Martian Periodic Table?

martienne · 2014-04-13 15:43:11

I once saw a periodic table where all the elements known to exist on Mars had been highlighted. Does anyone know which chart I mean and have a link? I can't find it now....
Or perhaps we could easily reproduce it ourselves here?

JoshNH4H · 2014-04-13 16:01:06

There's one for the Moon on this page. I couldn't find a corresponding one for Mars but reasonably every element that exists on Earth also exists on Mars, though I would expect there to be some deficit in the heavier elements on Mars relative to Earth. Also because there were fewer hydrogeological processes on Mars (these are the kinds that make ores, generally) there probably won't be concentrations of some of the rarer ones like there are on Earth.

SpaceNut · 2014-04-13 19:28:45

Nicely done Josh, a very nice find...

I located some that are meant to be instructional for kids for homework but I did find one that was unique http://www.periodictable.com/ for Earths minerals...

http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/odyssey/missio … ments/grs/

The gamma ray spectrometer has measured the abundance and distribution of many elements of the periodic table, including hydrogen, silicon, iron, potassium, thorium, and chlorine. Knowing what elements are at or near the surface gives detailed information about how Mars has changed over time. To determine the elemental makeup of the martian surface, the experiment uses gamma ray spectrometer and two neutron detectors.

martienne · 2014-04-14 01:12:57

Thanks! What about some mineral / element that doesn't exist on Earth? As far as I am aware nothings been discovered so far, but what are the chances?

JoshNH4H · 2014-04-14 01:24:01

For elements, zero. Every stable element exists on earth in some amount and this is the same for Mars or any other large body. Meanwhile, there may be some minerals on Mars that don't exist or haven't yet been found on Earth but I wouldn't expect their properties or composition to vary much from the ones with which we are familiar.

martienne · 2014-04-14 03:51:38

JoshNH4H wrote:

For elements, zero. Every stable element exists on earth in some amount and this is the same for Mars or any other large body. Meanwhile, there may be some minerals on Mars that don't exist or haven't yet been found on Earth but I wouldn't expect their properties or composition to vary much from the ones with which we are familiar.

Thanks! So impressed by your skills, from all your posts. PerhapsI shouldhave known the answer to this from school chemistry, but it seemed to me that there might be something on Mars that didn't exist on Earth. Is it the same for the whole of the solar system?

My thinking is; is there anything on Mars that it might be economically viable to "export" back to Earth? Otherwise a settlement would never realistically be anything more than a science/research location, right? (Unless a terraforming project was pulled off - but I can't see who would invest in a project that would drain funds for countless generations and have no predictable outcome... )

Terraformer · 2014-04-14 06:18:49

Probably not, actually. Not with asteroid mining for metals. But you don't need exports, not when there's a steady flow of immigrants to sell stuff to...

As far as the entire solar system goes, I can only think of antimatter mining around the giant planets.

martienne · 2014-04-14 07:24:03

Terraformer wrote:

Probably not, actually. Not with asteroid mining for metals. But you don't need exports, not when there's a steady flow of immigrants to sell stuff to...
As far as the entire solar system goes, I can only think of antimatter mining around the giant planets.

Life on Mars would be insanely expensive though, if there is nothing that can be economically produced or or mined locally.

Importing things to Mars would add so insanely to the price that it doesn't even bear thinking about.

Compare with remote settlements on Greenland, in Northern Canada, Alaska or off-road Siberia.

Something as basic as Corn flakes, a chocolate bar or a bed have to be flown in half the year, or arrive by barge to these communities. So things cost 5 times more than they would do in a mainland location in the same country.

And it's a huge problem, because these very settlements often don't have anything valuable to sell - so the only people who can stand the lifestyle are native population that can subsistence hunt... Or they have ONE product that everyone is dependent on, like a mine or some state supported business.

In Mars, the post import price wouldn't be x3 or x5, but x1000 -- right?
So unless Mars can manufacture most of what it needs locally, and has something to sell, it just wouldn't work financially. It doesn't add up!

There is of course the model of either state or corporate sponsorship from Earth. But that makes the population completely dependent on the goodwill of whoever ships them the necessities. Who would want to leave themselves at the mercy of a corporation or a state?

I can think of one example that is vaguely comparable: In Spitsbergen, in the Arctic, there is a Russian settlement called Barentsburg. Conditions there are extreme to say the least.
In the past (USSR times) expenses with keeping that area supplied was not a problem. Planned economy meant they just set aside the budget and arrangement for keeping the settlement running (it was partly about running a mine there, and partly about just having a populated town in that area). Nothing cost anything - people got everything they needed for free from "shops". No luxury but the basics for an acceptable lifestyle. Everything was paid for; all people had to do was go to work and do their job.

Then the Soviet Union fell on hard time, likewise Russia. People there were so badly neglected for a while that they had to contact the Norwegian settlement in the same group of islands and ask for help with food etc. Equipment didin't get maintenance and there was an accident in the mine.

Eventually things improved and a corporation took over the village. Now the corporation is replicating exactly what the state used to do; running things like school, healthcare, and shops, and it is again. But the people are completely at the mercy of this corporation.

And at the end of the day, the people there are not half as vulnerable and isolated that people on Mars would be! I am worried that unless Mars can somehow pay for itself either through self-sufficiency or through a trade balance, whoever lives there will give the word "corporate slave" a whole new meaning, or would be forced into an extremely precarious dependence of the the goodwill of one or more nation states. Once they have moved there it may not even be possible to move back, so the issue is quite monumental.

I think it's practically make-or-break for a serious future for Mars, whether it can pay for itself, or go it alone. If every tool, piece of clothing, gadget or piece of machinery has to be imported at economic loss, then I don't think a permanent settlement of any size worth mentioning is going to be be feasible. Certainly not attractive.

JoshNH4H · 2014-04-14 07:45:41

martienne wrote:

JoshNH4H wrote:
For elements, zero. Every stable element exists on earth in some amount and this is the same for Mars or any other large body. Meanwhile, there may be some minerals on Mars that don't exist or haven't yet been found on Earth but I wouldn't expect their properties or composition to vary much from the ones with which we are familiar.
Thanks! So impressed by your skills, from all your posts. PerhapsI shouldhave known the answer to this from school chemistry, but it seemed to me that there might be something on Mars that didn't exist on Earth. Is it the same for the whole of the solar system?
My thinking is; is there anything on Mars that it might be economically viable to "export" back to Earth? Otherwise a settlement would never realistically be anything more than a science/research location, right? (Unless a terraforming project was pulled off - but I can't see who would invest in a project that would drain funds for countless generations and have no predictable outcome... )

Thanks Martine, I really appreciate it! Much of what I know I actually learned right here on the fora, so it's certainly the least I could do to pass it on

While new elements and minerals do not exist on Mars, there could be a difference in quantity. For example, on Earth, Copper has been mined for about ten thousand years. It used to be possible to pull it out of the ground in a pure state, but we exhausted those reserves a long time ago. For this reason, depending on the price of copper, it could conceivably be feasible to mine copper on Mars and export it to Earth. Given, the price of copper at this time is $6.75/kg, so this would probably not pay off. However, if we were talking about gold, platinum, ruthenium, palladium, etc. (maybe even silver), it's a lot easier to make a case that these materials might be mined for export.

Assuming refueling at Phobos and/or Demos, it's a lot easier to get to Earth space from Mars than Earth. In fact, it's about 4.5 km/s compared to 9.5 km/s as the maximum delta-V. This is much, much easier to do. Anyway, my feeling is that Mars, and not the Moon or Earth, will be the source of much of the physical capital used to construct megaprojects in Earth's hill sphere. The reason for this is that Mars is more amenable to human settlement than the Moon, so it will have a larger population, more developed manufacturing facilities, a better ability to serve the needs of its clientele, and ultimately the ability to develop higher quality manufactured goods. For example, if we want to build a concentrated solar power plant in LEO, it will be operated by Terrans, and built from Lunar materials (some Martian and Terran ones, too, if something is more readily available elsewhere)with Martian machines.

Intellectual property also has no mass, and so will be a staple of Martian exports.

Terraformer · 2014-04-14 15:29:34

Martienne, I don't think Mars will be reliant on imports from Terra. But there's a difference between being able to manufacture stuff yourself and being able to export it at a profit...

As far as intellectual property goes... urggh. No. Just... no. You may as well cite tax as a possible revenue source.

JoshNH4H · 2014-04-14 16:08:01

Well, if you can't change the system you can at least exploit it for a good cause. Even if actual patents are not made, Martians could make good money from consulting with Terran organizations and helping them to best use their inventions.

SpaceNut · 2014-04-20 18:06:08

Spinoffs from research for mars will eventually make it into everday life as they have from the Apollo era and since. Many are not so much from the direct use of an item but more so from inderect useage in other applications.

You asked about mineral content of mars so in this document you will find such a table. http://www.stanford.edu/~cantwell/Recen … 3-3899.pdf

For rocks simular to earths her is this one http://ssi.org/2010/SM14-proceedings/In … rovich.pdf

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#1 2014-04-13 15:43:11

Martian Periodic Table?

#2 2014-04-13 16:01:06

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#3 2014-04-13 19:28:45

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#4 2014-04-14 01:12:57

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#5 2014-04-14 01:24:01

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#6 2014-04-14 03:51:38

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#7 2014-04-14 06:18:49

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#8 2014-04-14 07:24:03

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#10 2014-04-14 15:29:34

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