Fracking Mars

JCO · 2015-01-23 15:18:44

This is a bit of a way out idea but I thought I would throw it out there. One of the bottle necks to the development of a colony on Mars is getting enough water and volatiles to support the colony. There is evidence from impact craters that there may be more than enough water but it may just be frozen underground. My idea is to use a processing similar to fracking to get at it. The key would not be so much to fracture the rock as to heat it. It might be possible to start the process simply by compressing the martian atmosphere and pumping it underground. Because of the limit on the actual amount of heat delivered by a gas it is likely this may only be used to prime the well and once the process is going a portion of the water drawn up would be heated and pumped back down. It is very likely the process would also bring up other valuable products like methane and other hydrocarbons.

So let me know how far of the reservation is this idea?

RobS · 2015-01-23 16:08:43

In a science fiction novel I wrote, I assumed they'd get their water that way. I suspect if you drill a well 100 meters deep anywhere on Mars, you'd hit water. The water went into the ground in the Noachian, never came out, and froze in place.

Void · 2015-01-23 17:22:25

And of course here is more evidence that that is likely:
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=7191

I personally think the evidence points to an early Mars that had an enormous amount of water, Nitrogen and CO2.

It lost a bunch of at least the Water, and got colder, and then the remaining water froze and got covered with volcanic and wind sediments. Then what was exposed to the surface was either freeze dried or was so cold that ice could persist on the surface.

And this leads me to wonder how much C02 was incorporated as dissolved gasses like carbonated soda, and might be pinned in those ice bodies? And far much likely, some form of Nitrogen? Ammonia does not last long, and I don't know how it would form. The CO2 is far more likely.

If organisms were creating Ammonia as an antifreeze down deep, that might explain the Nitrogen loss to some degree, but yes that has no evidence. It's very wild speculation.

Last edited by Void (2015-01-23 17:29:52)

JoshNH4H · 2015-01-23 17:47:41

The bigger mystery to me is where the Nitrogen went, more than the water. Gases can't go down, after all, and it seems somewhat unlikely that it was all lost.

Anyway, like oil extraction, the optimal method for water extraction is very dependent upon the form of the water. If it's in the liquid state underground, drill and pump. If it's in a liquid state but held as interstitial water in rocks, use hydrofracking. If it's frozen underground, mine and melt.

JCO · 2015-01-23 19:08:14

I like the sounds of that first link, 3.5 km of permafrost. It would make mining a bitch but it would make getting water a non-issue.
I found an interesting link that talks about where to find the nitrogen. http://space.stackexchange.com/question … t-nitrogen
It seem once refining begins they will have all the nitrogen they need. Some type of solar furnace should do the trick.

Last edited by JCO (2015-01-23 19:09:43)

Void · 2015-01-23 23:27:52

I really like the information started by Quaoar in "
Index
» Human missions
» Evidence of buried glacier in Valles Marineris
".

Nice stuff, and to a degree appropriate to the topic "Human Missions". After all we would want to pinpoint the location of best advantage, and the articles, give some guidance to that. However the rift valley is perhaps harder to get into with a spacecraft. However the articles suggest that other similar ice bodies should have formed at the same time at other locations at similar latitudes. Those may be for instance more accessible, and perhaps closer to other objects of desire, such as lava tubes, or in my case the desire to find and exploit sandstone.

The ~.5 to ~1.8 mile thick ice proposed to exist in the rift valley in most places is exciting. However satisfying other needs is important, and I am sure a settlement does not need an ice reservoir of that huge magnitude. Perhaps something more humble, and easier to get to can be found.

But use Nitrogen is to be found. From what I have read, the percentage in the atmosphere is not great for vascular plants. But there are solutions to that inside of enclosures.

But for life support or other issues we really should relocate to the appropriate section.

Last edited by Void (2015-01-23 23:30:15)

JCO · 2015-01-24 10:39:14

I think what I get from this is that my idea is basically sound. Water will likely not be as difficult as has been suggested for a colony. It appears most places on Mars you will be able to drill a well, apply heat and pull up enough water to sustain a colony.

Location is definitely an entirely different issue and I think I will take it up in a different thread.

Impaler · 2015-01-24 13:51:53

The OP is on a better track when he mentions injecting heat, but this is not the same as Fracking. Fracking just means fracturing with injected fluid and this is ulikely to be effective in producing water on Mars, either the water is frozen and it won't flow or it's not an you can just pump it without any new fractures. Thermal injection usually with steam is used in Tar-Sands and Heavy oil, obviously injecting steam to get out water would be redundant, so hot compressed CO2 looks to be the best bet, in the oil industry this is called 'TEOR' 'Thermal Enhanced Oil Recovery'. CO2 is already commonly used in place of steam so this looks to be available technology should it be necessary. The need to characterize the sub-surface ice will be key to knowing if this is necessary or viable.

The main energy cost is in heating the injected fluid, as we would need to compress the CO2 as well that will heat it substantially. I'd think you could use a solar tube type collector to pre-heat the atmosphere to modest temperatures then rapidly compress and immediately inject the gas, that would offer a high efficiency as the pre-heat is effectively concentrated by the later compression.

JCO · 2015-01-24 17:12:38

I realized after making the post that I was referring to the wrong process. On the plus side it made for a much more interesting title.

One thing has occurred to me is that you would need to locate the well a safe distance away from the colony as if you continued the process eventually a sink hole would be created.

tahanson43206 · 2024-09-22 10:16:16

This topic has been around since 2015....

JCO admitted in post #9 that the title was for a process that might not be best suited for Mars as it is currently understood, but no one changed the title so we have a place for this item from Wikipedia:

How much pressure is used in fracking?
Chemical additives are typically 0.5% of the total fluid volume. Fracturing equipment operates over a range of pressures and injection rates, and can reach up to 100 megapascals (15,000 psi) and 265 litres per second (9.4 cu ft/s; 133 US bbl/min).
Fracking - Wikipedia
Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Fracking
Search for: How much press

I am interested in this number because it reveals the pressure that ordinary well pipe can withstand.

Per Google, 15000 psi is >> 1034.2135939767 bar

(th)

RobertDyck · 2024-09-22 13:27:03

Europe sent an orbiter to Mars called Mars Express. It entered Mars orbit in 2003. One instrument is ground penetrating radar using synthetic aperture and long wavelength radar. They found the south pole of Mars is water ice covered in a thin skiff of wind-blown dirt. The ice is 3.7 km deep, extends to 60° latitude, and is as clean as ice of a glacier. European scientists calculated that if the ice of the south pole were melted, it would cover the planet 11 metres deep. But of course it wouldn't cover the planet evenly, mountains would remain dry while low areas would fill deeper. So the claim that "all" water on Mars escaped into space is wrong. There's enough ice on Mars to terraform. The south polar ice cap also has a large deposit of dry ice embedded within the water ice. The north polar ice cap is a lot smaller, but isn't covered in dirt. The north pole is covered in dry ice during northern winter, then the dry ice sublimates in spring revealing the water ice. Mars Pheonix was sent to see if the dirt surrounding the north polar ice cap has any buried ice. The shovel wasn't able to dig because it immediately hit ice. Well, that's what they were looking for! Between both poles, buried ice, craters filled with ice, glaciers in the sides of canyons, and permafrost, there's enough water on Mars to terraform. Enough water to fill the ancient ocean basin in the northern hemisphere. Perhaps not to the same depth, some water did escape into space, but enough to cover the floor of the ocean basin.

Fracking? Well, I have suggested elsewhere on this forum a slightly different procedure. Find a large ice deposit somewhere (see above), and use a hose to spray steam. Use the steam to dig a cave in the ice. Cover the cave opening you just made so steam doesn't escape. It doesn't have to be pressurized. At Mars ambient atmosphere clean water will remain liquid between 0°C and 6° to 10°C, depending on pressure. Melt ice, allow a pool of water to form, suck up that water with a hose. If there's salt in the ice, it will remain liquid over a slightly greater temperature range: freezing temperature is dropped, and boiling is raised. A large body like a lake or sea will freeze out differentially. That means clean ice will form without salt, until so much salt is in the remaining water that it freezes as ice with salt. You could seek out salt free ice, but that makes harvesting more tricky because liquid temperature is a narrower range. If you harvest salt water, then it has to be desalinated. Reverse osmosis desalination requires high pressure to force water through the membrane. That requires power for the pump.

My favourite location (recommended by others on this forum) is the frozen pack ice. That's at 4° latitude north of the equator. Or 5°, depending where you measure. It's a big frozen lake: 800km x 900km, average 45 metre depth. You wouldn't build on the ice itself, rather build on the shore, build on land. With an ice deposit that close, you won't run out of water.

GW Johnson · 2024-09-23 09:53:58

Water's triple point is listed as 6.1173 mbar (.0060373 atm) at 0.01 C. Any pressure lower than that, and ice sublimes. Lowering the temperature of the ice slows its sublimation rate. Any pressure higher than that, and you can have liquid melt present. Raising the temperature requires more pressure for stability.

The Viking average pressure was just about 6-7 mbar. There are low places with higher pressures, perhaps over 8 mbar. But any of the highlands would be under 6 mbar.

GW

RobertDyck · 2024-09-23 10:30:05

Mars Spirit rover landed in Elysium Planetia, in the dried ocean basin. The frozen pack ice is also in Elysium Planetia, so a reasonable close pressure reading. Curiosity rover landed in a delta that emptied into the dried ocean basin. Notice pressure is above the triple point all the time. Again, this is low altitude so relatively high pressure. Top of Olympus Mons has 1 mbar pressure.

Mars Curiosity Rover, sols 9.5 through 13:
4501_PIA16080_gomez2-full2.jpg?w=2048&format=webp
Engineering Toolbox has an online calculator for boiling temperature of water in partial vacuum. At 6.9 mbar (690 Pa) it boils at 2.2°C (36°F), at 7.8 mbar it boils at 3.7°C (38.6°F).

Mars Curiosity Rover, sols 31 and 93:

At 700 Pa water boils @ 2.4°C (36.3°F), at 800 Pa water boils @ 4°C (39.2°F), at 860 Pa water boils at 4.9°C (40.8°F).

All this show ridiculously narrow temperature range for liquid water.

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#1 2015-01-23 15:18:44

Fracking Mars

#2 2015-01-23 16:08:43

Re: Fracking Mars

#3 2015-01-23 17:22:25

Re: Fracking Mars

#4 2015-01-23 17:47:41

Re: Fracking Mars

#5 2015-01-23 19:08:14

Re: Fracking Mars

#6 2015-01-23 23:27:52

Re: Fracking Mars

#7 2015-01-24 10:39:14

Re: Fracking Mars

#8 2015-01-24 13:51:53

Re: Fracking Mars

#9 2015-01-24 17:12:38

Re: Fracking Mars

#10 2024-09-22 10:16:16

Re: Fracking Mars

#11 2024-09-22 13:27:03

Re: Fracking Mars

#12 2024-09-23 09:53:58

Re: Fracking Mars

#13 2024-09-23 10:30:05

Re: Fracking Mars

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