Where on Mars do you think the first Human colony would be placed...

GW Johnson · 2015-10-29 16:51:25

I see no problem with a Mars expedition crew operating drones or rovers from Mars orbit. But, that does presume you (at least initially) base from orbit, not direct landing from transit. That does require the old 1950's notion of an orbit-to-orbit transport, equipped with multiple landers.

My mission concepts update that ancient concept. It does have considerable merit, even today.

GW

louis · 2015-10-29 19:10:59

I think the simplest solution is to land humans on Mars with sufficient water resources to ensure survival and then do the human-led water sourcing. Humans will be able to work at speed both in terms of travelling over the landscape and also drilling.

GW Johnson wrote:

I see no problem with a Mars expedition crew operating drones or rovers from Mars orbit. But, that does presume you (at least initially) base from orbit, not direct landing from transit. That does require the old 1950's notion of an orbit-to-orbit transport, equipped with multiple landers.
My mission concepts update that ancient concept. It does have considerable merit, even today.
GW

martienne · 2015-10-30 06:29:37

Tom Kalbfus wrote:

Is there any way to prospect for water using drones? A thought occurred to me, what if Astronauts spend some time in Low Mars Orbit operating drones drilling for water, and if they find some, they land at that site?

I like this idea.

louis · 2015-10-30 15:24:52

I don't see the added value in this approach. To do any significant drilling, these drones would have to be very large (lightweight drones wouldn't be much use in my view).

Let's assume humans need 1.5 kg of water per person a day (probably an overestimate in the context of a space mission). For a 3 person mission that will be something like 3.3 metric tonnes of water over a two year period. It would be a lot simpler to land that on the surface (not necessarily all in one go). Then the first settlers can prospect for water themselves and will be much more effective using the equivalent of hand-held road drills on the surface.

martienne wrote:

Tom Kalbfus wrote:
Is there any way to prospect for water using drones? A thought occurred to me, what if Astronauts spend some time in Low Mars Orbit operating drones drilling for water, and if they find some, they land at that site?
I like this idea.

RobertDyck · 2015-10-30 19:55:47

louis wrote:

Let's assume humans need 1.5 kg of water per person a day (probably an overestimate in the context of a space mission). For a 3 person mission that will be something like 3.3 metric tonnes of water over a two year period. It would be a lot simpler to land that on the surface (not necessarily all in one go). Then the first settlers can prospect for water themselves and will be much more effective using the equivalent of hand-held road drills on the surface.

Surviving on Mars means stop thinking in terms of consumption. Instead think of recycling. Water does not go away, it goes in a cycle. ISS recovers breath and sweat by the cabin dehumidifier. Obviously that has bad breath and body odour mixed in. It's filtered before returning to the drinking water reservoir. Urine is collected and filtered. Equipment on the American side of ISS is already rated to process wash water, although they haven't installed a sink or shower. I have argued feces must have moisture extracted and filtered. Instead of a mechanical/chemical system, you could use a biological system.

There is room on Mars for a greenhouse, so either use a grey water sewage processing system to convert sewage (black water) into processed water (grey water) suitable for water crops. Plants will transpire moisture through their leaves, that humidity will condense on cold windows dripping down to a collection trough. I'm told that water is much better tasting than NASA's water recycling system. But you need a big greenhouse to do it.

One former Mars Society member is Terry Kok. He advocated a composting toilet instead of grey water system. He had detailed micro-biology information to support his thesis. And he built a small subsistence farm with a composting toilet, producing humus that he buries in his garden. You have to be careful with this system. Ensure you don't spread E. coli on vegetables.

One design student in the UK came up with a recycling shower. It uses a cyclonic filter, based on a cyclonic vacuum cleaner, but for water. Then a regular filter. 70% of the water that goes down the drain comes out the shower head. This greatly reduces both water consumption, and energy to heat water. The only catch is don't urinate in the shower. The system filters out soap, shampoo, grease and oils from skin, dirt and debris, but isn't designed to separate urine from water. I think this system will be used in areas with chronic water shortage, like L.A. It could also be used on Mars. Water that doesn't immediately get recycled back through the shower head would go to sewage treatment.

This means we won't need that much water.

Last edited by RobertDyck (2015-11-01 09:19:14)

louis · 2015-10-31 05:25:45

I accept what you say. Such an approach would probably work. But given the nature of the risks, I think it is best to make the mission as failsafe as possible. If it costs say $150 million to ship three tonnes of water to the Mars surface, I think that would be justified in the overall scheme of things, representing as it would less than 1% of the overall mission cost. A failure in water recycling for whatever reason, would be catastrophic.

RobertDyck wrote:

louis wrote:
Let's assume humans need 1.5 kg of water per person a day (probably an overestimate in the context of a space mission). For a 3 person mission that will be something like 3.3 metric tonnes of water over a two year period. It would be a lot simpler to land that on the surface (not necessarily all in one go). Then the first settlers can prospect for water themselves and will be much more effective using the equivalent of hand-held road drills on the surface.
Surviving on Mars means stop thinking in terms of consumption. Instead think of recycling. Water does not go away, it goes in a cycle. ISS recovers breath and sweat by the cabin dehumidifier. Obviously that has bad breath and body odour mixed in. It's filtered before returning to the drinking water reservoir. Urine is collected and filtered. Equipment on the American side of ISS is already rated to process wash water, although they haven't installed a sink or shower. I have argued feces must have moisture extracted and filtered. Instead of a mechanical/chemical system, you could use a biological system.
There is room on Mars for a greenhouse, so either use a grey water sewage processing system to convert sewage (black water) into processed water (grey water) suitable for water crops. Plants will transpire moisture through their leaves, that humidity will condense on cold windows dripping down to a collection trough. I'm told that water is much better tasting than NASA's water recycling system. But you need a big greenhouse to do it.
One former Mars Society member is Terry Kok. He advocated a composting toilet instead of grey water system. He had detailed micro-biology information to support his thesis. And he built a small subsistence farm with a composting toilet, producing humus that he buries in his garden. You have to be careful with this system. Ensure you don't spread E. coli on vegetables.
One design student in the UK came up with a recycling shower. It uses a cyclonic filter, based on a cyclonic vacuum cleaner, but for water. Then a regular filter. 70% of the water that goes down the drain comes out the shower head. This greatly reduces both water consumption, and energy to heat water. The only catch is don't urinate in the shower. The system filters out soap, shampoo, grease and soils from skin, dirt and debris, but isn't designed to separate urine from water. I think this system will be used in areas with chronic water shortage, like L.A. It could also be used on Mars. Water that doesn't immediately get recycled back through the shower head would go to sewage treatment.
This means we won't need that much water.

GW Johnson · 2015-10-31 09:40:49

Louis & RobertDyck:

The smart thing is to do both. Send the supplies so that if the recycling machinery breaks and you can't fix it, you still survive. Suspenders and belt, armored codpiece. Any supplies not used are left there for someone else to use next time folks visit the site.

I do that with every aspect of the mission design, which is why my suggestions look so wildly different from any of NASA's designs or also so wildly different from Mars Direct and its variations.

GW

SpaceNut · 2015-10-31 15:11:43

louis wrote:

Let's assume humans need 1.5 kg of water per person a day (probably an overestimate in the context of a space mission). For a 3 person mission that will be something like 3.3 metric tonnes of water over a two year period. It would be a lot simpler to land that on the surface (not necessarily all in one go). Then the first settlers can prospect for water themselves and will be much more effective using the equivalent of hand-held road drills on the surface.

From the imperical topic

SpaceNut wrote:

rom http://spirit.as.utexas.edu/~fiso/telec … -22-13.pdf
Average Human Metabolic Balance (lb/person-day)
•Oxygen 1.84
•Water 7.77
Drink 3.56
In food 2.54
Food Prep 1.67
•Food Solids 1.36
Oxygen 0.44
Hydrogen 0.08
Carbon 0.60
Other 0.24
•Total In 10.97
Waste output:
•Carbon Dioxide 2.20
•Water 8.53
Urine 3.31
Sweat & respiration 5.02
Feces 0.20
•Solids 0.24
In urine 0.13
In sweat 0.04
In feces 0.07
•Total Out 10.97

Also somewhere here we have in one of the mars society analog stations numbers that show that we can go the water at about 1/3 of the numbers that are sugested and thats with no recircularation recovery.

I agree with RobertDyck that we need to look heavily at the waste stream recovery to keep Oxygen and water at the highest values of resources that we can have as being available for the crew to make use of when other systems fail as GW indicated....

louis · 2015-11-01 07:18:54

Thanks SpaceNut. I was referring to drinking water, essentially, so the 1.5kg I was using matches that figure of 3.56 pounds pretty much.

I tend to think of the food supplies as separate, and would include any requirement for food prep water to be added to food supplies.

There is of course the issue of water for hygiene. My understanding is the ISS crew use pre-prepared wipes.

SpaceNut wrote:

louis wrote:
Let's assume humans need 1.5 kg of water per person a day (probably an
•Total Out 10.97
I agree with RobertDyck that we need to look heavily at the waste stream recovery to keep Oxygen and water at the highest values of resources that we can have as being available for the crew to make use of when other systems fail as GW indicated....

SpaceNut · 2015-11-01 09:47:16

Thats true and if I recall correctly it was Bowersox that suggested hanging out the used wipes, so long ago to reclaim the moisture in them.

http://www.nasa.gov/audience/forstudent … Space.html
http://www.nasa.gov/vision/space/living … undry.html
http://www.space.com/21946-how-to-wash- … video.html

Void · 2015-11-01 13:23:10

Well, I was nasty Spacenut,

SpaceNutModeratorFrom: New HampshireRegistered: 2004-07-22Posts: 7,189Email
Re: Where on Mars do you think the first Human colony would be placed...

Void wrote:

I know NASA currently disapproves of sand dunes because they like to eat their rovers, but I see a small one in the link above.
The reason I am so interested in sand dunes, is I speculate that the processing of their content into desired materials might lend itself to scalable automation.
Eventually machines that eat (Shovel or vacuum it in) sand dunes, and leave behind material concentrates, and built structures. If necessary, water might be extracted from them. Automation increases profits, and profits are the difference between suffering and death vs prosperity.
Sounds good to process the sand for water, but we have put in energy to do this process; so what would you do with it then? We must look at these secondary uses so as to not waste.
Depending on the chemical analysis we could make building blocks, glass and create the refined metals or chemicals for later use in other processes by further processing.

My reply to this was unfair. A bit of drink I am afraid to have to confess. You should not have to fear that I will bite your hand off, and in fact I am more or less now a Moon bug. However I will answer, and you may choose to not respond, I don't have a problem with that.

The dust/sand if it is like the tested soils should have about 2% water in it. If you are by a dune, you would have water (If that is true). It would have to be tested further.

Also there should be magnetic material in the dust/sand, (Meteor Material) and it should be relatively easy to concentrate that. I do understand that others would like to mine ore bodies, but I have worked in such mining.

1) Blast
2) Haul big and little chunks to a coarse crusher.
3) Next a fine crusher.
4) Next a rod mill (A wet process by the way)
5) Next a ball mill (Another wet process).

Then you have a rock powder where you can extract the material with more magnetic characteristics from the metal with less.

But in a dune on Mars, nature has already given you the results of all 5 steps.

You would have to find a dry way to extract the magnetic materials, but it should be possible. You would likely use a moving permanent magnet or something simulating that.

After that you might try using a alternating magnetic field on the "Tailings", in the hope that their might be some non-ferrous metal particles, which could be extracted by induced magnetism.

Then the tailings could be discarded, or perhaps sintered into building materials. Perhaps whole buildings.

Any of the dune material could be baked for water. (I hope).

Other uses for the particles would be to make building materials by adding a glue.

Or you might feed the particles into a machine that makes mineral wool, and so then use the glue to make fiberglass.

I have seen the pictures of Mars, and it looks to me that their is hard packed surface that looks like broken pavement, and there are dunes.

NASA does not like the dunes because they are a hazard to the rovers. However if I were put outside with a shovel, I would rather shovel the dune material into a container, than to try to work the "Broken Pavement" surface.

However, it should be possible to design a vacuum system that would ingest dune material. Perhaps using a pressurized jet first to fluidize it. From there, a continuous process to extract what is desired.

However, I want RobertDycks frozen sea.

I will leave you with that. Not going to stick around and give more hand bites.

I might show up here an there, but hope to be null and void for the most part.

Last edited by Void (2015-11-01 13:44:22)

SpaceNut · 2015-11-01 17:19:41

All fingers still intact Void, no worries...
Not all sand is the same....even if it is the low hanging fruit for water.....

rocknest-mars.jpg?itok=UKBHcoCu

http://www.popsci.com/article/technolog … rtian-soil

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composition_of_Mars

The magnetic separation that Void talks of http://en-gb.eriez.com/resources/conten … hPaper.pdf which would capture the Fe2O3 page 10 on has the dry separation process

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_process

http://www.filtsep.com/view/10392/alumi … n-process/

louis · 2015-11-01 18:55:54

I think this is partly a matter of scale. In the early colony on Mars, the settlers won't need huge amounts of iron ore. It's probably easier (in terms of overall energy input and tonnage import) for a couple of settlers to scout for the iron ore and use a power drill to dig out a healthy amount rather than employ a complex array of magnets and conveyor belts.

Regarding the water...if there is 2-3% in the regolith next to your habitat (presumably in the form of small ice deposits), it's probably best to simply heat the regolith and extract the water, rather than locate a glacier or dig down to a frozen sea. Again, early settlers won't need huge amounts of water as long as they are numbered in the tens rather than thousands.

Void · 2015-11-01 19:47:15

Thank You Spacenut and Louis for very civil responses.

That soil looks more easy to dig Spacenut, you could likely employ a relatively simple robot to extract a small amount of magnetic iron/nickel from that soil, most likely there will be some so thanks.

Louis, You and I might be converging on the notion of moisture. Again, I suggest that a vacuum cleaner with a pressurized spray nozzle might allow a robot to inhale small grains which might be Ubiquitous to the surface of Mars, and might on occasion pile up into dunes.
An easy product to try to extract might be moisture (We hope). I hadn't though of small quantities of water being bound as ice. That could be true. I had rather though of it being bound to salts in the soil, and also to hydrated minerals, and then there are situations where water vapor can be bound to mineral grains. Usually Silica. However Silica may be a minority content, and Basalt grains more prevalent. I do not know about grain binding in Basalt sand in dry conditions, but it is something I might want to know.

Some vague reference to water bound to mineral grains:
https://books.google.com/books?id=JbGL9 … ns&f=false
But I think we can both agree that for the start water bound to soil may very well be sufficient.

Going forward to expansion (And profit ), a large dune or a buried ice body or an accessible aquifer may be desired.

I am open to options on that. I really think we start with some type of soil process, and move on to grown up water later.

For Iron, and other metals, lets investigate the dunes/soil, and lets also get your ore deposits, lets see if we can get our metals either way, and then depending on the tools and situation the people who must survive have every right to choose the best deal for themselves, and I will welcome your method as well as what I suggest, I just want to put that suggestion on the table. I am grasping at straws, but I am hoping that some of the metal grains in dunes will be for other metals of much greater value. A long shot, but well worth having a look for.
After all grains of various sorts have been raining down on Mars from the asteroid belt for billions of years?

I will make note that if you can vacuum up mineral grains, and suspend them in a air column and then expose those suspended grains to concentrated solar energy, you may raise those individual grains to very high temperatures. This is different than heating a bucket of dirt, and may be much more suitable to automation/robots.

Last edited by Void (2015-11-01 19:56:15)

SpaceNut · 2015-11-01 21:22:17

Here are a few more lose soil images...

louis · 2015-11-02 18:11:44

I am not sure how water manifests itself in the soil. I am not sure the scientists really know. But I am pretty sure that if the chemical signatures are there then it will get released through heating and capturing it is probably not that difficult. Delivering the energy to heat stuff on Mars should be pretty easy either through PV panels or a nuclear reactor (I favour the former). I would agree robots could probably perform the whole procedure independently of humans (even better - before humans even set foot on the planet, so we know the water supply is there).

Regarding how we procure iron, well I agree that should be a pragmatic issue, but first we should deliver humans to Mars because steel making is a complex process that currently, at least, is best supervised by humans rather than robots.

Void wrote:

Thank You Spacenut and Louis for very civil responses.
. This is different than heating a bucket of dirt, and may be much more suitable to automation/robots.

SpaceNut · 2015-11-02 19:04:37

Just triming up the large quotes.......

Void a picture is worth a thousand words and here is the suggestion for Earth useage....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_excavation

SpaceNut · 2015-11-02 22:41:03

Interesting that Signs of Acid Fog Found on Mars

Planetary scientist Shoshanna Cole has pieced together a compelling story about how acidic vapors may have eaten at the rocks in a 100-acre area on Husband Hill in the Columbia Hills of Gusev Crater on Mars.

Across Cumberland Ridge - which is about 1/3 the size of a football field - the Mossbauer Spectrometer showed there was a surprisingly wide range in the proportion of oxidized iron to total iron, as if something had reacted with the iron in these rocks to different degrees. This iron oxidation state ranges from 0.43 to 0.94 across a span of only 30 meters.
More support of this idea comes from a 2004 study in which scientists conducted laboratory experiments exposing mock martian basalt rocks (based on data from the Mars Pathfinder mini-rover) to sulfuric and hydrochloric acids. The results indicated that as these rocks are exposed to acids, they lose their crystalline structure - just like what Cole sees in varying degrees across the Watchtower Class exposures.

Void · 2015-11-03 16:17:24

Well Spacenut, I goofed up, I partially posted my answer to your 2nd to last post at another location. But your last post there involved both Mars and the Moon, so maybe you will forgive me for posting this whole thing. If not, let me know and I will remove references to the Moon as much as I can.

I don't know what to think about the acid mist. There are a lot of things we still need to learn about Mars, it appears.

Replicated from:::⦁ » ⦁ Moon Detour, Ballistic Capture, Perhaps also Semi-Cyclers
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Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 983
Re: Moon Detour, Ballistic Capture, Perhaps also Semi-Cyclers
I liked both of your posts Spacenut, good stuff. Thankfully this thread has a dual topic, since we may consider the Moon to be a resource to facilitate access to Mars.
I am going to respond in reverse order, Mars first, then the Moon.
Mars: (I really feel this is a good one!)
http://arstechnica.com/science/2015/04/ … e-on-mars/
THESE ARE QUOTES:
Curiosity finds evidence of a daily water cycle on Mars
Conditions allow salts in the soil to pull water from the atmosphere
Curiosity has the advantage of carrying a Martian weather station and so is able to directly measure the conditions at Gale Crater, which is near the Martian equator. It finds that, throughout the Martian winter, the site would have a night-time relative humidity that's sufficient for perchlorate salts to latch on to water molecules. As the temperature warms during the day, the salts would give up the water to the atmosphere again, creating a water cycle. There are some indications from other sites that this cycle may create enough liquid that salts will gradually flow deeper into the soil.
This applies to the top few centimeters of the Martian surface; below that, temperatures should be cool enough for the salts to remain permanently hydrated, possibly forming an extremely salty brine. Further toward the poles, humidity should reach levels where "liquid brines are abundant," according to the authors.
END QUOTES

Extremely salty brine may not be directly available near the equator, but it sounds like hydrated calcium perchlorate could exist a few centimeters down. This should be good news for those who might hope to make Martian cement I think???
Anyway, I am going to try to suggest how a machine might pull that moisture up from down there.
1) A cart with multiple wheels. 4? 6?
2) Wheels having a wick like electrically compatible material as the tread surface.
3) A temporary tank to store gathered liquid water in.
* I will end the numbered list now and describe a whole machine that I think has chances.
The cart will operate during the day primarily, powered from solar panels most likely.
The first thing it will do is suck in air and pull electrons from it. That electron depleted air will be heated and expelled as a positively charged plume. The heating process is intended to cause the plume to rise away from the cart, rather then to contact the carts wheels.
The electrons collected will be given a path to the wheels of the cart, so that the wick-tread will be given a negative electrical charge. Relative to the positive plume and also relative to the average ground of the "ground" itself, and the general atmosphere.
U.V. light flux can be expected to react to the surface of the soil, where it should accelerate evaporation from the soil (I am thinking of humidity clinging to mineral grains, and any salt film, I am not thinking of a soil that would be expected to be wet).
Another effect of the U.V. light flux should be to ionize some of the water vapor. Positive Ions should contain Hydrogen, I think.
So, I am hoping to stimulate a ion flow into the tread of the wheels, I am anticipating that the cart will also travel, therefore exposing the wheel treads to fresh soil, as the previous soil is depleted of available positive ions.
You have an electric circuit, where the positive plume is the (+) and the electrons on the wheel tread are the (-). I do not want the electrons to travel in this circuit much beyond the wheels, but they might to some degree. That may not be fatal to the process.
So the Ions (I hope) will flow into the wheel tread. Here we might hope to use a vacuum to pluck them away. To make it effective, I hope that the wick of the tread will be joined to a continuation of the wick which will continue into a vacuum chamber for each wheel in the hubs.
Of course that vacuum chamber hub join will have to have a seal which allows the wheel to rotate, and allows (+) ions to flow into the hub,
and which serves as a restriction to unimpeded flow of atmosphere into the hub. Inside the hub will be the actual source of the electrons, and the (+) Ions will be given (-) electrons to satisfy them. If it is proven to be helpful, the interior of the hub can be heated as well to facilitate the plucking of water vapor molecules from the wick surface of the interior of the hub. Here, perhaps actually a light bulb would work, or perhaps a heat source similar to a soldering iron.
The pressure inside the hub, being significantly below ambient outside, and the temperature inside the hub being elevated, I would expect all water vapor collected to be present as a vapor. The vapor sucked into the pump would then be pressurized on the exhaust side of the air pump, and condensation methods would be employed to convert it to a liquid.
Perhaps daily, the cart would pull up to a master container, which is to contain water ice. It would have a means to discharge it's content into the master reservoir where it is desired it to will freeze. Of course this will require some type of co-ordination with the night cycle where cold temperatures for freezing will occur, and of course it will require fittings/doors suitable to discourage water losses to the atmosphere.
This may suit your desire to have water collected prior to human arrival, and of course it should still work after their arrival.
As for major sand dunes, that would be somewhat different, and not required for some time I think, since if water can be collected and the inhabitants have abilities to recycle, such vast quantities of water will not be needed at first. If this machine works, then perhaps it will never be done.
As for magnetic and non magnetic native metal fragments, collection of those may also be done with a cart.
Of course what I am trying to build on is methods which were reported to have worked. A plough blade charged with a negative charge, can be lubricated with water by putting a negative charge on it even in a seeming dry soil, and the water ions are attracted to the negative charge.
I am not saying the Mars analog is guaranteed to work, but it, or something like it may work for the desired effect.

The Moon:
Per the information supplied about the Moon, I suggest that the Moon might become a paying enterprise where you would first start with prospecting for concentrations of water bearing rocks, or valuable metal chunks. They are not likely to occur in the same locations it would seem.
Next robots with rakes and brushes deployed to those sites. The intention being to build a linear path where small materials/dust are swept to one side, and rocks are raked to the other. During this process a video recording may be useful. If certain alarms are triggered, notations of rocks of potential significance noted, and that information alarmed for.
As for the dust, it may be possible to extract magnetic and non-magnetic concentrations of metals from the dust during the sweeping.
Notable rocks would be metals, quartz, and perhaps hydrogen containing rocks.
Metals may be magnetic or non-magnetic (Even more valuable)
Robots may be able to collect those into appropriate bins.
Even more notable would be rocks which could have been ejected from the Earth during it's multi-billion year history. Those will be very valuable and I am sure scientists will want at least some of them.
I have previously proposed a different kind of spacesuit which would, I think be very suitable to what comes next. However, any suit desired can be contemplated. A lying down position (On a wheeled cart) will allow a human to investigate the row of rocks that were created by, in particular those which might be ejected by Earth.
The suit I suggested should allow a person doing that job to take a break, and do bodily functions. Eating/Elimiations/Naping, and little or no using diapers to deal with body functions.
So, with these methods, extracted and concentrated Hydro/Carbons, Metals for construction, Metals to ship back to Earth, Quartz or use ?,
and perhaps special rocks that came from the Earth.
By borrowing ideas from others about Mars, I would think that this process might be partially financed by Universities if they are given sole ownership of the rocks that are of interest to them.
Obviously a prosperous Moon operation might base a Mars operation. I have become convinced that most likely a Mars operation will resemble operations on Earth in Antarctica, for quite some time, unless there is a decision that Mars cannot have life now.
The point being that the Moon would be ours to play with until that day, and yet the Moon would also hasten the day that life would either be found on Mars, or a decision was made that "Enough is enough!", life is very unlikely.
Last edited by Void (Today 21:36:10)

Last edited by Void (2015-11-03 16:31:39)

Void · 2015-11-04 21:31:22

OK, I am ready to try to be specific:

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 47#p126447

http://fti.neep.wisc.edu/neep533/SPRING … ture19.pdf

If you scroll down to the "TES Geological Map of Mars", it appears the Louis might be right, there is a deposit of iron rich material, and interestingly it is adjacent also to a mild manifestation of dust, (I presume loose soil/dunes) and an area of Basalt Andesite.

So, I think for a first equatorial base, variety of geology in a smaller space could help provide a variety of mineral resources. That looks like a good place.

Last edited by Void (2015-11-04 21:35:00)

SpaceNut · 2015-11-05 22:01:58

While we know that water is priority 1 for insitu resource finding and use for the long term duration stays that astronauts and alike would want, what is the number 2 on the importance list is I think still is open for debate.

For thoses that are of the science mind the next attribute is less of one for insuti use but is more of one that fits the bill to answer questions. Then and only then will man go forth to seed the solar system one day.

Void · 2015-11-05 22:24:55

If I could guess, variation of geology, should be rather important to scientists. As well as good for material goods.
Build strength in the most friendly place, and then later expand to less easy places with an economic network, so making those locations available to deep research.

SpaceNut · 2015-11-06 20:38:13

From the posted link http://www.planetary.org/blogs/jason-da … kshop.html

There are scientific demands, such as searching for past and present life, conducting atmospheric and geological science, and answering questions about Mars’ history. Wish lists are defined all the way down to the types of rock available on the surface, such as "access to Noachian or pre-Noachian bedrock units," and "access to outcrops with remnant magnetization."

http://www.hou.usra.edu/meetings/explor … _Paper.pdf

Scientists are also being asked to consider how easily astronauts can prospect for water, manipulate the soil for landing pads and roads, and possibly produce food. NASA plans to decide in the next decade how reliant early explorers will be on in-situ resource utilization.

So lets develope the plan as we are already talking about every element of what we need to do for a crew to land and to be able to safely return from such a journey.

The problem for doing so is that cost matters....

SpaceNut · 2018-02-19 17:44:18

Just a small piece of the plan for going to mars in order for the crew to be successful...

Mars_B4_Moon · 2021-10-19 11:17:03

The clear question is water, I think where China put its mission they have less interest in the old studies and philosophicalquestions on stones, yes they do also study different rocks and the explore the different sciences from the rocks, although studying rocks and ancient and geology of Mars is part of their misson they also wanted to Land in a place where they could examine the possiblity sub surface waters. China has admitted one of the key instruments on their Rover landing the Zhurong with the Tianwen 1 robotic probe was to survey the surroundings to study Martian soil and atmosphere, and sample the air for signs of subsurface water ice, other probes from NASA/JPL, and studies from Europe and Japan and ISRO and Roscosmos also hint at water. We know today Mars has minerals that have water chemically bound to them, if there is a manned mission coming one day the crewed missions to Mars could extract this water by heating the hydrated minerals, the era of old stunts, first dog in space, first monkey in space, first satellite to the Moon, first manned landing on the Moon, all of that might be coming to an end a new era of claim and finding Groundwater distribution and First Captures of Water ice data so future people can survive and drink, how to transport materials from comets or asteroids, low tech manufacturing and 3d printing in space, Growing Seeds on the Moon and Mars and building Biodomes and Robotic Space Farms....that might be the new frontier?

NASA has now shown it may be able to transport things using flight or helicopters

I expect the Chinese to soon have many copycat, inspired, knock-off designs for their own Mars aircraft soon.

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