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Void

Member

Registered: 2011-12-29

Posts: 7,820

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

Actually like you just the way you are cousins.  Good to remind us of our failures/falling short of the glory and that.  Really, thanks.  But get real.  Dead is dead.  The planet is not radioactive.  (Yet)

The Nazi plan was to make a superman by limiting the gene pool.  Supposing that a previous glorious type could be rescued from a mass of inferiors.  They apparently believed in genetics as supreme.

The Soviets believed like so many that the human mind is a "Blank" slate.  You could just take anyone re-educate them and turn them into angles.  They also believed in the superman composed of a mixture of gene pools, taking the best from each.

Both are wrong in my opinion in every way.  Both end in a limited gene pool, and fail where adaptation is later required.  Reality does not hold still for us.  Both suppose that you could somehow arrive at a perfect person composed of the perfect genes to cope with the present situation.

The participants did great damage to their gene pools.  And such arrogance, thinking that they could determine what a perfect being would be.

Everything they did was about alphas responding to limited understanding, and hoping to situate themselves and their descendants into a favorable future, but the future is always changing.  Reality is only our calculations about what we sense is around us now, and falls far from what is to be.

---

End

martienne

Member

From: EU

Registered: 2014-03-29

Posts: 146

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

I'm so relieved that at least one person here has their eyes open about what type of a country the US is.

As for Ukraine; it's all falling to pieces now.

They couldn't get regular recruits to fire on their own countrymen in the East, so they recruited Right Sector thugs and mercenaries to do it. Now, they haven't paid them - and these guys are furious!

The death toll in the East is rising.

I learnt recently that  one of the main reason for the EU to want control of Eastern Ukraine (known as Donbass, for the rich mining vein which runs through there), is that in addition to the industries and the mining, there is also plenty of shale gas; the kind that's extracted by fracking - totally unexploited.

Not to mention the temptation for NATO to put a base right on Russia's border (exactly what the US promised Russia would never happen - but it already has, and the US wants more of the same. Or a one-way trade deal with the EU to allow for setting up sweatshops in Ukraine, and importing without tax, and expanding the usual EU brands properly into Ukraine. At the moment, it's not a complete job.

It's clear now that the only hope for Eastern Ukraine, is Russia. Putin isn't perfect and Russia has its problems. But at least its got a future, and opportunities. Ukraine is going to be the worst country in Europe to live in, for decades to come. Only Russia can calm down the troublemakers, and to most Russian speakers in South Eastern Ukraine, it's really swings and roundabouts which country they belong to.
The one that shares their culture or language, or the one that has been slightly more easygoing but has gradually turned into a circus, and now a fighting arena.

I wish I knew why Putin doesn't do anything. How long is he going to let this go on for. It's not like the vilification of Russia in the West could get any worse, and there are no sanctions to fear. So come on already, and don't let us get a Syria on our hands in Europe!

With each of these US manipulations, my dislike for this country grows.
Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, Ukraine.
The US meddles and manipulates, or invades.

Mayhem, chaos, death and destruction follow. Because they are touching a status quo they don't understand, don't care about - all they want is to get their hands on the oil, or the strategic real estate on the chessboard of global politics.

And Tom Kalbfus: The Romans certainly didn't crucify people for entertainment. It was just a punishment to deter potential troublemakers. It was done outside the cities, and not a public spectacles. It took the crucified people over a day to die.  It was the gladiator games that were for entertainment.

Last edited by martienne (2014-06-17 15:59:37)

Tom Kalbfus

Banned

Registered: 2006-08-16

Posts: 4,401

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatherland … Europe.jpg
Suppose the post war map of Europe looked like this? The United States still exists, but the other Superpower was the Third Reich instead of the Soviet Union, and the United States is looking for a way not to get into a nuclear war with it. this map comes from the book and Movie Fatherland. Dated 1964. What would the space race look like? Don't know why the image doesn't show up here.

Basically the Third Reich has nuclear weapons and so does the USA. Von Braun is in charge of the German Space Program. The Third reich is pretty much halted in its plans for further expansion. The "Peace Now" Movement is a different animal from that of our 1960s. The folks running that movement don't get too bothered by what happened to the Jews. So who are the hawks and doves in this alternate history?

Last edited by Tom Kalbfus (2014-06-17 17:12:36)

RobertDyck

Moderator

From: Winnipeg, Canada

Registered: 2002-08-20

Posts: 7,934

Website

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

@martienne: Don't let me stop you from arguing with Tom. But, I should point out several fighters in East Ukraine have been found with Russian passports. They're Chechen. And...

Russia let tanks into eastern Ukraine to aid separatists, Kiev alleges

Ukraine’s Interior Minister accused Russia on Thursday of allowing three tanks and other military vehicles to cross the border into east Ukraine to help pro-Russian separatists there.

Russia did not immediately respond to the accusations but Reuters correspondents saw three tanks in the border town of Snizhnye in east Ukraine.

Video of one of the tanks...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dnt0QYyjdLc

martienne

Member

From: EU

Registered: 2014-03-29

Posts: 146

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

@martienne: Don't let me stop you from arguing with Tom. But, I should point out several fighters in East Ukraine have been found with Russian passports. They're Chechen. And...

Russia let tanks into eastern Ukraine to aid separatists, Kiev alleges

Ukraine’s Interior Minister accused Russia on Thursday of allowing three tanks and other military vehicles to cross the border into east Ukraine to help pro-Russian separatists there.

Russia did not immediately respond to the accusations but Reuters correspondents saw three tanks in the border town of Snizhnye in east Ukraine.

Video of one of the tanks...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dnt0QYyjdLc

Ok, but most people in Russia are REALLY upset about this. They just feel very strongly for the Russians/Russian speakers in Ukraine. At least half of Russia has relatives who are Ukrainian, or have lived there, or some other connection.

So I'm not surprised that a few took it upon themselves to go to Ukraine.

The Chechens just like to fight. They have a culture that values it. They used to be against Moscow. These days they are super-pro Russia, and very patriotic, because their leader switched sides, to pledge allegiance to Putin. They are not easy to control, they only care about their own leader. `

The Chechen republic has a president called Ramzan Kadirov. He has said very harshly that nobody from Chechnya should go to Ukraine for any reason, so they are taking a risk if they go anyway.  Kadirov is not a nice person to be on the wrong side of. He was interviewed on TV and asked anybody who knew anything about Chechens in Ukraine, to inform the authorities who they were.

Putin has also said unequivocally that he doesn't want any "volunteers" to go there, but obviously he can't control what every single person in the country does.

Putin keep sounding like he's holding back, like there is a side of this he's not telling, i.e. you get the feeling he's literally saying "don't do anything now, we have a plan, and you'll mess it up if you go there now". But nothing about what exactly he's planning, or when. And it may just be nothing.
In that case his ratings will start dropping. These are the aunts, grandparents, cousins, in-laws, siblings and old friends of people in Russia, who are under attack and dying.  Whose towns are being destroyed. Russians want a leader who will stand up to bullies when it counts, and right now Putin is looking like a whimp.

Almost everyone in Russia is getting seriously annoyed that Putin's just looking on, as Russians are getting bombed, killed and having to flee. Something like 100,000 women and children have fled to Russia and are staying with relatives, or in empty holiday resorts etc.

As for sanctions, most people in Russia are like "bring it on, who cares about Western junk anyway. Let's just save our brothers in Ukraine. "

Those tanks, I honestly don't know, but they are apparently very old Soviet vintage. Apparently it's nothing that's in use in Russia today. Could come from anywhere. There is a lot of military junk floating around in the ex USSR, including Ukraine. The border between Russia and Ukraine is long and poorly guarded, part of the area is not very populated. I suppose you could smuggle in a tank if you knew what you were doing. The border guards in that region are almost certainly neutral or on the side of the rebels.
Or the tank might have been in Ukraine all along. In Belarus there are old Soviet tanks around that are totally superflous.

Again - this is not the RU government doing anything. It's regular people. If the government did something it would be proper kit, not 30 year old gear which is what the rebels clearly have now.  And Ukraine wouldn't be able to blink until it was all over. 

However regular citizens of Russia are boiling over about this, and clearly some people aren't going to sit and wait for Putin to maybe do something, maybe not... It's a big country, and if you are in Rostov or Taganrog, then Moscow is far, far away. Putin can't guard what everybody in Russia does.

Like I said before, almost everybody in Russia and Ukraine have done compulsory military service in the Soviet army, or the RU or Ukrainian army. For the ex Soviet special forces soldiers who are leading things in Ukraine (now Ukrainian citizens), they have comrades across the ex USSR. The brotherhood is very strong.

It wouldn't surprise me if some of their old friends, a few younger hotheads and some Chechens have decided to go fight with them. Russia has a very strong tradition of not letting your friends or colleagues down. So there will be those ex soldiers who know the leaders in the Donetsk and Lugansk people's republics, who would have felt obliged to go there and help out unless there was some very strong reason not to. Completely regardless of what country they are citizens of today, Russia, Kazakhstan, Belarus or whatever.

Apparently a bunch of Latvian and Lithuanian patriots/nazis or whatever they call themselves went to sign up with the Ukrainian professional force that has been attacking the East. People in Slavyansk couldn't believe their ears when they heard the attackers speak Lithuanian.

.

Last edited by martienne (2014-06-17 19:14:06)

Tom Kalbfus

Banned

Registered: 2006-08-16

Posts: 4,401

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

Evil is on the march on this 100th Anniversary of World War I, not only in the Ukraine, but the black flag of Al Qaeda in taking cities in Iraq. Don't you see the pattern here, just like in the 1930s, the free world is shrinking, the dictators are on the march and the shadows grow long!

Watch this video from 1979 at starting at 1:11

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=TV+ … D8F809416B

Last edited by Tom Kalbfus (2014-06-17 20:18:20)

Tom Kalbfus

Banned

Registered: 2006-08-16

Posts: 4,401

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

@martienne: Don't let me stop you from arguing with Tom. But, I should point out several fighters in East Ukraine have been found with Russian passports. They're Chechen. And...

Russia let tanks into eastern Ukraine to aid separatists, Kiev alleges

Ukraine’s Interior Minister accused Russia on Thursday of allowing three tanks and other military vehicles to cross the border into east Ukraine to help pro-Russian separatists there.

Russia did not immediately respond to the accusations but Reuters correspondents saw three tanks in the border town of Snizhnye in east Ukraine.

Video of one of the tanks...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dnt0QYyjdLc

Ok, but most people in Russia are REALLY upset about this. They just feel very strongly for the Russians/Russian speakers in Ukraine. At least half of Russia has relatives who are Ukrainian, or have lived there, or some other connection.

So I'm not surprised that a few took it upon themselves to go to Ukraine.

The Chechens just like to fight. They have a culture that values it. They used to be against Moscow. These days they are super-pro Russia, and very patriotic, because their leader switched sides, to pledge allegiance to Putin. They are not easy to control, they only care about their own leader. `

Like maybe he sent that Boston Marathon Bomber. Russia is duplicitious and prone to switch sides, like it did in World War II, and as depicted in the video clip I indicated in my previous post hosted by Orson Wells about Nostrodamus. I don't actually believe in the occult, but the scenario at the end of the show comes pretty close to the mark, he predicted that World War III would last 27 years, could be the War on Terror as we now know it. 27 years from 2001 is 2028, plenty of time for a new nation to arise up out of the sands of Arabia and launch missiles at us as the show predicts, it also depicts an ABM system used by the United States, and this show was produced in 1979, this war gives us time to develop that as well. This scenario begins 1 hour and 11 minutes into the show. You should be very concerned martienne, because not only New York City gets blown up, but also Paris! Maybe France grows a pair and takes an active roll in fighting terrorism, according to Nostrodamus, this war still has another 14 years to go!
The United States also eventually does win when the powers of the arctic circle join. That's just this show, I think it comes closer to our present situation than later shows about Nostrodamus.

The Chechen republic has a president called Ramzan Kadirov. He has said very harshly that nobody from Chechnya should go to Ukraine for any reason, so they are taking a risk if they go anyway.  Kadirov is not a nice person to be on the wrong side of. He was interviewed on TV and asked anybody who knew anything about Chechens in Ukraine, to inform the authorities who they were.

Putin has also said unequivocally that he doesn't want any "volunteers" to go there, but obviously he can't control what every single person in the country does.

Putin keep sounding like he's holding back, like there is a side of this he's not telling, i.e. you get the feeling he's literally saying "don't do anything now, we have a plan, and you'll mess it up if you go there now". But nothing about what exactly he's planning, or when. And it may just be nothing.

Perhaps Putin wants another puppet state that he can control, much like the Soviet Union controlled the Warsaw Pact countries and got those extra votes in the UN, if they join Russia, Russia will still only get one vote. I think Putin may want something that looks more like an alliance than simply Russia taking territory and expanding, his first inclination was to take Crimea and annex it, but if he annexes all of Eastern Ukraine, he will lose his opportunity to have a Puppet state, and also if he takes all of Eastern Ukraine and leaves Western Ukraine, he's almost guaranteeing that NATO will have a new member called West Ukraine, he's enlarged not only Russia but also NATO in effect!

In that case his ratings will start dropping. These are the aunts, grandparents, cousins, in-laws, siblings and old friends of people in Russia, who are under attack and dying.  Whose towns are being destroyed. Russians want a leader who will stand up to bullies when it counts, and right now Putin is looking like a whimp.

I'm afraid nobody outwimps Obama in International relations, Obama is the wimpiest President we've ever had!

Almost everyone in Russia is getting seriously annoyed that Putin's just looking on, as Russians are getting bombed, killed and having to flee. Something like 100,000 women and children have fled to Russia and are staying with relatives, or in empty holiday resorts etc.

Yep all those Russian civilians are just itching to go to War with the United States, I think they've forgotten we still have nuclear warheads and so do they. Those nuclear warheads can kill them. Putin is not the next "Hitler" nobody can be, barring of course the US Army acting like the Iraqi Army when confronted with terrorists. The Iraqi Army certainly is wimpiest, we give them advanced weapons and the training to use them and they still run away, some of them get captured and are shot in the head by the enemy. Maybe the US President is a wimp, but the US Army isn't!

As for sanctions, most people in Russia are like "bring it on, who cares about Western junk anyway. Let's just save our brothers in Ukraine. "

I think most Russians don't care about international relations or how well Putin is standing up to the West as much as they care about earning a living, I think you are reading them wrong! Sanctions will hurt the Russians, maybe Putin doesn't care about the Russians being hurt because he has a lock on power, but Russians will be hurt, mark my words!

Those tanks, I honestly don't know, but they are apparently very old Soviet vintage. Apparently it's nothing that's in use in Russia today. Could come from anywhere. There is a lot of military junk floating around in the ex USSR, including Ukraine. The border between Russia and Ukraine is long and poorly guarded, part of the area is not very populated. I suppose you could smuggle in a tank if you knew what you were doing. The border guards in that region are almost certainly neutral or on the side of the rebels.
Or the tank might have been in Ukraine all along. In Belarus there are old Soviet tanks around that are totally superflous.

Yep, just go to an Army surplus store and buy yourself a tank!

Again - this is not the RU government doing anything. It's regular people. If the government did something it would be proper kit, not 30 year old gear which is what the rebels clearly have now.  And Ukraine wouldn't be able to blink until it was all over.

 
Putin is flesh and blood, Putin is mortal, he is not a god, nor is he untouchable, if he gets too close to the wrong Ukrainian, that could be the end of him mind you.

However regular citizens of Russia are boiling over about this, and clearly some people aren't going to sit and wait for Putin to maybe do something, maybe not... It's a big country, and if you are in Rostov or Taganrog, then Moscow is far, far away. Putin can't guard what everybody in Russia does.

That is pathetic, Russians don't normally Rebel, they weren't interested in getting involved in World War I for instance, in fact forcing them to fight Germany is what led to the Russian Revolution in the first place, their "Gung Ho-ness" is highly overrated!

Like I said before, almost everybody in Russia and Ukraine have done compulsory military service in the Soviet army, or the RU or Ukrainian army. For the ex Soviet special forces soldiers who are leading things in Ukraine (now Ukrainian citizens), they have comrades across the ex USSR. The brotherhood is very strong.

In other words Ukrainians were slaves to the Soviet Military service and have a much loyalty to their former masters as did Sparticus!

It wouldn't surprise me if some of their old friends, a few younger hotheads and some Chechens have decided to go fight with them. Russia has a very strong tradition of not letting your friends or colleagues down. So there will be those ex soldiers who know the leaders in the Donetsk and Lugansk people's republics, who would have felt obliged to go there and help out unless there was some very strong reason not to. Completely regardless of what country they are citizens of today, Russia, Kazakhstan, Belarus or whatever.

Apparently a bunch of Latvian and Lithuanian patriots/nazis or whatever they call themselves went to sign up with the Ukrainian professional force that has been attacking the East. People in Slavyansk couldn't believe their ears when they heard the attackers speak Lithuanian.

.

You keep forgetting it was the Germans that started World War II, everybody else either went along for the ride or was a victim, oh by the way, plenty of French Nazis as well, they were called Vichies I believe!

RobertDyck

Moderator

From: Winnipeg, Canada

Registered: 2002-08-20

Posts: 7,934

Website

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

Again - this is not the RU government doing anything. It's regular people. If the government did something it would be proper kit, not 30 year old gear which is what the rebels clearly have now.

Regular people do not have shoulder launched missiles, also known as MAN Portable Air Defence System (MANPADS).
Ukraine crisis: pro-Russian rebels attack military plane

pro-Russia separatists shot down a Ukrainian military transport plane, killing all 49 crew and troops aboard
...
Nine crew and 40 troops were aboard the Il-76 when it went down early Saturday as it approached the airport at the city of Luhansk, the Ukrainian prosecutor general's office said in a statement.

martienne

Member

From: EU

Registered: 2014-03-29

Posts: 146

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

I'm not going to bother debating with Russophobes or people who are clueless about history and culture.

You can think what you likes, and nothing I say will make any of them change their views.
Definitely not into arguing with people to entertain them.

Regular people do not have shoulder launched missiles, also known as MAN Portable Air Defence System (MANPADS).
Ukraine crisis: pro-Russian rebels attack military plane

If you had followed the news on this, you'd know that the rebels raided the military depots in the area, i.e. they are using Ukrainian supplies. This kit was stored there, and not very securely. Anyone guarding it or keeping the keys was obviously loyal to the rebels and not to Ukraine. Clearly the Ukrainian army didn't see any of this coming.

What interest does Russia have arming some local rebels, when it could easily take the area, with the support of most of the local population any time it wants. 
And btw - nobody is saying that Russia should take ALL of Ukraine. There are clearly people in the West of the country who want nothing to do with Russia. It's either just the Donbass, or they entire Novorossiya area from the Imperial days. As for Kiev, it's a pity on such a nice city, which is also considered the birthplace of the Russian nation But it's Ukrainian now though. (very hard to hear a single word of Ukrainian language spoken there though - I certainly never heard it).

Russia is also WELL aware that Western media is looking and grasping and ANY straw to blackpaint it, in this conflict.

It would hardly give the rebels anything that was obviously Russian, even if it did support the rebels - which Russia doesn't to the great annoyance of the Russian public.

The older Ukrainian and Russian kit is obviously identical, since it's all Soviet.
And there's PLENTY of it around. Everybody did military service, everbody knows where it is, large parts of the Soviet army outside of Russia just withered around and old kit from those days is in wide circulation across Europe. 

People had bigger problems than worrying were some missile launcher was stored.

Robert, I thought you were smarter than listening to only one side in an argument, and then starting to throw accusations. As for the rest here, yes sure, Russians are really evil and will soon nuke Ukraine just for fun, while Putin is laughing and playing the fiddle on the roof of Kreml.

Tom is again totally clueless what he's talking about.
The loyalty of ex USSR citizens to the Soviet army in which they served; in many cases it's really strong. In Central Asia and Belarus particularly, a lot of people would really want the USSR back. Victory day with Soviet banners and marching to Soviet songs, etc is still happening every year in Belarus, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Tadzikistan, Kirgistan along with Russia. It's the second largest holiday and people love it and feel pride about the victory, the red army and the ideals of those days. The poorer parts of Central Asia just miss the cash from Moscow. Victory day used to happen in Ukraine too, but apparently this year they did some kind of anti-victory day instead, celebrating the nazi invasion in the West of Ukraine. I think the Baltic states have some alternative celenration, not the traditional, and I don't know about Turkmenistan.

Remember that you are talking about an area you never visited, where you don't know the language and you ought to be smart enough to realise you are being served propaganda. Please don't talk like you are experts, it just make you look like pretentious fools.

I am not saying that Russia is perfect, just that in this situation, Russia didn't start anything, the West sponsored an ousting of a democratically elected president.
Half the country didn't like it, or at least preferred to wait to the next election. Their language was banned and they were bullied, so they thought, "In that case, we'll also rise up". And suddenly all that was Russia's fault.

Practically everybody in Russia wants Putin to go in and help them out, Putin is showing extreme restraint, doing essentially nothing, totally against public opinion.
Probably he's thinking "let the West see what happens when they meddle in things they don't understand". Or he genuinely thinks the whole area is more trouble than it's worth - cruel and heartless if you ask me.

Meanwhile regular people in Eastern Ukraine and in Russia are waiting for Russia to step in and bail out these people who have now got themselves into a cul-de-sac they can't really get out of. Future citizenship in Ukraine will just not be possible after this, so Lord knows what happens.

All because the US and EU wanted their own man in Kiev and jumped on a small protest, turning a tiny flame into a revolution.
Hope they'll think twice next time. One can only dream.

Look what a "success" the intervention in Libya, Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan turned out to be. Don't you really admire the USA....

Tom Kalbfus, stop wasting your time trying to provoke me with French anecdotes, I am not French. "martienne" is just a French word that means "Martian female". English lacks a word that contains both meanings, so I chose the French word for my user name, that's the only connection. I thought it was kind of obvious, but apparently not.

Like maybe Putin sent that Boston Marathon Bomber.

This is a DELUDED statement. Russia actually WARNED the US about the older Tsarnaev brother, the US ignored it. The family were political refugees to the US for a while, then the parents returned, leaving the kids in the US. Putin hardly "sent" them.
And in case you were not aware, Russia fought a war against Chechens who wanted a Saudi backed "Moslem Caliphate of Caucasus" in Russian Caucasus. That's more or less Tsarnaev's background. These "Islamic Caliphate of Caucasus" people are occassionally exploding bombs in Russia too.

Fortunately most of the Chechens changed sides, but some in Dagestan are still at it, awash with Saudi money.  Up until the Boston bombings, the US though them freedom fighters, simply because they were against Russia. Same pattern as always. Whoever hates Russia is the US friend. In Boston they got to know their friends in the Caucasus a bit better.

Last edited by martienne (2014-06-18 06:09:59)

Tom Kalbfus

Banned

Registered: 2006-08-16

Posts: 4,401

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

I'm not going to bother debating with Russophobes or people who are clueless about history and culture.

You can think what you likes, and nothing I say will make any of them change their views.
Definitely not into arguing with people to entertain them.

Regular people do not have shoulder launched missiles, also known as MAN Portable Air Defence System (MANPADS).
Ukraine crisis: pro-Russian rebels attack military plane

If you had followed the news on this, you'd know that the rebels raided the military depots in the area, i.e. they are using Ukrainian supplies. This kit was stored there, and not very securely, guided by people who were loyal to the rebels and not to Ukraine.

Well isn't that stealing? Isn't stealing wrong? Those weapons were paid for by the taxpayers of Ukraine, and they stole them and are killing the taxpayers of Ukraine with them, isn't that wrong?

Obviously the Ukrainian army didn't see any of this coming.

Why should they? They weren't doing anything wrong just looking to join the EU and suddenly these people got violent and started stealing government weapons paid for by the taxpayers for their protection, that is just wrong. If they were decent honorable folk, they would fight only with weapons given to them by Putin!

What interest does Russia have arming some local rebels, when it could easily take the area, with the support of most of the local population any time it wants.

 
Because Russia is a Christian country and one of the Ten Commandments is "Thou shall not steal!" Bt I guess those words don't translate so well into Russia, according to Russians, "Stealing is good, killing is great" that is why Russia is full of hackers trying to steal your identity over the Intenet!

Russia is also WELL aware that Western media is looking and grasping and ANY straw to blackpaint it, in this conflict.

So why aren't they on their best behavior, why are they acting like bandits and Vikings?

It would hardly give the rebels anything that was obviously Russian, even if it did support the rebels - which Russia doesn't to the great annoyance of the Russian public.

Yes we know how Russia is full of fanatical warmongers who are always looking for an excuse to fight.

The older Ukrainian and Russian kit is obviously identical, since it's all Soviet.
And there's PLENTY of it around. Everybody did military service, everbody knows where it is, large parts of the Soviet army outside of Russia just withered around and old kit from those days is in wide circulation across Europe. 

People had bigger problems than worrying were some missile launcher was stored.

Robert, I thought you were smarter than listening to only one side in an argument, and then starting to throw accusations. As for the rest here, yes sure, Russians are really evil and will soon nuke Ukraine just for fun, while Putin is laughing and playing the fiddle on the roof of Kreml.

Then you can go to Russia and start shooting people if you think fighting is so great! Do you wish to go to Valhalla when you die?

Tom is again totally clueless what he's talking about.
The loyalty of ex USSR citizens to the Soviet army in which they served; in many cases it's really strong. In Central Asia and Belarus particularly, a lot of people would really want the USSR back.

How many 50-year olds want to shoot their children an go back to an econo ic system which didn't work and which caused the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Victory day with Soviet banners and marching to Soviet songs, etc is still happening every year in Belarus, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Tadzikistan, Kirgistan along with Russia.

Do they also celebrate the day the Soviets entered the conflict on September 17th? The Germans were in Poland, the Soviets were not involved until they realized that they didn't want the Germans to get all of Poland. The Soviets entered World War II under less than noble circumstances, all that patriotic fighting was because the Soviets decided to get involved in World War II, they didn't have to. By the way the Soviet Union was a country without a nationality, there is no such thing as a "Soviet" there is no "Soviet Language" or "Soviet Culture" it is completely invented, that is why the country broke apart. The Third Reich was also not a country, many of those nationalities labored for Hitler either willingly or not so willingly, there is not much loyalty toward the old Hitler Regime.

It's the second largest holiday and people love it and feel pride about the victory, the red army and the ideals of those days. The poorer parts of Central Asia just miss the cash from Moscow. Victory day used to happen in Ukraine too, but apparently this year they did some kind of anti-victory day instead, celebrating the nazi invasion in the West of Ukraine. I think the Baltic states have some alternative celenration, not the traditional, and I don't know about Turkmenistan.

You are such a hater, calling everyone you don't like a Nazi. What has Ukrainians ever done to you?

Remember that you are talking about an area you never visited, where you don't know the language and you ought to be smart enough to realise you are being served propaganda. Please don't talk like you are experts, it just make you look like pretentious fools.

Ditto for you.

I am not saying that Russia is perfect, just that in this situation, Russia didn't start anything, the West sponsored an ousting of a democratically elected president.

They had another election and a candymaker became President and now Putin is trying to get rid of him, so who's trying to overthrow democracy now?

Half the country didn't like it, or at least preferred to wait to the next election. Their language was banned and they were bullied, so they thought, "In that case, we'll also rise up". And suddenly all that was Russia's fault.

Russians are great whiners, "they keep on complaining about being oppressed by little countries and they keep on gobbling them up and getting bigger. Oh poor poor Russia, they are the biggest country in the World territorial wise, and yet they keep on getting picked on by those little countries and so they have no choice but to gobble them up!" Now what sounds like Propaganda to you? Some big guy being picked on by little Munchkins in Munchkinland and needing to kick them around and beat them up in self-defense?

Practically everybody in Russia wants Putin to go in and help them out, Putin is showing extreme restraint, doing essentially nothing, totally against public opinion.
Probably he's thinking "let the West see what happens when they meddle in things they don't understand". Or he genuinely thinks the whole area is more trouble than it's worth - cruel and heartless if you ask me.

Yeah, why don't he pick on some little guys, heck why don't he invade the United States, do you think the Russians would support that. I remember a movie where the Russians invaded Alaska and hijacked the Alaskan Oil Pipeline.

Meanwhile regular people in Eastern Ukraine and in Russia are waiting for Russia to step in and bail out these people who have now got themselves into a cul-de-sac they can't really get out of. Future citizenship in Ukraine will just not be possible after this, so Lord knows what happens.

All because the US and EU wanted their own man in Kiev and jumped on a small protest, turning a tiny flame into a revolution.
Hope they'll think twice next time. One can only dream.

Look what a "success" the intervention in Libya, Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan turned out to be. Don't you really admire the USA....

Tom Kalbfus, stop wasting your time trying to provoke me with French anecdotes, I am not French. "martienne" is just a French word that means "Martian female". English lacks a word that contains both meanings, so I chose the French word for my user name, that's the only connection. I thought it was kind of obvious, but apparently not.

martienne

Member

From: EU

Registered: 2014-03-29

Posts: 146

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

ditto for you

Do you think I'd bother arguing about this if I didn't have a connection to the area? It concerns me that people are so incredibly misinformed and prejudiced.
I have family in Odessa (look it up on the map) and have visited present day Ukraine many times throughout my life. I mentioned it in the thread several times before.
I am a citizen of Belarus although I don't live there - had to switch Soviet nationality for something, or lose it, so that's what my dad thought made the most sense at the time.

Edit: With that in mind please also stop accusing me of being Russian - I have no loyalties to Putin or Russia, and although I am no stooge for Belarus, it so happens that Belarus didn't comment yet, on events in Ukraine, and is not siding with anyone. Belarus if anyone knows Western propaganda for what it is though, and while hardly anyone in BY would like annexation to Russia for themselves, or set a precedence, they can sympathise that the people in Donbass have been shortchanged, and why they would want Russian annexation in light of their predicament. I obviously speak Russian although I'd say that nowadays I'm better at a couple of other languages.

How many 50-year olds want to shoot their children an go back to an econo ic system which didn't work and which caused the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Shoot their children - what are you talking about ?
All those who were better off in the USSR, which is most of Central Asia, large parts of rural Russia, and some parts of Ukraine and Belarus would rather go back.

Here is a video of Victory day in Almaty in Kazakhstan with some English explanations. Do they look like they hate the USSR? Quite enough hammers & sickles, St George ribbons and Soviet songs?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ci7lrHcRF8U  I read the state wants to tone the Soviet theme down a bit but the people want it. Same in Belarus, it's absolutely most people's favourite holiday celebrating Soviet victory.
The breakup of the Soviet Union is not really part of this topic, but today, a lot of people would say it was a huge mistake, and that the whole process was very strongly manipulated from abroad. Personally I have only good memories of it and the same goes for most people alive today. However US propaganda would have you believe that the whole period was like the very worst stretch of the worst times for those that Stalin picked on. That was a fraction of the population and it was a very long time ago. I agree though, that there were huge issues with productivity and management of the economy. That's what should have been fixed, not splitting the country and selling it to the highest bidder for peanuts, which is what happened. Followed by a number of unnecessary wars between people who previously lived in peacefully together.

Last edited by martienne (2014-06-18 06:54:30)

Tom Kalbfus

Banned

Registered: 2006-08-16

Posts: 4,401

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

ditto for you

Do you think I'd bother arguing about this if I didn't have a connection to the area? It concerns me that people are so incredibly misinformed and prejudiced.
I have family in Odessa (look it up on the map) and have visited present day Ukraine many times throughout my life. I mentioned it in the thread several times before.
Other people have family in Western Ukraine. Too bad your Russian nationality comes at the expense of other people's nationality, otherwise you might get along.
I am a citizen of Belarus although I don't live there - had to switch Soviet nationality for something, or lose it, so that's what my dad thought made the most sense at the time.

Do you speak Soviet? I've never heard not seen the Soviet Language, and where were the Soviets before 1914? They existed only in the minds of Karl Marx, and Lenin.

Edit: With that in mind please also stop accusing me of being Russian - I have no loyalties to Putin or Russia, and although I am no stooge for Belarus, it so happens that Belarus didn't comment yet, on events in Ukraine, and is not siding with anyone. Belarus if anyone knows Western propaganda for what it is though, and while hardly anyone in BY would like annexation to Russia for themselves, or set a precedence, they can sympathise that the people in Donbass have been shortchanged, and why they would want Russian annexation in light of their predicament. I obviously speak Russian although I'd say that nowadays I'm better at a couple of other languages.

martienne

Member

From: EU

Registered: 2014-03-29

Posts: 146

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

Do you speak Soviet? I've never heard not seen the Soviet Language, and where were the Soviets before 1914? They existed only in the minds of Karl Marx, and Lenin.

What in high heavens are you on about? Tom, honestly you sound like you are in some kind of little Cold War, McCarthy parallel universe of your own.
For the information of others Soviet is just a word in Russian that means "Advice". Because in the early days of the revolution, the bolsheviks formed advisory committes.

I speak Russian and no other language of the ex USSR. It was the common language of the USSR, and the other republics and peoples had their languages and spoke Russian as a second language. Same as in Europe today with English. Some older people couldn't speak Russian, or spoke it poorly. Many ex Soviet republics have a dilemma today, because they want to push their traditional language, for understandable reasons.

But in many cases people either don't know it, or they prefer Russian for a number of reasons. In Belarus they gave up trying, in Kazakhstan it's supposedly bilingual, but in reality Russian is much more common. In Ukraine, Russian is definitely the language you hear on the street in the bigger cities. On TV they try to speak Ukrainian but a lot of people simply don't know it well enough and are forced to respond in Russian. When Julia Timoshenko wanted to launch herself as a Ukrainian nationalist, in addition to the braid, she also had to take a course in Ukrainian since she didn't know it.

That's actually one of the reasons they are pushing Ukrainian language so hard in Ukraine, just to ensure it survives. The maps from the magazines are misleading. It's only spoken in the centre and West of the country, and half the time is badly mixed with Russian.

The Baltic states have laws that anyone working for the state must know the local language, and for most jobs, it's a requirement too. In Latvia they have a special langauge police that fines people who speak Russian at work, when they should speak Latvian. It's totally ridiculous, since a lot of older people there, simply can't speak Latvian which is a notoriously difficult language to learn, despite the fact that they were born in Latvia. My dad was born there, and he cannot speak Latvian, although he speaks several other languages.

The Baltic states are the only countries in Europe where there is open language discrimination of a minority - under normal circumstances Brussels would be up in arms about it, but since the people in question are Russian speakers, it's apparently fine to discriminate against them. 40 % of the population in Latvia and most of the population in the capital are native Russian speakers. But the language is banned from public life.

Last edited by martienne (2014-06-18 07:54:35)

Tom Kalbfus

Banned

Registered: 2006-08-16

Posts: 4,401

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

Do you speak Soviet? I've never heard not seen the Soviet Language, and where were the Soviets before 1914? They existed only in the minds of Karl Marx, and Lenin.

What in high heavens are you on about? Tom, honestly you sound like you are in some kind of little Cold War, McCarthy parallel universe of your own.
For the information of others Soviet is just a word in Russian that means "Advice". Because in the early days of the revolution, the bolsheviks formed advisory committes.

I speak Russian and no other language of the ex USSR. It was the common language of the USSR, and the other republics and peoples had their languages and spoke Russian as a second language. Same as in Europe today with English. Some older people couldn't speak Russian, or spoke it poorly. Many ex Soviet republics have a dilemma today, because they want to push their traditional language, for understandable reasons.

But in many cases people either don't know it, or they prefer Russian for a number of reasons. In Belarus they gave up trying, in Kazakhstan it's supposedly bilingual, but in reality Russian is much more common. In Ukraine, Russian is definitely the language you hear on the street in the bigger cities. On TV they try to speak Ukrainian but a lot of people simply don't know it well enough and are forced to respond in Russian. When Julia Timoshenko wanted to launch herself as a Ukrainian nationalist, in addition to the braid, she also had to take a course in Ukrainian since she didn't know it.

That's actually one of the reasons they are pushing Ukrainian language so hard in Ukraine, just to ensure it survives. The maps from the magazines are misleading. It's only spoken in the centre and West of the country, and half the time is badly mixed with Russian.

So if you understand it, why do you want to crush them. I see Russian isn't your only language as here you are using English. Do you think Ukrainian is harder to learn than English? To give you another example. There is the modern state of Israel, most of who's members had to learn to speak Hebrew. Hebrew was an ancient language spoken in temples before it was resurrected as a modern language for a modern nation, most Jews before that spoke Hebrew in religious services plus the language of the country they grew up in, much as in those Latin Masses that used to predominate in Catholic Churches. Since no one wanted to resurrect the Roman Empire no one has spoken Latin as their first language in a long time, Hebrew on the other hand is the first language for many people, as Israel has been around since 1949. So Ukraine is trying to bring back an old language same as the Israelis did when their nation was founded. Even when the Soviet Union was around, it was a one-dimensional superpower, it was a super power because it had nuclear weapons plus a huge army, but it couldn't compete with the United States or Japan in the economic sphere. The Russians made a huge sacrifice in their standard of living to have a first class military, they focused on diverting resources to their military and neglected their civilian economy, lots of Russians didn't have cars for instance, they shared telephones with neighbors because not everyone had one, and the economy couldn't provide them with one as funding the military took priority over civilian needs. The Soviets spend their entire existence preparing for the next war, and it never came, that is why the Soviet Union fell apart. the Soviet Union did share one thing in common with the United States, like the United States, the Soviet Union was a country founding on ideas and principles rather than an ethnic identity that went back for centuries as is the case for most European countries, the main difference was that Soviet Ideas upon which the Soviet Union was founded on just didn't work, while America's ideas did, that is why our history is 238 years long, and the Soviet Union died at age 73, about the average lifespan of a typical human being.

I believe the United States will be around a while longer, it will witness the rise and fall of many more empires and revolutions around it, each one, including the Soviets thought they would witness the last days of the United States of America. The USA outlasted Napoleon's Empire, it outlasted the Third Reich, it outlived the British Empire, and the Soviet Union, that is because the USA is built on a solid foundation, the US Constitution.

Last edited by Tom Kalbfus (2014-06-18 08:06:06)

martienne

Member

From: EU

Registered: 2014-03-29

Posts: 146

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

United States of America. The USA outlasted Napoleon's Empire, it outlasted the Third Reich, it outlived the British Empire, and the Soviet Union, that is because the USA is built on a solid foundation, the US Constitution.

Oh thank you for reminding me what an "ancient" empire the USA is. Here I was thinking it was barely over 200 years. Romans, Chinese and Greek, eat your hearts out. But wait - I once lived in a building that is older than this ancient country. ROFL.   (Come back again in 500 years and maybe somebody will take you seriously).

I don't mean to tease you, but you are practically asking for it.

And please use paragraphs! I never read posts that are just a large block of text.

As for whether or not people had telephones, in the cities they certainly did from the 60s and onwards. It's not the ultimate indicator of quality of life either for that matter. People did not live in luxury back then, but they had stability, their jobs and houses were theirs as long as they wanted it. They had a month of paid holiday from the 60s and onwards. It was enough for most people, and more than many have today. There was no consumption extravaganza, but stuff you might need was available if you looked for it.

Living conditions in the USSR was only bad if you compared it with the lives of Americans at the same period, and that was the big mistake people started doing. Russia at the time of the revolution was incredibly backwards, miles behind the US. It was then destroyed in WW2 which didn't even touch the US.
Living conditions in the USSR were much better than most the planet, and the workers generally had better conditions than in many Western European countries during the same period. Besides, I see on TV that there are some very backwards corners in the USA where I'd be very surprised if they had telephones in the 1970s.

That's enough from me today. Take it or leave it people; if you want to drink the "kool-aid" be my guest, it's your own loss at the end of the day.

Last edited by martienne (2014-06-18 08:51:03)

JoshNH4H

Member

From: Pullman, WA

Registered: 2007-07-15

Posts: 2,564

Website

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

I remember one time Tom was talking about how Obama was trying to destroy the space program by ending Constellation and replacing it with a more market-based approach, because (paraphrasing him) Obama is a socialist Indonesian Kenyan Muslim traitor fascist dictator who appeases our enemies.  Suspicious, I dug through his older posts and found one from a few months prior where he not only used the same fiery rhetoric to propose exactly the same thing, he actually went further and suggested that even the provision of air inside a colony ought to be privatized.  And he did all this while lambasting Obama as a socialist for supporting a government space program.

Upon being confronted with this evident contradiction, Tom made himself scarce from the thread.

So please, don't be upset with him for insulting Russia.  He has no idea what he's talking about.  The US has its war hawks, of course, but nobody who matters thinks like he does.

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-Josh

Tom Kalbfus

Banned

Registered: 2006-08-16

Posts: 4,401

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

United States of America. The USA outlasted Napoleon's Empire, it outlasted the Third Reich, it outlived the British Empire, and the Soviet Union, that is because the USA is built on a solid foundation, the US Constitution.

Oh thank you for reminding me what an "ancient" empire the USA is. Here I was thinking it was barely over 200 years. Romans, Chinese and Greek, eat your hearts out. But wait - I once lived in a building that is older than this ancient country. ROFL.   (Come back again in 500 years and maybe somebody will take you seriously).

I don't mean to tease you, but you are practically asking for it.

And please use paragraphs! I never read posts that are just a large block of text.

As for whether or not people had telephones, in the cities they certainly did from the 60s and onwards. It's not the ultimate indicator of quality of life either for that matter. People did not live in luxury back then, but they had stability, their jobs and houses were theirs as long as they wanted it. They had a month of paid holiday from the 60s and onwards. It was enough for most people, and more than many have today. There was no consumption extravaganza, but stuff you might need was available if you looked for it.

Living conditions in the USSR was only bad if you compared it with the lives of Americans at the same period, and that was the big mistake people started doing. Russia at the time of the revolution was incredibly backwards, miles behind the US. It was then destroyed in WW2 which didn't even touch the US.
Living conditions in the USSR were much better than most the planet, and the workers generally had better conditions than in many Western European countries during the same period. Besides, I see on TV that there are some very backwards corners in the USA where I'd be very surprised if they had telephones in the 1970s.

That's enough from me today. Take it or leave it people; if you want to drink the "kool-aid" be my guest, it's your own loss at the end of the day.

In The USSR you had bragging rights for winning the Vietnam War, Overthrowing the Chinese government and replacingit with Chairman Mao, and of course there was the Cuban Revolution in 1959, you could brag about how great the Soviet Military was and how great the KGB, then you went back home to your drab apartments with no microwave oven, shared facilities such as bathrooms, if you lucky maybe one person on your block owned a car. the reasons the USSR existed was so you could serve the government, and in return the government gave you something to do and a food ration. That is how I see it.

Void

Member

Registered: 2011-12-29

Posts: 7,820

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

My opinion is that the older a culture is, without representative tradition, the harder it is to modify it to what we consider representative government.

We tollerated lots of shortcommings from our nearer neighbors, and with patience have seen many near cultures move in directions we favor.  Much of South America and Mexico and such are somewhat improved.

We ourselves, suffer from captive govenment entities like the FDA (Under strong influence from corporations), and other non-democratic government entities, and are going backwards to a degree ourselves.

I consider government to be any individual of collection of individuals that has the power to regulate how I live my life.  So elected officials are becomming less and less important.

Russia/Soviet Union is/was composed of a spectrum of types, Peoples even on the Baltic Sea, so newer cultures, (In fact that area at an early time in it's history was almost progressing similar to other Atlantic coast cultures, but then the eastern invasions set that back).  Some peoples are almost to the Middle East, which I think it is apparent are the ones having some of the worst problems with relegious and ethnic tollerances.  I can't explain to anyone in full what the roots of that are, so I fall back on the notion that their cultural foundations are very old, and updating is very hard for them.

Similarly, Russia should have some patience from us.  Crimea was a very special situation, where they could not afford to be muscled out of their military positions at this time.

As for the Ukraine, I am guessing the Putin wants as much influence there as is practicle and does not cause problems, but I think he most likely wants to settle for not much more than that.

But we are far apart as types, so it could turn out I don't understand.

But I would make the point that at one point Chile, obtained the sea coast from Bolivia, and Bolivia still wants it back, but still our interest is in encouraging both Chile and Bolivia to be more representative in their government methods.

Similarly, our interest is in representative government in all locations of Russia and Ukraine, within the limits of our properly used influence.  Who owns what is of a secondary importance.

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End

Terraformer

Member

From: The Fortunate Isles

Registered: 2007-08-27

Posts: 3,906

Website

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

But Tom, surely the Ukrainians are thieves, because they're using Soviet weapons that were paid for by other people? Surely they should give Russia back their weapons?

Last edited by Terraformer (2014-06-18 11:20:13)

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Use what is abundant and build to last

martienne

Member

From: EU

Registered: 2014-03-29

Posts: 146

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

Similarly, our interest is in representative government in all locations of Russia and Ukraine, within the limits of our properly used influence.  Who owns what is of a secondary importance.

I just want to point out that Ukraine HAD a democratically elected president, nobody is contesting the validity of the election he won. It was one year until the next election and this coup d'etat could never have happened without the coup makers from Western Ukraine being hand-held, sponsored, and cheered on by the US and the EU.

So he was democratically elected, only the Ukrainian majority hadn't elected a pro Western leader, so they ousted him.

It's the same symptom in the Palestine. Oh-so-lovely with democracy there, until the majority votes for Hamas. It's called hypocrisy to support a principle then suddenly pull back when things don't go your way.

Just listen to the Victoria Nuland and Catherine Ashton tapes if you are in any doubt at all. It was all plotted out and masterminded from Washington and London.

As for Russia, Putin is democratically elected, the republics in the federation have their own quite different governments with everything from near sharia, to communists and nationalists according to local preferences.

A lot of Russians think the democracy is a big hoax and have no interest in it whatsoever, just want somebody who can maintain peace, law and order and improve conditions. Putin ha succeeded quite well with that.

A comparison to this, would be that that the uK started meddling in Canadian politics. Say Canadians then elected a pro USA government that wanted a trade agreement with the US, dropping links to the Commonwealth or whatever. The UK then stirs up a coup d'etat, using any misfit, anti Ottawa Canadian, hails it as a big victory for democracy and forces Canada into a less favourable deal with with the Commonwealth. Anything American is rubbish and should be done away with soonest. Then parts of Canada were disgusted and turned away and felt "we don't want anything to do with this c---p" and we have a lot more in common with the USA than Britain. How dare they meddle with our country, our language and our democratically elected government. They occupied some gov't buildings in Vancouver, Winnipeg and Montreal, let's say.

Whereupon Ottawa sent troops and started bombing them and killing people. US people wanted to help Canadians but the US president wouldn't lift a finger.

This is, how this looks like from Russia's perspective, only WORSE.

Last edited by martienne (2014-06-18 11:52:49)

RobertDyck

Moderator

From: Winnipeg, Canada

Registered: 2002-08-20

Posts: 7,934

Website

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

But Tom, surely the Ukrainians are thieves, because they're using Soviet weapons that were paid for by other people? Surely they should give Russia back their weapons?

Are you being a troll? We don't need more trouble.

Ukraine made many of those weapons. And Ukraine paid a lot toward the Soviet economy. They aren't thieves.

Terraformer

Member

From: The Fortunate Isles

Registered: 2007-08-27

Posts: 3,906

Website

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

You *did* read the part where Tom claimed the rebels are thieves for using weapons that *they* paid for, right?

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Use what is abundant and build to last

Tom Kalbfus

Banned

Registered: 2006-08-16

Posts: 4,401

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-YIItUC04xc4/U … 9484_n.jpg

But Tom, surely the Ukrainians are thieves, because they're using Soviet weapons that were paid for by other people? Surely they should give Russia back their weapons?

faulty logic, since Ukraine was a part of the Soviet Union, the Soviet Union wasn't Russia, so therefore Russia has no claim to weapons produced by the Soviet Union that are outside Russian territory. If the Soviet Union build a factory that is now in the Ukraine, it is a Ukrainian factory now. Now Ukraine didn't break apart, there are pro-Russian rebels rebelling against Ukraine, but that doesn't give them the right to steal! Stealing is a criminal uncivilized act beneath the standards of a European country and should not be practiced.

Tom Kalbfus

Banned

Registered: 2006-08-16

Posts: 4,401

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

Similarly, our interest is in representative government in all locations of Russia and Ukraine, within the limits of our properly used influence.  Who owns what is of a secondary importance.

I just want to point out that Ukraine HAD a democratically elected president, nobody is contesting the validity of the election he won. It was one year until the next election and this coup d'etat could never have happened without the coup makers from Western Ukraine being hand-held, sponsored, and cheered on by the US and the EU.

Richard Nixon was democratically elected President of the United States as well, and he was impeached, so what gives Congress the right to remove a democratically elected President like Richard Nixon? Same right that gives the Ukrainian Parliament the right to impeach its President. So tell m, was the Impeachment of Richard Nixon  a Coup?

So he was democratically elected, only the Ukrainian majority hadn't elected a pro Western leader, so they ousted him.

It's the same symptom in the Palestine. Oh-so-lovely with democracy there, until the majority votes for Hamas. It's called hypocrisy to support a principle then suddenly pull back when things don't go your way.

Why would you support the Palestinians? They believe in God! I thought you were an atheist Soviet, didn't the founder of your country say that religion was the "opiates of the people"? Well it seems to me that the Palestinians certainly are on Opium with all the ways they put God in their government and laws, maybe they don't deserve a country if they refuse to keep religion and state separate, as they are violating other's religious beliefs.

Just listen to the Victoria Nuland and Catherine Ashton tapes if you are in any doubt at all. It was all plotted out and masterminded from Washington and London.

As for Russia, Putin is democratically elected, the republics in the federation have their own quite different governments with everything from near sharia, to communists and nationalists according to local preferences.

Is not Putin just as corrupt as Richard Nixon and so deserving of impeachment?

A lot of Russians think the democracy is a big hoax and have no interest in it whatsoever, just want somebody who can maintain peace, law and order and improve conditions. Putin ha succeeded quite well with that.

Well why didn't they say so? We could send David Petraeus over to govern Russia for them if they don't want democratic rule. After all he has experience governing Iraq, and has done a much better job of keeping the peace there than its current government. So what do you think, would Russia agree to be governed by an American General appointed by the President of the United States. You say they don't want democracy, so we can just give David Petraeus orders not to give them democracy and to govern Russia however he sees fit. I think he would do a better job that Putin, and like Putin he I accountable to nobody, so Russians will like that, and if governed by the United States, there would be no chance of a war between the United States and one of its appendages. By that definition David Petraeus would keep both peace an order, does that please you?

A comparison to this, would be that that the uK started meddling in Canadian politics. Say Canadians then elected a pro USA government that wanted a trade agreement with the US, dropping links to the Commonwealth or whatever. The UK then stirs up a coup d'etat, using any misfit, anti Ottawa Canadian, hails it as a big victory for democracy and forces Canada into a less favourable deal with with the Commonwealth.

UK could try but its military is no match for the United States of America, it wouldn't stick.

Anything American is rubbish and should be done away with soonest. Then parts of Canada were disgusted and turned away and felt "we don't want anything to do with this c---p" and we have a lot more in common with the USA than Britain. How dare they meddle with our country, our language and our democratically elected government. They occupied some gov't buildings in Vancouver, Winnipeg and Montreal, let's say.

Whereupon Ottawa sent troops and started bombing them and killing people. US people wanted to help Canadians but the US president wouldn't lift a finger.

This is, how this looks like from Russia's perspective, only WORSE.

More Americans own guns than Russian citizens, also unlike Russia, we can remove our Presidents, so we are not stuck with his bad policy.

Terraformer

Member

From: The Fortunate Isles

Registered: 2007-08-27

Posts: 3,906

Website

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

Except you accused the rebels of stealing weapons that they paid for in taxes...

Plus, if someone is trying to kill you, you have the right to use their own weapons against them. If you try to stab me, and I manage to acquire your knife, that is not stealing.

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Use what is abundant and build to last