate, and the balance beam wheels can swivel you to present your arms and face to many things. You may also have solar cell arrays on your rickshaw. And the Rickshaw can let you walk perhaps, if it is not a total capsule type, in which case it can impose extra weight on your body frame to make you fit.

Just some ideas. I think space blankets to cover you up during the night will be a good idea as well. In the night time if the rickshaw has enough power, it can take you to your next work site while you sleep, balancing on it's two wheels. (Need gyro's for that though, I think).

There you go.

And a combination of two legs/feet and two wheels might not be that bad a method for a rover either. Balance becomes easier, and stuck in a sand dune has options perhaps.

And by the way a rickshaw might be a very nice therapudic method for people who don't have enough strength in their legs to stand up and balance.

Last edited by Void (2015-12-17 14:13:02)

Void · 2015-12-17 18:57:39

Continuation....

So the Rickshaw relates to the Segway scooter, relates to a balance beam, relates to a space suit.

Let's make sure that mushroom head did not live in vain. Myself, I spent quite a lot of time working on balances. That could be a reason for humility, but it also teaches you in a way that language never could what the reality of gravitation and inertia will tell you. In addition to that it my training involved electronics, and mechanics, and precision, and accuracy. While to many this is a reason to be quiet and be humble (A good practice anyway), it seems it can give you inner eyes perhaps for what matters, and what works. Reality is a bitch. You have to play by it's rules in the end, but you should never stop looking for sub clauses that give you permissions to live and prosper.

For instance why did I choose electroplating as a career possibility in the 9th grade (To the amusement of all my very assured classmates)?
Well life has lots of jokes, it would seem that electroplating is related to electrowinning, which might be quite useful for a culture that exists on the reality of tangible materials and not the arrogant words of the overly communicative.

There are other experiences I am waiting for an answer for. Why in the world was I made to do this thing? Well I am guessing eventually I will know.

http://www.touregypt.net/godsofegypt/maat2.htm

http://www.egyptian-scarabs.co.uk/weigh … _heart.htm

Last edited by Void (2015-12-17 19:30:10)

SpaceNut · 2016-04-07 18:43:41

wow do not miss that.....off topic rant....

The suit, known as the Modified Advanced Crew Escape Suit Astronaut Spacesuit Testing for Orion Spacecraft

Johnson's 11-foot thermal vacuum chamber to evaluate the performance of the suits in conditions similar to a spacecraft.

This is the first in a series of four tests with people in the suits to evaluate the performance of the spacesuit systems in an environment similar to a spacecraft.

GW Johnson · 2016-04-08 16:52:00

If one persists in thinking of a spacesuit as a personal spaceship, one ends up with the 400-pound EVA "suits" they use on ISS. Suits in which you would be lucky to manipulate a 1-inch open-end wrench successfully. Suits that could not possibly serve on the moon or Mars or Ceres, because you absolutely cannot walk in them. And if you were to fall over while alone on the moon, Mars, or Ceres wearing such an atrocity, you die because you absolutely cannot get up.

Instead, think of the "spacesuit" as merely vacuum protection, over which you wear whatever extra garments suit the challenges you face. Think vacuum-protective underwear, plus a pressure-breathing helmet and tidal-volume bag, plus whatever wards off the hot sunlight, the cold, the sharp or abrasive environment, etc. That last need be no different than what we wear down here to ward off those same hazards.

The secret of practicality is mix-and-match, not everything-in-one-garment.

When will all those idiots at the suit manufacturers, and NASA, finally figure that out?

P-suit, MCP, makes no difference. Simple vacuum protection plus suitable outerwear. That's the ticket. Plain as the nose on my face. Or anybody else's.

GW

SpaceNut · 2017-07-06 21:03:48

Adding link for spacesuit information
Hard Suits/Hard Shells: Recent Developments in 3D-Printed Hard Suits and Single-Person Space Utility Vehicles

Oldfart1939 · 2017-07-06 21:20:46

The concept of a spacesuit for Mars as a single entity is absurd. It should be composed of modular layers, and for males , incorporate what is called a condom-drainage tube system for urination. You put the drainage system on the same as a condom, and with several backflow preventers in the plumbing. Then a polymer cup over the family jewels, followed by the spandex suit, and then a flexible "thinsulate insulation layer." Depending on time of Sol to dictate the external oversuit, but nothing similar to the Michelin Man monstrosities currently envisioned by the suit manufacturers.

Oldfart1939 · 2017-07-06 21:37:29

As an observation, didn't NASA make a contribution to the suit design in the movie "The Martian?"

The early flight suits used by the rocket plane (X2, D558, X15) pilots seem to be reasonably designed.

RobertDyck · 2017-07-07 00:23:46

Excellent point. What you describe is an MCP suit. By the way, Dr. Webb's design didn't use a "cup" over the family jewels. He used a bag filled with liquid silicone. The silicone spreads the force of the tight spandex evenly to protect that sensitive area. You do have to ensure there is sufficient pressure. With a hard cup, there is no pressure so that body part would be exposed to Mars ambient pressure.

Yes, it would be modular. GW Johnson has used the phrase "Spandex underwear", or something like that. The MCP layer is tight to the skin, but other layers cover it. The chest and upper abdomen is covered by a vest with a synthetic rubber air bladder, and non-elastic fabric restraint layer. Then a thermal and scuff layer that looks like ski pants and a parka. On Mars the thermal/scuff garment would use Thinsulate and Tenara fabric. For space you would use multi-layer insulation and Orthofabric. So different ski pants and parka for different applications. The Mars garment would probably have zips that could open when you get warm. No point in zips over the vest, but pit zips make sense. Mars temperature can vary from +24°C to -88°C. Viking recorded a low over a full Martian year of -102°C. Curiosity has recorded a low even colder. So the normal suit would be restricted to daylight. Going outside at night would require what you describe: a much heavier external oversuit. Instead of a ski jacket, an antarctic parka.

Dr Webb used a silicone filled plastic bag over the genitals, which had a "finger" that extended around the to the crack of the ass, and the trough of the lumbo-dorsal spine. (Trough over the spine in the small of your back.) He considered pads in arm pits, palm and back of hands, but found they weren't necessary. Mitchell Clapp found silicone pads in the palm and back of hands were necessary when pressure was increased to that of an EMU suit. Dr Webb was working with pressure of Apollo suits.

I think it's interesting that the bag protecting your family jewels, and pressed against them, is filled with the same liquid silicone as breast implants. The bag would be a more durable plastic, not a silicone shell, but the liquid would be the same.

Oldfart1939 · 2017-07-07 07:18:44

We need to think about adaptations for the female gender as well; there are some manufacturers of female travel urinals that could be modified to serve--in principle. Everything needs to be snugly fitted with deformable silicone seals, and the whole works held in place by the spandex underwear. It would probably be necessary to remove all pubic hair for both sexes. I would imagine it could take an hour or more to "suit up." so out-of-hab excursions would probably be carefully scheduled and planned. I would say that a 32 Earth hour per week limit would be in place. That would mean 4 workdays per week, each of 8 hour shifts, but with an hour prior and an hour after to get dressed and subsequently undressed. In a regolith shielded habitat, this would also reduce the GCR exposure to reasonable limits for achieving some useful exploration and construction. With a crew of 7, this gives us 224 human hours per week of exploration/sample collection/greenhouse work/construction/etc. outside the shelter. Just guessing, but it would probably take some substantial assistance to dress in such a suit, so we would probably have 4 on the "outside" shift while 3 worked in the habitat. Tis is one of the reasons I've argued for a larger crew size than 3 or 4; that size is unrealistic and ultimately unworkable.

Added in edit: These female urinals are for sale through Sporty's Pilot Shop, the leading supplier of equipment for private pilots.

Last edited by Oldfart1939 (2017-07-07 07:33:02)

RobertDyck · 2017-07-07 10:47:49

A number of people working on MCP suits want something that releases pressure. So you put on the mechanical counter pressure layer without pressure applied, then flick a switch of some sort to apply pressure. No one has come up with a practical way to do that. Dr Webb's prototypes didn't do that. His first prototype had several layers that you just pull on. One option is to use Spandex or some new elastic fabric, but with a contractile polymer strip down each sleeve and leg. From collar to wrist, and ribs to ankle. I would prefer the strip to require power to relax, so no power required to maintain pressure outside. Boots and helmet are pressurized. But that just means boots would capture the pressure of the hab when you put them on. I was thinking of telemark ski boots, that's a hard boot with a hinge at the ankle, but I notice new space boots look like leather work boots that lace up. Tightening laces would compress air in the rubber bladder inside the boots. Spandex gloves would always be tight. With a thermal/scuff overglove.

My point is it shouldn't be a major operation just to get dressed. How long does it take to get dressed in winter? And an astronaut should be able to dress him/herself.

Last edited by RobertDyck (2017-07-08 12:06:43)

SpaceNut · 2017-07-07 19:15:22

One issue is keeping warm and cool under as tight fitting material.
Pressurized compression via inflation such as an inner tube suit would mean attaching body fitting size for the wearer .

RobertDyck · 2017-07-07 21:40:29

Uh... You realize Oldfart1939 and I are talking about Mechanical Counter Pressure (MCP) suits. They don't have a rubber layer. Boots are pressurized, with a rubber air dam at the ankles. The helmet is head-worn, not shoulder-worn, so it solves the safety problem when riding a 4-wheel ATV over rough terrain. Build the helmet as a motorcycle helmet. And I've posted previously, for safety line the hard shell of the helmet with closed cell foam, then a layer of PCTFE film as a redundant pressure layer, then open cell foam comfort layer inside. If the rider falls and cracks his/her head on a rock, the shell cracks, the closed cell foam separates the shell from the film so the film doesn't tear. And two polycarbonate panes for the visor, both pressure sealed to a common frame that holds both. The frame pressure sealed to the shell, and to the film. If the outer polycarbonate pane cracks, the inner one still holds pressure. Of course a basic fundamental that Dr Webb developed is a synthetic rubber air dam around the neck. To hold air pressure in the helmet. Since the helmet is pressurized, that pressure will push the helmet off the head. It has to be tied down to the vest.

There is no rubber suit. Just Spandex, or some new woven elastomer fabric. That means you sweat right through the fabric. Thermal regulation is via sweat. The entire heat control system is nothing but a bottle of drinking water. You will need 1 litre for an 8-hour EVA. Best way to design that bottle is with a bottle built like a 1 litre pop bottle. Instead of PET, use a polymer that can withstand temperature swings on Mars. Yes, you want to maintain it within temperature range of liquid water, but you don't want something that will rupture if that temperature range is exceeded. A pop bottle can withstand a lot more pressure than spacesuit pressure against hard vacuum. Inside that bottle place a polymer film plastic bag. Water goes inside the plastic bag, air fills the gap between the bag and the bottle. Connect the air gap to a breathing hose. As you drink water, the volume is replaced by air. Constant volume means no restriction.

An air bag rubber suit requires the liquid cooling garment currently used on EMU. And the aluminum alloy heat exchanger, with water sprayed on the outside of the heat sink to freeze then sublimate into space. That requires a lot more water, a lot more equipment, and active circulation pumps that require power.

Oldfart1939 · 2017-07-08 07:12:39

The issue with foot protection isn't that difficult; wearing some sort of spandex stockings would seem to offer a reasonable solution for MCP. I was hospitalized 7 years ago and was required to wear some special stockings to keep blood clots from forming in my legs. This concept should be investigated before worrying excessively about foot protection. If the shoes/boots are lined with a tough and durable expandable closed cell foam, then the reduced ambient pressure would subsequently compensate against the swelling of the feet from the reduced surround pressure.

SpaceNut · 2017-07-08 08:42:24

Well trial locations for using a simular suit design could be the high altitude base camps.

GW Johnson · 2017-07-08 10:25:21

I'm now seeing advertised medical compression socks with a zipper p the side. They open to don easily, then zip up to provide the compression. At one level or another, could not such a thing be applied to MCP suit design? Might take more than one piece and one zipper to get a more even compression all along a limb. So what? Not any gas pressure inside to seal in.

GW

SpaceNut · 2019-03-24 22:05:37

Extravehicular Activity Suit Systems Design: How to Walk, Talk, and Breathe on Mars

tahanson43206 · 2019-03-25 06:40:07

For SpaceNut ...

Thank you for finding this 1999 paper by Professor Squyres and the Cornell team he led.

I noticed a reference to Antarctica in the communications section, where experience with radio repeaters was cited.

With 20 years of advances in technology, including NASA experiments with cubesats at Mars recently, my guess would be that some of the concerns expressed about infeasibility of satellite communications support may be eased somewhat, but the work done on local communications seems relevant today.

(th)

SpaceNut wrote:

Extravehicular Activity Suit Systems Design: How to Walk, Talk, and Breathe on Mars

GW Johnson · 2019-03-25 11:32:30

I came up with a conceptual combination of the Webb elastic garment and the old partial pressure suit with the inflated "capstans" that drew a non-stretch garment tight. It's posted somewhere over at "exrocketman".

The idea was to use a rather stiff but still stretchy fabric, somewhat like what Webb used, sized a bit too large, for easy doff and don. Use inflated capstans to pull the garment sections tight so that the elastic confinement can do its job squeezing the skin.

Whatever puts oxygen in the helmet inflates the capstans, so the suit tightens up whenever you pressurize the breathing helmet. Simple. Easy.

Silly idea, but it might just work. Worth a try, anyway.

GW

Last edited by GW Johnson (2019-03-25 11:33:53)

elderflower · 2019-03-25 12:14:13

Not at all a silly idea, GW. You will need to address how to retain joint mobility, though.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2021-06-06 06:06:06

Nobody has landed on Mars but it is though Mars will have its own unique BioSuit. From hearing about other science plans of what can be done in the thin Mars atmosphere I believe actual Spacesuits may not be needed for Mars but maybe something more like a high altitude pressure suit and radiation shielding is an issue. Pressure is needed to the body and keep those blood cells where they belong and if the suit had 30 percent of Earth’s pressure the wearer could stroll around on Mars without suffering ill effects, although you probably now have to go through the procedures deep sea divers do need to undergo decompression, they can avoid the bends if they dive smartly, so people on Mars will also have to know their physical limits.

https://www.mars-one.com/technology/the-mars-suit

The Mars Suit must be flexible enough to allow the astronauts to work with both cumbersome construction materials and sophisticated machinery, and at the same time keep them safe from the harsh atmosphere.

Could the Mars suit itself be an advanced recycle facility and recycle air and water much like the scifi books and tv shows.

Possible future technology for Clothes, Tools, Suits and Structures.

Technique inspired by lace making could someday weave structures in space
https://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Tech … e_999.html
Lauren Dreier was paging through a 19th century book by the German architect Gottfried Semper when she spotted some intriguing patterns inspired by lace. A professional artist and designer who often incorporates technology into her work, Dreier, who is also a doctoral student at the School of Architecture at Princeton University, decided to recreate the printed illustrations in 3D.

She grabbed ribbon-like plastic material she had been experimenting with in her studio, bending and connecting the semi-rigid strips. To Dreier's surprise, the structure she built assumed a bumpy geometry, with four distinct hills and valleys.

"I thought it would make a dome, but it was this unusual shape," Dreier said. Curious to know what caused this unexpected twist, she reached out to Sigrid Adriaenssens, an associate professor in Princeton's Department of Civil and Environmental Engineering. Adriaenssens couldn't explain it, either, but she, too, was intrigued. She proposed a joint investigation to find out what was behind the strange structural mechanics.

Dreier's discovery wound up leading to the creation of a reconfigurable structure the researchers termed a bigon ring. By tweaking the specific design of the structure's patterns, the team was able to produce multiple geometries that arise from different looping behaviors.
https://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Tech … e_999.html
According to a paper describing the findings in the Journal of the Mechanics and Physics of Solids, the numerical framework behind the discovery can be applied to any general elastic rod network, whether made of thread, bamboo or plastic. It could also lead to the creation of new products and technologies that are capable of changing shape to improve performance under variable conditions from spacecraft to wearable technology.

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#126 2015-12-16 21:11:29

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