Ukraine & Crimea

Terraformer · 2014-06-21 15:33:09

Then reconstruction happened...

Still, that has no bearing on the rightness of their cause. Who writes has little bearing on who's right.

Tom Kalbfus · 2014-06-21 18:58:15

Terraformer wrote:

Then reconstruction happened...
Still, that has no bearing on the rightness of their cause. Who writes has little bearing on who's right.

Since when is war preferable to peace. The President of Ukraine offered them peace and they chose to keep on fighting, I guess they didn't get enough land, could that be it? No one who thinks their winning ever wants peace, except perhaps George H. W. Bush during the Persian Gulf War. the Ruthless types in Russia don't care how many civilian lives are lost, lot of people who have no stake in the outcome of this war nevertheless are losing their lives because of the actions of these rebels, that I think is wrong!

RobertDyck · 2014-06-21 22:01:46

George H. W. Bush told general Norman Schwarzkopf to have a clear military objective before going in to Iraq. President Bush didn't want Iraq to become another Vietnam, dragging on year after year without end. Oh! It did! And Obama is talking about going back in yet again!

RobertDyck · 2014-06-21 22:23:44

Tom, once again I'm glad you aren't negotiating. For any peace to be possible, you can't tell the other side to surrender. Instead, convince them there's nothing to fight over. Surrender is only possible after military conquest. That would require years of fighting, and massive death. The loser would remain bitter for decades. I've mentioned the separatists in Quebec; they keep bringing up the Battle of the Plains of Abraham. That battle was 1759; Canada became a country in 1867. That battle was between the armies of Britain and France, an extension of the Seven Years' War into North America. That was before the American Declaration of Independence. Yet, the Separatists in Quebec are still bitter about that. You don't want a problem that drags on that long.

For Ukraine, they have to convince the people of east Ukraine that the government of west Ukraine is not the enemy. That they don't have to fight for their lives. The government does have to assert they are in control. And they have to ensure terrorists cannot control territory. Voters will kick out any government that cannot control bureaucracy, and certainly won't tolerate a government that can't defend them from terrorists. So the government has to regain control. Insurgents are acting as terrorists against anyone who opposes them in Luhansk or Donetsk. They have to be stopped. But the insurgents are using organized military tactics to defend territory, it's already civil war. And Russia is spreading propaganda that government forces are threatening the citizens. The government has to spread its own message, that they will protect citizens. One aspect is a propaganda war between Russia and Ukraine.

Russia has demanded that the Ukraine government declare a unilateral ceasefire. So they did. Now Russia is responding with major military exercises; preparing to invade.

Terraformer · 2014-06-22 02:09:47

Well, when forces loyal to Kyiv are shelling villages, you'll have a hard time convincing them to accept Kyiv's rule...

Tom, so I presume you consider the US War of Independence wrong then, since that involved a minority making decisions which dragged the rest into a war? How many innocent people lost their lives as a result of those "patriots"?

This is your brain on statism...

Now, how did the fighting begin again? The one in East Ukraine, I mean, not the one here?

Tom Kalbfus · 2014-06-22 06:09:44

RobertDyck wrote:

George H. W. Bush told general Norman Schwarzkopf to have a clear military objective before going in to Iraq. President Bush didn't want Iraq to become another Vietnam, dragging on year after year without end. Oh! It did! And Obama is talking about going back in yet again!

You should know better than to take his talk seriously, What Obama wants to do is talk while doing as little as possible, that is why he is sending the largely symbolic 300, it could do little more than protect the US embassy, and that at least would be better than another hostage crisis of the kind that occurred in Iran in 1979 Ironic symbolism I think, because in the Movie the 300 it was a Spartan army against the invading Persians, I guess Obama must have seen that movie and figured that is all we need to fight the Persians. (Iranians)

Tom Kalbfus · 2014-06-22 06:31:55

RobertDyck wrote:

Tom, once again I'm glad you aren't negotiating. For any peace to be possible, you can't tell the other side to surrender.

Well how did we negotiate with the Confederate South during our Civil War? It was the South's decision to rebel, without the Southern Rebellion, there would have been no civil war, the same could be said of East Ukraine and their rebellion, tell me how their sitation is different from the American South rebellion in 1861. If there is no rebellion there would be no civil war, and Kiev was simply saying if the Easterners put down their weapons and end the rebellion, it would let bygones be bygones for the sake of peace, but they wouldn't put down their weapons, instead they chose to continue the fight. So what's wrong with Kiev's offer? The Rebels get to return to their previous peaceful lives without any harassment from the government for their part in the rebellion, its not a bad deal actually. The South settled for that after being defeated by General Grant in the Battle of Appomattox.

RobertDyck wrote:

Instead, convince them there's nothing to fight over. Surrender is only possible after military conquest. That would require years of fighting, and massive death.

And what would Lincoln and the North have had to have given the South to get them to put down their weapons and end their rebellion. Tell me Robert, would you like to have a country to the south of your border where slavery was still legal?

RobertDyck wrote:

The loser would remain bitter for decades. I've mentioned the separatists in Quebec; they keep bringing up the Battle of the Plains of Abraham.

We had our own Abraham, do you think Abraham Lincoln did something wrong by fighting the South, should we have compromised with them instead and allowed them to keep their slaves? How do you feel about that?

RobertDyck wrote:

That battle was 1759; Canada became a country in 1867. That battle was between the armies of Britain and France, an extension of the Seven Years' War into North America. That was before the American Declaration of Independence. Yet, the Separatists in Quebec are still bitter about that. You don't want a problem that drags on that long.
For Ukraine, they have to convince the people of east Ukraine that the government of west Ukraine is not the enemy.

It was only Putin that told them otherwise, there was no problem until Putin decided it was time for a rebellion in Ukraine, and the East Ukrainians, being the perfect Putin Puppets that they were, started shooting their neighbors and taking over government buildings in violation of the law. They are lucky if they don't end up in jail, and I think Kiev could give them that for the sake of peace, and I think Crimea is as much as they should get. The Confederate South didn't even get one separate state.

RobertDyck wrote:

That they don't have to fight for their lives. The government does have to assert they are in control. And they have to ensure terrorists cannot control territory. Voters will kick out any government that cannot control bureaucracy, and certainly won't tolerate a government that can't defend them from terrorists. So the government has to regain control. Insurgents are acting as terrorists against anyone who opposes them in Luhansk or Donetsk. They have to be stopped. But the insurgents are using organized military tactics to defend territory, it's already civil war. And Russia is spreading propaganda that government forces are threatening the citizens. The government has to spread its own message, that they will protect citizens. One aspect is a propaganda war between Russia and Ukraine.

The Russian government is a most dishonest government for lying. Lying is a bad habit for the Russians, they do it too often.

RobertDyck wrote:

Russia has demanded that the Ukraine government declare a unilateral ceasefire. So they did. Now Russia is responding with major military exercises; preparing to invade.

Is it no surprise that Russia is also a major center of Computer hackers stealing identities, thievery is a respectable profession in Russia, and Putin is the biggest thief of all, the Bolsheviks were nothing but a bunch of bandits when you think about it, organized bandits that took over the government, redistributed private property towards themselves and calling it "Communism".

Last edited by Tom Kalbfus (2014-06-22 06:36:38)

RobertDyck · 2014-06-22 08:52:53

Tom, once again you are wrong. I have explained this before. The problem started when the Ukraine parliament introduced a bill to join NATO and EU. All Warsaw Pact countries other than the Soviet Union are now full members of NATO. And Baltic states are also full members. Putin drew a red line (Obama's term from Syria) when NATO tried to assimilate former members of the Soviet Union. Putin fought for Georgia, and is fighting for Ukraine. Putin has argued that the CIA was present in Ukraine, trying to assimilate them. He's probably right. That means the US is responsible for starting this. America tried to gain control over Crimea: Russia's only navy port that doesn't freeze in winter. Putin took dramatic action to protect that, to ensure that stay's Russian.

As long as you make it "us vs them", as long as it's "east vs west", then this conflict will not end. Ukraine will never re-join the Soviet Union. But Putin won't let east Ukraine join NATO. The solution is for neither NATO nor Russia to win. Neither. It isn't about sphere's of influence. It has to be about the people of Ukraine. And Ukraine has to be neutral.

Tom, since you glorfy the Civil War, here are some statistics. According to Wikipedia, American deaths in war:
American Revolutionary War: 25,000 (total US dead)
Civil War: 750,000 (soldiers and civilians, Union and Confederate)
World War 1: 116,516
World War 2: 405,399
Korean War: 36,516
Vietnam War: 58,209
War on Terror: 6,717 (Iraq and Afghanistan, 2001-present)

When you look at the population at the time, the Civil War deaths were 1.988% of the population, while World War 2 deaths were 0.307% of the US population.

The Civil War was the most horrific war of America's past. We do not wish that on Ukraine.

Tom Kalbfus · 2014-06-22 11:13:59

On the other had Robert, what is the price of a life time of slavery? Would you be willing to tolerate slavery as the price for not having an American Civil War? That is what the United States did from 1776 to 1861 about 85 years, the American Civil War could have been fought immediately after the American Revolution, with predictable consequences if you divide the 13 states into North and South and with the British Empire looking to get its colonies back. Americans preferred not to fight this Civil War just then and waited 85 years to fight it. Also the South didn't have to fight, they could have just said, "Okay, were giving up our slaves," they ended up giving up their slaves anyway after a long Civil War. Just giving up their slaves without a civil war to keep them would have cost the South less I think.

I also think life would be pointless if it is not free, if someone is born a slave and has to live his whole life as a slave, what is the point of living, that to me is not a life? Anyway, I'm 46 years old, I might have another 2 to 4 decades to live, something is going to get me whether it is a war or something else. Old age will kill you if nothing else, avoiding wars doesn't make one live forever!

Freedom is also free to have your own country without some other country dictating what your country can do, such as telling it not to join NATO. The only reason NATO exists is because of Russia's/Soviet Union's past foreign policy. If Russia really wanted to get rid of NATO, it would act nice and not supply the reason for NATO's existence. A right to self-defense is a natural right, and Russia has no right to prevent another country from joining any military alliance that it likes, whatever it tries with brute force a bullying will only generate more hatred for the country in the long run. Question: When someone bullies you during School recess when you were a child, did you give bully what he wants or did you put up a fight. Usually I put up a fight, I wouldn't just stand their and act as a punching back or give them my lunch money, between nations its much the same. If Russia wants something from Ukraine, let them send in the troops and lose some of them in trying to force Ukraine to give into their demands. Ukraine didn't make Russia into a bully, only Russia did that! Doesn't matter if the bully has nuclear weapons, it can either end the world or settle for less. A nuclear war means that naval base would probably be destroyed anyway, the gas pipes would be destroyed so the fighting would end up doing nothing but kill millions of people with no gain for Russia. If Russia wants to eradicate the entire population of Ukraine for some blasted land, it can do that, it can have a land of human corpses and bleached bones and stage a victory parade over that if they want!

As long as you make it "us vs them", as long as it's "east vs west", then this conflict will not end. Ukraine will never re-join the Soviet Union. But Putin won't let east Ukraine join NATO. The solution is for neither NATO nor Russia to win. Neither. It isn't about sphere's of influence. It has to be about the people of Ukraine. And Ukraine has to be neutral.

What you don't seem to understand is that we're not making it "us vs them" they are, by acting as an aggressor and a bully! It is not us that are misbehaving, it is them, they need to change their behavior, if you give them what they want, then they have no reason not to use brute force in the future to get what they want. I saw a article suggesting that Ukraine sell Russia its oil pipeline or else Russia will keep blowing it up anyway. My point is, let Russia keep blowing it up, they may deny Europe the gas through this sabotage, but at least they won't get any profits from this either! I want Russia to suffer from this war, so long as they wage it, no bloodless victories for them. Some Russian soldiers will come home in body bags and other not at all, until the Russian populace agrees that this war of conquest isn't worth the cost. The Ukrainians have to make the war costly to the Russians either in lives or by forcing the Russians to destroy that which they want to conquer. For the Russians its either a war to exterminate Ukrainians or no war at all. I think the land by itself without its infrastructure or its people isn't worth that much, certainly not worth the price in blood and treasure to acquire it. The Ukrainians have to convince the Russians that they will fight to the death and will not give in to threats! if the Russians believe they can't intimidate Ukraine into submission, I think they'll realize the gain is not worth the cost.

Last edited by Tom Kalbfus (2014-06-22 11:31:49)

RobertDyck · 2014-06-22 12:09:33

Tom: Stop trying to have the last word. You're wrong. Everyone here knows you're wrong. I'm surprised to read your age; I've begun to suspect you're a teenager.

Freedom would also mean the right to live without income tax. Freedom means the right to drive whatever speed you want on the highway. Freedom means your neighbours can't tell you how to keep your yard. Freedom means the government cannot draft you to fight in a foreign war. Freedom means you can smoke whatever plant you want, as long as you don't harm someone else. You don't have freedom in the US. You have limits, have to live with reality. Practical reality for an adult: do what it takes for the thugs to go away. For IRS: pay your taxes. For highway patrol: obey the speed limit. For police responding to complaints from neighbours: clean your yard. For Ukraine, that means they must be neutral.

Russia is engaging in major military exercises in the Urals. Russia had demanded the Ukraine government declare a unilateral ceasefire. They did. Russia then complained about that, and started these military exercises. The implication is if Russia doesn't win, they'll invade. The strong response is don't join Russia, don't let east Ukraine secede, don't join any military alliance with Russia, and don't join their economic union. However, adult practicality means don't join NATO either. The Ukraine ambassador to Canada has said being neutral isn't working, they want to join NATO. But if they do, Russia will invade. Ok, so they won't get that. They want to join NATO, but can't. Finlandize. What does affect average citizen lives directly is products in stores. That means join EU. Not EAU (Russia's version), but do join EU. Russia won't get everything they want, but they won't invade either.

Another other factor is average citizens are worried about their jobs. Major industry in Ukraine, mostly east Ukraine, makes military hardware for Russia. They want their jobs. Fine, so do that. Let east Ukraine manufacture and sell military hardware to Russia.

And Tom, don't respond. Just shut up.

Tom Kalbfus · 2014-06-22 13:42:11

RobertDyck wrote:

Tom: Stop trying to have the last word. You're wrong. Everyone here knows you're wrong. I'm surprised to read your age; I've begun to suspect you're a teenager.

A teenager would have more to lose in a potential war with Russia, I have already lived half my life, so I only have half as much to lose as would a teenager. I am willing to trust in Putin's sense of self-pressurvation, as he does not appear to be a religious fanatic, and if I'm wrong, I probably die, so what? I already lived 46 years, and I don't want my children to grow up in bondage.

RobertDyck wrote:

Freedom would also mean the right to live without income tax. Freedom means the right to drive whatever speed you want on the highway. Freedom means your neighbours can't tell you how to keep your yard. Freedom means the government cannot draft you to fight in a foreign war. Freedom means you can smoke whatever plant you want, as long as you don't harm someone else. You don't have freedom in the US. You have limits, have to live with reality. Practical reality for an adult: do what it takes for the thugs to go away. For IRS: pay your taxes. For highway patrol: obey the speed limit. For police responding to complaints from neighbours: clean your yard. For Ukraine, that means they must be neutral.

I guess you don't understand what motivates people to fight for freedom. If someone wants to take away your freedom and in exchange for your agreeing to lose your freedom, he'll let you live, what kind of bargain is that? I Ukraine's case you are talking about someone else giving up their freedom to Russia so you'll live a little longer, so that you won't die in a nuclear war. So what's in it for them, why should they give up their freedom so you can live? I don't see what they get in return? Putin tells them what to do, they have no control over their government, they are a satellite of Russia, that is not living. Let them die with dignity then rather than as unwilling servants and slaves!

RobertDyck wrote:

Russia is engaging in major military exercises in the Urals. Russia had demanded the Ukraine government declare a unilateral ceasefire. They did. Russia then complained about that, and started these military exercises. The implication is if Russia doesn't win, they'll invade. The strong response is don't join Russia, don't let east Ukraine secede, don't join any military alliance with Russia, and don't join their economic union. However, adult practicality means don't join NATO either. The Ukraine ambassador to Canada has said being neutral isn't working, they want to join NATO. But if they do, Russia will invade. Ok, so they won't get that. They want to join NATO, but can't. Finlandize. What does affect average citizen lives directly is products in stores. That means join EU. Not EAU (Russia's version), but do join EU. Russia won't get everything they want, but they won't invade either.

What if they don't join NATO until they get nuclear weapons and then they do? Atomic weapons are 70 years old after all, and Ukaine has at least one nuclear reactor Chernobyl. So if NATO wont allow it to join, and its up to NATO, then as a stop gap Ukraine can get nuclear weapons, just as Iran is getting them with Russia's help!

RobertDyck wrote:

Another other factor is average citizens are worried about their jobs. Major industry in Ukraine, mostly east Ukraine, makes military hardware for Russia. They want their jobs. Fine, so do that. Let east Ukraine manufacture and sell military hardware to Russia.

Selling the bullets that Russia will use to shoot them with. Oppression and tyranny hav long term consequences, just look at Iraq, I would say Saddam Hussein has destroyed that country with his oppression, he held it together with fear and terror, but remove that fear, as George Bush did, and the country falls apart. So one has to ask, is it worth keeping Iraq around if the only way to hold it together is with Saddam's methods of fear and intimidation? What Putin is trying to do I only a short term solution, it creates greater problems in the long run because imposed neutrality (the Finland kind) is not real. (The Swiss kind) Ukraine will act neutral in order to survive until they get the upper hand, they may try to work through nongovernment organizations to get their revenge on Russia, so watch out!

RobertDyck wrote:

And Tom, don't respond. Just shut up.

Saying your right doesn't make you right.

Terraformer · 2014-06-22 16:28:53

Tom Kalfbus wrote:

Saying you're right doesn't make you right.

Exactly, Tom, exactly.

Tom Kalbfus · 2014-06-22 18:17:10

Terraformer wrote:

Tom Kalbfus wrote:
Saying you're right doesn't make you right.
Exactly, Tom, exactly.

I believe in doing what's right regardless of the consequences, I don't think survival is everything, because eventually all of us don't survive, we'll all die of something. To go back to the example of the Civil War 750,000 Americans died in it, if there was no Civil War, they would all still be dead today!

idiom · 2014-06-29 23:30:34

Tom Kalbfus wrote:

Terraformer wrote:
Tom Kalbfus wrote:
Saying you're right doesn't make you right.
Exactly, Tom, exactly.
I believe in doing what's right regardless of the consequences, I don't think survival is everything, because eventually all of us don't survive, we'll all die of something. To go back to the example of the Civil War 750,000 Americans died in it, if there was no Civil War, they would all still be dead today!

Now there is a justification for a lot of things you probably don't mean to justify.

Tom Kalbfus · 2014-06-30 05:47:38

idiom wrote:

Tom Kalbfus wrote:
Terraformer wrote:
Exactly, Tom, exactly.
I believe in doing what's right regardless of the consequences, I don't think survival is everything, because eventually all of us don't survive, we'll all die of something. To go back to the example of the Civil War 750,000 Americans died in it, if there was no Civil War, they would all still be dead today!
Now there is a justification for a lot of things you probably don't mean to justify.

What I'm saying is that people do despicable things just to stay alive. One example would be to spy on their friends and relatives. There was the Berlin Wall, where Germans shot other Germans simply for crossing it, they obeyed their orders to shoot, and for what? So they could live 40 more years with the guilt? Then there was those inmates at Auschwitz Concentration camp, women who smothered their babies in order to avoid more immediate torture and death, most of those didn't live much longer for doing that horrible act! The Concentration Camp was the result of a Police State, the Soviets had those as well. The regime of Putin is basically a fascist regime.

In the case of Europe, there was recently a poll conducted in Germany where 70% of Germans didn't want any permanent NATO Bases in Poland, because it might upset those fascist Russians. They are willing to sacrifice their fellow Europeans to maintain a Polish invasion corridor for the Russians, where a permanent NATO base in Poland would probably deter the Russians from invading Poland, but the Germans want the Poles to take that risk to avoid putting any German soldiers in harms way in the Nation next door, little realizing is if they keep that Polish Invasion corridor open for the Russians, they have no buffer state to block the Russians from invading Germany! The Germans fail to learn the lessons they're own country taught when it started World War II. Hitler didn't invade anyone because he was mad at anyone, it was more a matter of seizing the opportunity, all those people who ended up dying was of little consequence to Hitler, they were just pawns to enable his plans for World conquest.

Last edited by Tom Kalbfus (2014-06-30 05:49:19)

martienne · 2014-07-02 06:17:29

People here writing kilometers of text on a country they do not understand, have never visited and don't speak the language of.

Based on angled news articles, dictionary entries and Wikipedia.
Some take every opportunity to try to "shine" with their "insights" about matters like WW2 or old European history.
Add to that cold war prejudice, misinformation and re-gurgitated propaganda (yes, the West does that, and much better than the USSR ever did).

The ARROGANCE, ignorance and stupidity displayed in some comments here, is shocking.

This has nothing to do with anyone in North America and the US has already done more than enough damage with its meddling.

I am SOOOO disappointed to see people that I thought were visionary, intelligent and cosmopolitan - i.e. Mars fans - to display such provincial narrow-mindedness, prejudice and susceptibility to propaganda.

Last edited by martienne (2014-07-02 06:17:55)

Terraformer · 2014-07-02 06:43:03

This *is* the Mars Society forum. They're not noted for being open minded - otherwise they would support colonising other places as well as Mars...

RobertDyck · 2014-07-02 08:13:05

@martienne: Sorry. I tried to argue with Tom. But he's intransigent. In the end I asked JoshNH4H to ban Tom from this discussion thread. After all, I started it. Josh responded that he can't ban anyone from one particular thread.

I grew up during the 1960s and 1970s, during the Cold War. We citizens lobbied our government for decades to end the Cold War. It finally did end. We certainly don't want it to come back. But certain warmongers appear determined to bring it back. Showing disrespect for another country is a sure way back to Cold War, or worse "Hot" war.

This affects the Mars Society because we want to go to Mars. There were proposals to use Energia long before me. And Russian rocket engines are used by Atlas V and Antares launch vehicles. Yuzhmash factory in east Ukraine manufactures Zenit rockets used by Sea Launch, as well as the first stage of Antares.

And I am worried that those from CIS countries would treat Tom's comments as representative of all of us.

Tom Kalbfus · 2014-07-02 09:40:29

Terraformer wrote:

This *is* the Mars Society forum. They're not noted for being open minded - otherwise they would support colonising other places as well as Mars...

Oh I support colonizing plenty of places other than Mars. I think Mars is the easiest however, next to the Moon, it is easier to get a person on the Moon, but Mars is low hanging fruit, later on we could consider some extra solar planets.

Tom Kalbfus · 2014-07-02 09:50:28

martienne wrote:

People here writing kilometers of text on a country they do not understand, have never visited and don't speak the language of.
Based on angled news articles, dictionary entries and Wikipedia.
Some take every opportunity to try to "shine" with their "insights" about matters like WW2 or old European history.
Add to that cold war prejudice, misinformation and re-gurgitated propaganda (yes, the West does that, and much better than the USSR ever did).
The ARROGANCE, ignorance and stupidity displayed in some comments here, is shocking.
This has nothing to do with anyone in North America and the US has already done more than enough damage with its meddling.
I am SOOOO disappointed to see people that I thought were visionary, intelligent and cosmopolitan - i.e. Mars fans - to display such provincial narrow-mindedness, prejudice and susceptibility to propaganda.

I have family in Poland, My wife's Polish an I married into her family when I married her - most still live in Poland and I don't want them becoming refugees or living under Russian rule, assuming the Russians would let them live, and I don't want the country next door being absorbed by Russia. I like lots of buffer states between my wife's country and Russia, Ukraine would do, but not if its turned into a "Warsaw Pact" nation or becomes part of Russia. Russia has got to learn to act like and be treated just like any other European Nation. Russia is on par with Germany by economic ranking as stated in the Moscow times, if you can trust it! http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/ … 83190.html. So Germany no longer bullies its neighbors, I'm waiting for Russia to stop and act like a civilized member of Europe. Tell me how I'm expecting too much? If Germany wanted, it could have a big army just like Russia, it could have nuclear weapons, it could intimidate Austria and demand its own sphere of influence, but it does not! I am waiting for Russia to learn this same lesson that Germany has, and stop acting like a big bully that thinks its so special and above all the other countries of Europe.

Am I being too unreasonable to expect this? Ukraine is its own country, it has its own rights and no country should be dictating Finlandization to it. Russians think their special, but then so do Germans, Poles, and Ukrainians. If there are Ukrainians that do not want to be Ukrainians, they can go to some other country. I'm applying the Golden Rule here.

Tom Kalbfus · 2014-07-02 09:55:12

RobertDyck wrote:

@martienne: Sorry. I tried to argue with Tom. But he's intransigent. In the end I asked JoshNH4H to ban Tom from this discussion thread. After all, I started it. Josh responded that he can't ban anyone from one particular thread.
I grew up during the 1960s and 1970s, during the Cold War. We citizens lobbied our government for decades to end the Cold War. It finally did end. We certainly don't want it to come back. But certain warmongers appear determined to bring it back. Showing disrespect for another country is a sure way back to Cold War, or worse "Hot" war.
This affects the Mars Society because we want to go to Mars. There were proposals to use Energia long before me. And Russian rocket engines are used by Atlas V and Antares launch vehicles. Yuzhmash factory in east Ukraine manufactures Zenit rockets used by Sea Launch, as well as the first stage of Antares.
And I am worried that those from CIS countries would treat Tom's comments as representative of all of us.

That's nice, you want to shut me up! Can't you tolerate a difference of opinion and just let it go at that? I'm not going to agree with you that Russia is special and should be treated differently from other European Countries. Germany has a similar sized economy to Russia's, why not partner with Germany, I'm sure they could build a big rocket too. How do you account for he differences in behavior by Russia and Germany, they both have histories of troublemaking in Europe?

martienne · 2014-07-02 11:21:50

RobertDyck wrote:

@martienne: Sorry. I tried to argue with Tom. But he's intransigent. In the end I asked JoshNH4H to ban Tom from this discussion thread. After all, I started it. Josh responded that he can't ban anyone from one particular thread.
I grew up during the 1960s and 1970s, during the Cold War. We citizens lobbied our government for decades to end the Cold War. It finally did end. We certainly don't want it to come back. But certain warmongers appear determined to bring it back. Showing disrespect for another country is a sure way back to Cold War, or worse "Hot" war.
This affects the Mars Society because we want to go to Mars. There were proposals to use Energia long before me. And Russian rocket engines are used by Atlas V and Antares launch vehicles. Yuzhmash factory in east Ukraine manufactures Zenit rockets used by Sea Launch, as well as the first stage of Antares.
And I am worried that those from CIS countries would treat Tom's comments as representative of all of us.

Sadly, based on the opinions displayed by most members here -- ranging from patronising or condescending to downright hateful towards Russia, no Russian person will eventually want to have anything to do with the USA in terms of space travel. Same would go for Kazakhstan and Belarus where people consider Russia their closest ally.

When looking for international partners for space endeavours, Russia will have no choice but to look elsewhere; a person/group/nation can only put up with so much mistreatment, attempt at bullying and outright hostility. It's a pity because culturally Russia has more in common with Europe/USA than Asian nations, but in the current climate China would still be a more attractive partner, or perhaps India or Brazil.

The US and its obedient EU puppets is repeatedly proving that it is applying a double standard with regards to Russia. The US can intervene and invade anywhere it likes. Russia hasn't actually intervened in Ukraine, right on its doorstep, but is still accused of somehow being in error.

The US has shown that it cannot keep its word on political promises it makes, or be trusted financially, militarily or in any other meaningful way. It is prepared to go to any length to further its agenda, including right on Russia's doorstep, while breaking agreements regarding NATO expansion and bullying Russia's European business partners into reneging on valuable contracts and long standing business agreements. Trusting the US on anything, is foolish - it is not just untrustworthy but downright solicitous.

Fortunately Russia is in a position that it can re-orient itself Eastwards, and that will be what will happen.

People outside of the USA/Europe as well as many Europeans are also beginning to see through the actions of the USA, feel revulsion about the destructive reign of the the USA ruining one country after another with invasions or meddling.

My feelings about this right now, is that Russia ought to cut co-operation with the US in space. Why co-operate with someone who behaves the way the US does? Have some dignity, Russia!

Go it alone, put the space programme to rest for a while, or get another partner. Let the US build its own rockets and space station if it still has any skills within the country, or money to pay for it. If not, tough luck, and treat your partners a bit more respectfully next time! For Russia to co-operate with somebody who is prepared to behave like a civilised partner and not an international bully, war-mongerer, propagandist and worldwide destroyer or nations.

Frankly, I think the thought of being stuck on Mars with a bunch of Americans is not a thought that appeals to any Russians in their right mind at the moment.
It's too bad on intelligent and nice Americans who realise what their government is like. But enough is enough!

Last edited by martienne (2014-07-02 11:25:46)

RobertDyck · 2014-07-02 16:43:51

Tom Kalbfus wrote:

How do you account for he differences in behavior by Russia and Germany, they both have histories of troublemaking in Europe?

I said before, Germany did behave itself before WW1. Then they were dragged into WW1 via their alliance with Austria-Hungary. After the War, France bullied Germany, blamed them. France insisted the Treaty of Versailles force Germany to pay war reparations. That bullied Germany so much that a leader arose to get them out of it. Hitler didn't win any election, he manipulated and bullied his way to power. Germany would never have allowed that if their economy wasn't destroyed. He promised citizens that he would return Germany to its past glory. The result was WW2.

Now you want to great Russia as if they lost a major war. They didn't. The Soviet Union collapsed on its own. We could go into details, but the point is they didn't lose to America. But you want to treat Russia as badly as Germany was treated after WW1. Germany's economy was the most powerful on the planet before WW1, and the world economy was far more entangled than anyone realized. Destroying Germany's economy caused a massive world wide recession teetering on the brink of depression. The American stock market crash of 1929 pushed it over the brink. Many economists claim that deep recession caused the stock market crash. If you accept that, then destroying Germany's economy caused the Great Depression. Since the break up of the Soviet Union, the US did balance its budget for a while. Then George W. Bush got in, increased military spending, and pushed the US bank into deficit. That stressed the US banking system until it melted down. The 2008 banking system melt-down was the modern equivalent of the stock market crash. It damn near did cause another depression. China and Europe bailed out the US. China bought treasury bonds, Europe bought some, but mostly they didn't cut off their banking system from the US, they let their banking systems go down too and put their effort into bailing out their own banks. With their banking systems still tied to the US banking system, that greatly helped the US system. Do you not see the parallels? Do you not understand how Russia is like Germany during the Great Depression? They resent the collapse of their economy, and resent loss of status as a Super Power. They want return to past glory.

Tom, you keep trying to treat Russia as if they're defeated. That will only create a new Hitler. Do you understand the pressures this is putting on Vladimir Putin to become a Hitler? He has actually resisted. But continuing to push him will force him into desperation. And trying to treat all Russians as if their country is crap, as if Russian goods are crap, treating all Russian citizens as if they are a defeated country, will force a political response to create a new Hitler. That would force Putin to either become Hitler himself, or be replaced by a new political leader even more extreme.

Or does all this explain your behaviour as well? Are you responding like a German citizens during the Great Depression? Demanding a leader who can return American to what you perceive as its past glory? You want a leader to blame someone outside America for your economic collapse? I've got news for you: America's economic wows are caused by the banking system melt-down of 2008; not anything external. And that was caused by overspending from the time of George W.'s inauguration.

Why don't we all work toward one big happy world-wide economy? No "spheres of influence". No isolated trade unions. Just one world economy with every country, east and west, buying goods from each other. End overspending on military because there is no superpower rival. Just let America and Russia be friends.

Sometimes I wish we could just all get together for a big party. I would love to meet some of those lovely Russian young women. Canada could bring cases of Crown Royal (rye whiskey, that brand is even better than Seagram's or CC), Russia could bring vodka, and America could bring bourbon. Party!

Tom Kalbfus · 2014-07-02 19:08:47

One assassination? How come when JFK was assassinated it didn't drag us into World War III? If the Kaiser was Vice President of the United States in 1963, he would have declared war on the Soviet Union! he Kaiser was a warmonger eager to get into a war, and was looking for any excuse to knock out Russia before it eclipsed Germany, what the Kaiser did not count on was how the machinegun transformed the battlefield making if difficult to take land, from where he sat, the Kaiser saw victory at the beginning, he thought the war would be a cakewalk, that's why he declared war on Russia and France, Kaiser wanted to build his empire because other European countries had theirs Great Britain France, Germany missed out on all the "colonial fun" having just been formed in the 1870s, so it sought to colonize Europe the way Great Britain colonized the Americas, Africa, India, Asia, and Africa. Germany could have avoided the war easily if the Kaiser was so inclined, he was no victim.

RobertDyck wrote:

Tom Kalbfus wrote:
How do you account for he differences in behavior by Russia and Germany, they both have histories of troublemaking in Europe?
I said before, Germany did behave itself before WW1. Then they were dragged into WW1 via their alliance with Austria-Hungary. After the War, France bullied Germany, blamed them. France insisted the Treaty of Versailles force Germany to pay war reparations. That bullied Germany so much that a leader arose to get them out of it. Hitler didn't win any election, he manipulated and bullied his way to power. Germany would never have allowed that if their economy wasn't destroyed. He promised citizens that he would return Germany to its past glory. The result was WW2.

Let me just ask you, when World War I ended the Germans were in France and they caused extensive damage their, they also invaded Belgium and the Netherlands, both neutral countries at the time. Belgium didn't do anything to Germany, Germany's invasion of their countries was a pure act of aggression!

Now you want to great Russia as if they lost a major war. They didn't. The Soviet Union collapsed on its own.

Don't tell me Putin is completely ignorant of Germany's defeat and can't learn a lesson from other countries' experiences in starting wars. Are you saying we need a major nuclear war with Russia in order for those Russians to learn the same lesson Germany did with the destruction of their cities and tens of millions dead? So Russia will just go on making the same mistakes Germany did in the 1930s and stumble into a major World War because they are incapable of learning from others?

We could go into details, but the point is they didn't lose to America. But you want to treat Russia as badly as Germany was treated after WW1.

No we want to treat Russia the way Germany was treated after World War II. Why do you want the World War I example, The United States had little to do with the treaty o Versailles at the time. What the USA was involved in was the treatment of Germany after World War II, and look at Germany today, it has a GDP about the same as Russia with fewer people, so I have to say Germany wasn't treated too badly considering the things it did during World War II.

Germany's economy was the most powerful on the planet before WW1, and the world economy was far more entangled than anyone realized.

Actually the United States overshadowed it even back.

Destroying Germany's economy caused a massive world wide recession teetering on the brink of depression. The American stock market crash of 1929 pushed it over the brink. Many economists claim that deep recession caused the stock market crash. If you accept that, then destroying Germany's economy caused the Great Depression. Since the break up of the Soviet Union, the US did balance its budget for a while. Then George W. Bush got in, increased military spending, and pushed the US bank into deficit.

Perhaps you are forgetting that something happened before that military increase, like the attack on 9/11 for instance? FDR also increased military spending a great deal more after the attack on Pearl Harbor, which killed fewer people that the 9/11 attack in 2001.

That stressed the US banking system until it melted down. The 2008 banking system melt-down was the modern equivalent of the stock market crash. It damn near did cause another depression. China and Europe bailed out the US. China bought treasury bonds, Europe bought some, but mostly they didn't cut off their banking system from the US, they let their banking systems go down too and put their effort into bailing out their own banks. With their banking systems still tied to the US banking system, that greatly helped the US system. Do you not see the parallels? Do you not understand how Russia is like Germany during the Great Depression? They resent the collapse of their economy, and resent loss of status as a Super Power. They want return to past glory.

Why can't it be like Germany after World War II, that Germany I a much happier place than the Germany between the World Wars, one that deals in trade instead of invasion violence and the building of empires at their neighbor's expense. The Germany after World War II can be successful and its citizens prosperous without subjugating and victimizing others. I think Post World War II Germany is a positive role model for Russia to follow, don't you think much better than Hitler's Germany and its persecution of Jews?

Tom, you keep trying to treat Russia as if they're defeated.

We were very generous with Germany when we defeated them, the Germans have a much higher standard of living than the Russians, who were the notational victors of World War II

That will only create a new Hitler.

So your saying treating Russia the way we treated Germany after World War II will create another Hitler, such as giving the the Marshal Plan for instance, helping to rebuild their industries and so forth? I dare say, the Russians would be a lot better off today if they were defeated in a war by us, as we typically are very generous to our enemies, much more so than the Russians were with their part of Germany that they occupied after World War II.

Do you understand the pressures this is putting on Vladimir Putin to become a Hitler?

He already is down that path, and do you believe that the Russian people or Putin are ignorant of what ultimately happened to Hitler because he followed that path that Putin is now following, and do you believe they have any illusions about winning World War III they way Hitler thought he could win World War II?

He has actually resisted. But continuing to push him will force him into desperation. And trying to treat all Russians as if their country is crap, as if Russian goods are crap, treating all Russian citizens as if they are a defeated country, will force a political response to create a new Hitler. That would force Putin to either become Hitler himself, or be replaced by a new political leader even more extreme.

How does that make the Russians believe that they can win World War III? Do they think our nuclear weapons will just disappear? How stupid do you think the Russians are, they did a lot of practice for a potential nuclear war, the evacuated cities and such. If they Russians thought they could win without destroying themselves, they would have started by now, but they haven't. We want nothing from Russia but for them to stay within their borders and stop invading other countries., that s not the same as a defeated Germany.

Or does all this explain your behaviour as well? Are you responding like a German citizens during the Great Depression? Demanding a leader who can return American to what you perceive as its past glory? You want a leader to blame someone outside America for your economic collapse? I've got news for you: America's economic wows are caused by the banking system melt-down of 2008; not anything external. And that was caused by overspending from the time of George W.'s inauguration.
Why don't we all work toward one big happy world-wide economy? No "spheres of influence". No isolated trade unions. Just one world economy with every country, east and west, buying goods from each other. End overspending on military because there is no superpower rival. Just let America and Russia be friends.
Sometimes I wish we could just all get together for a big party. I would love to meet some of those lovely Russian young women. Canada could bring cases of Crown Royal (rye whiskey, that brand is even better than Seagram's or CC), Russia could bring vodka, and America could bring bourbon. Party!

RobertDyck · 2014-07-02 20:11:30

Tom, I don't think you're that stupid. I said you're trying to treat Russia as Germany after World War 1. Not 2, I said 1. That caused World War 2. And you are trying to cause another world war. Knock it off.

You keep trying to be a bully. You keep trying to intimidate. What happened to France and Germany after World War 1? Or World War 2? What do you think would be left after Russia and American exchange their entire nuclear arsenal? Many scientists likened the Soviet vs American rivalry as two men standing in a room filled up to their waist with gasoline, and arguing over who has more matches. After Russia and America annihilate each other, there won't be some other country with a Marshall Plan to rebuild America. You could think China would dominate, after Russia and America destroyed each other. But nuclear war will trigger nuclear winter.

Here's a link to a movie called "The Day After", produced in 1983. Full movie uploaded to YouTube. It depicts what will happen after nuclear war.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2B7sdLPMfc

Or better yet, here is a lecture entitled "If You Love This Planet". 1982. The movie is 2 hours long, the lecture only 25 minutes and 50 seconds.
https://www.nfb.ca/film/if_you_love_this_planet/

And every time you demand that Russia surrender to the US, why don't you surrender to Russia? How well do you think that would work out? Do you really think any Russian would trust America any more than you would trust Russia?

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