The Martian Calender and Timekeeping

clark · 2002-10-10 08:49:16

I do not advocate 'repression' of any religious traditions at all.

I don't belive you do as well. However, what you are setting up will lead to some sort of repression.

I simply propose a "hands-off" attitude regarding religion within a Martian settlement or family of settlements.

The problem arisies with the issue of any change to the generaly accepted "calander". Religion is in part largely ritual. Ritual's are highly formalized affairs- go to a catholic wedding, burial, or mass and you can see. Some beliefs require that a person do certain rituals at certain times of the day- on certain days. By changing the calander, you neccessarily change their rituals. That's the problem.

I'm also not sure a democratic calander can be achieved either- our current one was created by decree.

Just as the U.S. Founding Fathers made certain that this country would have separation of church and state embodied in the Constitution, I propose the same for Mars.

Alright then, how do you establsih that the government has the RIGHT to create a calander by which we all must abide? Is it the governments job to decide what day it is, and how long that day is?

Even Christmas has become a 'secular' holiday over the past few decades in the U.S...considering the fact that it is mainly one big, long consumer-fest without which our economy would surely fail.

Christmas IS a secular holiday. Yeah, sure, Jesus was supposed to born on the 25th... however, if we look back we alos notice that Christmas falls around the same time of the Roman feasts (parties) of the time for Juno ( a god). Religion adapts, but more on that later.

Mars will probably be represented by a wide range of religious beliefs, as well as a large proportion of non-believers.

But what do you base this assumption on? Most of the world follows one religion or another. And of those who don't, they still have a general belief in god- consider it a religion of One. Scientists are not immune from belief- and people on Mars will not be either.

'Common' things such as these, that apply to the society as a whole...that's where we should leave religion behind in order to be fair to everyone.

Yeah, you leave all beliefs behind, SAVE ONE, the belief that there is no god, and there is no religion. You are choosing one belief over all others, instead of trying to incorporate all beliefs needs.

That's what I was referring to when I was talking about a 'secular' Mars...things of a public nature such as a common calender should be kept as secular as possible.

How do you establish that a calander is 'public'? Am i required to acknoledge that today is the 10th of October in the year of our lord two thousand and two? What if I don't? Should Mars, once establishing a state sanctioned calander, enforce the use by punishing those who choose not to follow it? If we are not required to follow it, what point is there in having the government create one?

I really don't think this is too much different than what is done here, now in the U.S.

i understand and applaud the goal- however, I think the means may be doing more harm than good.

For instance, Christmas on Mars will simply not be the same as on Earth...no
ham or turkey for instance. No Christmas trees. Few, if any, presents to give to one another. Get the idea?

Byron, come one, you're smarter than this (please don't take this as a jab ). Of course things will be different than a sterotypical american christmas- but christmas is celebrated in many different ways all around the world. The traditions adapt to the environment- look at Catholiscm in latin america, in africa, in Tibet, in china- all of these places have adapted religion and integrated their own customs- their previous beliefs- into the religion. Religion is not stagnat- if it was, it would go the way of all the dead languages becuase it would lose its relevancy. Religion will still thrive on Mars, and the environemnt there will shape the practice and traditions of the religions that go there.

That's why I made those comments earlier about people who do consider religious traditions an important part of their lives may do better to stay home, as there simply may not be the means to carry out those traditions on Mars as here on Earth.

But traditions are important to all humans- they provide a sense of order and balance. Even the act of not having any kind of tradition is a tradition in itself. The traditions will adapt, or they will be abandoned. Think of it like "tradition" evolution- the traditions that can thrive in the environment continue, the traditions that cannot, are abandoned- Catholism had many traditions that have now been abandoned becuase they can loner exsist in the new cultural environment.

If a religious person(s) is open-minded and willing to adapt to change, then I don't see any problems with religion on Mars...I really don't.

Okay, i understand your point, but it seems that you are equating, or belive that religious people are more prone to be close minded versus non religious people who are more prone to be open minded. The thing is, a "religious" person is someone who simply has made a decision to belive in something as true, which you or others consider to be false.

I think you are better off simply stating that any person who is willing to do what is neccessary to live on mars in a community, and not force or expect others to conform to their personal beliefs (as long as they don't infringe on rights blah blah blah).

As for the whole calander idea, wouldn't it be best to make a bunch of different systems and then let everyone decide which one they want to use? Which ever one is used the most becomes the defacto calander- the real neccessity of a calander is rendered meaningless on mars or in space- it's only function is for trade.

Josh Cryer · 2002-10-10 08:52:17

Oh, we could keep CPUs ?clocked? relative to Earth seconds, if we wanted to. But it doesn't matter, really. 500MHz on Earth (using Earth time) may be something like 513MHz on Mars (using Mars time).

CPUs themselves are independent of time. They are just on and off switches. BIOS's though, have clocks in them. And those would have to be modified accordingly, but it shouldn't be too big of a deal, in my opinion.

Once we get to Mars, we will be using clockless CPUs anyway.

Byron · 2002-10-10 09:27:20

Don't seconds need to stay seconds to allow computers to stay in sync?
The idea of tuning clocks to stretch a second so that a Martian day contains 86,400 seconds (60x60x24) is way cool, but could be quite dangerous. JPL, after all, lost a Mars probe due to English/metric confusion. Different measures for seconds will mean different CPU clock speeds which could mean big trouble IMHO.
I have thought about this calendar/clock stuff for Mars and my head hurts. I have no suggestions at all.
By the way, any predictions on whether settlers will use English measure or metric?

Gee...I haven't thought of that, Bill. The idea of having different 'seconds' for Earth and Mars really could cause a lot of screw-ups technology-wise. While I'm sure this wouldn't be an unsolvable problem, this is something that will need a lot of work. Nothing comes easy on Mars...ever... ???

As for settlers using metric or English...I definately say metric. It would be the epitomy of foolishness for Martian colonists to use an outdated, difficult system of measurement. If the settlers have any common sense at all, it'll be metric all the way on Mars.

And yes, I'm one of, like 2 or 3 percent of Americans who think that the U.S. should switch over to metric as quickly as possible...lol...

B

clark · 2002-10-10 09:31:54

Metric or English?

As long as they decide before they build the space ship.

Bill White · 2002-10-10 10:02:01

CPUs themselves are independent of time. They are just on and off switches. BIOS's though, have clocks in them. And those would have to be modified accordingly, but it shouldn't be too big of a deal, in my opinion.

In theory, I agree. Yet it shouldn't have been a big deal for JPL to keep straight that metric/English business either.

Don't misunderstand, stretching the second is the most elegant solution to the clock problem I have heard - I am just pointing out potential downsides.

Also, differing standards for the length of the second would be an obstacle for the inter-globalization of Earth and Mars. Do you think humans will be fighting the homogenization of the solar system into a monolithic culture and economy 500 years from now?

Byron · 2002-10-10 10:18:18

Gee, this board does funny things sometimes..it killed my post..good thing there's copy and paste...lol

Clark: I don't belive you do as well. However, what you are setting up will lead to some sort of repression.

And this is why I mentioned in my reponse to A.J. that I admit that my calender is likely unworkable in respect to keeping the weeks in sync...

Quote Clark:
The problem arisies with the issue of any change to the generaly accepted "calander". Religion is in part largely ritual. Ritual's are highly formalized affairs- go to a catholic wedding, burial, or mass and you can see. Some beliefs require that a person do certain rituals at certain times of the day- on certain days. By changing the calander, you neccessarily change their rituals. That's the problem.

I'm also not sure a democratic calander can be achieved either- our current one was created by decree.
end quote--

The problem is that Mars won't let us carry out certain rituals the same way they are carried out here on Earth. The Muslims and Jews depend on the cycles of the Moon to celebrate certain holidays..how will they do this on Mars? Martian calender or not, it's going to be difficult to do some of these things, which is why people will have to adapt.

If you think that people can't get together and come up with a common calender..what do you think will happen instead? What kind of calender do you think would work best on Mars? Or will Martians be forever be reduced to complicated conversions to Earth-based calenders and competing Martain calenders?

Quote Clark:
Alright then, how do you establsih that the government has the RIGHT to create a calander by which we all must abide? Is it the governments job to decide what day it is, and how long that day is?
end quote--

How do we establish that the government has the right to tax us for things that certain people decide that needs to be done for the common good? If the people on Mars decide that it would be best that a common authority come up with a standardized calender to be used for everyday business, etc, wouldn't that totally reasonable to think this is what will happen? It'd be no different than an authority deciding whether drugs should be legal, how much of common resources such as water and energy each person is allowed to consume, and all the other things you have mentioned in other threads that would be essential to survive on Mars. It is my opinion that whatever system is used for common use be fair to many people as possible, as well as being simple and easy to use, like the metric system. I've come to realize that making an interruption to the system of weeks is probably not a very good idea...but that still doesn't solve the overall problem that people's system of keeping time is going to be a bit different on Mars, and that adapting to any sort of Martian system, whatever it may be, may be difficult for many people.

Quote Clark:
'Common' things such as these, that apply to the society as a whole...that's where we should leave religion behind in order to be fair to everyone.

Yeah, you leave all beliefs behind, SAVE ONE, the belief that there is no god, and there is no religion. You are choosing one belief over all others, instead of trying to incorporate all beliefs needs
end quote--

I think I wasn't expressing myself clearly..as is often the case...and I probably shouldn't have made that statement. I was mainly referring to the arena of public institutions, such as the government. Those are the kind of things that need to be kept secular, but that does not preclude people from practicing their faith on a private basis...and that's the kind of system that should ensure harmony for everyone.

Quote Clark:
How do you establish that a calander is 'public'? Am i required to acknoledge that today is the 10th of October in the year of our lord two thousand and two? What if I don't? Should Mars, once establishing a state sanctioned calander, enforce the use by punishing those who choose not to follow it? If we are not required to follow it, what point is there in having the government create one?
end quote--

It's just like the system of common measurements...are we required by law to use the English system in the U.S.? We can use whatever we want, but since English is the 'standar' system in the U.S., that's what most people use. Same thing on Mars. If people don't like the new standard calender, who says there has to be laws to 'force' people to use it? If a calender is voted into existence, and a group of people absolutly hate it, what's to stop them from using the process of petition to seek a change in the calender? We seem to work things out for the most part in the U.S. and Europe...I don't see why this same kind of process can't work on Mars.

Quote Clark:
Okay, i understand your point, but it seems that you are equating, or belive that religious people are more prone to be close minded versus non religious people who are more prone to be open minded. The thing is, a "religious" person is someone who simply has made a decision to belive in something as true, which you or others consider to be false.
end quote--

I do think that religious people do tend to be close-minded...and I have been on the receiving end of that close-mindedness...so I do admit some of my previous posts have been tained with this sort of thinking. I do realized that religion can be open-minded and progressive as well...and if these are the traits that get carried over to Mars, I would be happy to see religion grow and adapt on Mars...as long as they don't repeat the dreadful mistakes they have made here on Earth.

Quote Clark:
As for the whole calander idea, wouldn't it be best to make a bunch of different systems and then let everyone decide which one they want to use? Which ever one is used the most becomes the defacto calander- the real neccessity of a calander is rendered meaningless on mars or in space- it's only function is for trade.
end quote--

Maybe this would be the best way to go...but I suspect that it would be a very messy process. If the idea of different seconds is bad, like the differing systems of measurements, having 50 different competing calenders out there might cause more than a few problems. And who knows how long it would take for the de facto calender to finally come into commmon use...

B
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clark · 2002-10-10 11:16:04

The Muslims and Jews depend on the cycles of the Moon to celebrate certain holidays..how will they do this on Mars?

Probably how they manage now- refer to their religious calander and see where the day falls on the Martian calander (whatever it may be). If they are able to observe it, they will, if they cannot, they need to decide what is a greater need- whatever prevents them from doing the ritual at the preordained time, or the ritual itself. Now, I realize that is what you are talking about- which is why i agree with your goal, just not how you go about establishing it.

What kind of calender do you think would work best on Mars?

Any kind of calander. Seriously though, a calander is a measurement tool- just like a thermometer or a ruler. A calnder simply measures "time". Measurement is a language to convey a specfic idea- usualy distance or amount- it works best when we all agree to the same language, there is less confusion, but the measurment system is arbitrary to begin with.

What is a day, and why? Why is an hour 60 minutes? Why do we decide on 24 hour intervals? Why not two or four or simply have 2 hours divided into 720 minutes?

So what would work best for mars will depend on what they need a calander for measuring for. Agriculture? Meaningless with a year round green house. Sunrise and sunset? Equally meaningless- people will be living in a machine- day and night will have no effect on when they are working or not working- the outside environment- which was the cause for why we have our current time system and calander is not a factor for Mars.

There will be a need to predict where Mars is in relation to earth- or when to expect the latest shipment- or when the next orbital insertion window will be available- but none of this requires a hard and fast calander- all of those require time amounts between launch windows- vectors, calulations based on speed and distance with the meaningful answers given in seconds. and the answer in seconds will be determined by the person perceiving (or asking the question). People on Mars won't care if something is launched on Sunday and arrives on tuesday- they need to know when it will arrive relative to THEM, which can be calculated by the interested party. If someone needs to get something to Mars by Mars-tuesday, then they need to figure it out when they would have to send something to reach there by then- the same way that I look at my watch and can figure out that it's 2AM somewhere else.

How do we establish that the government has the right to tax us for things that certain people decide that needs to be done for the common good?

Normally, there is a "reason". What reason is there for the government to create a calander?

If the people on Mars decide that it would be best that a common authority come up with a standardized calender to be used for everyday business, etc, wouldn't that totally reasonable to think this is what will happen?

I agree. However, I am asking what reason *could* they have? I see none.

It'd be no different than an authority deciding whether drugs should be legal, how much of common resources such as water and energy each person is allowed to consume, and all the other things you have mentioned in other threads that would be essential to survive on Mars.

But in all of those I sight a *reason* why such action would be neccessary. I don't belive a government has a right to do ANYTHING unless there is a clear and meaningful reason for it.

It's just like the system of common measurements...are we required by law to use the English system in the U.S.?

No. However, the government DOES educate all our children in its use. No need to belabor the point, just commenting.

If a calender is voted into existence, and a group of people absolutly hate it, what's to stop them from using the process of petition to seek a change in the calender?

I just don't see a clearly defined reason as to why the government should instutite a calander, especially if no one must use it. We perpetuate this idea that the government exsists solely to make laws or decide how we or what conditions we must live- I say NO. The government, any government, exsists solely to protect me from you, and you from me- and to do the things we tell it to do when there is a legitimate reason for it.

I do think that religious people do tend to be close-minded...and I have been on the receiving end of that close-mindedness...so I do admit some of my previous posts have been tained with this sort of thinking.

I belive most have had similar experiences. However, bigotry, in any form, should be avoided- especially by those who demonstrate the capability to think (as you have demonstrated ). Overgeneralizations is the first step towards being an unthininking bigot- you stop seeing individuals, and just see "groups". Case in point:

I do think that religious people do tend to be close-minded.

You create a group out of individuals here- you are grouping religious individuals as being more close-minded. You are creating a sterotype, however small which will dictate how you interact, understand, communicate, and perceive these individuals. Do you believe in god? Either way you anser, you have decided on a "truth"- are you closed minded for that? Are you closed minded for not listening to what others who hold different views have to say? I wouldn't neccessarily say so- you have a popint of view, that's it.

And who knows how long it would take for the de facto calender to finally come into commmon use...

Most things in life are messy and take a long time to work out...

Palomar · 2002-10-10 11:41:37

And if dates and days are so important that AJ wants to lynch Byron over them, why is Christmas day on December 25th and why is this the year 2002? There is apparently very strong evidence that Jesus was born in March of 4 BC!!

*Excellent post, Shaun!

As for Christmas: The original human celebration was the Winter Solstice; it was called "Yule" by some northern European tribes. The evergreen tree was the symbol of never-ending life. People would light logs afire and roll them down hills [the original Yule logs], in an attempt to coax the sun to "return." Of course, the celebrations were in focus on the return of lengthening days. People would wassail amongst the "dead" apple orchards, singing and drinking, in an attempt to get the trees to wake up soon and produce more fruit. Etc.

Father Christmas or Santa Claus was originally the Holly King. It was believed the Holly King died on Winter Solstice night, slain by his rival and twin, the Oak King...who was reborn at the stroke of midnight, and who would preside over nature's cycles until being slain by the Holly King at the Summer Solstice.

The legend of the Oak and Holly Kings [rival twins] can be traced back to ancient Greece, and even Sumeria. There was the "Serpent" [not an evil symbol; in that culture, serpents were considered wise...even Jesus once said, "Be ye wise as a serpent and gentle as a dove."] and the "Star Son"; and the more recent tale of the "robin and the wren".

The Church authorities established the celebration of Christ's birth close to the Winter Solstice, in order to encourage pagan converts. The rebirth of the sun [Winter Solstice]...the birth of the Son. Thus, many traditional pagan images were transferred to Christianity [trees, yule logs, green and red decorations, Father Christmas/Santa Claus], etc.

I've heard that Israel is very cold around the time of the Winter Solstice, and that no shepherd in his right mind would be out amongst the hills with sheep...they'd all be frost bitten. Thus, scholars believe Jesus Christ was likely born sometime in the Spring.

All of what I've written can be verified by scholarly sources.

--Cindy

Byron · 2002-10-10 11:47:14

As for Christmas: The original human celebration was the Winter Solstice; it was called "Yule" by some northern European tribes. The evergreen tree was the symbol of never-ending life. People would light logs afire and roll them down hills [the original Yule logs], in an attempt to coax the sun to "return." Of course, the celebrations were in focus on the return of lengthening days. People would wassail amongst the "dead" apple orchards, singing and drinking, in an attempt to get the trees to wake up soon and produce more fruit. Etc.
Father Christmas or Santa Claus was originally the Holly King. It was believed the Holly King died on Winter Solstice night, slain by his rival and twin, the Oak King...who was reborn at the stroke of midnight, and who would preside over nature's cycles until being slain by the Holly King at the Summer Solstice.
The legend of the Oak and Holly Kings can be traced back to ancient Greece, and even Sumeria. There was the "Serpent" [not an evil symbol; in that culture, serpents were considered wise...even Jesus once said, "Be ye wise as a serpent and gentle as a dove."] and the "Star Son"; and the more recent tale of the "robin and the wren".
The Church authorities established the celebration of Christ's birth close to the Winter Solstice, in order to encourage pagan converts. The rebirth of the sun [Winter Solstice]...the birth of the Son. Thus, many traditional pagan images were transferred to Christianity [trees, yule logs, green and red decorations, Father Christmas/Santa Claus], etc.
I've heard that Israel is very cold around the time of the Winter Solstice, and that no shepherd in his right mind would be out amongst the hills with sheep...they'd all be frost bitten. Thus, scholars believe Jesus Christ was likely born sometime in the Spring.
All of what I've written can be verified by scholarly sources.
--Cindy

Interesting stuff, Cindy...I knew that the birth of Christ was set to align with the winter solstice, but I had no idea about the Yule logs and orgin of Santa Claus...

B

Scott G. Beach · 2002-10-10 13:20:04

Each Martian settlement would probably have ordinances that are structurally similar to the following example.

Scott
****************

CALIFORNIA GOVERNMENT CODE SECTIONS 6800-6807

6800. The time in which any act provided by law is to be done is computed by excluding the first day, and including the last, unless the last day is a holiday, and then it is also excluded.

6801. Time is computed according to the Gregorian or new style; and January 1st, in every year, after 1752 is reckoned as the first day of the year.

6802. The years 1900, 2100, 2200, 2300, or any other future
hundredth year, of which the year 2000 is the first, except only
every fourth hundredth year, are not leap years, but common years of 365 days. The years 2000, 2400, 2800, and every other fourthhundredth year after 2000 and every fourth year, except as provided in this section, which, by usage in this State is considered a leap year, is a leap year consisting of 366 days.

6803. "Year" means a period of 365 days; "half year," 182 days; "quarter of a year," 91 days. The added day of a leap year, and the day immediately preceding, if they occur in any such period, shall be reckoned together as one day.

6804. "Month" means a calendar month, unless otherwise expressed.

6805. A week consists of seven consecutive days.

6806. A day is the period of time between any midnight and the midnight following.

6807. "Daytime" is the period of time between sunrise and sunset. "Nighttime" is the period of time between sunset and sunrise.

clark · 2002-10-10 13:34:15

Yet this is not a government sanctioned calander, this is the government defining the calander. This becomes important when instuting laws- when laws become effective, or lapse, or it is time for another one of those votey things.

There is nothing wrong with defining the vocabulary- after all, one person's day is another's night. Somewhere.

Thanks for the info Scott, I for one learned something new.

A.J.Armitage · 2002-10-10 16:44:47

Scott;

And do you suppose the people of California owe their calender to the state government?

Shaun Barrett · 2002-10-10 19:25:04

Thanks for the compliment, Cindy!

And thanks for the very interesting history lesson about the origins of the Yuletide celebration. Fascinating stuff!

The Church authorities established the celebration of Christ's birth close to the Winter Solstice, in order to encourage pagan converts.

This tends to support my contention that there was, in fact, quite a degree of 'fudging' in the establishment of sacred dates.
If these holy dates were established by humans and not actually by God Herself, then surely we don't need to be quite so particular about how we translate them into a new Martian calendar.

I think most of the comments I've read are supportive of 'my' Martian calendar, unless I'm misinterpreting them. The weeks would still be 7 days long, Monday to Sunday, northern spring would still be in March, April, May, and would correspond to a lengthening of the days just like on Earth, and Christmas would be towards the end of December, during the northern winter.
Former Australians, who would naturally tend to settle in the southern hemisphere(! ), would still celebrate their Christmases during high summer, just like home!!
The only real difference would be the strangeness of having so many days in each month, but we'd soon get used to that.

In the event that changing the length of a second would be problematic for computers (though I don't see why we couldn't overcome such difficulties), would it be unrealistic to go back to KSR's 39 minute 'dead-spot' in the middle of the night?
Yeh, you guessed it .... I'm still trying to get that little bit of extra shut-eye!!

Scott G. Beach · 2002-10-10 20:02:16

And do you suppose the people of California owe their calender to the state government?

Mr. Armitage:

I am not sure what you mean by "owe." The California statues form a legal foundation for state actions. For example, a person can obtain a motor vehicle drivers' license at 16 years of age, and this age is calculated pursuant to state law. The terms of insurance contracts, which provide coverage from a beginning time and date to an ending time and date, are usually based on the statutes for calculating time. However, a particular contract could specify that a different way of calculating time shall be used for the purposes of the contract.

Scott

Byron · 2002-10-11 05:52:29

This tends to support my contention that there was, in fact, quite a degree of 'fudging' in the establishment of sacred dates.
If these holy dates were established by humans and not actually by God Herself, then surely we don't need to be quite so particular about how we translate them into a new Martian calendar.
I think most of the comments I've read are supportive of 'my' Martian calendar, unless I'm misinterpreting them. The weeks would still be 7 days long, Monday to Sunday, northern spring would still be in March, April, May, and would correspond to a lengthening of the days just like on Earth, and Christmas would be towards the end of December, during the northern winter.
Former Australians, who would naturally tend to settle in the southern hemisphere(! ), would still celebrate their Christmases during high summer, just like home!!
The only real difference would be the strangeness of having so many days in each month, but we'd soon get used to that.
In the event that changing the length of a second would be problematic for computers (though I don't see why we couldn't overcome such difficulties), would it be unrealistic to go back to KSR's 39 minute 'dead-spot' in the middle of the night?
Yeh, you guessed it .... I'm still trying to get that little bit of extra shut-eye!!

Hey Shaun,

I don't have any problems with your calender...it seems to make more sense than many other m-calenders I've seen on the web..

The thing about setting a Martian Christmas once every m-year, however, might not go over too well with the settlers, as I'm certain they would want to celebrate it at the same time Earth does...at least that's my personal opinion. Same thing with the other religious holidays as well...as people will want to have that common connection with those on Earth.

However, I think that there will be new holidays, traditions, etc, that will be uniquely Martian, like the date of First Landing...which I think will be apart from the date of the Martian New Year (which will probably be tied to the date of one of the equinoxes). Other days holidays they might celebrate are aphelion and perihelion, and other things such as the date of first discovery of life on Mars (assuming it ever happens).

As for the length of the second...after giving it some thought, I think the Earth second will be kept as the "standard" second to be used in computers, standardized chronometers, etc, and the m-second will be used strictly for local Martian timekeeping. It shouldn't be too difficult to create time converting software to keep track of Earth time with that of Mars...just like having the Earth and Mars calenders running side-by-side. As for KSR's timeslip, the idea of having 39 extra minutes each night does sound appealing...but having the Martian day divided up into unequal aparts would surely cause more confusion than people would care to deal with. All is not lost on the sleep front, however...as the typical 8-hr sleep period will be approx 13 minutes longer than here on Earth, and that will leave 26 more minutes to get things done during the course of the day as well.

Having the longer day will be quite beneficial, I think, even beyond the practical aspects of having more time per day. For some reason, (I have no idea why) it's usually easier for a person to adjust to gaining time, like traveling westbound into other time zones, or changing from summer time to standard time, as opposed to traveling eastbound, as it's usually more difficult to adjust to the temporarily 'shorter' day. It's almost as if our biological clocks are seeking a longer 'natural' day. Good thing Mars doesn't have a 21 or 22 hour day...we could still use that as our daily cycle, I imagine, but it'd be tough to deal with.

Anyone else have any comments on this?

Clark...

I agree with you in that people will likely go by the Earth calender when it comes to observances, etc..as that's what seems to make the most sense, and it will provide that all-important connection with the homeworld...

So what would work best for mars will depend on what they need a calander for measuring for. Agriculture? Meaningless with a year round green house. Sunrise and sunset? Equally meaningless- people will be living in a machine- day and night will have no effect on when they are working or not working- the outside environment- which was the cause for why we have our current time system and calander is not a factor for Mars.

I have to disagree with this statement, as I think the days and nights, as well as the seasons will be important 'markers' to go by on Mars. It may not be the same as here on Earth, but the permanent settlers will likely depend on natural sunlight (domes, glass roofs, etc.) for daytime activities, and it will be important to keep the human sleep / wake cycle in sync with the Martian sol, especially since it will likely provide a psychological boost to humans (see above.) I just don't see how people will be able to live out their lives completely cut off from the cycles of the seasons, either...the sun on Mars shifts from north to south and back to north again every year just like on Earth (except it will occur every 23 months,) and this is one of the things that will provide a yearly rhythm for people to go by...again this is one of those pyschological things that will prove more important than most people realize.

You mention there is no need to create a standardized Martian calender....I think there will be a need, even if it's something as bland and simple as having a straight sol count and the year...(sol 133, m-year 4, etc.) If people are using the Martian sol as the basis for their 'day,' there will certainly be a need to have a 'common' marker to avoid the type of confusion like the mistake of English / metric measurements with the Polar Lander. If the base unit of a day (sol) is agreed upon by the settlers (I really don't see why they wouldn't), then there needs to be some sort of common calender to keep track of them...something that is standardized for logistic purposes, like crop schedules, ship arrivals, etc.

You say there is a no reason for a government to create a calender...that may be true here on Earth, as we already have calenders that we are 'happy' with..but when it comes to something new, like settling Mars...I think there has to be some sort of common standard put into place to avoid confusion. As you very well know, confusion may not be a big deal on Earth, but on Mars, it could mean the difference between life and death. Like I said before...it may be something as simple as a straight count..and this is probably what will happen in the early days, and individuals would be able to keep track of the Earth calender as they see fit.

Most things in life are messy and take a long time to work out...

As much I hate it, you're absolutely right...as this whole calender business so aptly proves..

B

clark · 2002-10-11 09:00:13

It may not be the same as here on Earth, but the permanent settlers will likely depend on natural sunlight (domes, glass roofs, etc.) for daytime activities, and it will be important to keep the human sleep / wake cycle in sync with the Martian sol, especially since it will likely provide a psychological boost to humans (see above.)

What you are saying makes sense, I can understand it. However, (always the 'but' ), my way of thinking is that the people on Mars will be traveling for several months to get there- all without a sunset or a sunrise. By and large, people will be doing all of their work inside- either in a rover or in a hab. This means artifical lighting. Ever been to Vegas? If not, go into a hotel at 3AM- those who have experienced this may understand. The whole issue of daytime and nightime becomes less of a consideration when we are in an enclosed environment providing our own light. A base on mars, I am of course assuming, would probably be manned 24.5/7 (whatever the m-second/calander says)- but in this instance there is no need for graveyard, daytime, evening shifts- everyone would simply have their "working" hours and their "non-working" hours.

Think of life aboard a submarine. No outside light- does it matter if it's 2AM or 2PM? It only matters if your internal clock is attuned to a natural day- but living on a submarine, there is no natural day- there is only consistent lighting at all times.

You mention there is no need to create a standardized Martian calender....I think there will be a need, even if it's something as bland and simple as having a straight sol count and the year

I'll clarify, there is no need for a government to standardize a calander.

You say there is a no reason for a government to create a calender...that may be true here on Earth, as we already have calenders that we are 'happy' with..but when it comes to something new, like settling Mars...I think there has to be some sort of common standard put into place to avoid confusion.

What confusion would result from NOT having a standardized calander for Mars?

Part of the problem is that there is no need for a martian calander until there is "something" on mars specifically that requires a martian calander- almost everything that mars will need, or celebrate will be in terms of Earth, not mars, becuase of a lack of any cultrualy significat dates. Yeah, first landing is good- and even a new year- but none of that really neccessiates a calander for mars.

Looking at the numbers, I might suggest that a calander (please exscuse me if this has already been proposed) with 11 months, consisting of 9 weeks, 7 days long. That works out to 63 days months- with 4 days left over.... which could be inserted between New Mars years (think 4 day holiday) where it is a 4 day week unto itself. Or, simply deposit an extra day at the end of Month 1, Month 4, Month 7, and then Month 10 (this uses a mathmatical formula that will help people remember which month should have the extra days.

just a thought. [shrug]

Every martian year is equal to two earth years minus 29 days. So every martian year moves all holidays and religious observence dates back 33 days from their previous position.

Nirgal82 · 2002-10-11 11:16:26

I agree with you byron, that religious observerances of holidays should be in-syncronization with Earth. It would be more orthodox, in my humble opinion. (even though it doesn't matter what my opinion is, eh AJ {; )...)
Even though, according to Cindy's description, it seems the placement of religious holidays, especially Christian holidays, seems to have been placed arbitrarily in order to influence people into conversion.
Anywho, I'm sure little Martians christians would like 2 christmases (spelling?) an M-year
Perhaps I went too far in saying that sabbath's should be recognized according to when it happens on Earth, but perhaps this is indeed more trouble than it is worth, might as well have the sabbaths according to Martian weeks, and holidays according to when they happen on Earth.
Personally I would like to see calendar months having the same number of days each, but I'm sure this isn't possible.

Your friendly neighborhood Martian...
-Matt

clark · 2002-10-11 11:59:15

Here is another idea, just throwing is out there:

A M-calander consisiting of 23 months. Months 3, 6, 9, 12, 15,18, & 21 all have 31 days, all other months consist of 30 days. This should equal 697 days ( a full martian year).

With this calnder though, every martian year will end up being off by 32 days, every 2 earth years. However, every 12 martian years (and every 23 Earth years), the calanders should reset back to the same starting dates.

Byron · 2002-10-11 12:30:34

clark:
What confusion would result from NOT having a standardized calander for Mars?

All kinds of confusion. A standard calender is needed to figure out work schedules, exploratory missions, preparing for the seasonal variation in temperature (esp. in the southern hemisphere), planning any sort of common activity (of which there will be many), etc, etc.

I do see what you're saying about the 24/7 'submarine' type of enviroment..perhaps this will be true in the early, exploratory stages of humans-on-Mars, however, I still think that the early Martian's schedules will still be tied to the length of the Martian sol. People will need to know the local time of sunset, for instance, so they don't get caught out in the open after dark in a rover. It will be useful to know how many sols it will be to the next solstice, perhelion, etc, to plan sunlight-based activities. (I just don't see people living in a permanent artificial environment wholly dependent on artificial lighting a la Las Vegas...being exposed to natural sunlight will be an important psyschological component of being on Mars...especially after 6 months of traveling through space.) Lastly, especially after people have been living on Mars for a while, I'm sure the Martians would prefer to have a common calender of their own, as part of their Martian idenity, one that would hopefully be created by consensus...although I'd have to admit that process might take a 100 years or so..

which could be inserted between New Mars years (think 4 day holiday) where it is a 4 day week unto itself.

You mean like my Year End Days? I suggest you take cover immediately...

B

KaseiII · 2003-01-18 06:51:36

This may seem dumb but - what was wrong with the Zubrin Areogator Calendar (Case for Mars), it seemed more or less adequate - except he said 8 M-Years = 15 Terran Years, but if that adds up to Mars having the equivalent of 684 terran days per year, when it should have the equivalent of 687.

Also, mare year is 668.6 days long - so how would you work out the leap year factor.

I think a 24 month year or more-or-less equal length would be easier tocope with, though, than the fluctuating month lengths of Zubrin (longest month 66 and shortest 46, that is a bit extreme. ???

But some people are saying starting the Calendar (MY 0) from the moment you land, but it isn't likely you are going to land on the vernal equinox is it, and the vernal equinox is the generally accepted beginning of the Martian Year, right?

So I say, you find out when the next Vernal equinox is, and sart from there. Or start from the Vernal equinox like Zubrin did in 1961, which may be easier, if you can find out when it is, because does it not seem more that a coincidence that it started on January 1st, so someone should find out at least when a definate Vernal Equinos from Mars is/was and work it from that..........ok that was ramblings but you get the point.

Also start from Year one (and use roman numberals for a while anyway, like the French did in their revolution calendar).
We don't need year 0, just go from -1 to 1.

And doesn't a ten day week seem more practical than a seven day week? Perhaps 22 months of thirty days (3 weeks) and a last week of holidays which is 8/9 days long.
(Though I do prefer either a 12 or 24 month year, so the ten day week may be more practical being used with the Zubrin system.)

Tell me what you think. Ok.

Shaun Barrett · 2003-02-10 03:55:04

I'm not all that happy about making the vernal equinox the beginning of the year. Especially if you have 12 months in the year (and make them longer), and especially if you call them by the same names as Earth months.
I think it would be better to start the year just after the northern winter solstice - the equivalent of January 1st on Earth. At least this way northern spring will begin in April and autumn in October.
Eventually, when Mars is terraformed and we're not all living in constantly artificial indoor environments, it will be important to have the familiarity of seasons falling in the appropriate months.
I guess I'm biased and maybe too geocentric, but I still like the system I outlined on page three of this thread.

Josh Cryer · 2003-02-10 09:17:39

Yeah Shaun, I like your idea. Altohough, about the leap day. I think we have leap days on Earth because our days aren't exactly 24 hours, they're like 23.8 hours. So if we'd adopt your idea, we would have to have drop days or something. And we'd probably need to have more than 1...

I think Zubrin has it thought out very well, to be honest, but now that KaseiII points it out, the months do seem a bit off. Perhaps that can be tweaked a little (I'm not sure why Zubrin went for those particular day counts).

Euler · 2003-02-10 17:05:11

The Earth rotates about once every 23.8 hours. This means that the stars will be in the same position with respect to the Earth every 23.8 hours. However, the Earth is also going around the sun, so the Earth has the same position with respect to the sun every 24 hours. The system was designed so that the length of rotation with respect to the sun is exactly 24 hours, so leap days are not necessary.

A couple of years ago, there was an extra second added to the length of a day. This was because the Earth is not rotating as fast as it used to. The rotational energy of the Earth is gradually being transferred to the moon though gravitational interactions, thus slowing down the earth's rotation. That means that the Earth is now taking slightly more than 24 hours to rotate with respect to the sun, so more extra second will have to be added to days in the future to keep our clocks and the Earth in sync.

A.J.Armitage · 2003-04-13 14:34:18

KaseiII;

But some people are saying starting the Calendar (MY 0) from the moment you land, but it isn't likely you are going to land on the vernal equinox is it, and the vernal equinox is the generally accepted beginning of the Martian Year, right?

People thought Jesus was born on Dec. 25, 1 (He wasn't, of course, but that's what people thought), and December 25 is a long time after January 1. So why not the same on Mars?

Also start from Year one (and use roman numberals for a while anyway, like the French did in their revolution calendar).
We don't need year 0, just go from -1 to 1.

Why start with 1 instead of 0? And why bother with Roman numerals when regular ones are so much easier?

And doesn't a ten day week seem more practical than a seven day week?

No, it seems very impractical.

soph · 2003-04-13 15:20:17

Why not a five day week?

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