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#1 2015-10-16 01:09:05

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 5,810
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Corporate Government

National space agencies don't appear able to get us there. Here is a plan for corporate government. I posted about this before, but it's been a number of years, and I can't find it now.

First, anything corporate has to be profitable. My proposal is the primary source of revenue will be transporting settlers. The ship will be fuelled, supplied, and maintained from the Mars economy. But settlers will pay in Earth currency. This will take some investment to set up, but once operational all revenue from settler tickets will be profit.

Propellant can be manufactured on Mars, or one of its moons, or a carbonaceous chondrite Near Earth Asteroid. Propellant will be transported to Earth orbit, and stored in a depot. Food grown on the surface of Mars. And resources mined, refined, and equipment manufactured on Mars. So replacement parts will come from Mars, not Earth. Supplies like laundry detergent will be manufactured on Mars. This answers the question: how to get profit back to Earth.

Because primary revenue will come from settlers, the corporation will be highly motivated to make Mars attractive. People expect and demand that Mars will be free. That means absolutely no tax, and minimal regulation. It will be a place you can set up a town or village your way.

Basic structure of government. Mars will have two levels of government: federal and municipal. The federal government will have jurisdiction over the entire planet: it's surface from pole to pole, from prime meridian around to the prime meridian, it solid material down to the core and very centre of the planet, its atmosphere, and orbital space, and both moons. Everything. If anything isn't listed, it's included. The second level of government will be municipal: town or city government. There shall be no countries, no states, no provinces, no counties. Territory of a town will be just the land of a typical town, it won't be permitted to extend territory to the size of a state. This means the vast majority of Mars shall be "outback", to use an Australian term. The "outback" shall not be governed by anything other than federal law. And federal law shall be extremely minimal. This will leave a lot of land for future homesteads or settlements/towns/cities.

Federal law shall be libertarian. Thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, but other than that you're pretty much on your own. Of course there's details to that: assault, battery, robbery, theft, break-and-enter, embezzlement, malicious destruction of private property. But as an example of freedom, the capital city will have a municipal bylaw prohibiting driving while under the influence of alcohol, but not any federal law. So once outside city limits, you can drive your Mars rover while drinking. Of course crashing into a crater while drunk would invalidate any vehicle insurance, but that's all. You're on your own dude! Of course having vehicle insurance at all outside city limits would be up to you. If you want to smoke marijuana, as long as you don't do it in the sealed pressurized environment of a public space where others have to breathe it, go ahead. If you want to smoke marijuana in your homestead or in your rover, that's your business. If you have a headache and want to use a pill with codeine like a 222, no prescription required. Marriage will not be regulated, so if Mormons want to set up a community where polygamy is permitted, go ahead. If you consider children to be adult at a different age, that will be up to your community, not federal law.

Jewish tradition holds a bar mitzvah for a boy or bat mitzvah for a girl on their 13th birthday. That is considered passage from child to adult. Even in Canada in the late 1800s, laws stated a girl became a woman suitable for marriage at age 14. The term "maid" meant a young woman who isn't married, typically a teenager. The term "old maid" meant a young woman who isn't married, but older than typical age that one gets married so perhaps too old to get married now. One was considered an "old maid" at age 18 or older. And this was North America in the late 1800s, and the 20th century prior to World War 1. How times have changed. When I took geography in high school, the teacher taught that many third world countries treated individuals as adults at age 17. Now there's a push to claim young women in their late teens who get pregnant are somehow a problem. I read an article about girls going through puberty at a younger age, and medical concerns why this is happening. The very same article admitted that malnutrition is documented to delay puberty, and girls are getting much better nutrition now. The article admitted the possibility that this is normal and natural for the human body, but the author refused to accept that. Many species of animal mature more quickly and produce more offspring when food is plentiful, but some people refuse to accept that humans do this too. Instead North American society refuses to accept individuals as adults until an ever increasing age. There is no reason this would continue on Mars.

The corporation will set up a capital city. This city will make supplies for the ship, and equipment to maintain it. The capital city will also provide basic needs for settlers. For strictly selfish reasons, all settlers will arrive at the capital city. The corporation will advertise jobs for new arrivals. The cost of a ticket will typically be so much that you will have to sell your house, your car, liquidate any life insurance and retirement savings. For a middle class individual, it will cost your entire life savings just for a ticket for yourself, your spouse and children, and some luggage. So you just arrive and have nothing. Come work for the corporation! We provide free apartment, free utilities, while you're at work we provide free cafeteria meals. Free healthcare for all company employees and their immediate family. Free public transit from the company dormitory to the company office or factory. Come work for us, save up for a homestead in the outback. Oh, did we mention our pay rate is peanuts. (Oh! Don't mention that part!) The company store sells kits for a homestead: pressure building, airlock, recycling life support, solar panels, greenhouse. So you want chemical/mechanical oxygen and water recycling, or a substantial greenhouse with grey water sewage processing? All available for the low-low price of many years savings.

You can set up a cottage industry to make food, or manufacture items to sell to other settlers. Can you make a better spacesuit helmet than the company factory? The company doesn't mind; Mars will need so many things that the company factory can just make something else. After all, tickets for new setters is how the corporation makes its primary income. If you succeed on Mars, the company will use you as their poster boy to recruit more customers. Oh, did we mention? When you signed the contract to emigrate to Mars, that included a clause granting the corporation free use of your image and your success story for their marketing campaigns. So the company loves successful settlers. And since you're so successful, please buy more stuff from the company store.

Mars shall have no tax. None. The capital city will have pressurized space where a businessman can construct an apartment building, factory, or retail mall. Since the space is pressurized, heated, air recycled, and the city provides basic services like police, garbage collection, sidewalks (corridors), and parks, the space will have a rental fee. That rent shall cover everything property tax does on Earth. Utilities will be extra, such as electricity, water, sewer, internet. No need to have separate cable TV or telephone, just streaming and VoIP. Garbage will have to be separated into recyclables, yard waste, compost, and general garbage. Kitchen scraps will go into compost. I've read of cities here in North America that enforce this: if you don't separate your garbage, the garbage man will put a sticker on your bags to remind you, and refuse to pick up. That sounds appropriate.

There won't be welfare on Mars. Instead job training. If you're unemployed and need help, then a centre in the capital city will give you an aptitude test. You will then have interviews with prospective employers. Once you're accepted by an employer, you will go through job training. This will be treated as a loan, paid for by mandatory payroll deduction until the loan is paid off. The employer will be prohibited from firing you until your loan is paid. However, the employer can give you the worst, nastiest jobs at the company, so do a good job. You don't want to do that? Fine! You don't have to. But realize any apartment within the capital city has rent. If you buy a condo, then a condo in the capital city will have "condo fees" to cover pressure, heat, air recycling, etc. How are you going to pay for that? If you can survive outside in the outback, fine! No problem. Then you don't need help. But if bad comes to worse, realize every ticket to Mars includes a free return back to Earth.

Initially, police in the capital city will double as federal police. However, bylaws for the capital city only have jurisdiction to city limits. Beyond that, only federal laws apply. And there will be very few federal laws.

The primary role of the federal government will be to prevent war. Towns will be prohibited from maintaining a military. If any town tries to engage in war upon another, then the federal military will intervene. War is mass murder, and will be treated as such. If a mayor and city council authorize war, they will be charged with mass murder of everyone killed. So tell me, what is the punishment for mass murder?

Only the federal government will be permitted to have a military. Even possession of weapons of war will be a federal offence. No tanks, fighter jets, cannons, mortars, missiles, bombs, machine guns, assault rifles, etc. Police will be permitted non-repeating weapons and non-lethal weapons only. Actually, I think only a special team of police, equivalent to SWAT, should be permitted any form of lethal weapon. The role of police is to bring a suspect to trial, not execute him. A newspaper article:

Disarm (some) police: Police in the United Kingdom, where modern policing was invented, normally don’t carry guns. Guns are reserved for special situations. But if needed, armed officers are on standby. Last year (2013), what are known as “armed response vehicles” were called in 13,000 times in England and Wales. But only the most senior and experienced officers are allowed to be part of these special teams. How many times did police fire their guns at suspects last year in England and Wales? Exactly three times.

Since this is corporate government, the corporation will pay for basic federal services. No income tax, no sales tax, no excise tax, no import/export duties, no property tax. Of course space within a pressurized city or town will have fees. It could be a dome, or more likely a pressurized building similar to a mall. But if you set up your own homestead in the outback, no fees. A city or town may establish a driver's license; after all operating a motor vehicle within a pressurized building can be dangerous. But no driver's license required beyond city limits.

This raises the question of how to pay for healthcare. I said "the corporation" will pay for healthcare for its employees. But what about everyone else? If someone gets hurt, you don't want to just leave them to die. Canada has universal healthcare. It provides a bed in a ward in a hospital, a private or semi-private room costs you. Visits to a doctor are covered, no limit and no co-payment or deductible. They found this gets people to see a doctor early, and serious conditions are less expensive to treat when caught early, so free doctor visits actually saves the system more than it costs. In Canada, healthcare is paid for differently in each province. Ontario has a premium, payroll deduction. Employees pay a portion, employers pay a portion. Manitoba doesn't, they chose to create a provincial sales tax to pay for healthcare. That sales tax now goes to general revenue, and healthcare is paid from general revenue. In 2013 they increased sales tax to pay for increased salary for provincial legislators, ministers, and senior civil servants. There were some other things, but that's another discussion. How do we pay for healthcare on Mars? Last time I posted this, I suggested a payroll tax for any employee who is not a member of the immediate family: spouse, child, parent. This would provide free healthcare to entrepreneurs who set up a homestead. One goal is to encourage cottage industry, to encourage settlers to set up a small business out of their homestead. Here on Earth, the little guy has often been screwed. It's time the tables were turned. Besides, again the primary business of "the corporation" shall be transport of settlers to Mars. Free unlimited healthcare for homesteaders sounds like an incentive. And payroll tax would penalize any large corporation that tries to compete with the founding company. Mwa ha ha ha ha! And payroll tax would not be instituted until we have a city with employers who hire employees. That will be an advanced stage of settlement. But last time I suggested payroll tax, people didn't like it. They were shocked at the idea of any sort of tax. Ok, then suggest an alternative.

Last edited by RobertDyck (2018-04-29 13:43:41)

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#2 2015-10-16 04:20:32

Terraformer
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From: Lancashire
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,133
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Re: Corporate Government

What? No.

Sure, set up a company to provide tickets and equipment to settlers. I want to do something like that with Luna. But don't go claiming that Mars is now under your jurisdiction as a result, and go around seizing peoples property.


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#3 2015-10-16 07:19:40

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 5,810
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Re: Corporate Government

Ah, there you go. I said minimal government. You said "seizing peoples property".

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#4 2015-10-16 07:46:36

Terraformer
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From: Lancashire
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,133
Website

Re: Corporate Government

Well, you *did* just talk about seizing people's property (guns, and taxes). Understand, if a company tries any funny business like that, they're going be ignored and their thugs shot. Folks want to go to get away from that crap, not to have the first person there try bringing it to Mars. There should be *no* government over Mars, save that which individual cities have opted in to.

A development company should do just that, development. If people don't bother to sort out their healthcare when they go over, then that's their own problem, as long as their in their own habitats.


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#5 2015-10-16 08:01:14

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
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Re: Corporate Government

Why do you want weapons of war?

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#6 2015-10-16 09:05:02

Terraformer
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From: Lancashire
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,133
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Re: Corporate Government

Why do you want them?


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#7 2015-10-16 10:10:06

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 5,810
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Re: Corporate Government

You are the one threatening to go to war with the government.

We have over 15 thousands years of recorded history. Every single year of recorded history has seen at least one war somewhere on this planet. As soon as you have multiple entities claiming to be countries, they will war over resources. They will try to claim vast areas of land. They will try to settle disputes with violence. The only way to prevent that is police. The fact you reacted so strongly to even the suggestion of police tells me you intend to use violence to commit theft, violence, and murder.

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#8 2015-10-16 11:04:54

Terraformer
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From: Lancashire
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,133
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Re: Corporate Government

No, you're the one who thinks there should be someone telling everyone else what to do, as indicated by your desire to have far more firepower than them.

When did Switzerland last invade someone?


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#9 2015-10-16 11:35:18

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 5,810
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Re: Corporate Government

So, you want war. If you can't engage in war with you're neighbors, you're willing to engage in war with police.

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#10 2015-10-16 17:52:06

louis
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From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 5,091

Re: Corporate Government

The reality I think is that it will be Space X who lead colonisation of Mars but they will use the US badge as a matter of convenience, as that will allow them to operate within the Outer Space Treaty.

I think many of the issues raised in this thread simply won't arise for several decades. We see in Antarctica there are some 5,000 people living on the continent without any effective government being in place, on the ground. 

I expect Mars colonies will probably function a bit like American campuses.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#11 2015-10-16 20:18:24

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,519

Re: Corporate Government

The ISS has a lot of simularities to the people that go to Antartica they both must share in conduct to make survival posible and police themselves accordingly as they all know what it will take to stay safe and healthy.

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#12 2015-10-17 03:28:57

Terraformer
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From: Lancashire
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,133
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Re: Corporate Government

Why use the US flag? It;s hardly a flag of convenience. It's more likely to be Nauru that has the first Martian colony, before they amicably part ways and allow it it's independence.


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#13 2015-10-17 06:42:39

Tom Kalbfus
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Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Corporate Government

Terraformer wrote:

Why use the US flag? It;s hardly a flag of convenience. It's more likely to be Nauru that has the first Martian colony, before they amicably part ways and allow it it's independence.

SpaceX is an American company, why wouldn't it use the American Flag, it does fly an American flag over their corporate headquarters at 1 Rocket Rd, Hawthorne, California 90250.
spacex_rogercarlson_img_9371.jpg?itok=iXV3jEUU

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#14 2015-10-17 06:47:51

Tom Kalbfus
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Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Corporate Government

louis wrote:

The reality I think is that it will be Space X who lead colonisation of Mars but they will use the US badge as a matter of convenience, as that will allow them to operate within the Outer Space Treaty.

I think many of the issues raised in this thread simply won't arise for several decades. We see in Antarctica there are some 5,000 people living on the continent without any effective government being in place, on the ground. 

I expect Mars colonies will probably function a bit like American campuses.

SpaceX employs a lot of people that used to work for NASA after all, it is convenient for them to be in America because that is where most of the Ex-NASA talent live, most are not likely to forgo their American citizenship to work in another country like China for instance. NASA didn't do much after Apollo, but what it was doing was still quite a bit compared to what other countries are doing, NASA is still the largest Space Agency in the World, it employs and has employed a lot of people, and NASA has done a lot of things did a lot of research and then moved on to other things, never quite accomplishing much, but it is leaving a lot of pieces behind that SpaceX is picking up.

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#15 2015-10-17 06:58:28

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 5,091

Re: Corporate Government

Tom Kalbfus wrote:
louis wrote:

The reality I think is that it will be Space X who lead colonisation of Mars but they will use the US badge as a matter of convenience, as that will allow them to operate within the Outer Space Treaty.

I think many of the issues raised in this thread simply won't arise for several decades. We see in Antarctica there are some 5,000 people living on the continent without any effective government being in place, on the ground. 

I expect Mars colonies will probably function a bit like American campuses.

SpaceX employs a lot of people that used to work for NASA after all, it is convenient for them to be in America because that is where most of the Ex-NASA talent live, most are not likely to forgo their American citizenship to work in another country like China for instance. NASA didn't do much after Apollo, but what it was doing was still quite a bit compared to what other countries are doing, NASA is still the largest Space Agency in the World, it employs and has employed a lot of people, and NASA has done a lot of things did a lot of research and then moved on to other things, never quite accomplishing much, but it is leaving a lot of pieces behind that SpaceX is picking up.

True. Another relevant factor might be the difficulty of muscling in on  NASA space communications network. Maybe it's just easier to piggy back on NASA. Having said this, I found this link which suggests perhaps Space X could acquire a communications network commercially.

http://www.exelisinc.com/solutions/Spac … fault.aspx


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#16 2015-10-17 14:28:41

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 5,810
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Re: Corporate Government

Robert Zubrin gave a talk at the University of North Dakota in Grand Forks. The North Dakota chapter invited Mars Society members from Winnipeg to come down. I did along with one other member; it's just a 2 1/2 hour drive, plus delays at the border. The talk was part of a lecture series that was part of a Master degree in Space Studies. Obviously I wasn't a student, but I attended Dr. Zubrin's talk. After they took Dr. Zubrin for dinner; he invited me to sit beside him. I mentioned my idea for a Canadian led international mission using the Russian Energia launch vehicle, although I didn't mention the idea of excluding the US. Dr. Zubrin said he didn't want Canada to lead colonization of Mars because he felt the American system of government is better than the Canadian one. This led to a discussion of Canada's federal government vs America's.

I mention this because of the extreme reaction against my proposal to ban weapons of war. American culture appears obsessed with weapons. And I didn't suggest prohibiting all weapons, just weapons of war.

When I grew up, we visited my grandparent's farm for 2 weeks every summer. Grandchildren were expected to take a 22 rifle and leg-hold traps to hunt gofers in the wheat field. Every day. What a farmer in Saskatchewan calls a "gofer" is a Richardson ground squirrel, and yes it was a squirrel rifle with 22-short ammunition. Hand a gun to a "tween" boy and tell him to kill something? You don't have to tell him twice. The sound of a gun caused gofers to hide underground for at least an hour; so one-shot/one-kill. Of course my younger brother and cousins insisted on target shooting after we returned from the field, and my brother insisted on buying 22-long ammunition with mushroom heads. Do you know what that does to a steel pop can? They weren't aluminum in the early 1970s. Only 5 shots and there isn't a can any more. Noise of the rifles kept gofers underground, so we only got one shot per day. I learned to shoot with my father's rifle: bolt action and steel sights. My cousin let me shoot his rifle once: semi-automatic with telescopic sight. It wasn't a question of whether to hit the gofer, it was which part of the body to hit. I got the gofer in its right eye.

Every autumn my father went hunting with his father in-law. It was male bonding. My father told me about it when I was adult, but as a child I remember fresh game: venison and duck. It was good.

But Mars has no wildlife. There is no need to hunt. And I didn't say ban all weapons, just weapons of war. Why would you want a tank? Why would you need mortars or land mines? Obviously you intend to kill someone. Perhaps we do need Canadian attitudes toward weapons, we do need Canadian culture on Mars.

If you really want American culture on Mars, then get the American government to get off its ass and get the job done. If America doesn't, someone else will.

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#17 2015-10-17 16:06:19

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Corporate Government

RobertDyck wrote:

But Mars has no wildlife. There is no need to hunt. And I didn't say ban all weapons, just weapons of war. Why would you want a tank? Why would you need mortars or land mines? Obviously you intend to kill someone. Perhaps we do need Canadian attitudes toward weapons, we do need Canadian culture on Mars.

Who's going to enforce it? Do you propose a Planetary Patrol to patrol the entire planet's surface, a surface that equals all the dry land on Earth? Good luck with that!

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#18 2015-10-17 16:36:02

Terraformer
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From: Lancashire
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,133
Website

Re: Corporate Government

He *is* proposing that. It's quite clear he wants to fight a war, because he wants to have weapons of war that no-one else has. Why else would someone want such weaponry?


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#19 2015-10-17 17:47:03

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,519

Re: Corporate Government

We are doing it again not on topic try another place or this....

RobertDyck your childhood sounds quite simular to those here in the northern USA area.. Now back to the topic please....

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#20 2015-10-17 18:20:46

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 5,810
Website

Re: Corporate Government

My long initial post has several points. First, a means to enforce no war. I am convinced that most people are nice, but a few are not. The small number of bullies act as criminals to just take what they want. So we need police. And these bullies tend to rise to power, becoming the head of government. Without a means of enforcement to prevent war, there will be war. So I proposed one. Obviously Terraformer doesn't like it.

I also proposed a means to make money. Any settlement has to be profitable to be successful. Years ago I posted an historical analogy of Newfoundland. Columbus sailed the ocean blue in 1492. Christopher Columbus was Italian, but he was funded by Queen Isabella of Spain. He found the Caribbean islands and Central America, so it shouldn't be a wonder that Spain settled that area and Spanish culture dominates Central America to this day. Once word of this discovery was brought to Europe, John Cabot left England in 1495 to see what he could discover. He hired two Icelandic guides, and took a northern route. He discovered Newfoundland. He documented the Grand Banks and a bay that formed a natural harbour where ships could weather a storm. The bay was discovered on a Catholic holiday called St. John the Baptist Day, so he called it St. John's harbour. Later that same summer, English fishermen sailed to the Grand Banks to harvest fish, and set up a camp on the shores of St. John's harbour to process the fish: fillet and salt for storage. That camp became a town, which became a city. It was the first European town in North America, and built a century before the Pilgrims landed on Plymouth Rock. It was built by businessmen, not any country. Today that city of St. John's is the capital city of the Canadian province of Newfoundland and Labrador. Later government sponsored colony of Roanoke failed.

I also pointed out that today we know the names of the ships of Christopher Columbus' expedition, names of officers, the exact date it left, and time of day. Not to the minute, but it was an evening. We know the same about John Cabot's expedition. All very well documented, even though it's more than 500 year ago. Ship design and navigation technology was based on military navy technology. But government colonies failed.

Private enterprise built the camp/town/city of St. John's, which still exists today. It was successful. Waterfront drive was the first street constructed in North America, built roughly a century before the Pilgrims of Plymouth Rock. But we don't know who built the street, how it was funded, or exactly when it was built. That street is still a downtown street today. But all we know is a letter from one person who visited St. John's did not mention any street, and another letter by a different person records it was there. So the street had to have been built between the dates of those two letters. Although commercial enterprise can build a successful business, and successful settlement, it really sucks at documentation.

Following the tradition of Newfoundland, I suggest a corporation establish the first settlement. We have rockets that are based on military technology. Guidance is based on military technology. NASA is a government exploration agency that can explore, demonstrate technology, and document resources and safe places to harbour. Provide all that information for free to commercial enterprise, then stay out of the way while enterprise builds a successful settlement.

I too have misgivings about a large corporation having that much control. Corporate towns tend to exert too much control, and corporate stores charge too much money. They use the corporate store to claw-back wages/salaries of employees. But I don't see any other way to get a settlement started. Space requires billions of dollars investment, that requires a major corporation.

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#21 2015-10-18 02:43:59

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Corporate Government

RobertDyck wrote:

My long initial post has several points. First, a means to enforce no war. I am convinced that most people are nice, but a few are not. The small number of bullies act as criminals to just take what they want. So we need police. And these bullies tend to rise to power, becoming the head of government. Without a means of enforcement to prevent war, there will be war. So I proposed one. Obviously Terraformer doesn't like it.

I also proposed a means to make money. Any settlement has to be profitable to be successful. Years ago I posted an historical analogy of Newfoundland. Columbus sailed the ocean blue in 1492. Christopher Columbus was Italian, but he was funded by Queen Isabella of Spain. He found the Caribbean islands and Central America, so it shouldn't be a wonder that Spain settled that area and Spanish culture dominates Central America to this day. Once word of this discovery was brought to Europe, John Cabot left England in 1495 to see what he could discover. He hired two Icelandic guides, and took a northern route. He discovered Newfoundland. He documented the Grand Banks and a bay that formed a natural harbour where ships could weather a storm. The bay was discovered on a Catholic holiday called St. John the Baptist Day, so he called it St. John's harbour. Later that same summer, English fishermen sailed to the Grand Banks to harvest fish, and set up a camp on the shores of St. John's harbour to process the fish: fillet and salt for storage. That camp became a town, which became a city. It was the first European town in North America, and built a century before the Pilgrims landed on Plymouth Rock. It was built by businessmen, not any country. Today that city of St. John's is the capital city of the Canadian province of Newfoundland and Labrador. Later government sponsored colony of Roanoke failed.

I also pointed out that today we know the names of the ships of Christopher Columbus' expedition, names of officers, the exact date it left, and time of day. Not to the minute, but it was an evening. We know the same about John Cabot's expedition. All very well documented, even though it's more than 500 year ago. Ship design and navigation technology was based on military navy technology. But government colonies failed.

Private enterprise built the camp/town/city of St. John's, which still exists today. It was successful. Waterfront drive was the first street constructed in North America, built roughly a century before the Pilgrims of Plymouth Rock. But we don't know who built the street, how it was funded, or exactly when it was built. That street is still a downtown street today. But all we know is a letter from one person who visited St. John's did not mention any street, and another letter by a different person records it was there. So the street had to have been built between the dates of those two letters. Although commercial enterprise can build a successful business, and successful settlement, it really sucks at documentation.

Following the tradition of Newfoundland, I suggest a corporation establish the first settlement. We have rockets that are based on military technology. Guidance is based on military technology. NASA is a government exploration agency that can explore, demonstrate technology, and document resources and safe places to harbour. Provide all that information for free to commercial enterprise, then stay out of the way while enterprise builds a successful settlement.

I too have misgivings about a large corporation having that much control. Corporate towns tend to exert too much control, and corporate stores charge too much money. They use the corporate store to claw-back wages/salaries of employees. But I don't see any other way to get a settlement started. Space requires billions of dollars investment, that requires a major corporation.

Walmart is a corporate store, their prices seem reasonable. Most stores I go to are run by corporations, there is Shop&Stop, Best Buy, Costco and others.

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#22 2015-10-18 08:28:32

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 16,519

Re: Corporate Government

The box stores/chain stores get there strength from spreading out and watching each stores profitability collectively they are strong but there are stores that are under achievers which do get closed with others opening up..most do not have but a few full time employees, which keeps people poor...

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#23 2015-10-18 09:40:40

Terraformer
Member
From: Lancashire
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,133
Website

Re: Corporate Government

I too have misgivings about a large corporation having that much control. Corporate towns tend to exert too much control, and corporate stores charge too much money. They use the corporate store to claw-back wages/salaries of employees. But I don't see any other way to get a settlement started. Space requires billions of dollars investment, that requires a major corporation.

Then why do you want them to take over the entire planet? Just stick to supplying settlers with what they need, and running city infrastructures under contract.


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#24 2015-10-18 10:15:43

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 5,810
Website

Re: Corporate Government

Terraformer wrote:

Then why do you want them to take over the entire planet? Just stick to supplying settlers with what they need, and running city infrastructures under contract.

If there is no police to enforce "no war", then there will be war. If there is no police to say you can't create a country, all you get is a town, then someone will try to create a country. If there is no police to say you can't claim vast areas, then someone will try to do it. That's the role of the federal government. And you can't impose authority after the fact, it has to be established before any settlers show up.

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#25 2015-10-19 07:11:52

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Corporate Government

SpaceNut wrote:

The box stores/chain stores get there strength from spreading out and watching each stores profitability collectively they are strong but there are stores that are under achievers which do get closed with others opening up..most do not have but a few full time employees, which keeps people poor...

That is how the free market keeps prices down, also chain stores have an advantage, if you see one, you pretty much know what's inside, you know for instance that you won't find a hamburger in a Kentucky Fried Chicken. I'm much more likely to go to a McDonalds than eat at Joe's Dinner. Usually I go to McDonalds because I'm hungry and am in a hurry, I may be called off to work at any moment, also I have an idea of how much things will cost at McDonalds. If I sit down at Joe's Diner, a waitress will show me to a table, hand me a menu and ask if I would like anything to drink. So I look at the Menu, pick an entry, and wait about 30 minutes for it to be cooked, then spend another 30 minutes eating it, then I ask for the check and usually it comes out to be around $20 to $30 dollars. Now if I just want something to eat in a hurry for about $10, I go to a place like McDonalds.

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