Potential Resources of Mars

Void · 2015-11-04 20:53:41

http://fti.neep.wisc.edu/neep533/SPRING … ture19.pdf
This looks like a nice resource. I was looking for a reference to Copper salts on Mars and this came up.

You can open the PDF, right click the pdf text, and "Find" 'Copper'.

If you scroll down to the "TES Geological Map of Mars", it appears the Louis might be right, there is a deposit of iron rich material, and interestingly it is adjacent also to a mild manifestation of dust, (I presume loose soil/dunes) and an area of Basalt Andesite.

So, I think for a first equatorial base variety could help. That looks like a good place.

I think the above PDF goes well with this:

http://arstechnica.com/science/2015/04/ … e-on-mars/

This applies to the top few centimeters of the Martian surface; below that, temperatures should be cool enough for the salts to remain permanently hydrated, possibly forming an extremely salty brine. Further toward the poles, humidity should reach levels where "liquid brines are abundant," according to the authors.

My interest with the above, is that if there are abundant brines in the area below the winter maximum CO2 cap, then those salts may contain many of the metals that would be wanted. How to extract them? Well, some must have solutions now, and then if you want something enough, then you should work on a solution for that solution (Of salts).

The reason to avoid the CO2 Snows in the winter, is because it will tend to wreck your facilities which you evacuated for the winter.

No insult to me Spacenut if you choose to get rid of it.

Last edited by Void (2015-11-04 21:28:53)

SpaceNut · 2015-11-05 23:31:27

Seems that the path of perchlorates show where there might be water....Spectral Evidence for Hydrated Salts in Seasonal Brine Flows on Mars

AQUEOUS TRANSPORT OF SALTS ON MARS

Perchlorate Salts and Water on Mars: An Overview of Recent Work

SALT-HYDRATE STABILITIES AND MARS SAMPLE RETURN MISSIONS.

Maybe these will help to break the ICE....

Void · 2015-11-06 08:43:15

Nice.

I recall that if you query for saltpans on Mars you should see articles about standard salts in saltpans on the surface in the southern mid latitudes.

The Perchlorate salts however are the ones much more likely to provide extractable liquids with salts.

I have not watched this video yet, but the text tied to it is interesting for the purposes of getting metals from salts:

The world needs clean water, and more and more, we're pulling it from the oceans, desalinating it, and drinking it. But what to do with the salty brine left behind? In this intriguing short talk, TED Fellow Damian Palin proposes an idea: Mine it for other minerals we need, with the help of some collaborative metal-munching bacteria.

And here is something to connect to that:
http://www.space.com/21554-mars-toxic-p … icals.html

Smith said microbes on Earth use perchlorate for an energy source. They actually live off highly oxidized chlorine, and in reducing the chlorine down to chloride, they use the energy in that transaction to power themselves. In fact, when there's too much perchlorate in drinking water, microbes are used to clean it up, he said.

And https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_monoxide

So, a fuel from the atmosphere, can you extract it?

And an Oxidizer from the ground, brines of Perchlorates.

So, really, could you get Metals, Oxygen, Power, and even food from this?

Power:
I am thinking fuel cells where cold Perchlorate is flowed through one side, and Martian atmosphere through another. Perhaps that will clog up your system with metals though?

Organisms. Perhaps if you had tanks where you diluted the brines with fresh water enough for micro-organisms to tolerate it, you would do OK. Could you use Reverse Osmosis to separate the bulk CO2 from the atmosphere, catching a gas enriched in N2, O2, and CO?

Then present that enriched gas to your micro organisms as food (The CO), and then you would have a residual of N2, which might also have O2, but maybe also Chlorine added to it.

Well, I think you see.

But if you have micro-organisms growing, and they are also giving you metals, the micro-organisms also might be useful. For organics, plastics, maybe even food.

That would be nice, turn two poisons into life support. CO and Perchlorate. Your Daddy and Mommy.

Last edited by Void (2015-11-06 09:09:42)

Void · 2015-11-06 13:56:56

I think that here could be a case for the use of extreme organisms which capture energy from the sun.

I presume a Cyanobacteria which uses sunlight for energy, and which is tolerant of normal salts, and low pressures.

So, you still must use a protection from evaporation for your briny water. This will involve a humidity tent. Rather than heating the entire water of a covered pond up, I would hope that during the day, primarily the bottom film of water over soil would warm much higher than the average of the pond. The pond can be rather shallow, to allow the advantage of sunlight penetration, and to allow the harvesting off the Cyanobacteria, perhaps by a boat like robot.

I am not thinking of a Cyanobacteria to directly consume as food.

It should be possible to keep a brine pond from turning over much.

As a protectant from UV, I suggest some type of oil film on top of the brine. It should not degrade from digestion by organisms, if that top layer is very cold on average. If it does, then it would be replaced.

Previous communications I have had with another indicate that a small amount of organic matter in water will absorb ultraviolet.

So, I hope to create a sunscreen for the pond that floats on top of it. As said before it will perhaps have to be filtered/replaced periodically to maintain transparency/translucence.

As for the Cyanobacteria, itself, being a short lived organism, I would think that just by farming it this way, over time you would get mutations which are more tolerant of U.V.

Genetic engineering is an option also.

The primary purpose of the Cyanobacteria would be to harness energy from sunlight, and from added Perchlorates, and in doing so liberating metals desired from Perchlorate Salts.

They might also release Oxygen which could be harvested, but that is not a primary purpose.

If that were running, I would propose to add reasonable flows of Perchlorate salts to the pond. Those should serve as an energy source for the cyanobacteria. If they have the right character, they should scavenge metals from those Perchlorate salts.

The Cyanobacteria, if harvested could then be processed to remove methane. Anaerobic digestion being one option, and the residual may then be a source of a metal desired.

It may be that nature has already concentrated salts of certain kinds at certain locations. Otherwise concentration of salts can be done by thermal precipitation, and/or evaporation.

That is part of a way to concentrate metals. Another part would be in the nature of the Cyanobacteria selected.

UV tolerance in alpine lakes:
http://photobiology.info/Albarracin.html

Last edited by Void (2015-11-06 14:50:24)

SpaceNut · 2015-11-06 21:47:28

Here on Earth there are many a bacterial bugs that can be used to do our dirty work when it comes to making mars livable.

Old newmars friend that do not stop by much anymore posted this on another forum

Grypd2 wrote:

In the Democratic republic of the Congo is a lake called Kabuno bay it is an Iron rich environment and an ancient microbe that utilises iron in photosynthesis is present.
Iron Eating Microbes
Shaun Barrett wrote:
Hmmm.
I missed it too.:huh:
Yes, the banded iron formations.
As we've touched on in past discussions, it will be VERY interesting if we find similar sedimentary layers on Mars!
Something I noticed in the article:
According to University of British Columbia (UBC) research published this week in Scientific Reports, 30 per cent of the microbes in the Democratic Republic of the Congo's Kabuno Bay grow by a type of photosynthesis that oxidizes (rusts) iron rather than converting water into oxygen like plants and algae.
I don't know whether this represents a deliberate effort on the part of the scientists at UBC to leave carbon dioxide (CO2) out of the equation, or whether it's the journalist's doing, but the photosynthesis of plants and algae isn't just "converting water into oxygen". <_<
It may not be politically-correct to acknowledge it but the inconvenient fact remains that CO2 is what plants use to make the carbohydrates that keep them alive.
The chemical equation is as follows:
6CO2 + 6H2O --> C6H12O6 (glucose) + 6O2
While it's true that the oxygen expelled by plants does indeed come from the water, rather than the carbon dioxide, the FOOD the plant needs - the carbohydrate, specifically the glucose - depends on the availability of CO2.
You can't have carbohydrate without carbon.
Plants get their carbon by splitting CO2 they get from the atmosphere..
CO2 IS PLANT FOOD.
Plants use the glucose to make starch (for storing nutrients) and cellulose.
Cellulose is what forms the structure of the plant - such as the wood in trees.
Everything a plant is, or does, depends on atmospheric CO2.
I suspect the absence of any reference to CO2 in this article is one more example of the deliberate deletion of any information which might undermine the 'carbon pollution' image in the public mind.
We can't be admitting that more CO2 is good for GREENING the planet, now can we? <_<
::EDIT:: (some hours later)
Here in Australia, Professor Graham Farquhar, biophysicist, has just won the Prime Minister’s Prize for Science.
A quote from his prize-winning work:
“My reckoning is that if we could get rid of all the anthropogenic carbon dioxide emitted since the industrial revolution, then agricultural productivity would drop by 15%.”
[Sorry! Now back to 'Mars: Colonisation'. ]
a very useful microbe

Terraformer · 2015-11-07 05:29:10

Hmmm, I hadn't considered that. Are there oils which are lighter than water, non-toxic, and which would be liquid at ambient Martian conditions? If so, could we build an organism that could produce such oils, and so establish a biosphere on Mars?

Antius · 2015-11-07 08:47:18

Terraformer wrote:

Hmmm, I hadn't considered that. Are there oils which are lighter than water, non-toxic, and which would be liquid at ambient Martian conditions? If so, could we build an organism that could produce such oils, and so establish a biosphere on Mars?

Yes. Butane. Under Martian conditions it would be a liquid with oil-like properties. Don't know what use it would have in establishing a Martian biosphere.

Terraformer · 2015-11-07 13:27:25

I was thinking of brines that have a layer of oil on top of them to prevent sublimation. Plants would grow in the lake, and the biosphere would replenish the butane to maintain itself.

SpaceNut · 2015-11-07 15:09:49

Thin film oil on water to act as a membrane to slow or stop sublimation?

light refraction....
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hb … lfilm.html

oil emulsions
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar … 7413002628

Thin Film Evaporation Technology
http://www.medibalt.com/en/files/download/89

Still searching for just the right information....

Void · 2015-11-17 14:57:57

Ok, here we go, sand dunes!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ore_resources_on_Mars

Dark sand dunes are common on the surface of Mars. Their dark tone is due to the volcanic rock called basalt. The basalt dunes are believed to contain the minerals chromite, magnetite, and ilmenite.[38] Since the wind has gathered them together, they do not even have to be mined, merely scooped up.[39] These minerals could supply future colonists with chromium, iron, and titanium.

Oh, yes, yes, yes!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromite

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetite

Magnetite is a mineral and one of the three common naturally-occurring oxides of iron. Its chemical formula is Fe3O4, and it is a member of the spinel group. Magnetite is the most magnetic of all the naturally-occurring minerals on Earth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilmenite

Ilmenite is the titanium-iron oxide mineral with the idealized formula FeTiO
3. It is a weakly magnetic black or steel-gray solid. From the commercial perspective, ilmenite is the most important ore of titanium.[4]

And basalt particles also!

So, I can see first you try to get out the magnetic stuff, which should include Magnetite, and Ilmenite.
Then you do a magnetic separation against centrifugal force. The Ilmenite should be flung away by centrifugal force and the Magnetite retained, to fluidize this dry, you might have to induce vibrations.

How you get out the Chromite, I don't know, but I am sure someone does.

So, how about those metals!

Now that's massive big time love!

And Louis, you are not wrong. When I worked in a Taconite beneficiating facility, I had a conversation with a metallurgist, he indicated to me that, making steel is like baking bread. They like some Taconite pellets, some Hemitite, some scrap metal.

He also indicated that the value of the Taconite was in it's purity. It did not have other metals in it. So, metals from dunes may have a problem with impurities. I simply don't know. Some ore bodies are better than others. But I am not about to look a gift horse in the mouth too hard. If impurities are a problem, then science will have to try to find solutions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taconite

For instance the Cyuna Iron Range has too much Manganese, but apparently you want that for Stainless Steel. Shrugging Shoulders.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuyuna_Range
The Mesabi is good clean stuff
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesabi_Range
The Vermillion is mined out, or there is too much overburden. It actually had/has ore that you can weld on.
http://www.miningartifacts.org/VermilionRange.html

Last edited by Void (2015-11-17 15:42:24)

SpaceNut · 2015-11-17 21:25:26

Depending on the mineral impurity an acid might do the trick to remove it....If Taconite is easy to gather sure go for it but I think the Blueberry fields of Mars hematite might give all the low hang Iron ore that we would need....

UTAH MARBLES AND MARS BLUEBERRIES: TERRESTRIAL ANALOGS FOR HEMATITE CONCRETIONS ON MARS

http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/sc … st28mar_1/

Titanium-iron oxide once the iron is removed could be used to make solar cells....
Titanium Dioxide Coating Improves Efficiency Of Graphene-Based Solar Cells

NOVEL USES OF TiO2 IN CRYSTALLINE SILICON SOLAR CELLS

Inkjet Printing of Titanium Dioxide Photoanodes for Dye Sensitized Solar Cells

Void · 2015-11-17 23:06:51

Oh, dear.

All right I will walk you through it, you can kick me out or not.

You would not extract the Titanium and throw away the Iron, unless the Iron was completely useless.

In the post I made about the Cyuna Iron Range ore being contaminated by Manganese, perhaps I left you with the impression that that ore was Taconite. It is Hemitite.

I have worked in Hematite.

And if you are going to go get the Titanium, why wouldn't you get the Chromium if you could?

And if you did that, why wouldn't you get the water out of the sand and dust if you needed, it.

And if you went to all that trouble, why wouldn't you make something out of the basalt sand and dust tailings, if it served your purposes.

Hematite on Mars will in itself have contaminants, and hopefully some of it will serve best purposes.

This is one of the things that drives me crazy about this place, is people make rash judgments without full information.

If I am going to talk about Metals and Dunes on Mars, I am going to keep an open mind and explore options Alpha through Omega, if they seem to exist.

If I am going to paint a picture I don't want just one color of paint.

I am not sure I like the limiting of the potential use of Titanium to solar cells.

Weren't we just talking about Titania as a catalyst in another topic?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanium_dioxide

And if you read the article it also is useful as a pigment for paint and as sunscreen.

I'm just saying.

Back to Iron and Steel. You would want many types, and so as much as you could you would want many sources. Dunes, and Hematite.

And here is another point as I go on. In another discussion, we are talking about getting Fluorine for various reasons, one being for making a plastic film we hope will be helpful to our purposes for abiotic synthesis of organic chemistry, and perhaps we hope greenhouses.

Locking yourself down to a particular ore will limit your ability to access other ores. Fluorine is essential I think. Sand dunes and loose wind blown dust should be similar and Ubiquitous to the surface of Mars.

Therefore you can have Iron, Titanium, Chromium, and Fluorine at one site, if you find a Fluorine ore. Lets say Flourite.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluorine

Owing to the expense of refining pure fluorine, most commercial applications of the element involve the use of its compounds, with about half of mined fluorite used in steelmaking. The rest is converted into corrosive hydrogen fluoride en route to various organic fluorides, or into cryolite which plays a key role in aluminium refining. Organic fluorides have very high chemical and thermal stability; their major uses are as refrigerants, electrical insulation and cookware, the last as PTFE (Teflon). Pharmaceuticals such as atorvastatin and fluoxetine also contain fluorine, and the fluoride ion inhibits dental cavities, and so finds use in toothpaste and water fluoridation. Global fluorochemical sales amount to over US$15 billion a year.
Fluorocarbon gases are generally greenhouse gases with global-warming potentials 100 to 20,000 times that of carbon dioxide. Organofluorine compounds persist in the environment due to the strength of the carbon–fluorine bond. Fluorine has no known metabolic role in mammals; a few plants synthesize organofluorine poisons which deter herbivores.

Granted, perhaps there will be no Fluorite ore anywhere, or any ore substitute, in which case I guess I would try to get Fluorine out of salts, which should be in the soil and may be in the dunes.

Or perhaps there will be a Fluorine ore just next to Hematite ore, and if we really are interested in doing strange things on Mars, we will just take Titanium out of the sand dunes and dump the rest out.

I'm sorry, I know you have to work really quick with this site because you don't have time for it, but in this case I could not let the situation pass without a rebuttal.

Last edited by Void (2015-11-18 00:20:58)

SpaceNut · 2015-11-18 19:51:46

I did a zig rather than a zag and ended up going the wrong way.. It is agreed that we should waste not and want not when it comes to processing the Ore of Mars.

The same process for glass coating with Titanium oxide is used in solar cells manufacturing so it was just one of many uses.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ore_resources_on_Mars

I think you will like this table http://www.redcolony.com/features.php?name=compositions as it is from when Pathfinder's Sojourner Rover...

The Chromium for Mars seems to be of the cancer-causing hexavalent form http://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/14/scien … orers.html

MANGANESE, METALLOGENIUM, AND MARTIAN MICROFOSSILS

High manganese concentrations in rocks at Gale crater, Mars

One of those uses for the Magnesium is for a solid fuel hybrid rocket motor for Mars launches omce we can do so. http://www.wickmanspacecraft.com/marsprop.html
Which brings me to IN-SITU PROPELLANT ROCKET ENGINES FOR MARS MISSIONS ASCENT VEHICLE

You are right that I do not have much time to be online and I am usually quite tired when that I am so no worries....

Void · 2015-11-18 22:21:09

Thanks for your patience with me, and for the informative information.

If I can recall from a conversation with a metallurgist at least 40 years ago;
Manganese contamination in the ore, makes the steel too hard, and does not allow the "Bakers" to make the varieties of steel they might like.

Even so this link looks favorable on it.
http://pmpaspeakingofprecision.com/2010 … -in-steel/
Included here is a negative on having too much Manganese in the steel.
http://www.articlesfactory.com/articles … ustry.html
http://www.articlesfactory.com/articles … ealth.html

We never got further than to concentrate an ore. That ore was apparently liked because the "Bakers" could put in the additives they wanted to get the product they wanted.

Yes, your (You and Lewis) blueberries might be excellent, they remind me to Taconite pellets, which we made.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taconite

I expect that a new process for making steel will be required for Mars. However one of the qualities of the pellets, that the steelmakers also liked was the air spacing, for the air to pass through them during the blast furnace process. So, again your blueberries might be great (Or not). But the additives in them may well be very important. Some might be good in one place, and some not good.

On Mars the settlers will have to be thankful for what they get, but I think the information that that Metallurgist gave me was worthy information. Hopefully the settlers will get a variety of ores, which they will eventually be able to access to make a variety of products.

Mars being what it is, I would think that a good look at this is important; (You mentioned Magnesium).

Extraction of magnesium and copper using a surfactant and water in supercritical carbon dioxide

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar … 4608001915

Yes, so you had information also that was important, the toxic Chromium. That's something to think about.

Toxic it may be, but there is a Chrome lining to this cloud: (Perhaps)
http://www.britannica.com/technology/ch … processing

Because chromium and chromium-rich alloys are brittle at room temperature, they have limited application. By far the largest consumption is as an alloying addition to iron. In amounts varying from 10 to 26 percent, chromium imparts corrosion resistance to steel; it is also used to improve hardenability, wear-resistance, and high-temperature strength.

Intuition suggests to me that in a Atmosphere dominated by CO2, if a little moisture gets involved, you might be dealing with corrosive films. So Chromium might be good to have.

So to extract they say... (I hope this covers the type on Mars)

Extraction and refining
If carbon and Cr2O3 are combined in a molar ratio of 3:1 and subjected to increasing temperature, a number of oxidation-reduction reactions will ensue that will produce first a series of chromium carbides and finally, at 2,080 °C (3,775 °F), pure chromium and carbon monoxide. (This will take place at 1 atmosphere, or about 100 kilopascals, of pressure, but reducing the pressure will lower all of the reaction temperatures.) This theoretical reaction does not account for the presence, in commercial practice, of impurities in the metal and slag that may alter reaction temperatures and cause undesirable reactions of their own. For this reason, while a ferrochromium of very low carbon content (less than 0.1 percent) can in principle be produced in a single stage of smelting, in practice not all carbon is eliminated owing to the presence of magnesia, alumina, and silica in the ore and the use of silica as a flux to lower the melting point of the slag. In practice, therefore, the primary product is usually a high-carbon ferrochromium that can subsequently be refined to a low-carbon product. If pure chromium is desired, iron must be removed from the ore or from an intermediate ferrochromium product by hydrometallurgical techniques (see below).

So getting Carbon should not be a big problem.

It actually might be a thing you could do under a concentrating mirror on the surface at ambient pressure. (Since the stuff is so toxic, that's real good).

I will give one more pitch for dune metals in general. Some of it should be from off planet, therefore of a different chemistry that the ores of Mars. This may provide variety, which should be wanted. On the other hand it might be tricky, separating particles which are of the type you want, from those which will have contaminants you don't want. Not impossible. Perhaps some type of miniature robots could actually pick through the particles, and sort them out. Not beyond imagining. Not ready for prime time yet, but soon possible I bet.

That could actually be quite useful on Earth if you could pull it off.

Oh, one more thing. I don't recall where it was, but your material contained a reference to oil and natural gas being associated with meteor impacts. I presume this is abiotic. Some will say Oil cannot happen and that is fine I don't want to argue about it but I think they will not argue against Methane.

Some theories of Methane emissions on Mars have it as being from Meteors. And then if you think about it, if you had a great big block of Carbonaceous_chondrite impact a spot, surely you might hope to find hydrocarbons cooked out of it and perhaps retained in the broken rock, particularly if that broken rock had ice permafrost sealing it shut.

I am going to go out on a limb and say maybe oil as well. Now that's worth looking for. Especially Methane. There could be your greenhouse gasses.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbonaceous_chondrite

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-30456664

Methane 'belches' detected on Mars

Are we sure we shouldn't try to drill for Natural Gas on Mars?

Last edited by Void (2015-11-18 23:08:10)

Void · 2015-11-19 14:17:30

I choose to continue with this, Spacenut expressed a concern about a variety of Chromium which is highly toxic.

Here is his reference repeated:
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/14/scien … orers.html

Scientists studying the risks facing human explorers of Mars have cautioned that windblown dust, pervasive on the arid planet, threatens to abrade, clog and corrode vital spacecraft systems. And some of the dust breathed by astronauts may contain one of the most toxic chemicals known, the cancer-causing hexavalent chromium.

About the Oxidative state of Mars.
http://faculty.washington.edu/dcatling/ … teMars.pdf

Hexavalent_chromium
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexavalent_chromium

So, this apparently is how you convert I to a safer form of Chromium:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16169572

Abstract
Hexavalent chromium and methyl tert-butyl ether (MTBE) are two important environmental pollutants. Simultaneous decontamination of Cr(VI) and MTBE was studied by UV/TiO2 process. The influences of pH and the concentrations of pollutants on the kinetics of the photocatalytic reactions were evaluated. Dark adsorption tests showed that the acidic pH favored the adsorption of Cr(VI) while neutral pH favored the adsorption of MTBE. Under UV irradiation, Cr(VI) reduction was observed in Cr(VI)/TiO2 system, and MTBE oxidation was observed in MTBE/TiO2 system. The system containing Cr(VI) and MTBE by UV/TiO2 process demonstrated the synergistic effect between oxidation of MTBE and reduction of Cr(VI). The results demonstrated that two pollutants Cr(VI) and MTBE could be eliminated simultaneously by UV/TiO2 process. tert-Butyl formate, tert-butyl alcohol and acetone were identified as primary degradation products of MTBE by gas chromatography-mass spectrometry in the degradation of MTBE by UV/TiO2 process.

Methyl tert-butyl ether
http://www.bing.com/search?q=MTBE&src=I … rsationid=

Another reference indicated that Hexavalent Chromium will rapidly decay to the safer form of Chromium in the presence of organic matter.

So, some of the toxic characteristics of the Martian environment are due to chemistry from excessive Oxidation, and perhaps tools, suits, and other objects could be rendered less toxic by exposure to organic matter. This would be to spare the human body, by sacrificing some organic materials.

We can spare each other a lot of grief, if I just mention that Methane evolved from a meteor strike of the appropriate kind might be suitable organic matter. However, obtaining such a resource most likely will not be immediately possible, even if it exists.

[So, I am going to suggest for Scouting missions, a "Tent" attached to the airlock. And the first try at organics can be Urine, or Ammonia-Water derived from Urine.

So, you will be a bit put off by this, and I don't know if it will work, but if you Carbonated Urine, the freezing point would lower, the Urea also lowers the freezing point a bit. So you would chill it below the freezing point of water, and have a spray bottle, and if necessary, try to use this to neutralize Hexavalent Chromium before you passed any object back into your ship or hab.

I certainly don't know the chemistry that would result, but Urea, is organic I believe, and organics are supposed to neutralize Hexavalent Chromium.

For the squeamish, the urine can be sterilized first, but actually unless someone is sick it is not very significant as a biohazard.

As for the water loss, if you really wanted, to, you could have your tent sealed before you do this, and have a big block of very cold solid material in there that the resulting water vapor would perhaps freeze to. Then with a scrapper, you could recover some of the water.

Anyway, this carbonated fluid, may or may not pass out of your squirt bottle as a liquid. It may or may not freeze up the nozzle. I don't know. I surely will fizz as the CO2 evaporates out of it. It might leave behind ice from the water remnant, but perhaps somehow this will help to reduce the toxics of Oxidized dust when materials are being brought into the spaceship/hab.

an actual significant permanent settlement, I suggest something a bit less primitive.

For this I suggest a barn constructed of;
-Asphalt on the floor.
-A tent frame.
-A transparent/translucent tent.

In the tent, a vacuum system to expel dust tracked in. This would likely be a combination of an air hose, to stir a dust and a sufficient vacuum line used to evacuate the air containing the dust, to evacuate it to the outside.
-Of course brooms and brushes, and if possible some type of organic powder that can be used on spills, or a fluid with organics that could be sprayed on the spot where a spill occurred.

The asphalt should allow a visual inspection that will reveal the dust if it is there. Further the asphalt being partially organic, should help to neutralize toxic Oxidants.

Inside the tent should be life support methods where a person in a suit could be hooked up to hoses rather than carry tanks. This will be valuable if the hab itself becomes temporarily un-inhabitable. Further it will be valuable to allow a person to do work in the "Barn".

Last edited by Void (2015-11-19 15:05:16)

SpaceNut · 2015-11-20 21:36:09

Well a little sugar would be a bit more paletable than a bath in urine that's for sure....

Neutralizing Toxic Chromium with Sugar? Yup, simple fructose and sucrose remove highly toxic hexavalent chromium.

This is literally a sugarcoated story about how a simple and abundant molecule can rid the world of a deadly pollutant that causes cancer and a long list of horrific maladies ranging from skin ulcerations to perforated eardrums and kidney damage. fructose solution added to wastewater and soil contaminated with Cr(VI) removed 94 percent of the contaminate; glucose removed 93 percent. Sugar converts the toxic chromium into the naturally occurring and more stable chromium III–a nutrient necessary for life.

Chemical formula for glucose is C6H12O6. 6 carbons atoms are covalently bonded to 12 hydrogen atoms and 6 oxygen atoms. I am sure that its would be sprayed on then rinsed off with water. So the water that is used to remove the hexavalent chromium will need to be treated to be able to recover the water.
The process speaks for its self but its the added equipment that will make it not a first flight system form what I see....
http://www.sensorex.com/docs/AppNoteChromeWaste.pdf

SpaceNut · 2015-11-28 20:38:17

As favored in another topic the ability to make bricks begs to ask does mars have what it would take.

I believe clay was found by the rovers.

So will post the building of brick information in the other topic.

Void · 2015-11-30 19:15:59

I have no bricks for this topic today, but I am thinking Basalt fabric, impregnated with metal. (Not as bricks).

I am desiring light weight but durable mirrors for Heliostats. (And other items after that).

From post #10 of this topic:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ore_resources_on_Mars

Dark sand dunes are common on the surface of Mars. Their dark tone is due to the volcanic rock called basalt. The basalt dunes are believed to contain the minerals chromite, magnetite, and ilmenite.[38] Since the wind has gathered them together, they do not even have to be mined, merely scooped up.[39] These minerals could supply future colonists with chromium, iron, and titanium.

So, hoping to extract metal from the ores (If they actually exist).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrowinning

Electrowinning, also called electroextraction, is the electrodeposition of metals from their ores that have been put in solution via a process commonly referred to as leaching. Electrorefining uses a similar process to remove impurities from a metal. Both processes use electroplating on a large scale and are important techniques for the economical and straightforward purification of non-ferrous metals. The resulting metals are said to be electrowon.
In electrowinning, a current is passed from an inert anode through a liquid leach solution containing the metal so that the metal is extracted as it is deposited in an electroplating process onto the cathode. In electrorefining, the anodes consist of unrefined impure metal, and as the current passes through the acidic electrolyte the anodes are corroded into the solution so that the electroplating process deposits refined pure metal onto the cathodes.[1]

So, I am not sure, but most likely sulfide solutions would be used? That has to be created.

So I am supposing that if you can electroplate to glass, you might electroplate to a Basalt cloth mesh.
Electroplating to Glass:
http://scholarworks.rit.edu/cgi/viewcon … ext=theses

Iron Plating:
http://www.finishing.com/259/82.shtml

A. I am responding concerning Iron Plating. I am the General Manager of a chrome and iron plating facility in the Dallas, Texas area. Iron Plating is alive and well and we are successfully doing it on a large scale should this person still need answers to their iron plating problems.

Chromium:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrome_plating

Chrome plating (less commonly chromium plating), often referred to simply as chrome, is a technique of electroplating a thin layer of chromium onto a metal or plastic object. The chromed layer can be decorative, provide corrosion resistance, ease cleaning procedures, or increase surface hardness. Sometimes a less expensive imitator of chrome may be used for aesthetic purposes.

Titanium appears to not be that compatible with electroplating, but perhaps can be done:
http://www.finishing.com/250/24.shtml

A. Titanium can be electroplated from water based solutions and also from non-aqueous solutions.
Recipe 1:
70 gm sodium metatitanate
30 gm sodium acetate
30 gm sodium hydroxide
1 lit. water, 30-70 °C, 1-5 A/dm2
Recipe 2:
100 gm Ti(OH)2
40 gm HCl
100 gm NH4Cl
water 1 lit.,pH 4-5,30-50 °C, 3-4 A/dm2
Recipe 3.:
30 gm Ti( in form of TiCl3 or TiI3)
200 ml toluene 0,02 % pitch(?)
800 ml ethyl alcohol
18 °C, 21 A/dm2,graphite anode
All from Russian book L.I.Kadaner:Galvanostegija (electroplating handbook), Kiev 1964.

Nickel (Not listed yet as being significant in dunes, but likely in some iron/nickel meteors, so I will also address this).
http://electroplatingpk.blogspot.com/20 … ating.html

Nickel Alloy Plating

Nickel alloys electroplated for engineering applications include nickel-iron, nickel-cobalt, nickel-manganese and zinc- nickel. Iron is an inexpensive metal and solutions for plating nickel-iron alloys were developed mainly to reduce costs

So what I am after Spacenut is a fabric of Basalt to be the cathode to electroplate to any metal possible, of course desiring preferred qualities.

For now I am desiring light weight but durable mirrors for Heliostats. But if that works, there should be other applications.

I am wondering if you can plate alternate coatings of Iron, Chromium, Nickel, etc on to a web of basalt fabric. Perhaps even making a steel like metal, but would settle for a curved light weight plate that can be polished and used in a heliostat as a mirror. Of course this is for energy and greenhouse purposes.

I am not trained in chemistry, so if you want to you can likely catch me stupid here. I recommend you help me solve the problem instead.

Just on a guess, a key problem is to get the Chromite out of the dune. Maybe you can try the other two ores, but Chromite is a good start, and unfortunately I don't know how to separate it from the other dune materials, since I think it is not magnetic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromite

Chromite is an iron chromium oxide: FeCr2O4. It is an oxide mineral belonging to the spinel group. Magnesium can substitute for iron in variable amounts as it forms a solid solution with magnesiochromite (MgCr2O4);[5] substitution of aluminium occurs leading to hercynite (FeAl2O4).[6]
It is an industrially important mineral for the production of metallic chromium, used as an alloying ingredient in stainless and tool steels.

I guess first I would remove the magnetic materials, with will contain the Iron and Titanium, but apparently not the Chromium.

I would hate to have to soak the whole remainder, that would perhaps be wasteful, unless some other metals might come out of the Basalt.
Oh well, maybe someone will learn me how it is done.

You can't say I don't swing at the ball.

Last edited by Void (2015-11-30 20:03:47)

SpaceNut · 2015-11-30 20:46:07

Easier than that of melting rock or electroplating the metals in a depositing manner on a glass surface to make a mirror would be to recycle the insides of the metalized drink and food containers just gluing them or taping them into place to make the first generation of the concentrator until we have the time and resources to go further later in the mission timelines.

Here are some Basalt rock to fiber cloth:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basalt_fiber
http://www.sudaglass.com/
Basalt Fiber Properties

Most glass products are usually vapor deposited with metals, such as in the UV blocking and in the making of solar cells.....as glass is an non conductor for the purpose of being electroplated but I am still reading the thesis you linked above.

SpaceNut · 2015-11-30 21:43:07

As I thought pg 20 section paragraph 3. Chemical Treatment is done after roughing up a would be smooth surface to allow for "the fuming process, the stannous chloride is taken into the surface of the glass where it exchanges ions with the glass to produce the rainbow effect"...

Tin(II) chloride, also known as stannous chloride, is a white crystalline solid with the formula SnCl2

Void · 2015-12-01 14:09:47

Spacenut thankyou for taking the trouble. I also have looked further into this particular restriction in the hoped method. It appears that we might hope to appeal to the use of an "ink" with Carbon in it, to produce conductivity on a surface which is not naturally disposed to be conductive. Graphite perhaps.

But for the Tin Salt, might we hope that it may be present in the nasty salts that are thought to exist in the liquid water flows of Mars. I think there are fair chances for that.

SpaceNut · 2015-12-01 23:02:10

SpaceNut wrote:

http://isru.nasa.gov/Hydrogen-Reduction … olith.html
Another method would be regolith selection of high hydrogen conten to be mixed with regolith with a high oxidation level to combine and heat to cause water to form.
http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/~umpire/prof … 3722v1.pdf
Co versus hydrogen to reduce FeO3
http://www.marspapers.org/papers/Moss_2006_2.pdf
http://www.planetary.brown.edu/pdfs/5032.pdf
nuclear heated Co2 used to heat regolith to drive out water
http://sbir.gsfc.nasa.gov/SBIR/abstract … -8174.html
http://ssi.org/2010/SM14-proceedings/In … rovich.pdf

Void · 2015-12-04 10:45:04

Three energy solutions that excite Bill Gates

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/11/29/the-ener … =103202339

Solar chemical technology, flow batteries and solar paint are three examples of promising technologies motivating Bill Gates as he announces a multi-billion dollar private sector coalition alongside top billionaires to accelerate clean energy innovation.
In a paper released on his official blog over the weekend, the world's richest man explained the pressing need for increased public and private funds into research and development (R&D) to make renewable energy cheaper and more effective.
"Promising concepts and viable products are separated by a Valley of Death that neither government funding nor conventional investors can bridge completely."
By launching the Breakthrough Energy Coalition, he hopes capital from the 28 members, who include Facebook's Mark Zuckerberg, Alibaba's Jack Ma, and Amazon's Jeff Bezos, will allow firms to get their ideas into the marketplace. No details on the coalition's size was available but Gates did say the group's goal is as much accelerating progress on clean energy as it is making a profit.
His announcement came as the United Nations conference on climate change kicked off in Paris on Sunday, where governments hope to ink an agreement to cap the rate of global warming at 2 degrees Celsius compared with the current rate of 2.5-3.76 degrees.

Smoke billows from smokestacks and a coal fired generator at a steel factory on November 19, 2015 in the industrial province of Hebei, China.
Bill Gates is right about clean energy innovation

Gates' mention of three specific energy solutions primarily serves to underline his overall argument for more investment into R&D since none of the technologies are likely to be ready for a decade, according to his paper. However, Gates failed to mention whether the Breakthrough Energy Coalition will be funding these solutions.
Solar chemical technology essentially uses solar energy to create hydrogen, which can be used as fuel or for commercial purposes, such as making fertilizer.
"Solar chemical would put us on a path to decarbonizing both the electricity and transportation sectors. It would also help a lot with the storage problem, because the world is already very good at storing fuels and moving them around in pipelines, oil tankers, and other infrastructure," Gates wrote.
The second idea, a flow battery, could redefine how we store electricity. By utilizing a rechargeable liquid electrolyte inside two pairs of tanks, flow batteries are much more sustainable than lithium-ion batteries-the current gold standard for electricity storage.
The purpose behind solar paint is to make solar power easier to install. Maintaining solar panels in an average household can be expensive so by finding a light-sensitive dye that can generate electricity, consumers can transform any surface of their house into a solar panel by simply painting it.

<p>COP21 is different from Kyoto Protocol: ACCEL</p> <p>The UN climate change summit COP21, is the first time countries will have legally-binding pledges, says Rosemary Lyster, director at the Australian Center for Climate and Environmental Law. </p>

Solar Chemical Energy:
Images: Solar chemical

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jump to: navigation, search

Solar chemical refers to a number of possible processes that harness solar energy by absorbing sunlight in a chemical reaction. The idea is conceptually similar to photosynthesis in plants, which converts solar energy into the chemical bonds of glucose molecules, but without using living organisms, which is why it is also called artificial photosynthesis.[1]

A promising approach is to use focused sunlight to provide the energy needed to split water into its constituent hydrogen and oxygen in the presence of a metallic catalyst such as zinc. This is normally done in a two-step process so that hydrogen and oxygen are not produced in the same chamber, which creates an explosion hazard. Another approach involves taking the hydrogen created in this process and combining it with carbon dioxide to create methane. The benefit of this approach is that there is an established infrastructure for transporting and burning methane for power generation, which is not true for hydrogen. The problem with this approach is that carbon dioxide must be produced to release the stored energy, so it does not truly give "clean" energy. The other main drawback to both of these approaches is common to most methods of energy storage: adding an extra step between energy collection and electricity production drastically decreases the efficiency of the overall process.

It is also possible to use solar light to directly drive industrial chemical reactions and applications, eliminating the need to burn fossil fuels for energy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_chemical

Solar chemical

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Solar chemical refers to a number of possible processes that harness solar energy by absorbing sunlight in a chemical reaction. The idea is conceptually similar to photosynthesis in plants, which converts solar energy into the chemical bonds of glucose molecules, but without using living organisms, which is why it is also called artificial photosynthesis.[1]
A promising approach is to use focused sunlight to provide the energy needed to split water into its constituent hydrogen and oxygen in the presence of a metallic catalyst such as zinc. This is normally done in a two-step process so that hydrogen and oxygen are not produced in the same chamber, which creates an explosion hazard. Another approach involves taking the hydrogen created in this process and combining it with carbon dioxide to create methane. The benefit of this approach is that there is an established infrastructure for transporting and burning methane for power generation, which is not true for hydrogen. The problem with this approach is that carbon dioxide must be produced to release the stored energy, so it does not truly give "clean" energy. The other main drawback to both of these approaches is common to most methods of energy storage: adding an extra step between energy collection and electricity production drastically decreases the efficiency of the overall process.
It is also possible to use solar light to directly drive industrial chemical reactions and applications, eliminating the need to burn fossil fuels for energy.

The existing environment of Mars might be more compatible with Chemical Solar Energy than Earths environment.

For instance we will not care in the same way about a "Carbon Footprint" on Mars. In fact we might like to use to abundant CO2.
and;
At the air pressures current on Mars, explosions of H2 and O2, I think may be much less of a problem, so the process might be simpler. and;
And, the spectrum of light is broader on the surface of Mars than the surface of Earth, so we can expect more vigorous results from the U.V. portion which is very powerful. and;
Mars has many unexplored chemical potentials, for instance the materials of the sand dunes might be profitably involved.
Further;
In the case of Mars, I think that a solar tower could preform several tasks as desired.
1) Solar Chemical Energy.
2) Solar thermal energy. a) Heat, b) Electricity.
3) Terraforming.

The reason I bring all of this to the table is: I think the economic-political setup is correct for us to parallel a Mars effort with this already evolving Earth related efforts, and very little additional cost, and with very large technological advancements.

We know that when a cancer occurs, one route to combatting it is to cut off it's food supply. This I speak of is the interacting of the "Very Old World" with the new world. Some people like to frame it as West vs. East, which is false, since in reality, the East is actually places like China, Japan, and Korea. And the "East" is developing a similar relationship with the "Blighted" areas (The Middle East) that the west is.

I will stop for a moment to point out that I think my moral underpinnings are just fine. The notion I am talking about is that given an option, just like us, China, Japan, and Korea would prefer to be energy independent, and to not have to deal with a group of peoples who have not been able to develop cultural tolerance suitable for the modern world yet. Or will they ever? Actually those people in the blighted areas seem to be proud of intolerance and treachery. Granted, not all of them, maybe not even the majority, but the intolerant parts are sufficient to make the whole of those cultures unsuitable for cultural contacts, and they should be isolated and avoided when possible, made to repent of their transgressions.

So, I see the opportunity to run parallel with the environmentalist lobby, to produce a "Positive" treatment for the "Blight". Which I think most will have to agree, is preferred to the treatment where we are lured into blighted areas to kill lots of people. Not that that can be made to stop, but perhaps it can be reduced in necessity.

The issue of Greenhouse gasses on Earth, and "Global Warming" is not required to be proven for our purposes. If it is real, of course we would want to consider treating it as well. However, our concern is that there are very large social pressures existing which we can run parallel to solve national security issues for "Non-Blight" Nations/Civilizations, and that we can at the same time in a parallel way promote technology which would be useful on Mars, and yes perhaps change how our existence on Earth effects the Global Environment, perhaps in a positive way.

The above diagram I have expressed in words, describes a spherical model of human interaction. It has the capability to bypass the blighted areas.

The blighted areas unfortunately are a regression to a previous edition of reality where the peoples in those areas were able to control interaction between the East and West, and to charge "Rents" on the transactions. These people in those blighted areas are used to having unearned power. Currently they have used Oil instead of such cultural blockages, but they are now it would seem in many cases rebelling against the modern world trying to regress to methods of many centuries back. Our objective should be to bypass them and their oil, by any means necessary.

This cuts off the supply of sugar to the cancer. Cancer is a regression. They are regressions.

Since efforts to go to Mars involve potential space flight from Western and Eastern nations, and not much from the Blighted areas (They are interested in feeding on other humans), I will propose that there should be some actions considered about OIL, in order to protect the West and the East.

1) There is an apparent effort to destroy or damage our Oil Fracking industry. I suggest that a new petroleum reserve be created, where the government can buy and keep capped off wells drilled, as a petroleum reserve. This as a national security measure, and to keep our oil fracking industry more alive (It does not appear to be dying yet though). This would also very much leverage the power of our tight oil supplies, making them last longer, and so they would exist as a tool to mess with the blighted areas.

2) I propose that parts of the existing petroleum storage infrastructure be turned into a for profit device. Sell oil when the price is high, and empty it out to the limits of national security, and buy and fill it up when the prices are low. This could be done to the extent that #1 fills the original purpose of #2 for national security.

3) I think Santa Clause should come to town. http://claus.com/naughtyornice/index.php
I think all external hydrocarbon sources should be rated on a Naughty or Nice list.
a) Do you belong to a cartel? Yes Naughty.
b) Do you allow (Actually) religious freedom? No Naughty.
c) What are you doing about Terrorism? Not much? Actually preaching and protecting it? Naughty.
d) Do you help a Naughty entity to sell Naughty Oil as Nice Oil? Naughty.

Then tax the naughty oil in accordance with it's naughty rating, put that money in a pot, and allow lawsuits against it for victims of terrorism. And of course be nice to nice oil

Is this possibly against existing trade laws? Too bad, change it. Those who will not walk on two paws, need to have their face slapped, and we should take their Cigar as well.

They happen to be shame cultures, shame them.

It will also be fun to know that a terrorist will know that whenever they kill and destroy, abundant money will be given to the victims. It does not replace lost life, but it does put salt in the enemy's eye.

Now that we might have let them know that they can't take our lunch money, we can plan ahead for alternative energy to phase in as our tight oil phases out by being used up.

This can put a ring in our Military-Industrial community's nose and allow us to make them point in the direction of the future, rather than the past. (Making lots of money all the same).

So, the opportunity for Convergence of the EcoFriendlies, the Military-Industrial complex, and Space Enthusiasts is appearing up ahead, and I think that it is from that convergence that much of what is needed for the establishment of humans on Mars may come.

Last edited by Void (2015-12-04 12:26:26)

GW Johnson · 2015-12-04 17:39:54

I would point out something about fracking that would cloud the naughty-or-nice ranking a tad. The whole subject has become a political football already, while the real science is still a bit scarce. However, it is becoming clear that fracking can have objectionable side effects. These derive from two different activities: (1) hydraulic fracturing itself, and (2) disposal of used frack water. So far, (2) is causing more of the problems.

The problems caused by item (2) derive mostly from the unfortunate fact that all the proprietary frack fluids are fresh water with sand plus sand-fluidizing additives. The largest additive I believe to be diesel fuel, but that word is never used in public, so that the EPA will not regulate the use and disposal of frack fluid.

The voluminous backwash that comes back out of the fracked well is a brine about 10- times the salinity of sea water, contaminated with many heavy metals and often a little radioactivity. They don't re-use it, claiming that their additive packages are incompatible with brine. The biggest problem is that there is not enough fresh water supply available to support fracking, farming, and domestic use. Fracking is the biggest of those demands, by the way.

Disposal of used frack water is by deep well injection. The problem is that a well where disposal rates are high is very definitely a well surrounded by injection pressure-induced earthquakes. The worst examples are a popular handful of disposal wells in Oklahoma, where the induced quake magnitudes have exceeded 4 already.

The cure for most of category (2) problems would be to re-use frack water, which means finding a fluidizing additive package that works with concentrated brine. NO ONE is working on that, at least as acknowledged in public. For no one to be working on that is extremely short-sighted and stupid, in my humble opinion.

The problems from category (1) relate to geology. In areas like Texas where the rock layers are relatively flat and unbroken, then generally speaking, the only way for newly-released fracked oil and gas to surface is up your well. All you have to do is create a high quality well to forestall unwanted (and dangerous) leaks. In mountainous areas, the geology is quite different: contorted layers broken and bent in every imaginable way. Release the oil and gas (especially gas), and it has a variety of ways to surface besides your well, no matter how well you construct it. Natural gas carbonates the ground water the same way CO2 does, except it is flammable. That is why kitchen taps are exploding in flames in the Appalachian and Rocky Mountain frack fields. It's also why ground water in those same areas is being contaminated with toxins and carcinogens traceable to oil.

The cure for category (1) problems is simply not to frack in zones with that kind of geology. That's where the bulk of this resource is, unfortunately. So if that effect is ever properly regulated, I have grave doubts this frack oil boom will last even 30 years.

GW

Void · 2015-12-04 22:19:30

I have always thought you were a good one GW. And far be it for me to dare tell Texans they may or may not frack. It is none of my fracking business really.

I don't care if it does not last more then 30 years. We will be on our way down the road B4 the other creepy's can ever get on their bicycles. And we will have their cigars also.

I care about what you feel about your local resources, and have no intention of making you handle them other that what you might want to do.

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