Free flowing water found on Mars?

Void · 2015-10-01 15:55:58

Well, I am glad someone is talking. I was afraid everyone died from a greenhouse gass emission.
Your information is greater than my knowledge. Good stuff. I do think that a method for chemisynthesis should continue to be considered and perhaps developed. But perhaps a lesser priority.
I would say that rather easily, if growing spirolina in a "Water tower" (Tower with transparent water filled bubble), with solar concentrator power, I would think the desired chemestry could be aquired. However spirolina is food alread, so why bother.
The method I suggest if built to overcapacity would not only supplement food, but could easily be a provider of O2 for rocket fuel, and with various methods, fuels.
But in speaking with Louis about CO and O2 for producing food, I basically agreed with him that the case for it is not compelling, and it might consume too much water at any equator colony depending on the water that is mentioned in this thread.
As for Greenhousing Mars.
I regard it as a third rate priority at this point, if the planet is to be inhabited.
1) A scattering of equatorial communities dependant primarily on solar power.
2) If it is true, that there are deep reservoirs of ice or ice and even water,
http://phys.org/news/2015-09-hypothesis … loods.html

In the words of the Geology Department researchers, "Our research suggests that, given that the process was regional rather than global, there could still be large reservoirs of subterranean water trapped under the surface of Mars, in the areas around the old northern ocean, or in other parts of the planet where seas and lakes formed at the same time."
Read more at: http://phys.org/news/2015-09-hypothesis … s.html#jCp

So, although the presumed (And maybe) water could be drilled down to perhaps, actually I am interested in deep layers of ice.

I am thinking of building one big building in the ice. However with a manufactured roof, but that could be weighted down with ice ballast or water ballast, but I am thinking that it could be built like a snail shell, where new cells (Chambers) could be added on in a spiral fashion.
How deep? Whatever. But a very large multi-chambered facility, and for make up (Replacement water), new chambers added, where the water ice is mined to make room for the chamber under construction.

The point being a very large facility for a very large population. Of course more of them could be built.

For greenhouse gasses, I am thinking that will be done only as an after thought. They will not have to be very exotic either. But if the residents of Mars have other thoughts, they of course can mine the chemicals you propose, and do an intentional terraforming as the main focus.

I on the other hand think they would be better off making a contained sub-world which can house a large population. Although recycling would be expected, there would be garbage that could be decomposed thermally to generate greenhouse gasses.

If Mars does have a northern hemisphere covered with miles / km of ice/sediments, I think the inhabitants would do well to think it over as to if they want a ocean covering half of the planet, or would they like to warm it just enough for tundra conditions which would more or less turn the northern hemisphere into a permafrost undercoated tundra.

The southern hemisphere, might naturally get warmer, because if I recall, it's summers are naturally warmer, and it's winters naturally colder. So, do you want a tundra and perhaps tiaga north, and just possibly a desert/steppe/savanna southern hemisphere. Most of which you could walk on. Or do you want to try to melt the entire planet, and endure centuries of unstable surface in the northern hemisphere.

It's not my decision, just a question I ask.

Last edited by Void (2015-10-01 16:11:29)

louis · 2015-10-02 07:07:58

The principle should be that energy (solar power) is freely available on Mars so for oxygen extraction and other chemical processes, the emphasis should be on energy use rather than importing complex heavy machinery.

I agree that terraforming is something of a distraction at this point.

I also agree not enough work has been done on the potential for ice structures to be used for construction. I have previously speculated that ice might be used to form air lock doors (melt to "open" the door; freeze water - i.e. expose to the Martian environment -to "close" it). Large ice warehouses could be useful. With aerogel linings, perhaps they could be used for human habitation.

Void · 2015-10-02 09:56:17

Louis said:

The principle should be that energy (solar power) is freely available on Mars so for oxygen extraction and other chemical processes, the emphasis should be on energy use rather than importing complex heavy machinery.
I agree that terraforming is something of a distraction at this point.I also agree not enough work has been done on the potential for ice structures to be used for construction. I have previously speculated that ice might be used to form air lock doors (melt to "open" the door; freeze water - i.e. expose to the Martian environment -to "close" it). Large ice warehouses could be useful. With aerogel linings, perhaps they could be used for human habitation.

Solar then would appear to come in three flavors recognizable now.
1) Solar Photovotaic (Or similar).
2) Solar Thermal.
3) Solar organic.
I have previously focused on ice covered lakes, which could be considered partially 2 & 3. The notion here was there is so much of Mars that is cold and icy like Antarctica, why not adapt to what it is more compatible to do. The plan has some merit, and I do not abaondon it, but have always considered that it must come later, if there were any posibility to inhabit the equator effectively. The limitation on habitation of the equator was a described lack of water there.
So we were left with mining ice, or drilling for aquifers as our methods to obtain water. Those generally would have required heavy machinery. Now, if it is possible that small quantities of water are collectible at certain locations around the equator, it is reasonable to think if a dispersed set of starter comunities at the equator, and from there seqwaying towards either or both drilling for aquifers, and adapting to high lattitude habitations utilizing large quantities of ice and water extensively.
I am begininning to think that in fact a likely situation at the equator is that aquifers that were charged thousands/millions of years ago by snowfalls, and ice deposites, may be gradually evaporating, and in the process, of the vapors traveling to the surface, the vapors condensing into ice pockets near the colder surface. The brines then causing some of it to become visible from orbit. That is a hope anyway.
So, if this is true or not, but somehow such small pockets of water are availible, I certainly have to see the logic of starting at the equator. But I see that as being a very sparse population. Getting ahold of massive water supplies still will be the big prise.
So, I think a megacity is a good idea after the equatorial sparse population is established. I was thinking of finding massive ice as close to the equator as possible. However there is this! Some of the kids out there have done a good thing. I think you just hinted about this.
http://www.cnet.com/news/3d-printable-i … e-on-mars/
http://www.marsicehouse.com/introductio … vd8uoqguge
I was thinking of some nasty underground snail shell spiral chambered city, with ice or water for counter pressure. However the idea in the link, does have greater attractiveness. I would think that with the 3D printing you also could add a small amount of fibers to the ice, say carbon/plastic? something or other. Anyway, I want a megacity for economic efficiency. Given that you could have ice covered lakes, ice houses, and ice tunnels, a city can be contemplated. A massive multipart habitat where the inhabitants will normally not be involved in EVA's on the surface in suits.
Likely they will need Protective gear for construction, and for accessing areas with only partial life support. Example: for working in very cold ice tunnels, you want arctic clothing, and perhaps if the confined space atmosphere is potentially toxic, you want breathing gear.
I see that if you really wanted to generate large amounts of economic activity a city like this would be suitable.
Per the link, happy circumstances could be available for the inhabitants.
Connectivity: Ice tunnels like subways would link the various above ground buildings.
Other tunnels would be continuously expanded to provide make up water, and also to provide emergency survival habitat in the event of some above ground habitat problem. Such a tunnel network would also provide long term storage for food, and fuel, Oxidizer.
Tunnels would also allow for connecting underground mines to this city. While it will be diffacult to expect high grade ores to be present, they might be. And for a relatively convenient situation such as the ice city, lower grade ores might be worked with.
But you stressed solar;
Tom, really started some thoughts in my head, when he suggested landing a water tower on Mars, so that people could take showers
It from previous discussions it did occur to me that you could do so. At the equator and also at the ice city.
So, indeed, build a transparent bubble to grow Spirulina:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirulina … upplement)
Cultivation:
http://www.startupbizhub.com/growing-spirulina.htm

The best places to grow spirulina are old hangar or old buildings of an airport. Other places that provide protection from snow, rain, and wind are also ideal. The main factors in planting spirulina are water, minerals, heat and sunlight.
Certain level of knowledge in spirulina plantation is recommended to gain advantage against other spirulina growers. Once you have planted enough spirulina plants, the next thing to do is to search for clients or buyers. Since spirulina can be used in producing different products, searching for buyers or clients is relatively easy. Spirulina can also be used in producing biodiesel.

In diluted urine:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1361757/
A nice video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfVmsUHJWaw
I guess if you have lots of food and Oxygen you can grow fish. But the settlers can have their choices.

Provide a tower to put your bubble on. On the equator early towers could involve hills, or piles or rocks.
In the ice city, of course your tower can at least partialy be of ice.
In most locations of Mars, without solar concentration efforts, your bubble of water to grow Spirolina will be subject to freezing. So when the sun goes down you will have to consider what to do about that. A larger installation might be fine over a normal night.
Anyway, I am thinking Heliostats. They would make the difference from having a silly attempt to grow Spirolina in a tower, and having a real potential to have economic gain.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliostat
A picture is worth a thousand words:

So, now you have a machine which can heat the water to temperatures the Spirolina best grows in, and you can incease the photon density inside your window bubble. So, you potentially have a massive source of Oxygen, and perhaps biofuels, and of course food.
Further, if you build a power generating system into this you can play further games.
-Your power generation system not boiling water but some fluid with a lower vapor pressure. You heat it is coils inside of your transparent bubble. You then conduct the heated fluids to a power generating machine (Turbine?). And of course you may use typical ambient Martian temperatures to provide the means to condense the fluid.
If done correctly then you can cool the waters inside your transparent bubble, and so may focus even more heliostats on the bubble, therefore increasing the photon density. If you stir the Spriolina, then you can make best use of this photon density, since you would be presenting the organisms to breif intense exposures to photons, and then letting them "Rest" inside the group. Of course there will be a limit of utility for this. Spirolina may like lots of light but would not like too much light. I don't know what the limits would be. However, of course that can be determined.
So Heliostats would lend themselves to mass production. Should they malfunction, an robot could move them into a pressurized garage for servicing.
As for the transparent bubble. I have previously tended to try to use counterpressure measures to interface with the Martian environment. However in this case, I am thinking tensile strengths, probabbly some type of "Plastic", that is not glass, something of a transparent film. I think you know what I mean. Better people than me can effictively figure out what would be best.
By using photon concentration with Heliostats, best economic benefits can be obtained, while minimizing the amount of differential pressure holding window you would have to provide.

Oh, also, of course if you have heated water you can have a method to heat your hab, and also in it's methods provide distilled water.

Last edited by Void (2015-10-02 11:09:39)

Void · 2015-10-02 11:16:34

As a result of these discussions, I am inclined to provide a different Mars future, and contrast to existing ones.

I think that rather than radical thermal terraforming, instead, the CO2 should be treated where the Carbon is extracted to create plastics.
If the northern hemisphere is indeed covered with a deep layer of ice and sediments, then virtually that entire hemisphere could be a continuous city, with underground trains for connections.

Ideally, a atmosphere with sufficient Oxygen for breathing, but not that much greenhouse effect. Easy to say. However, an entire northern hemisphere city with spirulina towers could likely produce a lot of plastics and a lot of Oxygen. The northern hemisphere might we warmed enough for some tundra and tiaga in some places. Perhaps at lower latitudes.

As for the southern hemisphere, you could extract melt water from the southern ice cap, and conduct it to open air farms for irrigation, or to produce open air lakes. If those environments were too cold for crops, then you could add heat with orbital mirrors. For instance Hellas might be filled with quite a few lakes from irrigation water, and those lakes might be well lighted with supplementation from orbital mirrors.
A nice diversion from the "Northern Mega City".

I think overheating the planet might actually ruin it's potential to benefit the human race.

Last edited by Void (2015-10-02 16:33:25)

Void · 2015-10-02 16:33:55

An alternate habitation/terraforming scheme for Mars, based on the contents of the thread.
-First of all habitation and habitat are more important than terraforming, partial or full(good luck).
-Second, consider the atmosphere of Mars to be a conveyor belt for Carbon, first it is a container of Carbon, and when depleted, it will recieve more Carbon from other reservoirs.
-Polar ice caps
-Regolith
-Asteroids
The Carbon is valuable, and is to be joined with Hydrogen from Martian ice, and other substances as well, to produce bulk materials such as plastics.
If a heliostat and tower system becomes the primary solar biosphere for the northern hemisphere, then free Oxygen would be released to the atmsphere.
I am inclined to think that Ozone will have a hard time existing in an atmosphere dominated by CO2, and further it is not compatible with Chlorine, so unless some type if UV resistant organism can be engineered, I don't really see a very big possiblity for an exposed biosphere on Mars unless that is modified.
So, I actually would like to see the Carbon and Chlorine pulled out of the atmosphere. That would reduce the atmospheric pressure, so it would be good to add CO2 from the polar caps, and Regolith, at a steady pace, while eventually generating a O2 dominated atmosphere with just a pinch of CO2, and as little Chlorine as possible.
Once CO2 was a minor component, it would be necessary to extract CO2 at a greater expense. One possible method could involve an organism with Hemoglobin, but we already have technologies to extract CO2 anyway.
At that point, I would hope an Ozone layer would occur, and small life might take root on the surface, Lichens, Cyanobacteria, bacteria, Algae, but not in great significance without nurturing.
Even at 6mb pressure, an O2 dominated atmoshere with an Ozone layer on high would have many benefits. For instance any habitat or space suit with a power supply might be able to draw from it to provide breathing gasses for humans. Also, the Ozone if not in contact with manufactured materials would help to protect them from deterioration from U.V. light.
I have mentioned a trickle of CO2 still going into the atmosphere. That would be regulated thermally for the reseroirs of the polar ice caps, and the Regolith.
As for asteroids, the number of suitable asteroids made to encounter the atmosphere would determine that Carbon contribution.
With a trickle of Carbon Dioxide, and the extensive water ice that is now thought may lie below the surface of the northern hemisphere, it is reasonable that from a 6 mb atmosphere pressure, you might hope to rise to a fractional bar atmosphere almost entirely of O2. That can be modified if a reasonable source of Nitrogen can be obtained to add to the atmosphere. That is the goal would be an atmosphere humans could breath without a space suit.
At the point where the atmosphere is fully Oxidized for humans, the trickle of CO2 has to be turned off. That would be done by lowering temperatures, and by of course stopping adding asteroid materials.
Thermal regulation should be possible by regulation of greenhouse gasses in the atmosphere, and also since the northen biosphere would be associated with a massive number of Heliostats, the Heliostats could be used to regulate the refectiveness of the northern hemisphere.
So, it would not be impossible to imagine with the existance of an Ozone layer, placing an artifical soil at locations in the northern hemisphere, that would support tundra or cold tiaga.
Since the Heliostats should be able to fine tune temperature in local areas of the northern hemisphere, for brief periods say a few months above freezing temperatures tollerated, to allow that sort of surface biosphere.
Otherwise, ice covered lakes are not ruled out and of course open water tundra and tiaga permafrost lined ponds.
As for the Southern Hemisphere, I would anticipate that such a Mars would have little trouble having mirrors in orbit that would add heat to the southern hemisphere. That to create rivers and canals from the south polar ice cap, and to conduct that water to locations of irrigation, and lakes.

Last edited by Void (2015-10-04 12:40:17)

Void · 2015-10-04 12:41:32

Spacenut, I will try to pull this all back on topic.
Louis, Yes, in a system of ice tunnels/warehouses, I can see the logic of your freeze air lock. If you had various systems of ice tunnels/warehouses, they could be connected and connection altered by a network of such. For instance, a warehouse tunnel system could be left open to the surface for a time, and loaded with raw materials. Then the door to the outside closed. The warehouse pressurized with Mars atmosphere, or Nitrogen/Argon from the atmosphere, and then an connection opened to a pressurized system. An equalized pressure, but still you would need to deal with toxic atmosphere potentials. The raw materials could be consumed, and the "Voids" so created filled with manufactured items. Then when the warehouse was filled the process would be reversed, and the manufactured materials deployed to the surface to fill a purpose, and of course more raw materials to fill the warehouse again.

I have never been comfortable with the notion of airlocks for humans also being used for moving bulk materials. Such airlocks will always have to be kept at high standards of maintenance, and the risk to humans by using them for bulk transfers, would be high. Also the cost would be high.

Tom started it with the water tower notion. I am becoming very comfortable with a notion where a building looking like a lighthouse would be very suitable, as a mass produced device. The top of it being a biological solar collector, with thermal properties as well. A proposed biology based on Spirolina.

I would speculate that the thing might look like a lighthouse with a crystal ball on top of it. I would speculate that since photons will be able to enter the "Crystal Ball" from several directions, perhaps ~12 times as much light as normal could be focused on it. This would be ~6 times normal Earth light.

The body of the "Lighthouse" would be tubular/conical, and could have observation ports in it, those of course below the crystal ball.

The crystal ball might overheat, but lets think about making that a asset. The root of the lighthouse tube/cone extending well underground, a radiator being available, from the ground. Particularly if you embed tubes below the soil in the ground. The heliostats shading the ground, by intercepting light and redirecting it to the crystal ball, the ground temperature as Mars now exists should be quite cold. I would think that you should be able to have at least a differential temperature of 75 degC between the "Crystal Ball" in daytime, and the ground coils. So, a turbine power system, and also a method to cool the water of the crystal ball, allowing even more sunlight to be passed to it with the heliostats.

The heliostats perhaps having some solar cells on them, to run motors and electronics and computers and communications. The motors perhaps even being electrostatic, but that not being a requirement. The heliostats primarily make of plastics, and they being made largely with the Evil 3D printers. The plastics being derived from biofuels for spirolina, or human waste.

So, if what we now think is true, a "Human Mission" should aim for the equator, and establish a starter community which might experiment with variations of the things needed for a northern plains city. That might open Mars to a very large population, about the time that technology might allow a transfer of very large numbers of humans from Earth.

Back on topic now I think. If others want me to quit this, say so.

And Robert. We certainly want vegetables from more normal type greenhouses. Spirolina would only be as a food supplement, emergency food, and for biofuels and Oxygen generation, and eventually to terraform Mars.

Last edited by Void (2015-10-04 13:13:54)

SpaceNut · 2019-10-06 17:33:59

bump
power required to get water

SpaceNut · 2021-04-04 09:13:43

The spring season is coming upon us in the landing area of the lander Insight and soon water will stain the surface once more as it flows from underground ice packs.

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#26 2015-10-01 15:55:58

Re: Free flowing water found on Mars?

#27 2015-10-02 07:07:58

Re: Free flowing water found on Mars?

#28 2015-10-02 09:56:17

Re: Free flowing water found on Mars?

#29 2015-10-02 11:16:34

Re: Free flowing water found on Mars?

#30 2015-10-02 16:33:55

Re: Free flowing water found on Mars?

#31 2015-10-04 12:41:32

Re: Free flowing water found on Mars?

#32 2019-10-06 17:33:59

Re: Free flowing water found on Mars?

#33 2021-04-04 09:13:43

Re: Free flowing water found on Mars?

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