Crops

SpaceNut · 2015-09-07 14:22:55

The way to look at it is the size of the crop to grow just dropped in size as the food that was grown is not wasted by spoilage. But if the plot size is still kept that we can increase the variety of what gets grown as well and quite possibly increase the long duration growing season crops as well. Couple this with other preservative measures, canning and we just made it possible to keep healthy.
That said we can now give up the area to also other building materials(bamboo, trees,ect...), crops that are good to create fuels and so much more.

Void · 2015-09-07 16:00:05

OK, good, I can comprehend that.

I am going to suppose that being overweight could get you some frowns on Mars in the early days

RobertDyck · 2015-09-07 16:10:45

Earlier in this discussion thread I tried to estimate greenhouse area for crops to support 12 people in a permanent Mars base (settlement). Assume ambient light, with artificial light only during prolonged dust storms.

I summarized in post #73 on page 3 of this discussion thread. Not every crop was sized, but for those that were sized the total is 1859.378 m². Wheat was estimated to have a margin of error ±60 m², so summarizing to that many decimal places is perhaps not correct. So we're talking about a significant portion of a hectare, and that's for climate controlled greenhouses that operate continuously 365 days per year (668.6 sols per Mars orbital period).

Last edited by RobertDyck (2015-09-07 16:21:11)

SpaceNut · 2015-09-07 19:33:05

http://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/crops/wh … 14-23.aspx

wheatareayield11.jpg&width=480

http://www.agintheclassroom.org/Teacher … atnews.pdf

One bushel of wheat:
Weighs about 60 pounds, yields about 42 pounds of
white flour and around 60 pounds of whole-wheat flour.
Makes 90 one-pound loaves of whole-wheat bread.
Fills 53 boxes of cereal.
Makes 72 pounds of flour tortillas.
Bakes into 800 sponge cakes.
Rolls into 420 three-ounce cinnamon buns.
Makes 5,000 four-inch cookies.

RobertDyck · 2015-09-07 20:16:16

Ok, so for 2013/2014 yield per acre was 47.1 bushels per acre. Planted 56.2 million acres, harvested 45.2 million acres.
I said 632.75 square metres for wheat, rounded to 600. Let's use 632.75. That works out to 0.15635593012 acres (round to significant digits). Harvested vs planted shows only 80.4% of what you plant gets harvested, the rest is failed crops for one reason or another. Based on 47.1 bushels per acre, times 84.4%, that works out to 5.923 bushels per harvest. I also said harvest once every 4 months, because it's a climate controlled greenhouse. And assume base location is close to the equator, so variation in light is mostly Mars elliptical orbit. So every 4 months you get: 533 loaves of bread, or 313 boxes of cereal, or 4738 sponge cakes, or 2487 cinnamon buns, or 29614 cookies. The point is some combination thereof. Plus spaghetti, macaroni, noodles, dinner rolls, hamburger buns, pizza dough. And if you make meat substitutes like veggie ground round or harvest burgers or veggie pepperoni, they're mostly wheat and soy. Remember this is for 12 people.

Last edited by RobertDyck (2015-09-10 09:24:24)

RobertDyck · 2015-09-07 20:52:49

Void wrote:

Well my people haven't been proper farmers for at least 2 maybe 3 generations.

Not to worry. My grandparents on my father's side had a wheat farm. His parents (my great grandfather) founded the farm, it was a subsistence farm with pigs, chickens, cattle, horses, etc. My great grandfather came to Canada in 1881 as a 10-year-old. Established the farm as a young adult. So that would be some time in the 1890s, before tractors. But in my grandfather's day, the chicken coup and pig sty were empty, the horse barn was empty, and the cattle barn was converted to wheat storage. The old 1890s house was there, but my grandfather built a modern house with detached garage, and modern building for a tractor and combine. But we still used the outhouse when we visited. We were told to leave the washroom to grandma. After all, it emptied into a septic tank. The farm yard still had a few fruit trees, and 4 acre vegetable garden.

My mother also grew up on a farm, although her father wasn't successful at farming. I was told he got a job in a saw mill, then as a hand on a large successful farm, and later both maternal grandparents operated a successful restaurant. He turned out to be very good at building houses, became successful when he focussed on that.

When I grew up, we had a house in the city. My mother was a telephone operator before she got pregnant with me. Had worked her way up to supervisor of telephone operators by age 22. There wasn't maturity leave back then so she had to quit. My father was a steel construction worker, building bridges and big oil storage tanks at refineries. He quit that when my mother was pregnant with me, got a job as welder with the heavy equipment shop of the railroad. His title was "boiler maker". He got a community college engineering certificate in welding. Not a university engineering degree, it was a community college diploma that focussed on advanced welding techniques. So that made him the best welder in the heavy equipment shop. Both my parents believed whatever you chose to do, be the best.

The house where I grew up had a garden. At first the garden was twice the size of a double garage. But then dad built a double garage, cutting the garden to half size. But we all gardened. Harvested, cleaned, and preserved the vegetables.

So I've got some background, but it's not that much. It's mostly looking things up. Be confident, try stuff, don't be afraid to fail. That's how you learn.

My father made wine when I was a child. At first from kits, later from purchased grapes. When I rented a house in Toronto in 1989, it was an older couple's retirement home until they had to move to a nursing home. In the Italian end of town. It had 14 fruit trees and 6 grape vines, and they were Italian wine grapes. And they left wine making equipment. So I had to. When I moved to Winnipeg, I went to a nursery and asked for a grape vine that could survive Winnipeg's winter. Turned out they had two: one had large grapes, but was delicate. The other had grapes the size of blueberries, but so robust it just thrives in Winnipeg's climate. I got the latter. Most years I made good wine, but all the equipment had to be meticulously clean, and timing had to be perfect. I read that you have to let frost touch the grapes for maximum sweetness, maximum sugar. But one year I left them too long. All the leaves fell,and slow covered the grapes. But I didn't want to waste that year's crop, so made wine anyway. The wine had an odd flavour, but drank it anyway. A couple years later the liquor store had sample bottles of ice wine: airline size bottles. I bought one to taste what it's like. It had the same flavour. So I had made ice wine; people pay big money for that. I normally fill my 54-litre demijohn with wine, but that year because grapes had frozen on the vine and birds got some of them, it only made about 33 litres. That much ice wine would have been worth how much?

So don't be scared, just do it.

Last edited by RobertDyck (2015-09-07 21:14:58)

SpaceNut · 2015-09-07 21:07:48

Had to look up the Acres to square meters area units conversion factor is 4046.85642 ....to see the numbers.....

All we need then is the egg substitue and we can eat like kings and queens on Mars.....

RobertDyck · 2015-09-07 21:31:41

I make pancakes from scratch. I use 1 cup of all purpose flour, one quarter cup of soy milk powder (instead of dairy milk), one level table spoon of starch (instead of an egg), one level teaspoon baking powder, and half a teaspoon baking soda. Add one cup water, plus one table spoon water to go with the starch as egg substitute. I found through trial-and-error that the soy milk is much heavier than dairy milk or skim milk powder, so I add another 1/4 cup water.

The soy milk powder I get is from a store called the Bulk Barn. They have bins of bulk foods that you scoop into a plastic bag. Their soy milk powder is de-fatted soy flour. It doesn't have any preservatives, no salt or sugar, no carrageenan or xanthan gum (emulsifier), no calcium phosphate or calcium carbonate, no vitamin D, no additives what so ever. It's healthy, but don't try to mix a glass to drink like milk. It's appropriate for cooking and baking, such as pancakes or mac-and-cheese. There's also a kitchen appliance about the size of a blender that can make this from soybeans. So it can be made on Mars. And this is what I always use instead of milk. Am I dedicated or what? Actually, milk tends to spoil before I use it, while powder of some sort can last months. And it's a lot cheaper than skim milk powder. At that store, soy milk powder cost 25¢ per 100 grams and requires 1/4 cup per cup of "milk", while skim milk powder cost $1.35 per 100 grams and requires 1/3 cup per cup of milk. Call me frugal.

But I also buy soybean vegetable oil instead of canola oil, even though it's a tiny bit more expensive. The reason is a Mars settlement would make soybean oil, because soy would be needed for other things. So sticking to soy means I'm that much closer to a Mars diet. I also have a big bag of pea starch, not corn starch or potato starch. I could give the long winded explanation why.

The point is starch can be used as an egg substitute for many recipes.

Last edited by RobertDyck (2015-09-08 16:40:36)

Void · 2015-09-08 13:26:24

If I might break in temporarily.

I see you are most interested in the equator of Mars. I also note that the soil is supposed to hold a small percent of water, so could be a source of water. I cannot find out if that is hydrated minerals, or water bound to salt and soil grains (Easier to get out than hydrated minerals).

The point is I see enormous value in what you are planning here, it makes the most sense at the equator. I am wondering where you plan to get the water. I also am interested in sand dunes at the equator. Since they will have the average temperature and humidity of the equator (Daytime warmer and very dry, nighttime very cold and towards saturated RH). I wonder about drilling horizontally into a dune and hoping to aspirate out humidity from the drill hole. A dry well of sorts.

The Poles are much too challenging at this time. Glaciers in the mid latitudes are even quite a challenge because of long winters.

So, I am wondering how I might visualize starting a "Backpackers" settlement on the equator, and later linking it to a mid latitude settlement (Glacier) settlement later. And of course as I have said elsewhere I think the end game on Mars is to access massive amounts of water from the poles, but I don't think polar occupation can precede terraforming, and I don't think terraforming can be done without access to a mid latitude glacier.

Since the best glacier I can think of is in Hellas, how about a near equator starter colony just south of the equator, and some kind of a surface transport developed to that glacier location?

I can only make this post on topic, by tying it to your gardening, and of course that needs water, and this is what I am inquiring about, that and how would an equator settlement tie into a whole Mars settlement process?

RobertDyck · 2015-09-08 16:25:51

This is the "pack ice", in Elysium Planetia. It's the part of the ancient, dried-up ocean basin, where it crosses the equator. So low altitude (lots of atmosphere for radiation shielding), relatively flat and smooth (easy to land), and close to the equator (relatively warm, year round sunlight). This particular spot is 5° north. Also note "sploosh" craters. There at least was lots of water there. The MARSIS antenna on Mars Express has not been able to confirm water here, but that antenna is designed to look for formations kilometres thick, at least a good fraction of a kilometre. It isn't designed to look for ice only a few metres thick. From the article (click image for article):

The ice exists in a block that resemble polar ice on Earth, according to the research team. It measures about 497 by 559 miles (800 by 900 kilometers) and averages up to 150 feet (45 meters) deep.
The underground iceberg is just 2 million to 5 million years old -- recent in geologic terms. It formed when early hominids were roaming Earth.

So there's a good chance there's still ice there. Scientists think the lake formed when volcanic activity melted permafrost. That melt water pooled, then froze. Build a base on the shores of a major frozen lake?

Last edited by RobertDyck (2015-09-08 16:37:05)

Void · 2015-09-08 17:24:40

I think NASA is rather negative on the "Ice there idea". Europe not as much. Nasa thinks it's lava.

However I do recall a rather recent article which indicated opinions (And lots of evidence) that the Mariner Rift Valley has a layer of fossil ice buried deep in it's bottom, that is about 1 1/2 mile thick. I cannot find those articles now, no matter how I search the web.

Anyway the story was that this ice was deposited in an ancient era, the Amazonian or Noachian?

http://www.planetary.org/blogs/emily-la … onian.html

The idea is that when the atmosphere collapsed? A large bulk of water was deposited in various areas and buried deeply. Unless volcanism has melted it, supposedly much of it is still there due to the eternal cold temperatures of the upper crust. Well I didn't say it was true, I just say it was said.

So your notion may fit into that, ancient ice, volcanos.

But this article says 87% of original water is gone from Mars.
http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/ … 213143.htm

Scientists suspect that the glaciers remained intact because they are protected under a thick layer of dust.
In addition to evidence of river beds, streams and hydrated minerals, scientists studying telltale molecules in the Martian atmosphere have concluded that the planet probably had an ocean more than a mile deep covering almost half of its northern hemisphere.
However, Mars has lost about 87 per cent of that water, scientists say. Currently, the planet's largest known water reservoir is in the polar caps.

But are they just making an estimate of polar caps and presumed glaciers?

Heavy water is concentrated by 5 times it appears, and that might suggest that 20% of the original water is present.

But that would be deceiving if there had been a massive burial of original ice some 1/2 to 1 1/2 billion years ago. (EDIT: 1/2 to 1 1/2 years after the birth of Mars).

I just don't know. It's above my level. It is good to know what your thinking is however, thanks.

I do seem to recall a recent entry from Spacenut. If I recall correctly he indicated that there was some evidence for a reservoir of ice under the surface of Mars that was had a different isotope character than the surface water/ice. Hope I remember that right Spacenut.

So, I did a search for that, and bingo, it seems:
http://www.lakeconews.com/index.php?opt … Itemid=197

This illustration depicts Martian water reservoirs. Recent research provides evidence for the existence of a third reservoir that is intermediate in isotopic composition between the Red Planet’s mantle and its current atmosphere. These results support the hypothesis that a buried cryosphere accounts for a large part of the initial water budget of Mars. Image Credit: NASA.

And from NASA

So, am I the interpret the northern planes as being on top of an ancient frozen sea/glacier, dirty rubble?

Alright, I am risking off topic. We just want to water some potatoes. Peace Spacenut.

Last edited by Void (2015-09-08 22:27:54)

SpaceNut · 2015-09-08 20:50:58

Here is the chance to get advance data and to think forward to the next mission that we would want to have at this location as In March, 2016, NASA will launch the InSight mission to Mars - a robotic, stationary lander designed to study Mars geophysics. It is scheduled to land in Mars' Elysium Planitia (Plain of Ideal Happiness) on September 20, 2016.

insight-mars-landing-sites.jpg?1378322937

Void · 2015-09-08 22:29:59

Hmmm! Indeed.

RobertDyck · 2015-09-09 03:49:30

The pack ice is at 5°N, 150°E. That puts it about half way between the dot for Spirit and the dot for InSight. Curiosity is also close. Interesting how they're starting to focus on this area.

InSight carries a seismic microphone and thumper. Using sonar to map rock layers below, just like an oil exploration truck on Earth. The objective is to map the core of Mars. I attended the Lunar and Planetary Science Convention in 2005. In the geology track, scientists literally yelled at each other and called each other names. They argued whether Mars core is currently hot. Their argument tells me we don't have enough data. InSight will provide that data.

Very useful for a number of purposes. We could talk about terraforming an creating an artificial magnetic field. But it won't determine if the "pack ice" formation currently has ice.

Void · 2015-09-09 17:53:03

I seem to have found a supporting article for what you say.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elysium_Planitia

A 2005 photo of a locale within Elysium Planitia at 5° N, 150° E by the Mars Express spacecraft shows what may be ash-covered water ice. The volume of ice is estimated to be 800 km (500 mi) by 900 km (560 mi) in size and 45 m (148 ft) deep, similar in size and depth to the North Sea.[2] The ice is thought to be the remains of water floods from the Cerberus Fossae fissures about 2 to 10 million years ago. The surface of the area is broken into 'plates' like broken ice floating on a lake. Impact crater counts show that the plates are up to 1 million years older than the gap material, showing that the area solidified much too slowly for the material to be basaltic lava.[3]
The InSight mission is expected to land on Elysium Planitia in September 2016.[4]

I am very pleased to read the above.

I was hoping to find information on "Splosh" (I just learned the correct word is "Yuty" craters on the "Pack Ice" but I struck out on that.

It is a young area they indicated. Maybe nothing big has hit it yet.

So, it is looking good for your vegetables.

Alright, so I looked at the picture you provided:
h_mars_equator-ice-pic_02.jpg?1292263056

The upper one looks a bit "Sploshy". And is it my imagination, or aren't those craters unusually bowl like? Maybe?

I am glad I consulted you. I had bought the "Oh its lava story" some time back and gave up on that proposed frozen "Sea".

Last edited by Void (2015-09-09 18:02:44)

RobertDyck · 2015-09-09 19:12:22

For those from North America, surface area of this frozen sea is three times as large as all the Great Lakes combined. I guess calling it a lake is an understatement. One warning, though. Since it formed by volcanic activity melting permafrost in the bottom of the dried-up ocean basin, expect this will be salt water. Or salt ice. And the top will have Mars soil mixed in, and quite possibly volcanic ash. You'll have to filter it before you can drink it. And before you design a mission to depend on this for rocket propellant, first send a probe to verify. As GW Johnson said, a lot of the data from remote sensing has been refuted by ground explorers. And one hypothesis is this has layers of ice alternating with layers of hardened volcanic ash. How deep would we have to dig or drill at any given site before we reach ice we can melt for water?

If the average depth is as published, and if it's all pure water ice, then it would have 3 times the volume of all the Great Lakes combined. But if it does have significant layers of solid material, then volume of water would be reduced. Still, that's a lot.

Huge potential, but we need ground truth.

Last edited by RobertDyck (2015-09-09 19:12:54)

SpaceNut · 2015-09-09 19:44:30

http://www.freebase.com/m/02r13gk

Yuty is a crater on Mars in Chryse Planitia. The distinctive lobate ejecta pattern of craters like Yuty gave rise to a confusing terminology among Mars researchers. Sometimes informally called “splosh craters,” Yuty-type craters have also been called petal or flower craters and fluidized ejecta craters.

RobertDyck · 2015-09-09 19:58:02

European Space Agency is planning to launch the ExoMars mission soon. An orbiter will launch this January, a rover is scheduled for launch May 2018, land 2019. The rover will have a core drill that can penetrate 2 metres. I would love to send it here. But alas, Elysium is not one of the candidate sites. They want a site that hasn't been disturbed since Mars had a significant atmosphere, so the "recent" outflow that created this sea is exactly what rules it out.
ExoMars rover

In 2005 when Marc Garneau was president of the Canadian Space Agency, he wanted to send a Mars rover as large as Spirit or Opportunity. This would be a Canadian designed and built rover, with multi-segment core drill and sample handling equipment to deliver core samples to instruments. Each drill segment 1 metre long, with 10 segments so it could drill up to 10 metres deep. ESA and NASA would be invited to contribute instruments. Unfortunately Canadian parliament did not approve funding.

One Canadian company hoping to win the contract to build the rover was Thoth Technology. The same guys who proposed the Inflatable space elevator tower. They're now trying to raise funds for a mini-rover.
Northern Light Canadian Mars micro-rover and lander aim for 2018 launch

Members of the public who support the campaign will get a chance to help choose the landing site for the mission and will get rewards ranging from a Frisbee for $20 or the chance to name the lander for $1 million.

mission website: http://www.marsrocks.ca/news/index.html
Um, the crowd funding campaign had a deadline of last January 3rd. They wanted $1.1 million Canadian dollars, got $10,012. Well, that's something, but no rover. So much for sending that one to Elysium Planetia.
Indiegogo: Northern Light Mission to Mars
Near the end of the video on the crowd funding website, Caroline mentions three potential landing sites. One is Kasei Valles; she claims it may be a frozen lake bed. I looked at that site before; the data from the gamma ray and neutron spectrometers on Mars Odyssey found a lot of water there. Good potential. 24.6° north latitude is barely within Mars tropical latitude. Mars axial tilt is 25.19°.

Last edited by RobertDyck (2015-09-09 20:08:36)

RobertDyck · 2015-09-10 10:06:54

I said starch is an egg substitute for some recipes, such as pancakes. Other recipes use tapioca.

5 Vegan Substitutes for Eggs in Baking
Their substitutes: Ener-G Egg Replacer, Finely ground flax seed, Silken Tofu, Baking Soda and Vinegar, Banana. How much:
commercial Egg Replacer, ratios on the box
1 tablespoon of ground flax seeds and 3 tablespoons of water to replace 1 egg
1/4 cup of puréed tofu
1 teaspoon of baking soda mixed with 1 tablespoon of white vinegar
anywhere from 1/2 to 1 mashed banana

commercial egg replacer ingredients:

Potato Starch, Tapioca Flour, Leavening (Calcium Lactate, Calcium Carbonate, Cream of Tartar), Cellulose Gum, Modified Cellulose. Calcium Lactate is NOT dairy derived. It does not contain lactose.

Last sentence is theirs, including capitals.

Cream of tartar is also needed for baking powder. Baking powder is acid plus base that react when heated, plus starch as stabilizer. So it's baking soda, cream of tartar, starch. Baking soda is sodium bicarbonate; made with a chemical reaction from CO2 and sodium hydroxide. We need sodium hydroxide for various industrial purposes, it's made from salt and water and electricity.

Cream of tartar is made from grape juice. Notice I include grapes in the greenhouse.

Notice I just use starch for pancakes, instead of the full commercial substitute for eggs. And I would avoid cellulose gum and modified cellulose. I said some recipes use tapioca instead. If you want commercial egg substitute, that leaves calcium lactate and calcium carbonate. That last one is calcite, a mineral and one ingredient in Mars soil. We just have to isolate it to be food grade pure. Calcium lactate is made from a chemical reaction of lactic acid and calcium carbonate.

Lactic acid can be made a few ways. One is fermentation of a bacterium of the lactic acid group, the most common is Lactobacillus. That one is used to ferment milk to make yogurt. The bacterium can convert any sugar to lactic acid. But be sure it doesn't get out, that's what makes milk go sour.

RobertDyck · 2015-12-09 16:19:37

Not sure where to post this, so I'll post it here.
YouTube video: When Fake 'Super Meat' Is Better Than the Real Thing
Products: Beyond Meat

To quote the video:

more protein than beef, it has more iron than steak, more omegas than salmon, more calcium than milk, more antioxidants than blueberries

Ingredients:

Water, Pea Protein Isolate, Oil Blend (Canola Oil, Flaxseed Oil, PalmOil*, Sunflower Oil, DHA Algal Oil), Methylcellulose, Carrageenan, Potassium Bicarbonate, Caramel Color†, Yeast Extract, Maltodextrin, Potassium Chloride, Tapioca Starch, Sorbitol, Calcium Chloride, Natural Flavoring, Spices, Salt, Vegetable Extract Mix (Spinach, Broccoli, Carrot, Tomato, Beet, Shiitake Mushroom), L-Cysteine Hydrochloride, BeetJuice Powder (Flavor and Color), Natural Hickory Smoke Concentrate, Calcium Sulfate, Onion Powder, Onion Extract, Mesquite Powder, Sugar‡, Pomegranate Seed Powder, Ferric Phosphate (Iron), Paprika Extract (Spice and Color), Garlic Extract, Cyanocobalamin (Vitamin B12)
All ingredients from Non-GMO sources
* Certified Sustainable † Ammonium and Sulfite Free ‡ Vegan Cane Juice

SpaceNut · 2015-12-09 22:14:14

Looks like food from the ingredients after you remove all the chemical combinations.....

That reminds me that we do have a protein topic but that is from animals and fish but here is a way to do that with ...ya vegies....

here are a few more such links....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soy_burger
The patty of a veggie burger may be made from vegetables (like corn), textured vegetable protein (like soy), legumes (beans), tofu, nuts, mushrooms, or grains or seeds, like wheat and flax.

http://www.nomeatathlete.com/veggie-burger-recipe/ made from beans

http://www.cookinglight.com/eating-smar … ean-burger

burgers-0605p35b-m.jpg?itok=AF8f97Uf

Void · 2015-12-10 01:04:49

Those presentations certainly are a good sell.

louis · 2015-12-10 08:27:22

Of course there is nothing to stop us making artificial lab meat on Mars. These products are now commercially available at about $11 a burger. The meat is grown from stem cells.

RobertDyck · 2015-12-16 23:45:36

Again, I don't know where to put this. House plants that filter air.
The Best Air-Purifying Houseplants According To NASA

All the plants listed that filter ammonia are toxic to cats. Why? :'(

ASPCA list of plants toxic to pets

SpaceNut · 2015-12-17 20:04:09

Nice information but if we are in need of such indoors plants then why are we not doing so on the ISS were we would learn lots more about the long term effects of such chemical hazards. One that the astronauts have been around is ammonia which is used in the cooling loops. Are there any of the others onboard?
Of course Mars would be different but we could be still using many of these still unless we plan them out of possibility.....

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