Artificial Magnetosphere - Electromagnetic Induction

RobertDyck · 2014-08-17 22:20:40

Van Allen belts as a breeder reactor? I doubt that would work.

But Van Allen belts are not narrow. Trapped plasma is in a band wider than the planet. That's good because it protects the entire planet without any need to "dance around". But that requires a planetary magnetic field. Solar wind trapped by the magnetic field forms Van Allen belts, so it's self-forming once the magnetic field exists. Or are you talking about a system of magnetic satellites?

knightdepaix · 2014-09-10 18:45:35

knightdepaix wrote:

I know that the following is a very wild idea.
Is it feasible to create multiple planetary rings above mars that composed of regolith and "dancing around" the planet near or in artificially thickened atmosphere of CO2 and perfluorinated carbons(PFC)? My ideas are instead of BLOCKING solar wind radiation with artificial magnetosphere and thickening the Martian atmosphere, why not exploiting solar wind's chemical composition to make nitrogen for terraforming use and heat up the planet.

Imagine the artificial planetary rings of Mars like gimbals of a gyroscope.

Schematic lists of items:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gyros … ration.gif
Gimbals of a imaginary gyroscope: "gimbal" artificial planetary rings comprising Martian, Phobos, Deimos (essentially locally sourced) regolith.
Sphere carved out in space by the rotor at the centre of the gyroscope: planet Mars
Chemical compounds including perfluorinated carbons in the artificially thickened Martian atmopshere, naturally occurring atmosphere of CO2 and whatsnot fill the space between the rotor and the rings.
Gimbals occupy at different distances from the rotor; one "gimbal" ring is not necessary orthogonal at a given time to another gimbal ring: the artificial planetary rings occupy at different heights in the Martian atmosphere.

So Mars still maintain its rotation and orbit as the "gimbal" rings spin around the planet to adsorb chemical component of charged particles of solar wind. Heat or particles not adsorbed dissipated shall be handled by the atmosphere. For traveling onto and out of the planet, spaceship could travel in curved paths through the gaps of the rings while charged particles of solar wind plasmas can only go straight.

Even though the regolith adsorbed or reacted with regular doses of charged particles and hence regular mining maintenance of the gimbal rings is necessary in many years (I think), Mars may not need a magnetosphere to block solar wind. Those mined regolith is added value to Martian economy as it can be processed for nuclear power or metal recovery.

How can engineers put enough regolith onto rotational orbit of Mars ?

Last edited by knightdepaix (2014-09-25 02:40:06)

Tom Kalbfus · 2014-09-13 07:15:36

I think blocking the Solar Wind doesn't make Mars any more habitable, the amount of effort is considerable in making a ring around Mars, despite all the satellites we've launched, we don't even have a ring around Earth! In the end, you still cannot breathe the atmosphere on Mars, even if you do establish a ring around it! I think if you built the atmosphere up, you don't hae to worry about atmosphere loss for quite a long time, if you live for millions of years, it might be a concern, but a ring is just an after thought after the planet is terraformed, its not like we couldn't replenish the atmosphere. Also a ring around Mars would block some of the sunlight and cool the planet. Mars does spin on an axis, during winters and summers, parts of Mars would be under the rings shadow. A ring might be more useful for Venus, that planet needs the shading!

Void · 2014-09-18 10:36:09

I would not rule rings out. Shading the equator at times might cause moisture to deposite there as Ice/snow, to later melt. However the value of that would depend on how you built up the atompshere.

If you were to make rings, why not use them to capture energy from the solar wind. Don't have a machine for that but I bet it could be done.

Here is some additional information:

http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2 … rgy-source

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 … 091337.htm

Tom Kalbfus · 2014-09-19 07:51:38

There is no reason why the rings can't be solid, such as made or wires or cables instead of particles. If you can get a loop of wire around a planet, you can generate a magnetic field. Venus needs one of those. Also each ring at a different radius needs a different orbital plane to maximize the shade it produces. If we shade enough of Venus' equator it will receive as much sunlight as the Earth, it climatic zones will be different however. You know the sin of 30 degrees is one half. Thus if you blocked sunlight reaching Venus between 30 degrees north and 30 degrees south the light received at the surface of Venus at 30 degrees north or south is the same as received by Earth at the equator.

This is a map of Venus terraformed, now imagine this planet with 2 equators one at 60 degrees north and the other at 60 degrees south, the shaded area is between those two latitudes, the shading is not complete, some sunlight gets through, but the climate gets cooler as you approach the actual equator.

Last edited by Tom Kalbfus (2014-09-19 20:41:48)

SpaceNut · 2014-09-20 08:24:47

Planet or dwarf planet distance (AU) Solar radiation (W/m²)
Perihelion Aphelion maximum minimum
Mercury 0.3075 0.4667 14,446 6,272
Venus 0.7184 0.7282 2,647 2,576
Earth 0.9833 1.017 1,413 1,321
Mars 1.382 1.666 715 492
Jupiter 4.950 5.458 55.8 45.9
Saturn 9.048 10.12 16.7 13.4
Uranus 18.38 20.08 4.04 3.39
Neptune 29.77 30.44 1.54 1.47
Pluto 29.66 48.87 1.55 0.57

Tom Kalbfus · 2014-09-20 10:40:52

Venus almost gets twice the radiation as Earth, but if the sun's incident rays hit the planet's surface at an angle, there is less radiation per unit area At about 60 degrees North or South, Venus gets about the same as falling on the Earth's equator, discounting clouds and stuff. I think an artificial ring system. Saturn's ring system has 1 ring plane above its equator. Saturn's rings are made of ice particles, if we wanted a ring system over Venus, glass beads might be the stuff to use, we probably want stuff that reflects sunlight back into space rather than absorbing it and radiating infrared down to the planet. Venus has almost no axial tilt so an equatorial ring plane wouldn't do much good. The radius of Venus is 6,052 km. We need a ring system which casts a shadow 5241 km long. If you tilt the ring planet by 30 degrees and extend it outwards by 10,482 km, it will casts a shadow out to 60 degrees north and south. Combine that with a belt that is 6,100 km wide above the equator, and you need 5 more ring planets each with ascending nodes separated by 60 degrees from the last. the rings would probably have to orbit at different altitudes so they don't collide. The rings would have to be spaced so they interleave, maybe cutting the solar rays by 1/6th towards 60 degrees, as one moved towards the equator, the amount of light blocked would increase as there are more ring particles between the planet's surface and the Sun. I think the glass beads might be good at letting some light through over the equator.

It appears Venus has a dust ring already but the dust ring is around the Sun and Venus travels through it:
http://www.scienceworldreport.com/artic … -venus.htm

Last edited by Tom Kalbfus (2014-09-20 10:46:33)

Void · 2014-09-20 19:47:02

I suggest that any mega structure put around Venus might as well gather energy. If so, it might as well use it for a purpose.

A gas powered refrigerator some how uses heat to cool. I have some idea of how it works.

I am not so much suggesting it's method, but observing that Venus on top of having a very thick atmosphere dominated by CO2 has insulating cloud decks, and also refuses to allow convection between it's upper and lower layers.

I suggest that power beams of some kind directed at the clouds might change their composition to more allow heat out.

I also suggest that power beams directed at specific locations might force the atmosphere to convect altering it's behaviors and perhaps sucking hot atmosphere to higher altitudes so that it would radiate it's heat to the universe. Also perhaps even sucking up dust from the surface to provide nutrients to any air borne photo active life added.

Shading other locations might aid the process to greater force convection.

The best locations for photo life on a terraformed Venus would be at altitude or high latitude.

If you could partially shade a mountain top at mid latitude, perhaps that might be the first place where you could have a plant grow.

If you were to be able to actually build a ring of connected materials, then a trick would be to have a multitude of mirrors on bearing pivots, so to be able to deflect light to a location of choice on a planet. In the case of Venus to fry the clouds at certain points, and/or to induce convection. In the case of Mars, perhaps to warm the poles, and cool the equator. The objective would be to humidify the entire surface to a more equal extent, perhaps creating a situation more favorable to life. The poles have water but not heat. The Equator has heat but not much water. So, even that out.

Last edited by Void (2014-09-22 09:47:35)

knightdepaix · 2014-09-24 19:04:53

Void wrote:

I would not rule rings out. Shading the equator at times might cause moisture to deposite there as Ice/snow, to later melt. However the value of that would depend on how you built up the atompshere. If you were to make rings, why not use them to capture energy from the solar wind. Don't have a machine for that but I bet it could be done.

My crucial viewpoint is to capture energy and chemical particles from solar wind instead of deflecting them with a magnetosphere. Mars has few chemical elements and energy to support life: especially nitrogen is needed to be imported; thickening the atmosphere with greenhouse gases are a way to keep energy from dissipating to the space of our solar system. Why not let nature/solar wind plasma work in bringing more energy, hydrogen, helium and heavier elements ?

However, the above is not to say artificial magnetosphere is not useful, but let us consider from different perspectives.

Questions:

1) Is the particles in the plasma reaching Mars energized enough to fuse with chemical elements, such as carbon fuses with protons to form nitrogen ?
2) can some different chemical combinations of the Martian atmospheric components help absorb or adsorb energy and particles, and as a potent greenhouse gas and not damaging a probable artificial ozone layer? For example only, can C3O2 carbon suboxide or CO2 reacts with protons of plasma to form water, methane and formaldehyde ?

Tom Kalbfus · 2014-09-24 19:30:43

Actually if you park a comet at the Venus-Sun L1 point, it will do two things, its coma will block some light from the Sun, and its tail would hit Venus and deliver a bunch of useful elements to it, an artificial magnetosphere would get in the way of this.

Void · 2014-09-25 05:53:21

I simply don't have the intellectual resources to do more then display foolishness on this topic.

I agree that it is matter, it is moving at a high speed, and it tends to be plasma which has stored energy, but beyond that I cannot create a method where I would understand that I could create eliments desired. I have at best vague ideas for a partial solution. Not much chances that I can contribute even to speculation.

Last edited by Void (2014-09-25 05:54:47)

Tom Kalbfus · 2014-09-25 18:17:58

Void wrote:

I simply don't have the intellectual resources to do more then display foolishness on this topic.
I agree that it is matter, it is moving at a high speed, and it tends to be plasma which has stored energy, but beyond that I cannot create a method where I would understand that I could create eliments desired. I have at best vague ideas for a partial solution. Not much chances that I can contribute even to speculation.

All I'm talking about is parking a comet or comets at Venus-Sun L1, that is the comet is between the Sun and Venus, its vast distended atmosphere provides the planet with shade, and its tail, where the solar wind pushes all those sublimated gases off its surface is headed towards Venus. Comets are made of all sorts of volatiles that are in short supply on Venus, hydrogen, water etc.. No transmutation of elements is required, the elements are simply transported from the comet to Venus by the Solar Wind and radiation pressure from the Sun. Notice that the tails of comets are always pointed away from the Sun and at the L1 point, away from the Sun is also towards Venus. Before a comet boils completely away, another comet is added and then another and another, this builds up the supply of water on Venus as the Comet's tail is pointed that way.

Last edited by Tom Kalbfus (2014-09-25 18:19:27)

RobertDyck · 2014-09-25 20:01:40

knightdepaix wrote:

My crucial viewpoint is to capture energy and chemical particles from solar wind instead of deflecting them with a magnetosphere.

How would you do that? You see, a magnetosphere actually does. It deflects solar wind away from direct contact with planetary atmosphere, but it's then captured in the magnetic tail. A little solar wind does get through, breaking water in the very tenuous upper atmosphere, and accelerating hydrogen ions to escape velocity. But since they're ions, most are captured by the tail of the magnetosphere. Flow is around the magneosphere in medium Earth orbit, round and past the planet, then a tear-drop shaped tail behind the planet. The centre of the tail has flow back toward the planet. The magnetosphere redirects the return flow to the poles. Ionized gas / plasma is actually accelerated to higher velocity by Earth's magnetic field, as it gets close. It then impacts the atmosphere creating aurora. The one in the north is called Aurora Borealis, or Northern Lights. That's the chemical particles from solar wind you talked about, entering the atmosphere. They impact so fast that they ionize the air. Ionized oxygen and nitrogen both glow their characteristic colours.

knightdepaix · 2014-09-25 20:04:25

Void wrote:

I simply don't have the intellectual resources to do more then display foolishness on this topic.

Though I had been noted as a seemingly useful addition to this forum, yet I simply lacks intellectual resources to contribute then display fuzziness on this topic. The following links come from previous discussions on this topic: in labor I try to trust.... regular participants of this forum.

Magnetizing Mars - Creation of a Martian Magnetosphere
http://www.newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=433
Mars Magnetic Fields Problem
http://www.newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=436
Mars's mag. field will maybe recover!
http://www.newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=5463
Again on the Magnetic atmosphere retention
http://www.newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=5604

knightdepaix · 2014-09-25 20:49:27

RobertDyck wrote:

accelerating hydrogen ions to escape velocity.

If this is true, will particles ripped by solar wind off the Martian atmosphere in the polar regions still escape to space ? Why not influxes of particles at the polar region bring heat to polar regions, and help global warming and terraforming all the same time ?

In labor one trusts....

RobertDyck · 2014-09-25 20:58:01

Mars does not have a planetary magnetic field right now. We would have to build one.

Yes, solar wind can enter the cusp at the poles, accelerating hydrogen to escape velocity. But walls of the cusp are where the magnetic field is strongest, so hydrogen won't get far before being trapped in the return flow.

Yes, returning hydrogen does provide heat. In fact, aurora are caused by air getting so hot it glows. You can see the sheets of Earths magnetic field. Returning hydrogen flows along those sheets, entering the atmosphere along those sheets. Where high speed hydrogen hits air, it heats air, causing it to glow. But don't expect that to help much. Earth's poles tilted away from the Sun causes far more cooling than heating from aurora. Heating is very localized to thin sheets of air.

SpaceNut · 2014-09-26 21:01:00

Where is the boundary for Mars?

Solar wind boundaries around Mars

The influence of a mini-magnetopause on the magnetic pileup boundary at Mars

Stationkeeping in Mars orbit

Mars is considerably less massive than Earth (it has about 11% of Earth's mass) but rotates at about the same angular rate, so a stationary orbit at Mars will be smaller than one at Earth. The Martian geostationary orbit altitude is only 13,634 kilometers (so an orbital radius of 20,428 kilometers, or about 3,000 kilometers inside the orbit of Deimos). Another way of looking at it: the Martian geostationary orbital radius is about 6 Mars radii (or an altitude of 5 Mars radii above the surface); the Earth geostationary orbital radius is very similar at about 6.6 Earth radii (or an altitude of 5.6 Earth radii above the surface).

http://www.space.dtu.dk/english/Researc … etic_field

Is it possible to induce an increase of plasma into the bow shock boundary to add more shielding to mars...

SpaceNut · 2015-01-31 20:32:11

Missing link in metal physics explains Earth's magnetic field

New findings from a team including Carnegie's Ronald Cohen and Peng Zhang shows that a missing piece of the traditional theory explaining why metals become less conductive when they are heated was needed to complete the puzzle that explains this field-generating process

This is not new as this is why a cd rom works as when the laser writes a spot of data its heat causes a currie effect that makes the polarity of the location nuetral and when a field is place next to it the polarity will flip and be retailed when cooled.I have known this since the 80'S

It has long been thought that heat flow drives what is called thermal convection--the hottest liquid becomes less dense and rises, as the cooler, more-dense liquid sinks--in Earth's liquid iron core and generates Earth's magnetic field. But recent calculations called this theory into question, launching new quests for its explanation.

All that means is a fluctuating field as the ore is heated and cooled. As the resistance gets greater when hot less current will flow so you will have less field strength. When the ore cools the resistance will get lower and more current will flow creating a larger field.

SpaceNut · 2015-02-23 20:01:26

Its about time: NASA will hold a media briefing at 1 p.m. EST Wednesday, Feb. 25, to discuss an upcoming mission :NASA Hosts Media Briefing on Mission to Study Dynamic Magnetic System Around Earth Called the Magnetospheric Multiscale (MMS) mission.

The MMS, a mission to study how magnetic fields release energy in a process known as magnetic reconnection. MMS consists of four identical observatories that will fly in a tight formation and provide the first three-dimensional view of magnetic reconnection.

SpaceNut · 2015-02-27 20:37:49

Liftoff is targeted for 10:44 p.m. EDT Thursday March 12 from Space Launch Complex 41 on Cape Canaveral Air Force Station, Florida.MMS ready for Launch on mission to study Earth's magnetic environment

This fundamental process occurs throughout the universe where magnetic fields connect and disconnect with an explosive release of energy.
"Magnetic reconnection is one of the most important drivers of space weather events," said Jeff Newmark, interim director of the Heliophysics Division at NASA Headquarters in Washington.
"Eruptive solar flares, coronal mass ejections, and geomagnetic storms all involve the release, through reconnection, of energy stored in magnetic fields. Space weather events can affect modern technological systems such as communications networks, GPS navigation, and electrical power grids."

SpaceNut · 2015-03-15 20:11:19

Recap story: Atlas 5 rocket launches NASA satellite quartet

An Atlas 5 rocket successfully launched four NASA satellites that will study disturbances in the Earth's magnetosphere. Tha ULA Atlas 5 421 lifted off on schedule at 10:44 pm EDT (0244 GMT Friday) carrying four Magnetospheric Multiscale (MMS) spacecraft.
The four spacecraft separated from the Centaur upper stage nearly two hours after liftoff. The MMS spacecraft will fly in formation to give scientists three-dimensional views of powerful magnetic reconnection events that can release large amounts of energy. MMS will begin science observations in September.

SpaceNut · 2015-07-26 17:01:12

As spacecraft re-enter the Earth's atmosphere at high speeds super-hot temperatures are produced through friction. Traditional heat shields use temperature-resistant ablative coatings that burn off on re-entry, or tough insulating materials, such as the tiles used on the space shuttle.

Superconductor magnet spacecraft heat shield being developed

European space agencies and an aerospace giant are developing a new re-entry heat shield that will use superconductor magnets to generate a magnetic field strong enough to deflect the superhot plasma formed during re-entry of returning spacecraft. If the new magnetic shielding is successful it could be more reliable and make the craft lighter and easier to re-use, since it would reduce or eliminate the need for other shielding materials.
They plan to test the new technology by attaching a test module to a missile and using a Russian submarine to fire it into space. The Volan and its magnetic heat shield would be launched into a suborbital trajectory from a Russian submarine at sea. The missile, a modified ballistic missile called Volna, would re-enter the Earth's atmospher at Mach 21 and come back to Earth in the Kamchatka peninsula, a remote region of the Russian Far East.
The idea is to use a superconducting coil at front of the craft to generate a strong magnetic field projecting beyond the front of the craft. The scientists are currently assessing the superconducting coil's performance, and have not yet finalized the technical details of exactly how they will fit it into a Russian "Volan" escape capsule for the test.

SpaceNut · 2015-11-08 19:51:33

Antius wrote:

SpaceNut wrote:
Is there a way to calculate how much gavity would need to change by in order to stop the lose rate due to the solar winds and then from that amount of gravity change we could then solve for the amount of mass to make that happen. If that mass is centered around the equator to concentrate the effect.
Lack of gravity isn't the problem. The catastrophic loss started when the planet lost its magnetic field. The (then) more extensive atmosphere was scoured by solar winds from the nascent sun. The present loss rate appears to be quite modest in comparison, but the damage is done.
This isn't to say that no terraforming could take place. There would appear to be substantial gas remaining. But we need to temper our expectations. A strictly Earth analogue environment is probably not achievable given the extent of past volatile losses. Transporting mass or volatiles from other solar system bodies would be a very expensive long term project and more than a little risky. In my opinion it just doesn't work economically. But who knows? In a thousand years immortal beings of infinite wealth might decide to make that very long term investment.

Gravity and electromagnetism are two of the four fundamental forces in physics.

Q & A: Gravity vs. Magnetism

gravity is a force between masses at rest but when you get them moving you now have (artifical Gravity) centripical and centrifugal forces as well.

Force = gravitational constant × mass of the earth (M) × mass (m) / (distance between masses (R))2
where the gravitational constant, G = 6.67 x 10-11 Nm2kg-2

Electromagnetism is a force between charges which are moving the greater the difference between the potentional the greater the attraction or repulsion depending on charge type.

There is also magnetism which is also the diference of potentials but they are needed to be moving as its force is simular to that of gravity in that the further you get from the material the weaker the force is.

Magnetism Vs. Gravity

Difference Between Gravity and Electromagnetism

Electrostatic forces may exist between charges which are at rest, and when charges move, they may create magnetic fields around themselves. Electromagnetism is about 1035 times stronger than gravity.

The Unified Theory – Electricity, Magnetism, Gravity and Mechanics

Void · 2015-11-09 10:40:02

I can see that exploring the manipulation of Magnetism is not a waste of time, and I sense that you were fishing for a better catch than me, but I will offer these links, in the hope that they might point a way.

http://www.fhshh.com/space-the-magnetic … ought.html

http://www.popularmechanics.com/space/d … rmia-life/

Scientists had long believed that asteroids and meteoroids could have emanated only brief magnetic fields that lasted just a few thousand years after their creation—when the asteroid's molten core is still sloshing around. But Bryson found that the space rocks had magnetic fields that lasted much, much longer. These longer-lasting magnetic fields had to have been created by an entirely different force, the team decided.

Bryson thinks it works like this: "When the temperature of the core lowers enough, it starts to solidify. Most of the stuff that makes up this core is metal (mostly iron and nickel,) but there are also a couple of really light elements mixed in. As the metal slowly solidifies around these light elements, the light elements transform into liquid, and push outwards from the core. And it's the convection that results from that liquid moving upward that creates the magnetic field."

Here, I have at least tried to contribute in a way that supports the idea of creating a magnetic field. However, I am going back to:
Index
» Terraformation
» The end of the line for Mars Terraforming?
and there I will make arguments about why a induced magnetic field is in my opinion probably a luxury which will be hard to afford until much later, and will do little to enhance the survival of humans for the first decades of settlement on Mars at least.

Last edited by Void (2015-11-09 10:44:23)

Void · 2015-11-09 11:23:41

I will also add this on the positive side:
http://news.sciencemag.org/physics/2015 … eakthrough

It is close to what I am thinking of. They propose to fortify the magnetic fields of their fusion reactors by running currents through the plasma it self.

So, I think the upper atmosphere of Mars being bombarded by the solar wind may have plasma like qualities, so could you run electric currents through that? Probably not from the ground, but perhaps from orbit.

Well, how do you power that? Solar panels, nuclear reactors, or Solar wind electric generation?

For solar wind electric generation, the problem is if you generate power from the solar wind, and yet you keep it away with the field, how can those two objectives be compatible? I a not saying it is impossible, but I would say that I am reaching beyond my abilities to even speculate on it at this time. However, my preference would be to harness the solar wind in order to deflect it.

Last edited by Void (2015-11-09 11:24:49)

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#51 2014-08-17 22:20:40

Re: Artificial Magnetosphere - Electromagnetic Induction

#52 2014-09-10 18:45:35

Re: Artificial Magnetosphere - Electromagnetic Induction

#53 2014-09-13 07:15:36

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#54 2014-09-18 10:36:09

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#55 2014-09-19 07:51:38

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#56 2014-09-20 08:24:47

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#57 2014-09-20 10:40:52

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#58 2014-09-20 19:47:02

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#59 2014-09-24 19:04:53

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#60 2014-09-24 19:30:43

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#61 2014-09-25 05:53:21

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#62 2014-09-25 18:17:58

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#63 2014-09-25 20:01:40

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#65 2014-09-25 20:49:27

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#66 2014-09-25 20:58:01

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#67 2014-09-26 21:01:00

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#68 2015-01-31 20:32:11

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#69 2015-02-23 20:01:26

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#70 2015-02-27 20:37:49

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#71 2015-03-15 20:11:19

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#72 2015-07-26 17:01:12

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#73 2015-11-08 19:51:33

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#74 2015-11-09 10:40:02

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