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#1 2002-10-06 08:42:32

Ronman
Member
From: Blanchard, Idaho
Registered: 2002-10-06
Posts: 9

Re: Realistic Mars Environment - Simulation parameters and limitations

I haven't seen this subject addressed yet - so I thought of a few things:

One of the key elements for the Mars mission will be personal relations between crew members - and environmental conditions that will impact those relations. I have a few suggestions for the two habitats:

1) All visors on the helmets, and ports in the habitat, should be tinted to give a realistic color to the sky and ground. This is a psych thing - humans are dominated by the visual imput system. This could raise all sorts of issues ( like some volunteers might go crazy if they live under anything but a blue sky for a few weeks - you might want to pick people from Seattle for instance ).

2) From comments elsewhere in the forums - it is apparent that the habitat is quite uncomfortable as designed. It is clear to me that it should be earth ( Mars ) sheltered. That means either bury it level with the surface, or bank dirt up against the sides. Just think of Mars sand storms, and all the things that dirt will help with ( heating, cooling, material stressing, energy usage - if the reactor scrams, etc.)

3)Waste products should be composted in a composting toilet that recovers usable dirt and methane gas. These units already exist in real life. Something simular should be in the sim to try and recover water and soil, if nothing else.

4) What happened to the parachute? The landing should have given us a perfectly usable chute to use to drape the habitat. Shaped like a tee-pee, or cone, around the habitat, it would moderate the daytime temps. Stopgap measure until the habitat is burried.

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#2 2002-10-12 17:13:51

Nirgal82
Member
From: El Paso TX, USA
Registered: 2002-07-09
Posts: 112

Re: Realistic Mars Environment - Simulation parameters and limitations

Those sound like good Ideas to me, if only there was a way to simulate 1/3 gravity.

On the topic, is it just me, or is the Devon Island analog station a little less than what was to be expected?
I mean the length of time it took to build the habitat was sort of ridiculous, in the weeks i believe...

Your friendly neighborhood Martian...
-Matt


"...all matter is merely energy condensed into a slow vibration.  We are all one consiousness experiencing itself subjectively.  There is no such thing as death, life is only a dream and we are the imagination of ourselves."  -Bill Hicks

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#3 2002-10-16 09:15:41

Ronman
Member
From: Blanchard, Idaho
Registered: 2002-10-06
Posts: 9

Re: Realistic Mars Environment - Simulation parameters and limitations

Somewhere in the forums I saw an implication that many of the outside parameters to the project did not go as planned. It sounded like the station was put up by volunteers and a few others with what they had at the time, under some time constraints.

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#4 2002-10-16 19:42:58

Shaun Barrett
Member
From: Cairns, Queensland, Australia
Registered: 2001-12-28
Posts: 2,843

Re: Realistic Mars Environment - Simulation parameters and limitations

Ronman wrote:-

... ( like some volunteers might go crazy if they live under anything but a blue sky for a few weeks - you might want to pick people from Seattle for instance ). ...

    Send people from England!
    I lived in London for 16 years. One year we had a summer - the other years, a watery spring just blended into a chilly autumn and straight back into winter again!
    The sun came out a few times while I was there, but in general, everything was grey almost all the time.

    Brits would LOVE a pink sky!! At least it's some kind of actual colour!
                                          big_smile


The word 'aerobics' came about when the gym instructors got together and said: If we're going to charge $10 an hour, we can't call it Jumping Up and Down.   - Rita Rudner

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#5 2004-02-17 17:50:51

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 6,163
Website

Re: Realistic Mars Environment - Simulation parameters and limitations

I just had a nice meeting with a bush pilot from Nunavut territory. He said he can start his airplane in any weather. He's based out of Bakers Lake, Nunavut, but has flown to Resolute and Grise Fiord. Weather statistics state the all-time low temperature is -52ºC in winter at Resolute. The temperature here in Winnipeg got down to -41 on January 30. Yes, it's cold but you can certainly live here. The pilot said that if planes can't fly, snowmobile rescue teams can search a radius of 200 miles from Resolute or Grise Fiord, they could certainly make it to a known location on Devon Island. If we cannot operate FMARS for a few days in isolation in Canada's north, then how do we expect to operate a Mars habitat which will be isolated for 2 years without opportunity for rescue?

Isolation on Devon Island would be real. Life support systems would also be real; there is no need to "pretend" with a plastic airlock or simulated spacesuit. Trust me, at -40ºC you don't want cold air getting into your house when you open the door, and your parka really is a necessity. You wouldn't have to pretend to wipe off fines when you come in, you would really have to wipe off snow. The propane tank and propane furnace would be real life support equipment. Since environmental regulations on Devon Island prohibit an outhouse, human waste has to be transported off the island; the waste handling systems would also be real. Currently FMARS is only operated for 2 months each year; operating over the entire year would require very good toilet/waste management systems.

The microbiologists may not be able to do their thing when there is a thick layer of snow on the ground, but we need a good habitat and support systems to prepare for a manned mission to Mars. Let the microbiologists take the summer shift.

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#6 2004-02-18 00:25:01

Mundaka
Member
Registered: 2004-01-11
Posts: 322

Re: Realistic Mars Environment - Simulation parameters and limitations

neutral


Macte nova virtute, sic itur ad astra

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#7 2004-02-18 11:35:26

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 6,163
Website

Re: Realistic Mars Environment - Simulation parameters and limitations

Robert, is this a fire hazard and is fire hazard an issue in the Mars Hab? Is electric heating -- assuming nuclear power -- a better bet or is it too fragile?

This thread is about the analog research stations. The Mars Society has been very successful in that it raised money to build two analog stations, FMARS and MDRS, the European and Australian chapters have each built an additional station. I don't think there is any way we will raise enough money for a nuclear reactor. Propane isn't practical on Mars because there isn't atmospheric oxygen to burn it, but it's fine for Earth. Furthermore, there are strict environmental regulations on Devon Island; they even have to air-lift human waste off the island. I don't think a nuclear reactor would ever be approved.

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#8 2004-05-10 14:52:42

nirgal2002
Member
From: Eugene, OR
Registered: 2004-04-30
Posts: 8

Re: Realistic Mars Environment - Simulation parameters and limitations

Actually, there are others of us used to living under grey skies.   tongue   Anyone in the Pacific Northwest would have no problems under unusual sky conditions.  In fact, a nice day on Mars would be as bright as a slightly overcast day in Eugene, Salem, Seattle, Portland, etc.

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#9 2004-05-21 08:04:13

quasar777
Member
Registered: 2002-05-05
Posts: 135

Re: Realistic Mars Environment - Simulation parameters and limitations

i`m thinking that underwater would be the best analouge.

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#10 2004-06-20 09:46:40

Martian Republic
Member
From: Haltom City- Dallas/Fort Worth
Registered: 2004-06-13
Posts: 855

Re: Realistic Mars Environment - Simulation parameters and limitations

Robert, is this a fire hazard and is fire hazard an issue in the Mars Hab? Is electric heating -- assuming nuclear power -- a better bet or is it too fragile?

This thread is about the analog research stations. The Mars Society has been very successful in that it raised money to build two analog stations, FMARS and MDRS, the European and Australian chapters have each built an additional station. I don't think there is any way we will raise enough money for a nuclear reactor. Propane isn't practical on Mars because there isn't atmospheric oxygen to burn it, but it's fine for Earth. Furthermore, there are strict environmental regulations on Devon Island; they even have to air-lift human waste off the island. I don't think a nuclear reactor would ever be approved.

Has any body thought of using Earth batteries to heat and power the Devon Island station. It revolve around putting two dissimilar plates into the ground and you get an earth magnetic current that can be used like electricity and as a heating system.

Here a link to a sight that goes into more detail on the subject.

http://www.icehouse.net/john1/stubblefield.html

Assuming that it works as advertised, we would not need a nuclear power station and we could build something that we could actually use on Mars instead of just settling for propane gas which can only be used on earth. Assuming that these dissimilar plates will also work on Mars, then we would have Mars batteries.

Larry,

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#11 2005-05-19 16:08:54

C M Edwards
Member
From: Lake Charles LA USA
Registered: 2002-04-29
Posts: 1,011

Re: Realistic Mars Environment - Simulation parameters and limitations

What would it take to get a crew at the Flashline MARS Hab through the entire year alive?  This kind of endurance run might prove more informative than any single one of the short missions done so far.

Surprisingly, I've seen a statement that the station is not heated, although this may have simply been a note about shutting it down for the winter.  That would have to be fixed, if true.  Propane heating is practical, though the weather will start flirting with the freezing point of propane about midwinter. 

The mention of portable toilets in the recommended crew gear is not encouraging.  Improved waste handling is definitely advised.

I'm also unable to find an estimate for the hab's insulation value.  Some fuss was made over the MRDS insulation because of its unusual structural character, but MARS just used fiberglass and therefore didn't get any fanfare.  I know the tent city would have to go, but does MARS need more insulation to get a crew through the winter? 

Then, of course, there's the ubiquitous bears.  Nothing harms the authenticity of your Mars simulation like getting mauled by a polar bear.


"We go big, or we don't go."  - GCNRevenger

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#12 2005-05-19 18:05:23

MarsDog
Member
From: vancouver canada
Registered: 2004-03-24
Posts: 852

Re: Realistic Mars Environment - Simulation parameters and limitations

Close quarters living research was pioneered by Ben Franklin, or PX15.
The settlers will be cramped. Just to get some extra space, top priority will be to build.

Send robots to prepare for humans or not. That is the decision.

For actual location, you need a rover to explore and detail climate for a while,
maybe for a Martian year.

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#13 2005-05-20 12:57:56

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,728

Re: Realistic Mars Environment - Simulation parameters and limitations

Mars Desert Research Station

All-Female Team Explores Mars on Earth

The first person on Mars might be a grandmother. That's one unexpected possibility discovered by an all-female, six-member international crew that has just returned from Mars, or a reasonable facsimile of it, in the desert of southern Utah.

The all-female Mona Lisa Project is the second half of an all-male, then all-female crew experiment by the Mars Society in the remote Mars Desert Research Station to see how different groups perform under conditions resembling those of the Red Planet.

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#14 2006-09-05 08:12:56

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Realistic Mars Environment - Simulation parameters and limitations

What would it take to get a crew at the Flashline MARS Hab through the entire year alive?  This kind of endurance run might prove more informative than any single one of the short missions done so far.

Surprisingly, I've seen a statement that the station is not heated, although this may have simply been a note about shutting it down for the winter.  That would have to be fixed, if true.  Propane heating is practical, though the weather will start flirting with the freezing point of propane about midwinter. 

The mention of portable toilets in the recommended crew gear is not encouraging.  Improved waste handling is definitely advised.

I'm also unable to find an estimate for the hab's insulation value.  Some fuss was made over the MRDS insulation because of its unusual structural character, but MARS just used fiberglass and therefore didn't get any fanfare.  I know the tent city would have to go, but does MARS need more insulation to get a crew through the winter?  Then, of course, there's the ubiquitous bears.  Nothing harms the authenticity of your Mars simulation like getting mauled by a polar bear.

There are no Polar Bears in Antartica however. Perhaps it is time to set up a research station there. Perhaps some funds can be obtained from NASA for this endeavor, as they are interested in going to Mars. One idea is they might try to build an actual Hab, at least one that maintains an internal air pressure of 1 Bar at high altitudes in Antartica. There is the Transantartic mountains as one possible site, you will want some rocks to do some geology, you can still set the thing down on a glacier, bu keep it near some rocks that can be examined. The interior of Antartica has no significant animal life that would interfere with the mission. This would be good practice to see if an air-tight hab can be built and to test out some actual working pressure suits. Naturally any actual Mars Hab will have to be well insulated, and maybe NASA could eventually cough up a portable nuclear reactor, as it will eventually have to develop one anyway.

One thing that has yet to be tried is the manufacture of Methane fuel in Antartica, so we'll need to have a Mars style nuclear reactor and with that power and the CO2 on Earth, methane can be manufactures to power various methane vehicles in Antartica and in addition there is plenty of useful actual science that can be done in Antartica, perhaps searching for oil and mineral deposites under the glaciers and in the mountains.

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#15 2006-11-10 11:45:23

cIclops
Member
Registered: 2005-06-16
Posts: 3,230

Re: Realistic Mars Environment - Simulation parameters and limitations

Crew Chosen for Four-Month Mars Arctic Mission

11/09/06

The Mars Society today announced the selection of 7 crew members and 2 alternates for the four-month Mars mission simulation that will be conducted at the Flashline Mars Arctic Research Station (FMARS) on Devon Island between May 1 and August 31, 2007.

The selected team is:

    * Melissa Battler - Commander, geologist, University of New Brunswick, Canadian
    * Matt Bamsey - Executive Officer, engineer, University of Guelph, Canadian
    * James Harris - Chief Engineer, Austin Community College, US
    * Kim Binsted, Interdisciplinary scientist, University of Hawaii, US/Canadian dual citizen
    * Konstantinos Kormas - Chief Biologist, University of Thessaly, Greece
    * Kathryn Bywaters – Biologist, Miracosta College, US
    * Simon Auclair – Geologist, International Space University, Canadian

    * Ryan Kobrick, (alternate) Engineer, University of Colorado, Canadian
    * Emily Colvin – (alternate), Engineer, Georgia Tech, US

The 9 selected team members were chosen out of a pool of over 50 highly qualified applicants from all over the world. The will be backed up by a Science team led by Chris McKay of NASA Ames Research Center, and Penelope Boston and Shannon Rupert of New Mexico State University; a Mission Support group led by Robert Zubrin and Tony Muscatello of Pioneer Astronautics; and an Engineering team led by Paul Graham of Alpine Engineering Systems.

For four months, the FMARS crew will attempt to conduct a sustained and highly productive program of field exploration in the polar desert of Canada's Devon Island, 900 miles from the North Pole, while operating under many of the same constraints that astronauts would face on Mars. During that time, they will engage in telescience collaboration with a Remote Science Team centered in the continental US. The mission will thus be an unprecedented full dress rehearsal for human planetary exploration. By conducting this extended mission simulation in such a way, the Mars Society hopes to gain advance knowledge that will be of great value in planning for human missions to the Red Planet.


Let's go to Mars and far beyond -  triple NASA's budget !   #space channel !!    - videos !!!

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#16 2015-11-12 21:33:44

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,728

Re: Realistic Mars Environment - Simulation parameters and limitations

Fixed shifting issues caused by quote text box ending with a command that is not recognized....

I am wondering if we can pull a page out of the venus cloud city to create a mars analog in the clouds....

Mars 3.75 g (m/s2)

http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/c … Value-of-g

  • The table below shows the value of g at various locations from Earth's center.

    Location  Distance from Earth's center (m)  Value of g (m/s2)
    Iss orbital altitude

    Earth's surface             6.38 x 106 m  9.8

    1000 km above surface  7.38 x 106 m  7.33

    2000 km above surface  8.38 x 106 m  5.68

    3000 km above surface  9.38 x 106 m  4.53

    4000 km above surface  1.04 x 107 m  3.70

    5000 km above surface  1.14 x 107 m  3.08

Which got me wondering about the International Space Station that is circling the globe at an altitude of approximately 220 statute miles, or about 350 kilometers to 400 as we keep saying that it is in micro gravity.....is this due to orbital speed?

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#17 2015-11-16 13:28:53

Torquemadus
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2015-10-28
Posts: 2

Re: Realistic Mars Environment - Simulation parameters and limitations

SpaceNut wrote:

Which got me wondering about the International Space Station that is circling the globe at an altitude of approximately 220 statute miles, or about 350 kilometers to 400 as we keep saying that it is in micro gravity.....is this due to orbital speed?

The ISS is in low Earth orbit (LEO). You can track it via http://www.isstracker.com/

The station is in orbital freefall, so any objects or crew on board appear to be weightless relative to the station.

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#18 2015-11-16 19:59:38

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 19,728

Re: Realistic Mars Environment - Simulation parameters and limitations

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