Ukraine & Crimea

martienne · 2014-04-18 06:55:19

The Independent wrote:

Kirill Rudenko, a spokesman for the People's Republic of Donbass, also said they have no affiliation with the leaflets.
"We made no such demands on Jews," he said. "We have nothing against Jews.
"This is just another attempt to tarnish our image ... It is a crude forgery."

That's exactly what I said. These leaflets was another step in a very dirty propaganda war against Russian speakers in Ukraine, Eastern Ukraine, and the Russian Federation.

No need to read any statement. Anyone who knows anything at all about Ukraine would know it was b/s. Nobody even cares who's Jewish there, and most of the the Jews are intermarried.

I don't think anyone other than some Western newspapers and ignorant people believed it. And that was exactly the intention.

RobertDyck wrote:

Again, Cuba is innocent.

Or even a victim..

Tom Kalbfus wrote:

Do the Russians have a long history of antisemitism or not?

Russia definitely has a history of antisemitism along with almost every country in Europe. Nobody is questioning that at all.

However, it stopped during the USSR era and it's not a problem in modern Russia. Most of the oligarchs in Russia are actually Jews and Jews are doing more than well in Russia. Millions of Jews who wanted to get away from the fallout of the USSR emigrated to Israel in the 90s. Not because they faced persecution but because they life was hard and Israel offered a fresh start.

Unfortunately the Right Front who is sharing power in Kiev at the moment are Nazis and hate Jews.

Last edited by martienne (2014-04-18 07:09:38)

RobertDyck · 2014-04-18 07:34:21

martienne wrote:

Russia definitely has a history of antisemitism along with almost every country in Europe. Nobody is questioning that at all.
However, it stopped during the USSR era and it's not a problem in modern Russia. Most of the oligarchs in Russia are actually Jews and Jews are doing more than well in Russia. Millions of Jews who wanted to get away from the fallout of the USSR emigrated to Israel in the 90s. Not because they faced persecution but because they life was hard and Israel offered a fresh start.
Unfortunately the Right Front who is sharing power in Kiev at the moment are Nazis and hate Jews.

Someone posted those notices. I'm glad Russia is trying to distance itself from this, but someone did it.

Don't fall into the trap of responding to Tom with the same bias he shows. Notice the rest of us either argue or ignore him. And yea, Putin is trying to blame the "Right Front" for those notices, but they were posted in areas controlled by pro-Russian militias.

JoshNH4H · 2014-04-18 08:34:38

martienne wrote:

Unfortunately the Right Front who is sharing power in Kiev at the moment are Nazis and hate Jews.

Do you have any evidence for this assertion?

martienne · 2014-04-18 11:25:51

JoshNH4H wrote:

Do you have any evidence for this assertion?

Yes - the fact that they are Nazis and proud of it. They beat up one of the leading orthodox rabbis in Kiev, and vandalised the main synagogue.

Below are their uniforms. Does it remind you of anything?
Svoboda (Freedom) is their political party and Praviy Sektor (Right Sector) is their equivalent of the SS. Instead of National Socialist they say they are Socialist Nationalist. These people have been exercising a reign of terror in Kiev beating up people who write things they don't like, or photograph things they don't approve of.

If you don't believe me, search Yandex.ru or Google for
правий сектор or свовода украина and look at the pictures that come up.

Youtube is full of videos of them beating up regular officials who won't go along with their agenda. It's anarchy there at the moment. Yanukovich may not have been perfect, but he was democratically elected, he agreed to carry out elections earlier and at any rate, the regular elections were scheduled for under a year after the coup d'etat.

Right sector marches

Nazi greeting at Svoboda's annual meeting

One of the leaders in Svoboda, Igor Mosiychuk

Svoboda leader with American foreign department staff

Svoboda leader making nazi salute in 2013

People in Crimea mourning the "Russian Invasion"
27.si.jpg

Crimea before the referendum

"we always support Russia in sports anyway - we are not ukrainians"

"of course we want to join the motherland"

"we are so grateful for all the support from Russia"

Crimea's future is with Russia

Practically nobody on Crimea would is against being part pm Russia. If there had been any you would have seen them sobbing on English speaking news. There aren't any.

The situation is different in Eastern Ukraine, although all are Russian speakers there, I'd say about 50% would go with Russia and 50% want increased autonomy or federalism as part of Ukraine.

Last edited by martienne (2014-04-18 12:24:50)

JoshNH4H · 2014-04-18 12:00:18

I did a bit of research on the topic, and it seems to me that there is a distinction to be made between "Right Sector" And "Svoboda", insofar as the group Right Sector has more members and takes a less radical stance on who is a Ukrainian. I'm an internationalist, myself (I can't say I support any of the movements going on in Ukraine at the moment), but Right Sector doesn't seem to be any worse than, say, the Tea Party.

If there's anything paying attention to foreign affairs has showed me, it's that I am utterly incapable of predicting what's going to happen next, anywhere. It's that I don't know anything about what's going on and that no news article can cover it properly. It's also that usually people who are alarmed are simply alarmist.

I don't know what's going on in Ukraine. But I don't believe that there are any Nazis anywhere.

martienne · 2014-04-18 12:06:32

JoshNH4H wrote:

I don't believe that there are any Nazis anywhere.

Allright then. They probably just got dressed up like that for a fancy dress party and did the Nazi salute as a joke.

Seriously, I give up - I won't post in this thread anymore.

The Tea Party will be like Right Sector when they start dressing up in Nazi style uniforms and beating up people who say things they don't like. I don't think that's happened yet. Neither has the Tea Party pulled off a coup d'etat with the help of foreign countries, if you want to take the parallel further.

But that's your peaceful force that was the driving engine behind the coup d'etat in Ukraine, and don't feel surprised, they are no worse than the Taliban, previous bed-fellows of the USA.

Most people in Eastern Ukraine, and essentially everybody on Crimea wanted none of this, and it was the final straw for them.

Last edited by martienne (2014-04-18 12:31:58)

JoshNH4H · 2014-04-18 15:16:13

It can be tough to say what's going on from pictures. I don't consider that to be necessarily conclusive. You've said in the past that westerners need to be more open to alternative formulations of the news. Have you considered that, perhaps, the news you're hearing about events in Ukraine is just as biased regarding the other side?

RobertDyck · 2014-04-18 16:19:07

Your English description of each picture indicates this is Crimea. That doesn't say anything about what's going on in Eastern Ukraine. Those pictures don't releate to the Jewish notices.

Tom Kalbfus · 2014-04-18 21:15:39

Also these pictures show a bunch of people "playing Nazi" you see Nazi like flags and banners, people giving the Nazi salute. I don't see anybody getting beaten up, I don't see piles of human bodies getting ready for cremation. It seems to me these people dressing up as Nazis just want attention. I suspect the purpose of all these pictures is to justify an invasion of Ukraine, its even possible that Putin himself may have set it up. You know they could be Russian actors in Nazi uniforms pretending to be Ukrainians. I remember how Hitler justified the invasion of Poland, he dressed up a bunch of German prisoners in Polish Army Uniforms and had them stage an attack on a radio station, that way the subsequent invasion of Poland on September 1 was justified as a reaction to a Polish attack on Germany. Those prisoners were later shot, they probably were slated to be executed anyway, so Hitler created some propaganda with them before disposing of them!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Poland

During the night of 31 August, the Gleiwitz incident, a false flag attack on the radio station, was staged near the border city of Gleiwitz by German units posing as Polish troops, in Upper Silesia as part of the wider Operation Himmler.[39] On 31 August 1939, Hitler ordered hostilities against Poland to start at 4:45 the next morning. Because of the prior stoppage, Poland managed to mobilize only 70% of its planned forces, and many units were still forming or moving to their designated frontline positions.

Maybe all these "Ukrainian Nazis" are Putin's "Gleiwitz" incident to justify what he's about to do in order to "protect" those Russian Nationals. Well I'm not buying it. I don't know who those people are in those Nazi uniforms. I can't imagine any good reason for a bunch of Ukrainians to go around playing Nazi when a Russian Army is about to invade. I think this is orchestrated by the Russians just as the Gleiwitz incident was orchestrated by the Germans. Even if they are real, marching in uniform and giving the Nazi Heil Hitler salute is in itself not a war crime or a crime against humanity, and certainly not an excuse for an invasion. What matters are the troop movements and invasions that Putin is conducting and planning, where it matters is where war occurs and lives are lost, a Nazi parade is not a crime. You just feed them if you pay them any sort of attention at all, the less publicity they get the better. The people doing these Nazi parades want attention so that the publicity would build their movements, or else they are a false flag operation by the Russians to justify an invasion, so either way it is better to ignore them until and if they start actually killing or beating up people, then it is Ukraine's job to enforce the law an arrest those responsible, not Russia's. Martine sounds like he wants a Russian invasion, he wants to Russians to gobble up Ukraine and make that country cease to exist. I say, not all Ukrainians are Nazis and they don't deserve to lose their country because a few folks want to dress up as Nazis in their country and hold rallies. The United States has its Nazis and KKK as well, you can't judge a whole country and condemn it to death because of a few fringe groups! What Martine wants to do is broad brush an entire nationality as a bunch of Nazis so to justify a Russian invasion, that is just wrong! Ukraine hasn't invaded anybody, the only people doing the invading are the Russians!

Tom Kalbfus · 2014-04-18 21:34:44

martienne wrote:

JoshNH4H wrote:
I don't believe that there are any Nazis anywhere.
Allright then. They probably just got dressed up like that for a fancy dress party and did the Nazi salute as a joke.

Exactly! And do you know who else dressed up as a Nazi? Prince Harry Windsor, that naughty prince once dressed up as a Hitler Youth for Halloween. Those elaborate Nazi rallies are basically Halloween parties, they want attention, they want to offend people, and they want to get their names in the papers.

martienne wrote:

Seriously, I give up - I won't post in this thread anymore.

You have said this multiple times already. I think you only say this to forstall a quick retort from me. Its kind of like a boxer getting a jab in at his opponent and then saying he quits and doesn't want to fight anymore!

martienne wrote:

The Tea Party will be like Right Sector when they start dressing up in Nazi style uniforms and beating up people who say things they don't like. I don't think that's happened yet. Neither has the Tea Party pulled off a coup d'etat with the help of foreign countries, if you want to take the parallel further.

Its your fantasy martienne! I've attended a few Tea Party rallies and there was no "Heil Hitler" in any of them. Why are you making these things up? What has the Tea Party ever done to you to justify all the hatred you show towards them? I just don't get it! I think comparing people to Nazis, that don't deserve it, is a very hateful thing to do! What your doing toward Ukraine, labeling them as Nazis is very hateful as well! If people commit Nazi like atrocities or start wars like Nazis then the comparison is deserved. Does it occur to you that their are a lot of children in Ukraine that will get hurt if the Russians invade and their is a war? You want to label all of their parents as Nazi so the Russians may start invading, and people including children will be hurt and maimed, all for the greater glory of Russia! Why can't you just leave Ukraine alone? Why can't Russia mind its own business and let Ukraine do what it wants such as join the EU? Lying about a person ad trying to impugn one's character by making false witness is just wrong. You get a few pictures of people dressed as Nazis and you say Ukraine is full of Nazis and that Russia needs to invade and go get some land for itself to save those poor Russians. Seems that this has happened before in 1939.

martienne wrote:

But that's your peaceful force that was the driving engine behind the coup d'etat in Ukraine, and don't feel surprised, they are no worse than the Taliban, previous bed-fellows of the USA.
Most people in Eastern Ukraine, and essentially everybody on Crimea wanted none of this, and it was the final straw for them.

Nice propaganda Martienne, I wonder how you will look yourself in the mirror when Russian troops start gunning down Ukrainian school children? Russians get real ugly when they go to war, and they don't pull punches! I've known some Ukrainians and none of them were Nazis! You find few pictures and you want to say that is all of them in effect.

martienne · 2014-04-19 00:40:02

The Guardian: Antisemitic flyer 'by Donetsk People's Republic' in Ukraine a hoax

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/a … raine-hoax

Everybody else realised it immediately. They actually copied part of the text from a play by the Strugatsky brothers. The person whose signature was faked on the document have been on TV across the Russian speaking world confirming that absolutely everything about the letter is fake. Of course, you are not shown that.
Only Western media and their readers believed this nonsense, and that was who it was intended for.

Tom Kalbfus wrote:

I wonder how you will look yourself in the mirror when Russian troops start gunning down Ukrainian school children?

That has not happened and never will. But why don't YOU take a look in the mirror to see how you and your values look to the rest of the world?

US senator says drones death toll is 4700
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne … -4700.html

I could go on for the rest of this page, as you well know, but I think you get the general idea.

Tom Kalbfus wrote:

I've attended a few Tea Party rallies and there was no "Heil Hitler" in any of them. Why are you making these things up? What has the Tea Party ever done to you to justify all the hatred you show towards them?

I made no such claims. Either you are lying on purpose or you got yourself confused. Various people keep bringing up the Tea Party in this thread. I make no claims at all about it; it doesn't interest me and the USA can do whatever it likes WITHIN its own borders. I happen to share some of their views on moral issues - other than that I couldn't care less about the Tea Party, or any other aspect of internal American politics. It's when the US starts meddling and killing abroad that I take offense. If you re-read what I wrote I think you'll find that.

-------------------------------------
I'll leave you American's alone with the propaganda you seem to love to believe and hate to have challenged. I can tell that various shades of Tom's beliefs rule this forum and that challenging that makes you an outsider and pariah. I thought there'd be some here that were smarter than that, but obviously that was an overestimation, and I am now turned off this entire forum, and am doubting that any serious cooperation with the USA is even possible for Russia.
----------------------------------------

Last edited by martienne (2014-04-19 02:56:56)

Tom Kalbfus · 2014-04-19 07:35:18

martienne wrote:

The Guardian: Antisemitic flyer 'by Donetsk People's Republic' in Ukraine a hoax
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/a … raine-hoax
Everybody else realised it immediately. They actually copied part of the text from a play by the Strugatsky brothers. The person whose signature was faked on the document have been on TV across the Russian speaking world confirming that absolutely everything about the letter is fake. Of course, you are not shown that.
Only Western media and their readers believed this nonsense, and that was who it was intended for.

Tom Kalbfus wrote:
I wonder how you will look yourself in the mirror when Russian troops start gunning down Ukrainian school children?
That has not happened and never will. But why don't YOU take a look in the mirror to see how you and your values look to the rest of the world?
http://www.ikea.com/gb/en/images/produc … 223_S4.JPG
http://www.newspakistan.pk/wp-content/u … ildren.jpg
US senator says drones death toll is 4700
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne … -4700.html
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/4 … 64x261.gif
I could go on for the rest of this page, as you well know, but I think you get the general idea.
Tom Kalbfus wrote:
I've attended a few Tea Party rallies and there was no "Heil Hitler" in any of them. Why are you making these things up? What has the Tea Party ever done to you to justify all the hatred you show towards them?
I made no such claims. Either you are lying on purpose or you got yourself confused. Various people keep bringing up the Tea Party in this thread. I make no claims at all about it; it doesn't interest me and the USA can do whatever it likes WITHIN its own borders. I happen to share some of their views on moral issues - other than that I couldn't care less about the Tea Party, or any other aspect of internal American politics. It's when the US starts meddling and killing abroad that I take offense. If you re-read what I wrote I think you'll find that.

Actually you did, you speculated that the Tea Party could end up looking like Nazi rallies. You've compared something that doesn't deserve to be compared to Hitler, and that is wrong! What Putin has done has some historic parallels to what Hitler did in the 1930s in the run up to World War II. This is the 100th anniversary to the start of of those two World Wars by the way, Putin has an interesting way of commemorating it! You know when the ball dropped on January 1 of 2014 I said that I hope we don't have another World War this year, such as the one that occurred 100 years ago.

martienne wrote:

-------------------------------------
I'll leave you American's alone with the propaganda you seem to love to believe and hate to have challenged. I can tell that various shades of Tom's beliefs rule this forum and that challenging that makes you an outsider and pariah. I thought there'd be some here that were smarter than that, but obviously that was an overestimation, and I am now turned off this entire forum, and am doubting that any serious cooperation with the USA is even possible for Russia.
----------------------------------------

Nor really, most aren't as "far right" as I am, but you are to the far left, you question the validity of Capitalism, but it has worked for us a lot better than Communism has worked for the Soviets, that is why we are still here and they are not. I don't believe the USSR is a worthy empire worth resurrecting, as Putin is attempting to do. The various states that made it up want their independence and they don't want to go back to it. Putin is trying to drag them in kicking and screaming, they deserve the chance to try something else besides another Communist experiment or a Fascist one. Let the Ukrainians work out their Nazi Problems internally without Russian interference, something Putin won't do, if he is concerned about those Russians and Jews, he can offer them asylum if he likes, that is what most countries do after all!

The things going on in Iraq and Afghanistan have little to do with What Putin's doing in the Ukraine, that's just an attempt by you to change the subject an say the United States is not perfect either. Well we're not, but that's no excuse for what Putin's doing. Any Ukrainian reading what you wrote would be quite perplexed, as he wouldn't see what Iraq has to do with Russian troops invading his country and stealing land. Most Ukrainians probably don't care one way or another what went on in Iraq, it has nothing to do with their situation now!

You can read this from the Huffington Post:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stephen-b … lp00000592
not exactly a conservative publication

Huffington post wrote:

Stephen Blank Become a fan
Fellow, The American Foreign Policy Council

Russia's Lurch Toward Fascism

Posted: 04/18/2014 12:12 pm EDT Updated: 04/18/2014 12:59 pm EDT
Print Article
We run the risk of missing critical aspects of Russian policy if we assume that Moscow's continuing invasions of Ukraine are exclusively about Russo-Ukrainian issues. One of the founding fathers of Soviet studies, Adam Ulam, observed back in 1965 that empire was the biggest obstacle to reform in Russian history. That is still the case; the Kremlin's attempts to destroy the foundations of Ukrainian statehood, sovereignty, and territorial integrity are also aimed at Russia's domestic opposition to Putin. It represents the culmination of his campaign to suppress political dissent under a wave of officially imposed quasi-religious nationalism akin to that of the later Tsars and (more recently) to the late Stalin and late Brezhnev periods.
Thus, Moscow's Ukrainian operation has been accompanied by ever-mounting pressure against media and other critics of the regime, and by the suppression of domestic dissent. Indeed, even as Moscow fulminates against supposed neo-Nazis and anti-Semites terrorizing Ukraine, its media regularly publishes articles darkly speculating about the allegedly Jewish origin of Russian dissidents and its officials feel no inhibition about making openly anti-Semitic remarks to their foreign interlocutors. Evidently, Moscow feels that it alone has the right to employ anti-Semitism as a weapon of political warfare.
This, coupled with escalating domestic repression and mounting religious-nationalist chauvinism of the state and official media, evokes the late Stalinist and Brezhnev periods. But what we really see emerging are clear aspects of fascism. Not long ago, the columnist George Will called Putin a little strutting Mussolini. The description fits; although the Russian government remains a patrimonial Muscovite autocracy, symptoms of fascism abound -- and they are multiplying.
It's useful to remember that proto-fascist groups espousing ideas like those of the notorious Alexander Dugin, the moving spirit behind much of the current regime's ideology, had been a feature of the early twentieth century, before the revolution of 1917. Their ideas have survived the twists and turns of Russian history since then.
As in other fascist regimes, we see a manufactured cult of the leader, an alliance with the Church against any dissent, state control over the economy, complete control of the media, and the imposition of a state of siege against all foreign ideas and on foreign policy. Typically, the state seeks to prevent its people from becoming politically active. Instead, as in Vichy France, it trumpets an ideology based on work, family and a state patriotism. In Russia, the latter habitually takes the form of glorifications of empire. While today there is no totalitarian ideology like Marxism-Leninism, there is instead an ideological campaign of state nationalism that resembles that of Mussolini's Italy, Vichy France, Franco's Spain, Salazar's Portugal, and the Colonels' Greece.
But the resemblance does not end there. With the exception of Vichy France (which was a German satellite imposed by war), all of those fascist states were inherently imperialistically minded, and came to power either after or in order to wage imperial wars abroad. Putin's Russia is no different, and like the others it also cannot modernize the economy beyond its present point. Indeed, it has given up trying.
In Russian history, the invocation of the trinity of church, state, and Russian nationalism has historically occurred at precisely those intervals where the state essentially admits that it has nothing to offer anyone and will not reform. Empire thus becomes a surrogate for reform. But empire inevitably means war. As occurred in many other fascist states, these episodes of Russian history have invariably ended in wars that Russia lost, new rulers, major (but ultimately insufficient) reforms, and ultimately the crash of the system. In Ukraine, Putin has wagered the future of his regime on what one Tsarist statesman called "the lure of something erotic on the peripheries." By doing so, he has bet the farm that victory in Ukraine will assure the stability of his state.
The opposite, however, is likely. Putin may have invaded Ukraine to sustain his power and popularity at home, but in fact he has all but ensured the acceleration of the forces that will ultimately torpedo not only his system but Russia as well. This is a course of action without an "off ramp," despite what Western powers may believe. Russia's actions in Ukraine show that Putin can now only move forward to more attacks, threats, and ever intensifying repression that ends in crisis and stagnation.
In this respect, Putin's Russia again resembles its fascist predecessors. By starting this war, Putin has ensured that the fate of those regimes will be his and Russia's, too.
Stephen Blank is Senior Fellow for Russia at the American Foreign Policy Council in Washington, DC.

Let us hope that Putin's regime does end they way Hitler's did, because that would involve a World War between the Russia and the United States, and would probably involve Moscow and Washington DC getting vaporized instead of Putin sticking a gun in his mouth and blowing his brains out!

Last edited by Tom Kalbfus (2014-04-19 07:58:20)

RobertDyck · 2014-04-19 11:54:50

Tom Kalbfus wrote:

Let us hope that Putin's regime does end they way Hitler's did

Does that mean World War 3, with more millions of people killed that previous major wars combined? In World War 1, 12 million people died including both civilians and soldiers on both sides. In World War 2, 55 million people died, including both civilians and soldiers on both sides and the holocaust. Or do you mean allied troops approaching a heavily armoured bunker built with the newest and latest technology, and the leader simply killing himself? Or do you subscribed to the belief that Hitler never did kill himself, that he and his Nazi's were exiled to an island in Argentina until they died of old age?

Last edited by RobertDyck (2014-04-19 12:31:10)

Tom Kalbfus · 2014-04-19 12:53:44

I accept that he blew his brains out when his bunker was surrounded by Soviet troops, and if that's wrong, it makes little difference anyway. Adolf probably isn't alive today, and if he was in hiding for the rest of his life, he hid very well. For the first time in a long time, we have a scenario for starting World War III that is believable. Though I think Russia would have nothing to gain from starting World War III, and everything to lose. I think if we challenged him with sufficient force, he would back down. Its only if he sees a chance to build an empire that he'll make his move. Being weak in front of Russia is a bad idea, discourage Russia now, before it gets any ideas that the United States will back down and let him have the whole thing. Also the other European states should develop some backbone instead of calling for help from the United States whenever they get in trouble. Where is Germany in this? It started the first two World Wars, you'd think it would send troops into Ukraine to discourage the Russians, Hitler did after all!

RobertDyck · 2014-04-19 13:51:46

Germany lost badly when they tried to invade Russia during WW2. When German troops succeeded, Russian troops executed "scorched earth" as they retreated. So German troops gained no assets. When winter fell, German troops were not prepared for it. Today, Russia has an industrial economy with a population of 143,657,134 (January 1, 2014, according to Wikipedia), while Germany has 80,716,000 (September 30, 2013). Most of the economic impact of absorbing East Germany has passed, it has been 23.5 years, but East Germany is big so expect there continue to be lingering effects. Relocation of the German capital from Bonn to Berlin was only completed in 1999. From the beginning of WW1 (1917) to reunification (1990) is how many years? Or do you count that to 1999? Why would they want to go through that again?

From what I've read, the EU doesn't want Ukraine. The US tried to force Ukraine upon them. Ukrainians in Ukraine are adamant that they will never join Russia, but Russian-speaking people in Ukraine appear equally adamant that they do not want to join the EU. Ok, so let it remain neutral. After all, Putin himself said he wants Ukraine to remain neutral. But Putin has claimed 4 more oblasts of Ukraine. That is a problem. The Canadian Prime Minister said this is going to be a long-term problem. This could erupt into civil war. It could become WW3!

Tom Kalbfus · 2014-04-19 20:44:41

From your reasoning Ukraine should split in two, not remain neutral. What is the advantage of keeping a country where half the population wants to be part of Russia because they are Russian? They don't want to be part of Russia because they hate the West. Also the question of neutrality presupposes that their will be a war between Russia and the rest of Europe that doesn't want to be part of Russia. Neutrality does nothing for Ukraine's defense, which Russia can invade at anytime it wants, being neutral doesn't prevent such an invasion. Western Ukraine needs to be part of NATO, not a fake neutrality where Russia controls it from behind the scenes. Collective Defense is what keeps Ukraine out of Russia's clutches. You split Ukraine in two, the Western part joins NATO either as a separate member or part of Poland as it once was. if the Spaniards, French, and Germans are hostile to Ukraine as a member, then it simply becomes part of Poland and Poland becomes the largest nation in Europe outside of Russia. Here's how the math works Ukraine loses its eastern half and gains Poland and Poland gains the Ukraine, it is just as large as it was before only in this case half the population are Poles instead of Russians, and their is no larger Poland that the Poles want to be a part of. NATO gets bigger, and Russia gets bigger, only not as big as it wants to get as its only getting half of Ukraine. I say give people what they want, and neutrality towards freedom is not what they want. Russia has got to learn that it can't push other countries around, we shouldn't reward it for doing so.

RobertDyck · 2014-04-19 22:25:49

Switzerland has remained neutral through two world wars. Your demands they join NATO and the EU are just empire building, you are just as bad as Putin.

And there are people in Quebec who want that province to split from Canada. But they haven't, and both Quebec and the rest of Canada are better for it. Martienne has said the remaining oblasts of Ukraine do not have Russian majority like Crimea. I don't know, but I believe it. The Quebec separtists are very loud, but they're a minority. A significant minority, but a minority. I wouldn't be surprised if the same exists in the four oblasts currently in dispute.

Poland absorb Ukraine? Uhhh, no. Would you want Mexico to absorb Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada, California?

I hate to admit it, but giving up any land would most probably result in increased expansionism. Yes, like Hitler. But at this point we can still avoid war. But trying to demand "you win" will only result in war. Any successful solution here means neither Russia nor USA win. Ukraine wins, not some superpower.

I remember a past discussion on NewMars. One American member (I don't think it was you, but it was a number of years ago), asked if I want rather have Canada ruled by the UK instead of being ruled by Washington. Of course the answer is neither. Canada is free, we are our own country. We are a member of NATO, but we aren't ruled by NATO. Canada is a middle power. Ukraine is not a middle power, but at least the Ukrainians in Ukraine do want to remain free. But freedom means they don't take orders from anyone: not Russia, not USA, not NATO, not EU. Still to this day Canada is part of the British Commonwealth, although I don't know anything the Commonwealth has done. But because of Quebec, Canada is also part of the Francophonie, the French equivalent to the British Commonwealth. It's structure is different, but the point is Canada is a member of both. So why can't Ukraine have economic ties to both EU and the Eurasian Economic Community? Or Eurasian Economic Union (EAU), expected to replace EAEC in 2015?

Last edited by RobertDyck (2014-04-19 22:27:46)

Tom Kalbfus · 2014-04-20 05:09:57

RobertDyck wrote:

Switzerland has remained neutral through two world wars. Your demands they join NATO and the EU are just empire building, you are just as bad as Putin.

An Empire is a top-down structure, NATO is an alliance for mutual defense, I'm surprised you did not know this. Do you know who created NATO? It was Joseph Stalin, for without him there would be no NATO. NATO was created because of Russian aggression, it is a reaction to Russia's behavior. Switzerland didn't become neutral as a result of being attacked by an outside force. The logic is unassailable, the more Putin takes away from the Russian half, the more a pro-NATO country the rest of Ukraine becomes, because you subtract all those pro-Russian votes. Also there is fighting between the Russians and Ukrainians. Would you want to live in the same country s your enemies? But I suppose you like a lot of neutral countries around that freeload off of NATO like Switerland. Switzerland is surrounded by NATO countries, yet it doesn't contribute to the common defense.

RobertDyck wrote:

And there are people in Quebec who want that province to split from Canada. But they haven't, and both Quebec and the rest of Canada are better for it. Martienne has said the remaining oblasts of Ukraine do not have Russian majority like Crimea. I don't know, but I believe it. The Quebec separtists are very loud, but they're a minority. A significant minority, but a minority. I wouldn't be surprised if the same exists in the four oblasts currently in dispute.

They wouldn't be a minority if they had their own country. If you drew the right borders around them, they would in fact make up the majority, that's called Gerrymandering.

RobertDyck wrote:

Poland absorb Ukraine? Uhhh, no. Would you want Mexico to absorb Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada, California?

Why not if Russia can do it, their are a bunch of people in Ukraine voting to join Russia, why not also have a vote on whether the western half should join Poland? If they join Poland they would own 50% of the country in he next election, that' a better deal than they would get as part of Russia, they also get to keep their Latin alphabet and the Catholic Church. I don't know why you want to fuse two parts that don't want to be together. How about the French and the Germans living in the same country? You want to create a neutral country that's 50% Russian, why? The Russians want to be with Russia, I they go, then the rest of Ukaine is not a neutral country! Its simple mathematics. So your worried that Russia might bit off too much and leave the other half to join NATO.

RobertDyck wrote:

I hate to admit it, but giving up any land would most probably result in increased expansionism. Yes, like Hitler. But at this point we can still avoid war. But trying to demand "you win" will only result in war. Any successful solution here means neither Russia nor USA win. Ukraine wins, not some superpower.

Ukraine doesn't win if it gets smaller, that is called losing. If Russia gains some land and pays nothing for it, that is called winning. The only way your going to have a neutral Ukraine is if Russia gives back Crimea, says "sorry" and pays reparations to Ukraine, that is the only way your going to have a Ukraine that's neutral.

RobertDyck wrote:

I remember a past discussion on NewMars. One American member (I don't think it was you, but it was a number of years ago), asked if I want rather have Canada ruled by the UK instead of being ruled by Washington. Of course the answer is neither. Canada is free, we are our own country. We are a member of NATO, but we aren't ruled by NATO.

Well previously you implied that NATO was America's Empire, and that the United States somehow gains by having additional members of NATO. NATO was always a creation in reaction to Russia. If Russia behaves nice like most of the other European countries, then NATO would eventually go away, because it would have no purpose, but Putin's actions gave it new life, don't you see that? For every action their is an opposite reaction. Putin's actions will make NATO stronger! Putin can't conquer Europe without a nuclear war, and the little pieces that is absorbs will only cause the remaining pieces to band together more strongly for mutual defense. Neutrality is no defense, as the Belgians found out during World War II! Switzerland has been lucky so far. Neutrality hasn't worked for the United States either, remember the Peal Harbor attack?

RobertDyck wrote:

Canada is a middle power. Ukraine is not a middle power, but at least the Ukrainians in Ukraine do want to remain free. But freedom means they don't take orders from anyone: not Russia, not USA, not NATO, not EU.

No one's giving them orders except the Russians. Does NATO give orders to Canada? Canada can leave NATO any time it wishes, it is a voluntary alliance. France left NATO I believe under Charles De Gaule.

RobertDyck wrote:

Still to this day Canada is part of the British Commonwealth, although I don't know anything the Commonwealth has done. But because of Quebec, Canada is also part of the Francophonie, the French equivalent to the British Commonwealth. It's structure is different, but the point is Canada is a member of both. So why can't Ukraine have economic ties to both EU and the Eurasian Economic Community? Or Eurasian Economic Union (EAU), expected to replace EAEC in 2015?

Why should it have to at the point of a gun? If its not a voluntary union, then its not worth joining NATO is a voluntary Alliance, and its best recruiting agent has been the Soviet Union and now Russia. It can truly be said that if it weren't for Russia, their would be no NATO. NATO was specifically created to deal with the Russian threat, and another advantage is it has nuclear weapons. and by joining other countries keep the number of nuclear powers down. Would you rather have an independent unaffiliated Ukraine with its own nuclear weapons?

RobertDyck · 2014-04-20 08:47:46

Tom Kalbfus wrote:

They wouldn't be a minority if they had their own country. If you drew the right borders around them, they would in fact make up the majority, that's called Gerrymandering.

Are you trying to say that about Quebec? The separatists want all the land they had at their height: which includes all of what is now Quebec, plus all of southern Ontario, northern and western shores of lake Superior (the most populated part of north-western Ontario), Labrador, most of Minnesota, all of Wisconsin, Michigan, Illinois, Indiana, northern New York state, and parts of Ohio, Kentucky. Laughable? Definitely. Quebec only claimed that land for a brief time, while they were a colony of France. Their territory started to shrink after 1774. But that's what the separatists want.

One issue during the 1995 referendum was if Quebec separated from Canada, then parts of Quebec could separate from them and remain part of Canada. The separatists didn't like that, but the federal government of Canada said any argument that the Parti Quebecois used to claim they could separate from Canada, applied to these regions separated from them. Prior to the referendum, two regions held their own. The Ungava peninsula voted 95% to remain part of Canada, and the Cree voted 98%. Furthermore, there was talk of the northern part of the city of Montreal remaining with Canada. The Parti Quebecois didn't like that; they claimed all of Quebec. But they lost the referendum.

Back to Ukraine: the reason for raising Quebec was an example. I don't have census figures for the oblasts of Ukraine, so can't say how gerrymandering would work. But dividing is not the answer. Putin has argued that before Ukraine joined the Soviet Union, those oblasts he wants weren't part of Ukraine. Actually, the northern part of Odessa oblast was, along with western parts of Kharkivs'ka and Donetsk. According to maps in Wikipedia. Whether it was the Cossack Hetmanate, or part of the Polish empire, or Lithuania. Europe changed a lot over the centuries. World War 1 was supposed to stop that.

Last edited by RobertDyck (2014-04-20 13:42:05)

Tom Kalbfus · 2014-04-20 09:54:37

I would argue that its not really part of the Ukraine if it is filled with Russians. If a people are a minority in their own country, they aren't really in their own country. So I would say the Ukrainian part of Ukraine needs to separate and form its own country, and if the EU won't take them as a member, it can already join with an established member, Poland. Besides if its going to be annexed, why should Russia get the whole thing? Surely parts of Ukraine used to also belong to Poland, and if thats not a good enough reason, would it change you mind if Poland got its own nuclear weapons, that way Russia has nukes and Poland has nukes that would make them equal.

RobertDyck · 2014-04-20 10:19:07

Tom, you contradict yourself. You previously raised the analogy of Hitler, that appeasing the expansionist dictator only encourages him to take more. Now you want to give up territory. You even propose completely surrendering to a foreign power.

I'm reminded of advice from Josh to ignore you.

RobertDyck · 2014-04-21 02:15:37

Poking around. I discovered the website for Yuzhmash. They manufacture the Zenit rocket, used by Boeing for Sea Lauch. I didn't know they participate in manufacture of the Antares launch vehicle, used by Orbital Sciences Corporation to launch their Cygnus cargo ship, used to resupply ISS. According to Yuzhmash, they manufacture the first stage.

I have commented many times that strap-on boosters for Energia are the first stage of Zenit. According to Wikipedia...

Missiles produced at Yuzhmash included the first nuclear armed Soviet rocket R-5M (SS-3 'Shyster'), the R-12 Dvina (SS-4 'Sandal'), the R-14 Chusovaya (SS-5 'Skean'), the first widely deployed Soviet ICBM R-16 (SS-7 'Saddler'), the R-36 (SS-9 'Scarp'), the MR-UR-100 Sotka (SS-17 'Spanker'), and the R-36M (SS-18 'Satan'). During the Soviet era, the plant was capable of producing of up to 120 ICBMs a year. In the late 1980s, Yuzhmash was selected to be the main production facility of the RT-2UTTKh Topol-M ICBM (SS-27 "Sickle B").

The 'SS' number is a NATO designation. And English language names that start with an 'S' are all American names, adopted by NATO. Russian names are the ones not in parentheses.

Yuzhmash is located in Dnipropetrovsk. That oblast is surrounded by the three oblasts currently in trouble. Yes, I'm implying Dnipropetrovsk is next. Ukraine would have a major issue with this.

After the beginning of perestroika, demand for such production declined significantly, and Yuzhmash has been partly converted for civil machinery. Trolleybus models include the articulated YuMZ T1 (1992–1998) and its non-articulated brother, the YuMZ T2. The T2 continues to be produced alongside the more modern YuMZ E-186 which features a low floor cabin.
...
Pivdenmash is now one of the largest industrial enterprises in Ukraine. As of January 2003, Pivdenmash employed 13,000 workers. In 2001 it sold production worth 335.6 million hryvne ($62.7 million as of December 2001), although in 2002 its sales decreased to 122.1 million hryvne ($22.8 million as of December 2002). In addition to production facilities in Dnipropetrovsk, Pivdenne Production Association includes the Pavlohrad Mechanical Plant, which specialized in producing solid-fuel missiles. Pivdenmash's importance was further bolstered by its links to Ukraine's former President Leonid Kuchma, who worked at Pivdenmash between 1975 and 1992. He was the plant's general director from 1986 to 1991.

Tom Kalbfus · 2014-04-21 06:47:17

RobertDyck wrote:

Tom, you contradict yourself. You previously raised the analogy of Hitler, that appeasing the expansionist dictator only encourages him to take more. Now you want to give up territory. You even propose completely surrendering to a foreign power.
I'm reminded of advice from Josh to ignore you.

The Ukrainians want independence from Russia, what is the easiest way to get it? If the Russians force Ukraine to be "Neutral" that is not independence that is called Finlandization, if any other country is telling them what foreign policy they must have ad what alliances they can and cannot enter for their own survival, that is not independence. Finland was not an independent country during the Cold War, it was told it must be neutral in order to keep Soviet troops off its territory, therefore it was a defacto Soviet satellite. Stalin also suggested that Germany could be reunited with East Germany if it were to be a neutral country, imposing conditions on other countries that they be neutral or they will be invaded is not independence, that is simply exercising a lesser degree of control over that country than over a Warsaw Pact Nation such as Poland.

So if Ukrainians, real Ukrainians want independence from Russia, they may have to accept a smaller country in exchange for getting rid of those Russian voters in their country that don't want it. That seems fairly reasonable to me. Besides Ukraine was neutral before this happened, and its President wanted his country to move more closely to Russia, thus violating its neutrality, and the Ukrainians in Kiev rebelled and overthrew him, the Russians in the East then rebelled or were prompted to by Putin and then Russian troops moved in and took over Crimea and held a vote there, and now they are attempting to do the same thing in the rest of East Crimea. It seems to me that having a country where half its residents want to be part of Russia is not conducive to independence from Russia, so getting rid of those ethnic Russians that want to live under Putin so you can be free of Putin has a price. One way to get rid of them would be to let Eastern Ukraine go its own separate way along with Crimea, that way you don't have to deal with those fascist ethnic Russian Voters that want to live under a dictator named Putin who would then take your civil rights away when your country became part of Russia.

The other way to get rid of them would be to force them to leave your country at the point of a gun, and Ukraine doesn't have so many guns, and with the Russian Army looking down on them, which one of these two things is easier to do?

The lesser of two evils if you want to establish independence from Russia would be to accept a smaller Ukraine who's majority are ethnic Ukrainians, and not have this pro-Russian population calling for the whole country's annexation. Having a smaller country is better than no country or being forced to live as a minority as a part of Russia or in a satellite state controlled by Russia. Seems to me Putin made a bad move by moving into Crimea and calling for elections for independence and annexation of Crimea. The West should take advantage of this to limit the territorial gains Russia might make as Putin established the precedent of secession, we should then accept Ukraine into NATO with its ethnic Ukrainian majority that results from Putin's subtraction of the Russian population through its annexation of the eastern parts of Ukraine. My main objection has been towards Putin's method of achieving this rather than the overall goal. If the Russians want to be Russian, I don't see how we can force them to be Ukrainians. If there are to be elections held to decide this, they shouldn't be held under Russian guns, that is the main point. If Putin wants to force a separation of the Russian parts from the rest of Ukraine, we should later deny the Russians from getting western Ukraine as well by allowing that country to join NATO. If what Russia wants is just the Russian parts of Ukraine, then this is not a great problem, the problem is we don't know what Putin wants. Hitler didn't settle for just the German parts of Czechoslovakia after all, he used it as an excuse to invade Czechoslovakia, but after his troops got in, he took the whole thing, as he got no resistance from the West, meaning non-German parts of Europe. Germany in my opinion excluded itself as part of the West when they accepted Hitler as their dictator. The West by Definition being Democratic. Anything that is not democratic is not part of the West in my opinion.

Last edited by Tom Kalbfus (2014-04-21 06:55:26)

Tom Kalbfus · 2014-04-21 07:00:42

RobertDyck wrote:

Poking around. I discovered the website for Yuzhmash. They manufacture the Zenit rocket, used by Boeing for Sea Lauch. I didn't know they participate in manufacture of the Antares launch vehicle, used by Orbital Sciences Corporation to launch their Cygnus cargo ship, used to resupply ISS. According to Yuzhmash, they manufacture the first stage.
I have commented many times that strap-on boosters for Energia are the first stage of Zenit. According to Wikipedia...
Missiles produced at Yuzhmash included the first nuclear armed Soviet rocket R-5M (SS-3 'Shyster'), the R-12 Dvina (SS-4 'Sandal'), the R-14 Chusovaya (SS-5 'Skean'), the first widely deployed Soviet ICBM R-16 (SS-7 'Saddler'), the R-36 (SS-9 'Scarp'), the MR-UR-100 Sotka (SS-17 'Spanker'), and the R-36M (SS-18 'Satan'). During the Soviet era, the plant was capable of producing of up to 120 ICBMs a year. In the late 1980s, Yuzhmash was selected to be the main production facility of the RT-2UTTKh Topol-M ICBM (SS-27 "Sickle B").
The 'SS' number is a NATO designation. And English language names that start with an 'S' are all American names, adopted by NATO. Russian names are the ones not in parentheses.
Yuzhmash is located in Dnipropetrovsk. That oblast is surrounded by the three oblasts currently in trouble. Yes, I'm implying Dnipropetrovsk is next. Ukraine would have a major issue with this.
After the beginning of perestroika, demand for such production declined significantly, and Yuzhmash has been partly converted for civil machinery. Trolleybus models include the articulated YuMZ T1 (1992–1998) and its non-articulated brother, the YuMZ T2. The T2 continues to be produced alongside the more modern YuMZ E-186 which features a low floor cabin.
...
Pivdenmash is now one of the largest industrial enterprises in Ukraine. As of January 2003, Pivdenmash employed 13,000 workers. In 2001 it sold production worth 335.6 million hryvne ($62.7 million as of December 2001), although in 2002 its sales decreased to 122.1 million hryvne ($22.8 million as of December 2002). In addition to production facilities in Dnipropetrovsk, Pivdenne Production Association includes the Pavlohrad Mechanical Plant, which specialized in producing solid-fuel missiles. Pivdenmash's importance was further bolstered by its links to Ukraine's former President Leonid Kuchma, who worked at Pivdenmash between 1975 and 1992. He was the plant's general director from 1986 to 1991.

if Dnipropetrovsk is Majority Ukrainian then that is a problem for Putin, if it is majority Russian, then one has to decide how to draw the borders of Ukraine, it may be possible to draw the borders in such as way as to include Dnipropetrovsk but still keep the majority of Ukraine as a majority Ukrainian population. Have to look at a map.

I don't know how to post pictures here, its not as easy as copy and paste. Looking at the map, that river might be a natural border, this would give both Ukraine and Russia access to the Black sea and if their are Russians to the east of the Dnieper then too bad, they can move if they don't like it. The other alternative is to allow the Russians to have those outer counties along the east border, as a niggardly approach as they did invade perhaps ceding those would give the rest of Ukraine a majority Ukrainian population. I they ethnic Russians don't like it, they can lump it or move to Russia.

Last edited by Tom Kalbfus (2014-04-21 20:01:33)

RobertDyck · 2014-04-21 07:53:58

Tom Kalbfus wrote:

I don't know how to post pictures here, its not as easy as copy and paste.

You seriously don't know how to use BBCode? Place a tag, surrounded by square brackets.
[ img ] http://blah [ /img ]
But don't include the spaces. I did that so it would show you the code.

To add a link...
[ url ] http://blah [ /url ]

Or a "hot spot", which is text you click on...
[ url=http://blah ] click me [ /url ]

Or for a picture you can click on, combine them...
[ url=http://blah ] [ img ] http://picture [ /img ] [ /url ]

For more BBCode, click the hot spot below. The one that says "BBCode".

Last edited by RobertDyck (2014-04-21 07:55:52)

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#276 2014-04-18 06:55:19

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

#277 2014-04-18 07:34:21

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

#278 2014-04-18 08:34:38

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

#279 2014-04-18 11:25:51

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

#280 2014-04-18 12:00:18

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

#281 2014-04-18 12:06:32

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

#282 2014-04-18 15:16:13

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

#283 2014-04-18 16:19:07

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

#284 2014-04-18 21:15:39

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

#285 2014-04-18 21:34:44

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

#286 2014-04-19 00:40:02

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

#287 2014-04-19 07:35:18

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

#288 2014-04-19 11:54:50

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

#289 2014-04-19 12:53:44

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

#290 2014-04-19 13:51:46

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

#291 2014-04-19 20:44:41

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

#292 2014-04-19 22:25:49

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

#293 2014-04-20 05:09:57

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

#294 2014-04-20 08:47:46

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

#295 2014-04-20 09:54:37

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

#296 2014-04-20 10:19:07

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

#297 2014-04-21 02:15:37

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

#298 2014-04-21 06:47:17

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

#299 2014-04-21 07:00:42

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

#300 2014-04-21 07:53:58

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

Board footer