Mission to Venus

Impaler · 2014-12-31 23:38:32

The Bigelow inflatable has a VERY thick skin designed for full human habitat protection in LEO. It is over built to be a lifting structure on Venus and would need to be enormous the have the surface/volume ratio to be buoyant. As an alternative or addition to a rigid Venus habitat it has some potential but generally sausage-shape and lack of coupling points along its length would nix the clustering concept I described earlier.

Lightning is not a major problem, planes are stuck by lightning all the time, you just conduct it around the vehicle and down a dangling wire.

Hurricane force winds are again not a problem because their is nothing solid to collide with (which is what damages stuff on the ground), all you have if buffeting and turbulence and you obviously buckle your seat-belt for that. This is why we fly research aircraft through Hurricane eye-walls all the time.

I'm continuing to do the math on how much force the blip would receive when moored to the surface by a line.

Using Drag force equation F = 1/2 * Fluid Density * Velocity^2 * Coefficient-of-Drag * Area

Area of proposed HAVOC blimp is 900 m^2, relative air speed would be 100 m^2 on average (ranging across 70-130), Coefficient-of-Drag for streamlined body is listed on Wikipedia as 0.04. At 55 km Venus atmosphere is 0.92 kg/m^3. That comes out to 331 kN, a considerable force equivalent to the weight of 30 tons. Add in the drag force on the cable itself and were looking at a lot on tension on the mooring line.

To keep the system in a safe margin I'd estimate the cable needs to be equal mass to the weight equivalent force it is carrying. So were looking at a 30 tons of cable, maybe 60 to accommodate the higher end wind speeds and less then ideal drag numbers. Thus the decent cage is much stronger then is needed for the decent cage which can be increased in mass if needed, 10 tons would not be unreasonable. But the whole lift capacity of the blimp has been consumed, so operationally we need two HAVOC blimps, one as described in the NASA presentation with crew accommodations and return rocket and a second one with the cable spool and decent cage. The two would rendezvous and the crewed blimp would be moored directly to the rear of the decent blimp (sausage-link like) to create one slipstream ideally having only as much drag as one blimp, then 2 crew would transfer to the decent blimps gondola and enter into the cage and conduct the decent, possibly with a 3rd crew member remaining in the blimp/s to monitor their flight and the ground operations. Operationally it is much like an Apollo Command Module/LEM, each vehicle specialized for it's function and crew transfer to the 'lander' which here has the unique capability of doing the landing while still attached to the Command Module, which gives it the nice benefit of being reused. The blimps can probably just keep flying around stuck togeterh like this the whole mission duration as it safer to make a permanent connection and the combined vehicles speed will be greater.

Last edited by Impaler (2015-01-01 00:21:02)

Tom Kalbfus · 2015-01-01 08:51:05

I think if you want to tether something to the surface, you would want a wing, and not a balloon, the force of the wind would keep the object at 55 km, a balloon would have too much surface area, assuming the cable holds. I wonder if a diamond or nanotube cable would hold under that intense heat? I do know that high temperatures do tend to weaken most materials. On the positive note, this is much shorter than a space elevator.

SpaceNut · 2015-01-01 13:21:47

The way I was looking at the Bigelow inflateable was that of how a submarine is constructed in that the people tank where the crew resides in is the inflateable while the hull is the blimp portion of the craft that acts as the piece that withstands the conditions of the environment....
That said the bigelow unit could be made to fit the application by cutting back on the shell layers....

Impaler · 2015-01-01 23:44:40

A wing would be heavier then air and need to be continually powered, but Venus night is up to 50 hours long, we can only just barely make a solar powered plane here on Earth that will stay aloft for a 12 hour night on battery power. Their would be no performance margin left to hold any kind of cargo like the cable or let alone the return capsule to Earth. I discussed this earlier when wings were suggested.

The material Zylon mentioned earlier has the necessary heat resistance up to 780 C, almost then double the surface temperature of Venus of 460 C. It will lose some strength at that temperature though according to this materials property sheet http://www.nuui.com/Sections/Technology … hnical.pdf and this might require the lowest part of the cable to be steel. Zylon is already the material of choice for many space applications and many high performance cable applications here on Earth like Americas cup yacht rigging. Noting futuristic is needed here cause the length is <100 km.

Void · 2015-01-02 06:47:08

Here is an interesting associated activity proposal.

http://www.space.com/28132-nasa-airship-challenge.html

I think airships could be an interesting development for Earth, Venus, and perhaps even a partially terraformed Mars (Increased atmosphere inflation presumed). Outer planets would come much, much later, maybe. But it seems like it would be a useful technology to observe in development.

Several potential associated processes could unfold from it.

Tom Kalbfus · 2015-01-02 07:47:32

Impaler wrote:

A wing would be heavier then air and need to be continually powered,

it is powered by the wind, a cable anchors it to the ground and prevents the wing from getting blown by the wind, as it is held in place against the wind, it flows aroind the wing creating aerodynamic lift. This is the way a kite works, except in the case of Venus at the 55 km altitude the flow of wind is constant and never stops, so the wing never falls to the ground so long as the cable is not cut, or the anchor does not lose its grip.

Impaler wrote:

but Venus night is up to 50 hours long, we can only just barely make a solar powered plane here on Earth that will stay aloft for a 12 hour night on battery power. Their would be no performance margin left to hold any kind of cargo like the cable or let alone the return capsule to Earth. I discussed this earlier when wings were suggested.

The thing about wings is they don't need to be lighter than air, and they have less surface area compared with balloons for resisting airflow, also balloons go where ever the wind takes them, they can bump into each other and spin around due to differential air currents.

Impaler wrote:

The material Zylon mentioned earlier has the necessary heat resistance up to 780 C, almost then double the surface temperature of Venus of 460 C. It will lose some strength at that temperature though according to this materials property sheet http://www.nuui.com/Sections/Technology … hnical.pdf and this might require the lowest part of the cable to be steel. Zylon is already the material of choice for many space applications and many high performance cable applications here on Earth like Americas cup yacht rigging. Noting futuristic is needed here cause the length is <100 km.

I didn't say balloons wouldn't be useful, but for holding a fixed position over the surface of the planet, wings are superior, and they don't need to be powered if they are kite-ed to the ground with a cable.

To give an Earthly example, you can go waterskiing on a river against the rivers current if the water flows rapidly enough, you can tie two ropes to trees on the banks and hold your position.

Tom Kalbfus · 2015-01-02 07:52:17

A Saturn Balloon would need to be heated, and wings would not be a long term option here, unless you had a very reliable fusion reactor which can run on the atmosphere. There is no reason why you couldn't built very large fusion powered airplanes the size of cities however, they never land.

Terraformer · 2015-01-02 08:17:49

However, a Uranus or Neptune balloon would be able to use unheated hydrogen. One could build quite large floating islands on such worlds, eventually even converting them into supramundane planets offering, oh, 30 times the surface area of Terra. The atmosphere is your source of power, and CHON elements, but you'll have to import a lot. Still, you can grow it incrementally. It may well turn out to be the cheapest property in the solar system.

Void · 2015-01-02 10:02:52

Well I did not have it in mind during my post, but don't forget Titan. For instance an airship habitat that stays in daylight all the time, with a solar concentrating mirror built into it, and a greenhouse poised at the concentration point. Dealing with sufficient air pressure above the clouds? I don't know the facts on that.

Last edited by Void (2015-01-02 10:06:02)

Tom Kalbfus · 2015-01-02 15:22:41

Terraformer wrote:

However, a Uranus or Neptune balloon would be able to use unheated hydrogen. One could build quite large floating islands on such worlds, eventually even converting them into supramundane planets offering, oh, 30 times the surface area of Terra. The atmosphere is your source of power, and CHON elements, but you'll have to import a lot. Still, you can grow it incrementally. It may well turn out to be the cheapest property in the solar system.

Baloon is easier, and why wouldn't you want to heat it, even without the consideration of a hot air balloon, Uranus and Neptune are very cold planets, for simple life support you would need heating, probably a smaller breathable bubble within a larger heated hydrogen bubble.

SpaceNut · 2015-01-02 16:59:08

Lets try to keep topics on track, if possible. Thanks

Anchoring Big Kites

Kite Line

Three main forces control kite flight: lift, gravity, and drag. A kite flies because the lifting force of the wind overcomes both the downward pull of gravity and air resistance to the forward motion of the kite called drag. When tethered and fixed in a position to gain lift from the wind, a kite maintains a perpetual stall—a poor aerodynamic design for an airplane but essential for a kite flying at a stable and positive angle with respect to the horizon.

Of course they forgot the 4th which is the mass of the string and tail to be overcome by the lift but of course that was with flat kites....I also saw that inflateable kites are also possible...

I like the space elavator idea of using the tether string to use as a means for robotic climbers to descend towards the planet over time going farther and deeper into the atmospher to sample and test....

The Oberth Effect

Last edited by SpaceNut (2015-01-02 22:01:31)

SpaceNut · 2015-01-02 21:45:44

The concept oon the first post is High Altitude Venus Operational Concept (HAVOC) but before we can even think of that we need to start at the beginning of the mission as well.

The one hitch to floating around Venus, would of course be, figuring out how to get both humans and an HAVOC to the planet, and then for getting the humans back home safely to Earth at some point.

Lets see if it is possible to flesh out the means to make a venus mission possible with the SLS super 130T to orbit. My gut says that we will need 2 units at least to provide launch of the venus blimp and one for the Orion return vehicle.

First up is Delta-v budget

nice umage tree of The red vines represent one way free delta vee rides via aerobraking. Delta vee distances are in kilometers/second

The Earth-Venus synodic period is very close to 1.6 years, almost exactly twice the period of the Hohmann orbit. The Venus Capture Orbits have a 300 kilometer periapsis and a 600,000 kilometer apoapsis.
High Venus Orbit is a circular orbit at 68,000 kilometer altitude.

A blimp orbiting at 50 kilometers will need a delta vee of 2 kilometer/second to overcome the atmospheric drag/gravity penalty for ascending through Venus' atmosphere back to orbit.

The initial plans call for a several missions, building up to the final, with space ships first carrying unmanned vehicles to test the concept of an HAVOC, followed by missions where humans would orbit the planet in space.

This is best done with robotic missions, if any missions need to be done at all.

Next, scientists would have to come up with a feasible design for deploying a floating vehicle able to unfurl, fill itself with gas, and hover for long stretches of time in the sky above the planet.

If using a tethered drop from orbit of 300 kilometer periapsis for the blimp thou it would work it would seem not practicle. So maybe a blimp in a can used to descend to the 50k altitude.

After that, vehicles would have to be designed to work with such a craft, to serve as a ferry between the HAVOC and an orbiting craft, to travel back and forth to Earth, and perhaps between a craft that orbits Earth and the surface.

Which brings me back to can a bigelow blimp with rockets be sent back to rendevous with the orbiting craft.

Tom Kalbfus · 2015-01-03 23:06:55

SpaceNut wrote:

Lets try to keep topics on track, if possible. Thanks
Anchoring Big Kites
Kite Line
Three main forces control kite flight: lift, gravity, and drag. A kite flies because the lifting force of the wind overcomes both the downward pull of gravity and air resistance to the forward motion of the kite called drag. When tethered and fixed in a position to gain lift from the wind, a kite maintains a perpetual stall—a poor aerodynamic design for an airplane but essential for a kite flying at a stable and positive angle with respect to the horizon.
Of course they forgot the 4th which is the mass of the string and tail to be overcome by the lift but of course that was with flat kites....I also saw that inflateable kites are also possible...
I like the space elavator idea of using the tether string to use as a means for robotic climbers to descend towards the planet over time going farther and deeper into the atmospher to sample and test....
The Oberth Effect

A kite can anchor itself to a particular spot over Venus, and mine the surface for further building materials, which are end transported up the cable to make additional kite habitats for humans to live in. I think a flying wing shape would be best, with an airplane hanger and landing strip in the rear where it can be sheltered from the wind, and if someone wants to go outside and walk on the wing, the wind shadow is the best place for that as well.

Impaler · 2015-01-06 14:52:28

A kite tethered to the surface would have trouble getting initially moored to the surface after atmospheric entry. Without the lift of the strong relative wind speed upon it the kite would fall rapidly through the atmosphere, this is why I think any initial entry into the atmosphere has to be buoyant and THEN try to moor to the surface.

Maybe some kind of vehicle which is a blimp initially upon entry and then as it is dropping the cable (which will generate drag and slow it relative to the ground and increase the relative wind speed at the ship), it dose some kind of transformation to become more kite like and less of a blimp, such as deploy air-foils and deflate the balloon (by compressing the gas into a tank).

The other major trouble with anything that becomes moored to the surface in this way is that every other bit of Venus free-floating infrastructure is zipping by it at high speed and any kind of logistical transfer is very difficult and dangerous, at the very least it will require helicopter like ships to overcome the relative wind speeds, but even then the helicopter is doing a dangerous snatch and grab to get back to it's blimp before it is blown down range too far.

If a moored vessel is capable of un-mooring itself and matching speed with the other vessels then this all becomes easy to do and what ever the normal transfer between vessels as zero relative speed can be used and this can be as simple as a line passing between blimps with cargo/people winched across. Because of the huge mass and weight of any line that will moor a vessel to the surface I do not believe it is at all practical to have every airship capable of doing it, only a small number of specialized vessels would be capable of mooring, and even then they would do it for limited spans of time.

Tom Kalbfus · 2015-01-06 20:28:10

However it needs comsats to stay in contact with its probes on the ground!

I think it will be easier at first to colonize Low Venus Orbit. Use the atmosphere as a decelerator into orbit, save some rocket fuel in getting there, take advantage of the closer proximity of the Sun for energy. I think small chunks of asteroids may be slowed by by grazing Venus' atmosphere, and we can use the material to build colonies in orbit. Venus can act as a collecting point for asteroidal material, and the cost will be less than mining the moon. and if an asteroid grazes too deep, you only lose the asteroid and mess up Venus a bit, but as we know Venus is already messed up, so there is no risk. Low Venus orbit offers 50% protection from radiation, if a solar Flare happens, for instance, a space station can fire its rockets and spend a disproportionate time in the shadow of Venus, the further out it is, the longer it stays there. Also Venus protects low orbiting spaceships from 50% of all cosmic rays, since Venus will block half of them!

Void · 2015-01-07 08:34:20

http://news.discovery.com/space/the-met … 130610.htm

After Magellan arrived in the orbit of Earth’s twisted sister in the 1990s, it took some more detailed measurements. Everything pointed towards some form of chemical deposition occurring on the higher ground.
As we now understand it, the snow on Venus’ surface is probably more similar to frost. On the lower Venusian plains, temperatures reach a searing 480°C (894°F). This is hot enough that reflective pyrite minerals on the planet’s surface are vaporized, entering the atmosphere as a kind of metallic mist, leaving only the dark volcanic rocks like basalt in the Venusian lowlands.
At higher altitudes, this mist condenses, forming shiny, metallic frost on the tops of the mountains. And Earth’s simmering sibling has plenty of high altitude terrain. Maxwell Montes, the tallest peak on Venus, stands at an altitude of 11 kilometers (6.8 miles) — 3 kilometers (1.8 miles) higher than Mount Everest.
Whether snow genuinely falls on Venus is still unknown, but it’s certainly possible. Sulfuric acid rains have been observed plentifully on Venus as virga — rain which evaporates before it hits the ground, just like over the rainforests on Earth.
NEWS: While Venus Simmered, Fast-Cooling Earth Thrived
The heavy metal snows can be observed anywhere on the surface of Venus over about 2.6 kilometers (1.6 miles). It may not be any coincidence that below this altitude Venus’s atmosphere is technically no longer a gas.
Over 96 percent of the Venusian atmosphere is carbon dioxide, and our sister planet has nearly 100 times as much atmospheric gas as Earth does. This is what causes the huge crushing pressure at Venus’s surface, but that pressure also has a rather strange effect on the gas.
At the pressures and temperatures found near the surface of Venus, carbon dioxide becomes a “supercritical fluid” — an unusual state of matter, partway between a liquid and a gas. Often used on Earth as an industrial solvent, this supercritical carbon dioxide is expected to be found on Venus, coincidentally, at altitudes below around 2 – 3 kilometers (1.2 – 1.8 miles).
While we’re a long way from taming Earth’s evil twin, meaning that it’s unlikely human eyes will see the surface of Venus directly anytime soon, one thing’s very likely. Both the lead sulfide and bismuth sulfide which make up Venusian snow are a light greyish color with a shiny, metallic lustre.
Which means the the mountaintops on Venus are probably beautiful, glinting in the sunlight that filters through the dense clouds. Who knows? Maybe in a few hundred years, the Venusian mountaintops might even be a tourist attraction.

So, the way I see it is there are two surface environments, the lowlands which are corrosive to metals from the supercritical CO2, and the highlands that are apparently not corrosive in that manner.
Also, I see that the atmosphere is most corrosive where it is wetted by actual Sulfuric Acid mist. I also recall that the lower layers of clouds contain the most H20.

So I am thinking a method to consider robots for the surface, and for "Floats" just below the mist layers of Sulfuric Acid. I myself would try to build on RoboSimian.
http://www-robotics.jpl.nasa.gov/tasks/ … aID=700043
https://www.google.com/search?q=robosim … QsAQ&dpr=1

robosimian.jpg?itok=qx4q3w6E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HFXO_qx5ZY

Having looked at your proposals, what makes sense to me, is to have a RoboSimian linked to a human mind, and to use it to operate primarily in the regions above the supercritical atmosphere, and below the Sulfuric Acid condensate. Really hoping to find protection from corrosion by being in atmosphere that is to hot for Sulfuric Acid to continue to exist, but is also low enough pressure that the atmosphere is not supercritical.

So operative in the "Troposphere", above the frost line (Above the Supercritical Atmosphere).

I am thinking I also want windmills in the highlands.

So RoboSimians, Windmills, powerlines, Tethers, and Blimps that float in pressures higher than 10 bars. (Probably filled with Nitrogen).

All of these will have to have methods to tolerate the hot thermal environment.

A "Float" which is far enough below the mist to avoid virga induced corrosion, could be tethered to a highland point (Mountaintop?). Power would come from windmills, mostly on the ground, but if you imagine an Air Craft Carrier floating in 10-20 bars of mostly CO2, tethered to the ground, that also could have it's own windmills on it.

The Air Craft Carrier could allow for several additional things. It could be the anchor for a Tether and airship that goes above it into the Sulfuric Acid clouds. That would be used to extract Sulfuric Acid and water from the clouds, and by some means bring it to the Air Craft Carrier. Also, humans could visit the Air Craft Carrier, They would have to breath a special mix (Helium/Oxygen?), and of course they would need very strong protection from the environment at the Air Craft Carrier. It will make more sense if you do have Robosimians, that can operate on the ground, that those would pilot flying airships that go to the Aircraft Carrier and above the Clouds, but the Air Craft Carriers would allow temporary human visits for very crazy humans.

Rocket Ships:

The frost in the highlands is thought to be composed of Lead, Bismuth, and Sulfur. I expect however that there will be other metals in lesser quantities. Extraction and refining would be a desire.

Building and maintaining rocket ships on the aircraft carrier another desire. So, if you had such ships, and they could land in the highlands, then next step might be to use an airship to lift them back to the Air Craft Carrier using an airship.
At the aircraft carrier, maintenance and refueling would occur prior to relaunch. So, likely that "Air Craft Platform" would either be a mountaintop, or if possible an "Air Craft Carrier" floating considerably higher up.

Launch from the "Platform" would involve a blimp to tow the rocket up to a favorable atmospheric density situation at a higher altitude, and the firing the rockets, and going to orbit. It could be noted that if humans wanted a ride to orbit they could hitch a ride, once the rocket had been towed to a higher altitude.

In orbit, I have read that Sulfur is a good metal in a vacuum. So although Lead and Bismuth might have limited uses, Sulfur might be the metal of choice in orbit for much structure that can be in a vacuum.

Two other things can be mentioned now.
1) Floating cities could also exist above the clouds, for humans to live in.
2) If you had extensive wind power in the highlands, and "Aircraft Carriers" just below the clouds, which would be able to snorkel the Sulfuric Acid downward, then it should be possible to decompose much of the Sulfuric Acid at a rate higher than it is being created by nature. The result would be water and SO3? Heat at the Aircraft Carrier would decompose the Sulfuric Acid. A secondary method where the SO3 is converted to SO2 might help.

And we have spoken of Ozone creation and preservation, which would reduce the rate that Sulfuric Acid is created. Further, if you have then converted most Sulfuric Acid into H2O, and have floating gardens higher up, then the H2O could be containerized into those floating greenhouses. and by doing that isolate the water from the SO2, an so reduce the production of Sulfuric Acid.

Volcano's would likely still dump Sulfuric Acid and water into the atmosphere, but that could be handled.

So, you would have a choices 1) Have a mix of Sulfuric Acid and water (Hopefully with much more water than now) in clouds or 2) Containerize most of the water vapor into greenhouses. or a combination of 1 & 2 as desired.

Void · 2015-01-07 11:24:15

So, I am thinking that maybe a space plane. No wheels, just skids, if the "snow" is slippery. With such atmospheric density, I would think the landing speed could be very low.

It could not have enduring parts that could not take the heat. If emptied of fuel, and cargo (To deliver to the surface), it should be at it's lightest, and the an airship to lift it to the "AirCraft Carier", where it might get some maintenance, and fueling. A oxidizer will be a problem. If the fuel was a hot hydrocarbon, then Oxygen I guess, but that will be a problem. If the fuel were Magnesium based, then perhaps Water and/or CO2.
Maybe Sulfuric Acid?

I suppose if you needed Oxygen, perhaps the space plane would be fueled, and then lifted to a higher altitude, where another craft would tank it with Oxygen. At that point at the same time, a cylinder containing humans and their life support could be added as well?

Of course you would want that cylinder to be able to detach, and float if needed, (Such as after re-entry), providing time for the humans/cylinder to be recovered.

Now that I think about it, when the space plane was landing, it would have to pressure equalize with atmospheric gasses, and so would not float.

However, if a airship went down and hooked to it, that airship could then displace the gasses inside the space plane with Nitrogen, and some flotation effect would occur, helping the blimp to lift it to the aircraft carrier.

Of course it would have to vent Nitrogen as it was lifted to a higher altitude.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Part of the notion here is that the Surface of Venus is a supercritical oven, and apparently a condenser in another part.

So, adding comets, and asteroids, may modify what it is baking. Adding water could raise the temperatures. Adding metals might provide desired materials.

Of course the trick is to get some of that material to where it is wanted. To atmospheric greenhouse/habitats seems relatively practical. To get it into orbit, may ask the question "Why not mine it in orbit". However, Musk of SpaceX seems to indicate that the biggest cost of spaceflight is using the hardware once.

Maybe there could be an economic model for refining materials in the oven of Venus and lifting them to orbit, I just don't know. (Maybe future technologies).

I might wonder if compressed steam, and Magnesium might be a way. Of course your tank would be heavy for the steam, but being on the AirCraft Carrier, it would be hot. Of course the tank would have to contain the pressure after it was lifted to a launch altitude. Heavy tank would be the penalty. I guess it would be a Hybrid rocket. I said Magnesium, but that might just be some part of the Solid Rocket component.

In addition to the compressed hot steam, perhaps this Hybrid might also have atmospheric intakes, to take in CO2, and if traveling through the clouds, to also take in Sulfuric Acid? Hot steam would be the Oxidizer after the atmosphere petered out, and you were pushing to orbit. So not just Hybrid as in Liquid and Solid Fuel/Oxidizer, but Hybrid as in Jet/Rocket.

Last edited by Void (2015-01-07 11:55:09)

Void · 2015-01-07 14:41:45

It seems that Bismuth has usage in Rocket Oxidizer, and perhaps fuels. It also has very strong hall effects for what that is worth.

Being heavy, perhaps it might be possible to create an ion drive that expels it, but really I have no sure ideas.

I did see a vague reference to an alloy of Bismuth, Aluminum, and Magnesium.

I have been wondering if a alloy which would be liquid on the surface of Venus, or at the 15 bar level where it is still very hot, could be a rocket fuel? If so, it would be a liquid rocket fuel, and would carry energy from having already been phase transitioned to a liquid, and would also carry energy by being hot. If the environment of Venus is not quite hot enough, then maybe the tank could be heated a bit more. A combination of very reactive metals, and heavy metals might be good, with CO2 Jet oxidation and Hot steam oxidation.

I am thinking that Sulfur having a low melting point put into metal alloys might lower the melting point, and the Sulfur having some fuel potential itself.

239.4°F (115.2°C)

Sulfur, Melting point

Magnesium/Aluminum/Bismuth also?

Last edited by Void (2015-01-07 15:06:57)

Void · 2015-01-08 06:51:50

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oet63vzBvkg

So someone thinks that rovers could operate on the surface of Venus. I presume they would be nuclear powered like Curiosity. I wonder what kind of computers and motors they think could be built to operate at those heat levels.

I am glad that they must be thinking about it.

The video is a bit old, but Venus is still there.

Last edited by Void (2015-01-08 06:53:17)

Tom Kalbfus · 2015-01-09 01:27:57

Probably look for high temperature semiconductor chips, probably the brains would be at a cooler altitude, while communicating with the rover with simple relays. That prove looked huge! with all those drop probes in it. I bet if we had the same budget as a manned mission to Mars, we could do something like that on Venus.

Void · 2015-01-09 06:52:28

Yes, I kind of liked their notions.

I am beginning to think we can consider harmonizing with existing conditions, on Venus, and perhaps Mars(At first). Actually, that is probably a necessary requirement.

It has also occurred to me that with floatation properties in the troposphere of Venus, it is not inconceivable to build a "Bean stock" to go from the ground all the way up to the condensate in the lower cloud belt where the Sulfuric Acid is buffered by some water.

So then if you could collect it, the water and Sulfuric Acid mix, and move it down to a level where the Sulfuric Acid would decompose, then you might end up with water at a high temperature, but still liquid, and that could be allowed to fall all the way down tubes to the ground. (I don't think liquid water is lighter than the 90 bar CO2 dominant hot atmospheric gas mixture on Venus). And then so hydro-electric power.

Water then being insulated in tanks (Vented through turbines as necessary/desired) more electric power. Then perhaps for vehicles steam engines. Fill their tanks with liquid water, and then they would power by turbines as heat leaking in heated the tanked water.

Then also with water boil power, flying robots.

Problems as always are the corrosive nature of the environment, heat (But it's starting to look like heat has it's advantages), pressure (Not necessarily too much of a problem), and wind.

Although I might want windmills, at 90 bars, even a small wind could nock over a skyscraper. That would have to be studied, and solutions found if possible.

Void · 2015-01-09 06:56:06

I am beginning to think that we have need to stop looking at the objects in the solar system as glasses half empty (Or more empty than that).
I think humans should;
1) Preserve the Earth (Not make it impossible to live on, or useless to humans).
2) Be content that Mars might be able to be like Earth to degrees, but will always need special maintenance to do so, and that will cost in efforts, but might yield benefits.
3) Venus is a giant oven.
One part of the surface supercritical CO2,
The highlands not, rather being where dissolved materials condense.
The tail of Venus suggests that Venus is an excellent place to put habitats in orbit. If they can keep inflated from volatile materials captured from the tail, then that problem is solved at that location. Also the solar energy situation is good at Venus.
Some Silicate/Metals materials could come from Venus itself, small asteroids captured, our Moon, and maybe Mercury.
There is a location in the atmosphere where the conditions are the most like the surface of the Earth that can be found in the solar system.
And it may be possible to capture Hydroelectric and Steam power from the clouds and other conditions down in the Troposphere.
What's not to like?

And then there maybe be Ceres, which could become a "Shell/Ocean" world.

I don't think we want more Earths, we want worlds that span conditions that one edge are Earth like (Just barely), and on the other edge are offering new possibilities to the human race. We seem to have quite a few already identified in our solar system.

Last edited by Void (2015-01-09 07:34:38)

Tom Kalbfus · 2015-01-09 10:08:33

Ever consider Venus L2 as a place to colonize?

L2 distances and velocity
Secondary Distance 1,014,208.85 km
Primary Distance 109,214,208.85 km
Velocity with respect to Primary 35.35 km/s

Distance of Venus to Primary 108,200,000.00 km

Diameter of Sun 1,392,684 km
Diameter of Venus 12,104 km

Angular size of Sun from Venus 0.74 degrees
Angular size of Sun from Venus L2 0.73 degrees
Angular size of Venus from L2 0.69 degrees
Solar irradiance 168.93 W/m^2 at L2 in Venus' shadow
The Solar Irradience of Venus is 2660 W/m^2 by comparison. this is a great place to store volitiles, it is a great shelter against solar flares as well, Venus has no magnetic field, the disk of Venus will block the most of a solar flare since it blocks most of the other radiation from the Sun, it might make a great place to put a space station.

As you may know the orbit at L1 or L2 is in a Halo orbit away from the L2 point, if we orbit the space station in a circle at the right radius from the L2 point we can arrange to get the exact same irradiance from the Sun as the Earth gets with the Venus disk blocking just enough of the Sun's disk to make this so. Should a Solar flare occur, the station should shorten the radius of its halo orbit to get the most of Venus in between the Sun and the space station. How does this sound?

Lets keep in mind, Venus rotates very slowly, and the L2 distance is 1,014,208.85 km, this comes to about 3 light seconds each way, I think it would be a much better place to control a Venus rover than from Earth, and Astronauts based in this station would be fairly safe from Solar storms, they just move further into Venus' shadow should one occur, and the shielding of the station itself should take care of the rest. You get to use the second largest terrestrial planet in the Solar System as a radiation shield, nothing can beat that!

L2 would make for an easy First target for colonization. To send astronauts to Venus L2, you go into a transfer orbit that grazes Venus' atmosphere to save propellent, this puts it in a elliptical orbit who's high point is at Venus L2, once there the crew module fires its rockets to slow down into a Venus L2 halo orbit arranging to block just enough of the Sun, so that the space station gets just as much sunlight as it would from Low Earth orbit, plenty to supply its solar panels continuously. Rocket fuel tanks for the trip home can be stored close to the center towards the L2 point 168.93 watts per square meter is, less than a third of what Mars gets and three times the irradiance per unit area that Jupiter gets What kind of rocket fuel might best be stored in tanks, probably Methane and liquid oxygen, still would need radiator fins and active cooling perhaps. hydrogen is best stored as part of a compound to minimize leakage.

Last edited by Tom Kalbfus (2015-01-09 10:41:39)

Void · 2015-01-09 11:39:20

What you have stated seems rather good.

As I have been looking at it from bottom to top for locations on Venus, you have;
-Lowland surface where Supercritical CO2 dissolving processes may naturally occur, and might actually be augmented artificially in chambers.
-Highlands, that may be favorable to the condensation of evaporates, and might be more machine friendly.
-A very hot troposphere, which non the less may avoid Supercritical CO2 erosion, and Sulfuric Acid Corrosion.
-Mist and Cloud layers mostly Sulfuric Acid, but with some water particularly lower down.
-Above that atmosphere that might support lighter than air craft and planes, and perhaps atmosphere breathing jets.
-A low orbit environment.
-Lagrangian points, of which you have reason to favor L2.

I would like now to suppose a structure that would resemble river grass. Flexible in the wind, anchored to the highland surface, reaching into the mist and cloud layers. Flattening out there.

In the part in the cloud layers greenhouses enclosing gardens. Liquid (Sulfuric Acid/Water) condensing on the outside where it runs into drains. An internal drainage piping system that allows gravitational flow downward, downward through the stock.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/boili … d_926.html

It seems that at the base of the mist/clouds is a pressure of about 10 bars + and perhaps about (00PS! )Correction ~175 deg? That's not hot enough to decompose the Sulfuric acid but a little further down would be. Above 300 degC is needed, and it must then be a vapor, so perhaps at those temps, if part was vented through a special turbine, it might leave behind a liquid of more H20? Don't know.

Surface temp of Venus + 870 °F (+ 465°C)

Rough guess is that the temp is about 276.85 degC at the base 10 bar level, so entering a bit lower into the troposphere might be a location where a decomposition of Sulfuric Acid could occur.

So ideally, using some type of decomposer process, and ending up with water the rest of the way down (If possible).

Collecting hydroelectric energy all the way down, thermal insulation on the pipelines to keep the pressurized water liquid at a maximum allowable.

Collecting the water in insulated tanks on the surface, but venting steam to cool them as they will heat up even with insulation. The venting process however could also generate electricity.

At various point in altitude of the Troposphere it should be possible to fill tanks on flying robots with water. So, robots could use steam filled reservoirs for lift, and also have steam driven propellers, or wings.

Humans further up could be connected to the perceptual parts of the robots, to experience what they experience. Also humans could direct them in building and maintaining such devices.

Quite a challenge, even if possible in the imagination. However if one of them was possible, why not many? and if many, then perhaps the destruction rate for Sulfuric Acid would exceed the production rate, and that would make the clouds and mist much less acid, and might even allow "Open Air" agriculture up in the clouds on the upper flatter parts of the "Blades of Grass". However, I would not want to try to change the atmosphere from CO2 dominant to O2/N2 dominant.

So, why not have it all including low Venus orbit and L2. All of it together with the Earth and Mars would make quite an expansion of our civilization.

Last edited by Void (2015-01-09 14:37:26)

Tom Kalbfus · 2015-01-10 01:27:02

Easier to return astronauts from a space station than deep in the atmosphere. One reason to send humans is that robots don't last long on the surface of Venus, and we can't afford to wait 16 minutes between every action a robot takes and the results. The operators of the robots will be racing against time to get as much accomplished with the robots before they cease to function, that is why that movie showed an orbiter with a whole magazine of entry probes, planes rovers etc, because these won't last, the planes will eventually crash, and the rovers will eventually succumb to the elements, which is mostly high temperatures. You need real time control of the probes or near real time control of it. Easier to do from space and get the astronauts back.

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#76 2014-12-31 23:38:32

Re: Mission to Venus

#77 2015-01-01 08:51:05

Re: Mission to Venus

#78 2015-01-01 13:21:47

Re: Mission to Venus

#79 2015-01-01 23:44:40

Re: Mission to Venus

#80 2015-01-02 06:47:08

Re: Mission to Venus

#81 2015-01-02 07:47:32

Re: Mission to Venus

#82 2015-01-02 07:52:17

Re: Mission to Venus

#83 2015-01-02 08:17:49

Re: Mission to Venus

#84 2015-01-02 10:02:52

Re: Mission to Venus

#85 2015-01-02 15:22:41

Re: Mission to Venus

#86 2015-01-02 16:59:08

Re: Mission to Venus

#87 2015-01-02 21:45:44

Re: Mission to Venus

#88 2015-01-03 23:06:55

Re: Mission to Venus

#89 2015-01-06 14:52:28

Re: Mission to Venus

#90 2015-01-06 20:28:10

Re: Mission to Venus

#91 2015-01-07 08:34:20

Re: Mission to Venus

#92 2015-01-07 11:24:15

Re: Mission to Venus

#93 2015-01-07 14:41:45

Re: Mission to Venus

#94 2015-01-08 06:51:50

Re: Mission to Venus

#95 2015-01-09 01:27:57

Re: Mission to Venus

#96 2015-01-09 06:52:28

Re: Mission to Venus

#97 2015-01-09 06:56:06

Re: Mission to Venus

#98 2015-01-09 10:08:33

Re: Mission to Venus

#99 2015-01-09 11:39:20

Re: Mission to Venus

#100 2015-01-10 01:27:02

Re: Mission to Venus

Board footer