Magnetic shoes/boots: How come NASA doesn't use them?

Tom Kalbfus · 2015-01-29 19:56:01

Here is an idea from the 1950s that is rarely discussed. I remember a number of 1950s science fiction movies where the protagonists used magnetic boots. So does anyone know why NASA doesn't use them?

SpaceNut · 2015-01-29 20:00:32

Station is made of aluminum is the first problem for a magnetic boot....hope about geco suction cups or velcro...
to serve as a counter resistance....

JoshNH4H · 2015-01-29 21:05:50

Why would we need them? They don't reduce the physiologically harmful effects of microgravity, and constraining the astronauts to one surface would if anything reduce their mobility.

RobertDyck · 2015-01-29 21:37:09

Science fiction used them with spacesuits on the outside of a space station. So they could walk, without fear of floating off into space. And stand while using their hands for work. Instead ISS has handrails, and a foot restraint that can be attached to the end of a robot arm, or attached to a graple post for the station arm.

In case of floating into space, suits have "SAFER", a small rocket pack. It's a small, simplified version of MMU. Not much fuel, but enough to get you back to the station if you float off. All this is more practical for a station made of aluminum.

Suction cups require air pressure. Don't work outside in space. But "gecko" has been done, it's a strip of extremely fine fibres that are sticky due to Van der Waals force. There's already a commercial product called "Gecko pad". I wonder if it would work in vacuum? Does the commercial pad actually use Van der Waals force, or some sort of glue? DARPA demonstrated a man using two paddles with Van der Waals force to climb a wall.

Rxke · 2015-01-30 01:03:46

Also, I guess in reality astronauts don't mind floating around after getting used to it. in the 50's authors thought free fall would be very impractical to work i (it is, of course) but a hand/footrail here and there when you really need torque etc is probably much better than having magnets on your feet (imagine you float and every time you come close to the walls your feet go 'clunk' and there you are again, wriggling to get loose, and when you do the reaction to the wriggling forces you applied causes you to cannonball to the other side of the module. Clunk (rinse, repeat )

Last edited by Rxke (2015-01-30 01:04:25)

JCO · 2015-01-30 15:15:44

I think another factor in the lack of development of this type of boot is the scale of the station. There is not a great deal of surface to walk around on. Also the science fiction back then assumed that moving in zero G would be like walking. In truth standing vertical would tend to just put you further from what you will likely need to work on. I think the 'gecko' like pads would be best placed on the side of the glove away form the thumb, elbows, knees and toes. This would provide the ability to climb/swim around the station and provide a variety of ways to anchor your self to do work.

GW Johnson · 2015-01-31 15:57:42

The main thing about magnetic boots in sci fi was that everyone thought spaceships would have steel hulls. The V-2 was steel construction. The presumption was that humans in zero-gee would need to be anchored in some way to a surface to prevent disorientation. Both assumptions proved to be incorrect by the time we started shooting things into space "for real" in the 1950's.

What we have found is that for a person to exert forces effectively upon objects, we do need an anchor point. The first was the grate decks and oddball interlocking shoes on Skylab. Once shuttle flew, it became the footholds inside, and the shuttle's manipulator arm.

If we ever go back to spaceships of steel construction (such as a nuclear explosion drive vessel), magnetic boots might once again provide a solution, especially if the magnetism can be turned off and on, as in an electromagnet.

GW

Tom Kalbfus · 2015-01-31 21:09:44

One alternative is smart electromagnets. Lets say each shoe transmits a signal that the floor detects telling the floor how far up the shoe is, the shoe as steel plates in its sole. There are electromagnets in the floor, a computer then makes the calculation of how much of a magnetic field is required to accelerate the shoes at 9.81 meters per second towards the floor, as the shoes draw near the magnetic field is reduced to compensate for the increased strength of the field as you get closer. Of course you will need a separate magnetic field for each shoe. Walking will still not be the same as under gravity I'm afraid. Blood would rush to your head, every time you "fell" under the magnetic field towards the floor, as you would feel the "downward" acceleration towards the floor, which would not be the case under gravity.

GW Johnson · 2015-02-01 10:45:40

My own preference is for very simple solutions. They usually cost less, which makes them more probable. Footholds and strap-your-self-down points at strategic locations are pretty well-proven and easy-to-do.

Often I like to "think Russian". Example: back in the 1960's, NASA spent several million dollars making a ball point ink pen that could function in zero-gee and in vacuum. The Russians used pencils (and solved the sharpenings-containment problem instead, pretty much with a simple enclosed sharpener).

GW

JCO · 2015-02-01 12:05:16

GW Johnson wrote:

My own preference is for very simple solutions. They usually cost less, which makes them more probable. Footholds and strap-your-self-down points at strategic locations are pretty well-proven and easy-to-do.
Often I like to "think Russian". Example: back in the 1960's, NASA spent several million dollars making a ball point ink pen that could function in zero-gee and in vacuum. The Russians used pencils (and solved the sharpenings-containment problem instead, pretty much with a simple enclosed sharpener).
GW

That has always been the Russian strategy quick and simple. The first satellite was a radio beacon. The first animal in space burned up on reentry as intended. The problem with this way of doing things is you do not learn much doing this way. They ran into a hard wall of what they could do quick and simple and have really gone no further.

SpaceNut · 2015-02-01 12:35:34

Russia has the capability to keep up as shown by the Buran Shuttle but will quickly run out of cash in doing so.
So slow and steady they make small changes to what works....

Rxke · 2015-02-01 13:21:52

that ballpoint pen story is repeated always as an example, sadly (or happily, depends how you look at it) it is not true.

http://www.snopes.com/business/genius/spacepen.asp

Terraformer · 2015-02-01 16:06:16

Still, I'd like to develop a pencil that can be used in freefall, simply for any artists who decide to take a trip. Perhaps an ink consisting of graphite particles in suspension?

Tom Kalbfus · 2015-02-01 16:11:46

Terraformer wrote:

Still, I'd like to develop a pencil that can be used in freefall, simply for any artists who decide to take a trip. Perhaps an ink consisting of graphite particles in suspension?

Do you want pencil lead to get in your eye? that could easily happen in free fall. What happens when you sharpen your pencil? Doesn't all those wood shavings float around in the cabin. Some people might not like those getting in their face!

GW Johnson · 2015-02-01 17:15:46

Looks to me like the only things not true about the space pen story were (1) how much money, and (2) who actually spent it. Once there is such a pen, it is better than pencils simply because of broken leads floating about. Broken leads are very common using pencils.

However, as for pencil-sharpenings being contained or not, I personally have owned multiple hand pencil sharpeners that were enclosed. No graphite dust or wood shavings ever escaped unwanted. No moving parts, either.

Little tiny plastic boxes about 1 inch x 2 inch by 0.5 inch, with a conical hole for the pencil tip, and a razor blade in that hole. You do have to empty them now and then, but that can be done inside a plastic bag.

These things would have worked fine in zero gee and vacuum. Maybe they did, I never heard. Use the right plastic, and it'll work hot/cold, too. Although most writing is done inside the cabin, not out on an EVA.

GW

Tom Kalbfus · 2015-02-01 22:02:26

GW Johnson wrote:

Looks to me like the only things not true about the space pen story were (1) how much money, and (2) who actually spent it. Once there is such a pen, it is better than pencils simply because of broken leads floating about. Broken leads are very common using pencils.
However, as for pencil-sharpenings being contained or not, I personally have owned multiple hand pencil sharpeners that were enclosed. No graphite dust or wood shavings ever escaped unwanted. No moving parts, either.
Little tiny plastic boxes about 1 inch x 2 inch by 0.5 inch, with a conical hole for the pencil tip, and a razor blade in that hole. You do have to empty them now and then, but that can be done inside a plastic bag.
These things would have worked fine in zero gee and vacuum. Maybe they did, I never heard. Use the right plastic, and it'll work hot/cold, too. Although most writing is done inside the cabin, not out on an EVA.
GW

How about using an tablet computer? This is the 21st century you know pencils are obsolete.

Terraformer · 2015-02-02 11:14:34

Tom Kalbfus wrote:

Terraformer wrote:
Still, I'd like to develop a pencil that can be used in freefall, simply for any artists who decide to take a trip. Perhaps an ink consisting of graphite particles in suspension?
Do you want pencil lead to get in your eye? that could easily happen in free fall. What happens when you sharpen your pencil? Doesn't all those wood shavings float around in the cabin. Some people might not like those getting in their face!

Tom,

Wut. Did you even read my post before commenting?

GW Johnson · 2015-02-02 11:59:53

Sure, a tablet computer is (now) the modern, better answer. But back then? There were no pocket calculators, much less portable computers, in those days.

Today, your portable computer is the best answer for all sorts of tasks. Till the battery fails, for whatever reason. Then you need a backup. Depending upon what caused the failure, your backup ought to be a different technology or principle “just in case”.

I have a calculator or two around here that I use for running all sorts of numbers. But, if they fail, I kept my slide rule. I can run numbers no matter what. Doesn’t matter that your backup might be an obsolete technology. Who cares? What’s important is having that backup.

GW

Quaoar · 2015-02-02 13:18:01

GW Johnson wrote:

If we ever go back to spaceships of steel construction (such as a nuclear explosion drive vessel), magnetic boots might once again provide a solution, especially if the magnetism can be turned off and on, as in an electromagnet.
GW

The hull of an Orion-drive propelled spaceship was all made in steel?

GW Johnson · 2015-02-02 15:20:29

Hi Quaoar:

Yep, Orion-drive vessels would be made of steel, and closer to plate than sheet metal, too. Some of it would be heavy armor plate. At the time, they thought these things would be build in a shipyard, pretty much the way heavy naval war vessels are/were built.

GW

Quaoar · 2015-02-02 17:27:42

GW Johnson wrote:

Hi Quaoar:
Yep, Orion-drive vessels would be made of steel, and closer to plate than sheet metal, too. Some of it would be heavy armor plate. At the time, they thought these things would be build in a shipyard, pretty much the way heavy naval war vessels are/were built.
GW

In case of rebirth with modern material technology, which material would you use today?

RobertDyck · 2015-02-03 04:06:56

Mechanical pencil. No wood shavings, and no ink so works in zero-G. Narrow lead so always sharp without wasting graphite by sharpening.

Rxke · 2015-02-03 04:11:16

From experience I know the tip can easily scatter in very tiny fragments. (when you use a fine tip, that is. I prefer +very+ fine tips :-)

of course, it's all relative. I bet there are bigger contamination sources. And in zero g, a lot of debris ends up in the filers of the fans

RobertDyck · 2015-02-03 04:26:47

Through high school and university I used the black Pentel Sharp above, with .5mm lead. The steel sleeve at the tip kept the lead from breaking/shattering. However, when the lead was very short it would fall out. Had to click the end to extend a new lead into place. For me high school was late 1970s, university was early 1980s. This isn't new.

Rxke · 2015-02-03 05:42:47

fellow pentel user, they're fantastic! (.3 masochist)

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#1 2015-01-29 19:56:01

Magnetic shoes/boots: How come NASA doesn't use them?

#2 2015-01-29 20:00:32

Re: Magnetic shoes/boots: How come NASA doesn't use them?

#3 2015-01-29 21:05:50

Re: Magnetic shoes/boots: How come NASA doesn't use them?

#4 2015-01-29 21:37:09

Re: Magnetic shoes/boots: How come NASA doesn't use them?

#5 2015-01-30 01:03:46

Re: Magnetic shoes/boots: How come NASA doesn't use them?

#6 2015-01-30 15:15:44

Re: Magnetic shoes/boots: How come NASA doesn't use them?

#7 2015-01-31 15:57:42

Re: Magnetic shoes/boots: How come NASA doesn't use them?

#8 2015-01-31 21:09:44

Re: Magnetic shoes/boots: How come NASA doesn't use them?

#9 2015-02-01 10:45:40

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#10 2015-02-01 12:05:16

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#11 2015-02-01 12:35:34

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#12 2015-02-01 13:21:52

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#20 2015-02-02 15:20:29

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