Caspia

Tom Kalbfus · 2014-06-02 10:41:27

Void wrote:

That wasn't nice
Panicking about the Oceans rising is just silly, it is not the same thing as a tidal wave or a flood. A rising ocean level is gradual, people will have plenty of time to move. So engineering the Earth to preserve old structures is just plain silly.
Really, measure the board, then cut it.
Karovs issue is he wants to create Caspia. It is interesting, because it is a notion to teraform Earth. If it has value I guess it could be considered, but I think Karov just likes to exercise his imagination and other skills.
I am not panicking. I live quite far above the water line in fact.
After taking proper measurements, it may be decided that "engineering the Earth to preserve old structures is just plain silly" or not. One interesting point is that the Dutch might be interested in helping the Caspian nations do that engineering. And I would not necessarily dismiss the notion that New York City and other such places might be willing to help finance and engineer such a project, to protect their own interests.

New York city has a lot of skyscrapers, why not just engineer those so the bottom ends of those can sit in water? I mean this would involve rewiring the structures and redoing the plumbing, but the upper floors can stay high and dry and Manhattan can become a modern day Venice. What's wrong with having canals instead of streets?

Void · 2014-06-02 11:44:15

This is only a conversation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pl … _sea_level

Actually the bigest point of interest for me is the idea of terraforming portions of the Earth.

The idea stirs up questions.

I bet if I did not mention moderating the level of the Oceans, Caspia would not be such an irritant.

The point is you can evaluate the advantages and disadvantages of a proposed action, recognize that it makes sense or not, but you do have to make the measurements before takng a position.

Water as humidy from such bodies of water is becomming valuable. In most cases, however a confess that for technical or political reasons they are impracticle.

It would be quite intersting to see if the locals of the Caspian Sea could come up with a political formulation to decide to do that project. It is also interesting that some other places such as Holland or New York City might have an interst in promoting it.

Karovs post was lonely so I starting posting to this thread. Also, I had at one time pondered pushing sea water into the great basin to change climate. Of course we cannot afford the required energy, and very few people actually want to involve themselves with real work anymore.

Terraformer · 2014-06-02 13:23:13

Or, flood the ranches of rich actors so that poor people in cities can keep their homes.

Void · 2014-06-02 14:09:30

I thought I might try a new thread for this but what the heck it's close:

I think I do have a proposal for the Great Basin that might work.

Solar energy being able to supply energy to schemes to reduce CO2 to fuels,
Mushrooms able to eat fuel, and I hope being usable as food, then this is farming
in the desert with minimal water.

A possible source of food, feedstock for plastics, soil for other crops.

Fuel from renewable energy and CO2 (Water also I presume)
http://phys.org/news/2014-05-method-bis … oxide.html

Mushrooms
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l05knxG6eT0

But a parallel trick: I recall efforts to plant trees in arid places, hoping that
the green color of the trees (Instead of the reflective desert color) would lead
to cooler atmospheric skies up where rain can form.

I guess the trick is to dump the solar heat to the lower atmosphere, and so the
upper atmosphere can be cooler, and more likely to produce precipitation.

So with solar panels part is absorbed and perhaps converted to electricity, and the
energy ends up in cities. Part is absorbed and released as infrared, and part is
reflected.

It might interfere with efficiency, but if the purpose was to produce an economic
output of energy, food, and increased rainfall, then such solar panels might be
designed to cool the rain layers of the sky.

Hmm... I wonder if that will then become the next environmental fetish. Cold pollution.

Buck, Buck, Buck the sky is freezing.

Well it might increase the moisture of the Great Basin a amount worth the trouble.

Don't know if any seas will form.

I would say then if you could have moisturized caves for mushrooms, and a solar driven
process to manufacture hydrocarbons for the mushrooms to eat, then you have a new type
of desert farming.

This might work for other deserts also I would think.

Last edited by Void (2014-06-02 14:12:37)

karov · 2014-06-04 03:03:46

The nuked canal is 600km long, 100m deep and 500m wide. Volume = 30km3 to fill up.

It will be formed, say, at once - frequency of explosions of, say, a second apart, or it'll take less then an hour.

Caspian sea surface is 28 bellow world ocean level.

But at Volga down south from Volgograd the denivelation would only 1-2 metres bellow world ocean level.

So we have a "slide" of 0 to -28m hudreds of km long down the hill.

Average the inundated lands will be covered by ( how much? ) - 10ish meters of water?

*Caspia would have roughly twice the area of Caspian sea.

So water volume to flood in would be roughly 600 000 km2 x 0.01 km or 6000 km3.

Asov sea has average depth of 7 ( SEVEN! ) meters, and max depth of 14 meters. Area: 39 000km2. Volume of 300-ish km3.

About 20 Asov seas shall pour down on *Caspia.

The link between Asov and Black sea - the Kerch strait is 3km wide and up to 18m deep.

Black sea volume is half a million km2 and km3 of water.

Apparently filling up *Caspia to the rim will take as much water as roughly the upmost 20-30m of the Black sea water.

This would be displaced by an influx from the Med via Bosporus-Dardaneles.

So we have: a practically unlimited provider volume ( world ocean - Med - Black sea) forming a joint vessel with a consumer pool ( *Caspia ), via: #1 - flat "gutter" 10m deep and 400km long ( Asov sea), then #2 - deeper "gutter" 100m deep, 500m wide and 600km long ( the nuked under *Caspia canal ), and then #3 - flat "gutter" dozens of km wide, less then 10m deep and hundreds of km long ( the Lower Volga bed ).

The nuked canal forms instantly.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Questions:

1. How long it will take *Caspia to fill up, given these characteristics of depth/lenght/width/volumes involved under the force of gravity alone?

2. What would be the dynamical characteristics of the flow? ( in Med, at the Straits - Dardanelles and Bosporus, at Kerch strait, in Asov sea, along the Nuke Canal of Caspia, along Lower Volga )? - speed, capacity ...

Void · 2014-06-04 14:16:22

As entertainment since we are discussing ideas "Environmentalists" (Whatever that is), will have fits about:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Caspianseamap.png

I realize I deviate often, but what about then considering passing the water from the Black Sea throught the air to Caspia, and from Caspia to the land of it's watershed, maybe the Aral Sea?

That is Orbital Mirrors focused on the Black Sea to heat it's surface to evaporate water and perhaps cause more rain in the Caspian Sea watershed. And the same thing to the Caspian Sea to cause it's evaporation to locations around it?

Also those orbital mirrors could be diverted during the agricultural frosts to protect crops in the Spring and Fall of the northern growing season. So helping to earn their keep.

Even if the canal no longer carried a strong water flow after Caspia filled up perhaps it could be modified to become a new seaway.

Not saying not to make the canal, but once Caspia is filled up, sending fresh water by evaporation and rain to Caspia would reduce the amount of salts concentrating in that sea, and if evaporation from the Black Sea and Caspia were to cause more rain, then better agricultures around the two seas.

Similar things could be done elsewhere. Lifting water vapor over the costal mountains of California into the great Basin from the Pacific Ocean for instance, (While cooling the higher atmosphere with solar collectors). (Ectopians having fits just now).

Chile, Namibia perhaps.

Other things to do with the mirrors deviate too far, so I will not mention them here.

Last edited by Void (2014-06-04 17:24:14)

Terraformer · 2014-06-04 17:18:05

[insert karov reference to Halls weather machine]

Terraformer · 2014-06-04 17:21:33

Since the arctic won't add much to the sea level, what about opening up the arctic, say by enlarging the Bering straight and doing a bit of modification to Canada, allowing warmer waters to heat up the arctic? Cooling the pacific, yes, I don't know what that effect will have...

Void · 2014-06-04 17:28:41

Orbital Mirrors or Hall Weather Machine, if you can do it.

Yes I was thinking of the James Bay of the Hudson Bay, warming wild rice paddies fed by the river drainage. Water paddies are frost inhibitors in themselves if they are warmed
above the air temps during the day. Don't feel assured the Canadians fancy it though. I think their may be some clay pockets around there that could be farmed other than the usual stone and sticks topography.

But this is the deviate too far stuff. Not wrong, but not to my mind a sibling or first cousin to Caspia. 2nd cousin perhaps.

It is of some interest though. The Ectopuses will not like any of this.

Last edited by Void (2014-06-04 17:29:49)

karov · 2014-06-05 06:17:53

for aerial transportation of water:

1. google for "bolonkin floating pipelines"

2. Hall Weather Machine - yeah in principle could manipulate temperature and pressure in such way that to increase evaporation, to direct and stimulate condensation on spot ... as a non-solid version of a "floating pipeline" where the pipe walls are made not from solid material but of kinetic structure utilizing the air around and the cargo as construction material.

======

On my questions above:

Sudden flooding of Caspian depression via nuked linear subsidence mutli-craters would resemble this : (GLOF )
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glacial_la … urst_flood

It definitelly shall be outburst flood, but with billions of times bigger in volume and and several times lower higher ground reservoir.

The GLOFs move cubical miles per second ... how much would the *Caspian flood move? Can s.o. calculate?

======

Browsing the GLOFs record I found that the aka "English channel flood" - ECF ( google for it for more details - but here you are two links: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6904675.stm & http://www.nature.com/news/2007/070716/ … 16-11.html ), has/had matching characteristics.

The difference of the water table levels of the North sea ( ice bound/dammed from North ) across/overspilling Douvre-Callais chalk rock dam was about 30m. Pretty much the same as with Ocean-to-Caspia one of 28 meters. Yes there is a difference that a lake can not overfill the ocean, but...

The EFC :: "discharging an estimated one million cubic metres of water per second."

1 mln. cu.m. is 1/1000th of a cubical kilometer.

Per second.

1000 seconds per cubical kilometer.

6 000 000 seconds for complete refill of Caspia up to the World ocean level.

9 and a half weeks.

The nuke canal of linearry linked subsidence craters would fill up in mere hours.

For comparison Volga discharges 8000 m3 per second into Caspian sea.

Which is 124 times less then the nuke flood.

I expect the Lower Volga basin to get dredged deep by these thousands of cubic kilometers running down south for months.

The silt deposition on the North Caspian bottom shall displace water and thus will elevate the level of the sea, which means that the refil could take even less then 2+ months.

Last edited by karov (2014-06-05 08:23:01)

Void · 2014-06-06 08:07:27

This is somewhat timely:

http://phys.org/news/2014-06-scientists … lakes.html

The research, published in the journal Geological Society of America Bulletin, found that the lakes were able to grow large – rivaling the Great Lakes – during the peak of the last Ice Age 21,000 years ago, a period known as the "Last Glacial Maximum," because evaporation rates were significantly lower than today.
"It was previously thought that the lakes grew because there was more rain and snowfall during this period of the Earth's history," said Daniel Ibarra, a graduate student in Stanford's Department of Environmental Earth System Science and the first author of the study.

So, we have so far discussed nuclear canals, cooling the sky with solar pannels, and conveying mositure from a body of water to a dry location.

Shading to reduce evaporation is also an option. I would suppose that solar panels can supply shade. Leave enought "Window" to give plants below at least 1000 lumens of the availible 10,000 lumens of light.

I am sure you will suggest the Hall Weather Machine.

Far more diffacult would be:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taklamakan_Desert

But once you got water into it it would tend to stay their longer because of the ring of mountains.

Last edited by Void (2014-06-06 08:18:26)

karov · 2014-06-10 10:48:31

Void wrote:

This is somewhat timely:
http://cdn.phys.org/newman/gfx/news/201 … istsso.jpg
http://phys.org/news/2014-06-scientists … lakes.html
The research, published in the journal Geological Society of America Bulletin, found that the lakes were able to grow large – rivaling the Great Lakes – during the peak of the last Ice Age 21,000 years ago, a period known as the "Last Glacial Maximum," because evaporation rates were significantly lower than today.
"It was previously thought that the lakes grew because there was more rain and snowfall during this period of the Earth's history," said Daniel Ibarra, a graduate student in Stanford's Department of Environmental Earth System Science and the first author of the study.
So, we have so far discussed nuclear canals, cooling the sky with solar pannels, and conveying mositure from a body of water to a dry location.
Shading to reduce evaporation is also an option. I would suppose that solar panels can supply shade. Leave enought "Window" to give plants below at least 1000 lumens of the availible 10,000 lumens of light.
I am sure you will suggest the Hall Weather Machine.
Far more diffacult would be:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taklamakan_Desert
But once you got water into it it would tend to stay their longer because of the ring of mountains.

Tarim basin? Okay. Lets fill it up with water. How deep we could make it before it starts to spill over? In which direction? - it seems east? How high over the world ocean level the Tarim sea could be?

And... of course via Hall Weather Machine! What else? :: focus light on a, say, Indian ocean spot, then create pressure canal to over Tarim and rain down. I wonder how capacious such mechanism could be.

Tarim basin / Taclamakan desert is a million km2 - almost trice the Black sea, and similarly almost 2km deep, so we are talking about 1.5 million cubic kilometers of water = over 1/1000th of the total oceanic reserves...

Void · 2014-06-10 13:54:40

Nice.

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#26 2014-06-02 10:41:27

Re: Caspia

#27 2014-06-02 11:44:15

Re: Caspia

#28 2014-06-02 13:23:13

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#29 2014-06-02 14:09:30

Re: Caspia

#30 2014-06-04 03:03:46

Re: Caspia

#31 2014-06-04 14:16:22

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#32 2014-06-04 17:18:05

Re: Caspia

#33 2014-06-04 17:21:33

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#34 2014-06-04 17:28:41

Re: Caspia

#35 2014-06-05 06:17:53

Re: Caspia

#36 2014-06-06 08:07:27

Re: Caspia

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Re: Caspia

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