Ukraine & Crimea

Vincent · 2014-03-31 15:41:28

Vincent wrote:

RobertDyck wrote:
Vincent wrote:
Why does America care?
Are you trying to start World War 3? You're messing in their back yard.
They had it coming.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ojRQ15My7s

America is not just about the White man. The red man was the first warrior....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ojRQ15My7s

RobertDyck · 2014-03-31 15:46:47

Vincent wrote:

They had it coming.....

And Putin's response to that attitude...

Last edited by RobertDyck (2014-03-31 15:58:14)

Vincent · 2014-03-31 15:50:44

Cool, lets get it on....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJYSu2OVCGM

RobertDyck · 2014-03-31 15:56:34

Your songs don't appear to relate to anything. The Partridge Family playing "I think I love you"? What is that supposed to mean?

Vincent · 2014-03-31 16:08:32

Post content removed due to language and flaming. In the future, please refrain from the use of such language and personal attacks.

-JoshNH4H

Last edited by JoshNH4H (2014-03-31 17:43:01)

RobertDyck · 2014-03-31 16:21:37

I'm not even going to click on your link this time. If you have something to say, just say it. No music.

What you typed is you love Putin. You don't hate him, you love him. Because you consider murdering people to be fun. You want another war.

Vincent · 2014-03-31 16:27:26

RobertDyck wrote:

I'm not even going to click on your link this time. If you have something to say, just say it. No music.
What you typed is you love Putin. You don't hate him, you love him. Because you consider murdering people to be fun. You want another war.

You did not listen to the song because you do not want to know. America does not forget. The battle continues...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gh1m0eC1004

Vincent · 2014-03-31 16:46:24

Vincent wrote:

RobertDyck wrote:
I'm not even going to click on your link this time. If you have something to say, just say it. No music.
What you typed is you love Putin. You don't hate him, you love him. Because you consider murdering people to be fun. You want another war.
You did not listen to the song because you do not want to know. America does not forget. The battle continues...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gh1m0eC1004

I said I love Putin because he is a great warrior. He stands up for what he believes. That is rare in this age. It will be an honor to do battle with him.

Vincent

Tom Kalbfus · 2014-03-31 16:54:25

Unfortunately Putin is dishonest, he does not keep his word. I don't like people who lie! Russia has been for the past century or so a nation of pathological liars, the Soviet Union was a big lie, it was not what it claims to have been. I don't like Putin lying about Russians being persecuted and using that as an excuse for an invasion! The invasion occurred because people who wanted Ukraine to join the EU overthrew Putins puppet government that did not! Also the Soviet Union claimed to be a Federation, but it was really an alias for the Russian Empire and everything was controlled from Moscow. So until Putin can admit that, he'll get no respect from me! I like people who deal forthrightly and who put all their cards on the table, none of this sneaky backstabbing, that is beneath the dignity of a European!

Tom Kalbfus · 2014-03-31 16:57:30

Vincent wrote:

Vincent wrote:
RobertDyck wrote:
Are you trying to start World War 3? You're messing in their back yard.
They had it coming.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ojRQ15My7s
America is not just about the White man. The red man was the first warrior....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ojRQ15My7s

Actually American Indians aren't really red. Chances are, any Europeans who lived during the last Ice Age would have looked just like the Indians, white people came within the last 10,000 years, before that Europeans had brown skin just like people in East Asia.

Vincent · 2014-03-31 17:01:56

Tom Kalbfus wrote:

Unfortunately Putin is dishonest, he does not keep his word. I don't like people who lie! Russia has been for the past century or so a nation of pathological liars, the Soviet Union was a big lie, it was not what it claims to have been. I don't like Putin lying about Russians being persecuted and using that as an excuse for an invasion! The invasion occurred because people who wanted Ukraine to join the EU overthrew Putins puppet government that did not! Also the Soviet Union claimed to be a Federation, but it was really an alias for the Russian Empire and everything was controlled from Moscow. So until Putin can admit that, he'll get no respect from me! I like people who deal forthrightly and who put all their cards on the table, none of this sneaky backstabbing, that is beneath the dignity of a European!

You are correct. The ego seeks a reason to kill its brother. Mine is no different.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpZJD6deEGc

Tom Kalbfus · 2014-03-31 17:04:39

RobertDyck wrote:

Tom Kalbfus wrote:
Russia shares one trait with your country Canada, its under populated.
Well, the Soviet Union had the same population as the US before it broke up. Now Russia has half. The other half is in the other 14 "republics".
Your idea is interesting. Homesteading. But you forget how cold Siberia is. I live in Winnipeg, just 60 miles north of North Dakota. Once I looked at weather statistics. I saw a TV show of an American dating a Russian woman in Moscow, complaining about the cold. They walked with coats open, beside a river that was still liquid. That isn't cold! Here the river freezes over, several feet of ice. The sports car club has ice races on lakes and rivers. The website for the Weather Channel has average daily high and average daily low for each month of the year. The cities in Russia that most closely match Winnipeg are Omsk or Tomsk, both in Siberia. No where west of the Ural mountains gets this cold. This year is a cold year; it didn't set any record low temperatures, but the number of cold days (not nights) was greater. Ground froze to greater depth, water mains are freezing, a few homes are without water. March is always a month of melting snow, full blown winter at the beginning of the month, but most of the snow gone at the end. First weekend of April is usually the last snow storm. Then what's left melts in a week. But this is March 31, and most of the snow is still here. Right now it's -10°C, wind chill is -22. Winnipeg normally has snow from the beginning of November to end of March. It's chilly in April. Growing season is short.
So you are advocating Russia give away land for homesteading in Siberia. Omsk and Tomsk are both in southern Siberia. Omsk is roughly 100km (60 miles) north of the border with Kazakhstan. Most of Siberia is north of that, meaning colder than Winnipeg. There's a reason why both Canada and Siberia are thinly populated. Arable land in western Canada is a triangle, a small portion of southern Manitoba extending north-west to the Rocky mountains. In Alberta, it's arable pretty far north, almost to the border with Yukon. That's due to soil and rain as well as temperature. Northern boundaries of Canadian western provinces are 60° latitude. Moscow is 55° north, but warm because of the Gulf Stream. West of the Urals, temperature is as cold as Canada west of the Rockies. Don't expect northern Siberia to be arable.

Compared to Mars though, Siberia is a paradise! You know Russia can offer free land to a bunch of GreenPeace advocates that believe global warming is just around the corner. So they can get their piece of frozen tundra and wait for global warming so they can begin farming it! Somehow I believe 40 years from now, Siberia will still be cold. I don't think I will live to see Siberia become a tropical paradise.

Vincent · 2014-03-31 17:12:53

Post content deleted due to racism. This is strike 2, if I have to tell you again I'm bringing out the ban-hammer.

-Josh

Last edited by JoshNH4H (2014-03-31 17:42:41)

Vincent · 2014-03-31 17:45:16

America does not forget Iran. You best spin those centrifuges...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8bC1DEYbI4

Vincent · 2014-03-31 17:55:04

Vincent wrote:

Post content deleted due to racism. This is strike 2, if I have to tell you again I'm bringing out the ban-hammer.
-Josh

Truth hurts don't it.....

Vincent · 2014-03-31 18:06:07

Vincent wrote:

Vincent wrote:
Post content deleted due to racism. This is strike 2, if I have to tell you again I'm bringing out the ban-hammer.
-Josh
Truth hurts don't it.....

Strictly speaking Islam is a religion, not a race....

Tom Kalbfus · 2014-03-31 19:42:20

I don't know what your trying to do Vincent. Try using a bit more tact. I know the Middle East is not a peaceful place, I don't see much hope for peace there until their oil advantage dries up. Oil = money = power, and the people who want power are driving the violence and the fanaticism there. The fanatics are just pawns manipulated by the power brokers because they are so easy to manipulate. Religion can be a means of control. Osama Bin Ladin can be compared to Lenin, they were both revolutionaries in it for power. Al Qaeda are the equivalent to the Russian Bolsheviks, they want to overturn the existing order so they can rule. Russia is trying to use oil as a weapon too, but oil can be used as our weapon as well, if we frack for oil and increase the world wide supply of it so as to reduce Russia's wealth. Without oil propping up the Russian economy, Vladimir Putin or hopefully his successor will be forced to reform the Russian economy. The Russians have many talented people, and the real wealth of Russia is its people, not its natural resources, though Russia has considerable amounts of the later, but then so do we. It takes time to go from a command economy to a market oriented one. 72 years of Communism brought Russia to this point, The Russians were too impatient. Boris Yeltsin, though courageous, was a lousy manager. Democracy and capitalism take time to work. What Russia needs is good leadership, and most of the leaders in Russia are corrupt, they need to bring in an outsider. I think they could do worse than to make Mitt Romney their President, I think he would know what to do. Sure he'll need translators, but so what?

JoshNH4H · 2014-03-31 20:11:16

Vincent wrote:

Vincent wrote:
Vincent wrote:
Post content deleted due to racism. This is strike 2, if I have to tell you again I'm bringing out the ban-hammer.
-Josh
Truth hurts don't it.....
Strictly speaking Islam is a religion, not a race....

I believe your post also mentioned arabs? Regardless, it's unacceptable.

RobertDyck · 2014-03-31 21:43:12

Tom Kalbfus wrote:

Compared to Mars though, Siberia is a paradise!

Good excuse to bring the discussion back to Mars. I did come up with a couple ideas a few years ago. One was to genetically engineer evergreen trees to have black bark and black needles, antifreeze in its sap, and even extrude antifreeze from roots. Plant these up wind from Winnipeg. Since we're living in global warming, the idea is to deliberately cause global warming where we need it. Black trees should collect more heat, warming air.

The other idea was to build arable soil on the east side of Lake Winnipeg, and the Interlake (between Lake Winnipeg and Lake Manitoba). Those areas are the same latitude as arable land in Saskatchewan and Alberta, but poor soil. The east side is Canadian Shield: bedrock at the surface, soil just a few inches deep in low areas. Boreal Forest grows there, dominated by Black Spruce. My idea was to blast to a depth of 2 metres, create a flat bottom pan in bedrock. Grid the blasted rubble to rock flour, and fill the rock pan. Further dig pits in the floor of the rock pan at regular intervals, and fill with a slow sand filter. Place an immersion pump at the bottom to pump up water. Place the exit hose across the surface, with no venturi and slow water flow to prevent aeration. A solar panel on a rod at each pump would provide power, with a battery that can survive winter. (Car battery?) It doesn't have to operate in winter, just survive. Then flood, and plant sphagnum moss and cyanobacteria, plants for a Manitoba peat bog. The peat will generate acid, the pump will circulate acid through the rock flour. That acid should convert rock flour to clay in a number of years. A mixture of clay, peat, and loess or rock flour is considered ideal soil. I tried an experiment in an aquarium, after 6 months it dissolved so much rock that alkali pH killed the peat. One solution is to lime water treatment. Ironically, adding one type of lime causes so much precipitation that total lime is reduced. Hydrated lime sludge that precipitates out can be baked with an electric oven to recycle into the additive needed. So net result is it removes lime: calcium and magnesium. After the peat has finished its work, the bog can be drained. The result will be very acidic soil. That can be amended by adding lime. So the lime that was removed can be added back. The reason for starting with 2 metre depth of rock flour is to finish with 2 metre deep soil. That's what wheat needs.

This would start by clear cutting all the trees. Sell the logs, but keep leaves, needles, and twigs. Run any large branches can can't be sold through wood chipper. Keep this to spread on top so wind doesn't blow away the rock flour. And keep any existing soil, including moss. Add that first, then chips/twigs.

When I mentioned this here in Winnipeg, reaction has been generally negative. Environmentalists don't like the idea of converting forest into farms. And some people claim those who live there won't like it. But very few people do live there. Turns out the east side has native issues, the entire region is contested with land claims. Consequently absolutely no development, not even a gravel road. Even the government owned electric utility gave up trying to put a power line through there. Arg!

But could Russia do this in Siberia? Terraforming Earth; the media calls it Geoforming.

RobertDyck · 2014-04-01 13:09:03

Reading RT answered a few questions. The Russian military has taken control of all Ukrainian navy ships and military aircraft in Crimea. source They encouraged soldiers to swear allegiance to Russia, but any who didn't were allowed to return to Ukraine. However, all weapons were ceased.

Another article accuses the US of 'US looking for a major enemy to justify its defence spending'. Comments from Vincent do sound like that, but I don't think Vincent is part of the US government. I'm sure this is true of the military-industrial complex, but please don't let Congress fall into this trap. I have pointed out before, the last time the US federal government had a balanced budget was year 2000. At that time total military spending was $288 billion. Under George W. military and national security rose to $700 billion for 2008, and $799 billion for 2009. Year 2010 was the first budget approved by President Obama, total military budget that year was $901 billion. And some people wonder why the US is broke. The Soviet Union economy collapsed due to the arms race with Ronald Regan's Star Wars program; please don't fall into your own trap. For 2014 the budget for military and national security has been trimmed to $647 billion, but when you apply inflation for year 2000 budget to today you get $392.67 billion. The US has to cut a lot more. The banking collapse of 2008 was caused by Congress ordering banks to find a creative way to fund the US deficit. Their solution was junk mortgages. Details were concocted by bank executives, but Congress ordered them to do something. George W. ordered the Fed to print money out of nothing to pay government debts before the banking collapse happened. That caused massive inflation, and devalued the US dollar. Continuing to over spend will only cause another collapse as severe as 2008. But this time Europe won't be able to bail out the US, and China just won't. Don't look to Canada; with a population and economy only 1/10th the size of the US, Canada just can't. The US must clean up its own mess. 2008 was the worst recession since the Great Depression, if it happens again it will be a Depression. Doing what I said is only the beginning; the US deficit for 2014 is $744 billion. So the US has to do this and more. But military and national security spending is 54% of discretionary spending. Not mandatory, just discretionary. That means cuts have to start with the military.

GW Johnson · 2014-04-01 15:18:51

There's no doubt the US spends too much on defense this long after the 9-11-01 attack. But, while defense may be over 50% of discretionary spending, discretionary is but a tiny fraction of total spending. The mandated items, mostly things like social security, medicare, and medicaid, dominate that picture. Cutting defense cannot possibly fix this. The numbers are simply not there.

The mandated spending items dominate quite frankly because congress has been demonstrably too stupid, and too self-absorbed in over-exaggerated election politics, to figure out better ways to accomplish these otherwise-worthwhile objectives. In particular, social security was stand-alone self sufficient from the 1930's to the 1960's, until congress raided that till and replaced its assets with IOU's. Damn them.

As for "printing money out of nothing", there are only two ways to carry on a program of deficit spending: (1) inflate the currency by printing too much of it, or (2) borrow from outside the country. Both are traps. Inflating the currency is the root cause of the late 1970's up-to-18% inflation in the US. Its effects were quick to manifest, and very deleterious, which is why we do not do that anymore. Any politician who proposes that in the US is, even today, very likely to be killed.

Borrowing is the delayed-action trap. It takes awhile for interest-compounding to overwhelm you. That is, in fact, what overwhelmed so many countries in the EU in the last few years, like Greece. It's beginning to show up here in the US: our interest payments are now too big a portion of GDP to be considered even short-term sustainable. Fundamentally, this approach is unsustainable for more than just a few years at a time. But you do get those few years, if you have to do this.

Very unpopularly these days, I would also point out that it has been conclusively demonstrated since the 1930's that "austerity" is not an effective policy for combating economic depression. Economic depression when you MUST deficit-spend. Period. Lesson of history. But, that solution presupposes you are not already massively-in-debt. And, THAT'S exactly what's wrong, this time around.

The failure here (in the US and many EU countries, and in Japan, and in some others), is not putting away surpluses during the good times, so that borrowing during the bad times is not so catastrophic in terms of total accumulated debt that must be serviced. That's what exaggerated election politics does: waste the surpluses as pork, instead of socking them away against future need, like responsible folk.

This is based on the 4th conservation law. There's conservation of mass, momentum, and energy. And, for the 4th, there's conservation of money, as any private citizen, in any country on Earth, already knows. I'm no professional economist, but I DO KNOW THAT 4th LAW!

My grandfather once told me (over half a century ago) that the tools for good government were tar, feathers, guns, and ropes. In his day, they still used them, and had "good government" run responsibly. He said in my dad's day we let the lawyers and judges talk us out of using those tools anymore, and to just look at what was happening in my day (again, that was half a century ago). You know, I think he was absolutely right!

I am well-armed, and I do know exactly how to tie that knot (my grandad taught me). Anybody want to learn? Believe it or not, I also found a valid technical use for that same knot on a defense-related R&D item, about 3 decades ago.

GW

Last edited by GW Johnson (2014-04-01 15:59:39)

Tom Kalbfus · 2014-04-01 16:33:09

RobertDyck wrote:

Reading RT answered a few questions. The Russian military has taken control of all Ukrainian navy ships and military aircraft in Crimea. source They encouraged soldiers to swear allegiance to Russia, but any who didn't were allowed to return to Ukraine. However, all weapons were ceased.
Another article accuses the US of 'US looking for a major enemy to justify its defence spending'. Comments from Vincent do sound like that, but I don't think Vincent is part of the US government. I'm sure this is true of the military-industrial complex, but please don't let Congress fall into this trap.

It was Putin's own actions that have made him an enemy. He just took over and snatched a piece of another European country, and the Poles and the Balts are thinking they're next. So tell me how they are wrong and how we can trust Putin, since he already lied about respecting Ukraine's territorial integrity?

RobertDyck wrote:

Another articleI have pointed out before, the last time the US federal government had a balanced budget was year 2000. At that time total military spending was $288 billion. Under George W. military and national security rose to $700 billion for 2008, and $799 billion for 2009. Year 2010 was the first budget approved by President Obama, total military budget that year was $901 billion. And some people wonder why the US is broke. The Soviet Union economy collapsed due to the arms race with Ronald Regan's Star Wars program; please don't fall into your own trap. For 2014 the budget for military and national security has been trimmed to $647 billion, but when you apply inflation for year 2000 budget to today you get $392.67 billion.Another article

So you advocate a policy of letting Russia build its empire at its neighbor's expense. What would your policy be if you were the Polish President, would you advocate the same thing? Also if Ukraine gets absorbed by Russia, should Poland take back its piece of territory it had before World War II? Should it take more?

RobertDyck wrote:

The US has to cut a lot more. The banking collapse of 2008 was caused by Congress ordering banks to find a creative way to fund the US deficit. Their solution was junk mortgages. Details were concocted by bank executives, but Congress ordered them to do something. George W. ordered the Fed to print money out of nothing to pay government debts before the banking collapse happened. That caused massive inflation, and devalued the US dollar. Continuing to over spend will only cause another collapse as severe as 2008. But this time Europe won't be able to bail out the US, and China just won't. Don't look to Canada; with a population and economy only 1/10th the size of the US, Canada just can't. The US must clean up its own mess. 2008 was the worst recession since the Great Depression, if it happens again it will be a Depression. Doing what I said is only the beginning; the US deficit for 2014 is $744 billion. So the US has to do this and more. But military and national security spending is 54% of discretionary spending. Not mandatory, just discretionary. That means cuts have to start with the military.

I don't know, what's more discretionary, spending required for the continuation of our national existence, such as spending on the military, or spending on Social Security and welfare, Your priority is toward social Spending so the Russians will just move across our border like they did with Ukraine! You believe better Red than Dead? you are willing to give up your civil rights, your right to choose your own government just so there is no war with Russia and the Russians let you live and pay your taxes to Moscow, is that what you want? Just like I said, Russia wants to create the "Terran Empire" with its capital in Moscow, as that little video clip from Enterprise showed, are you going to let that happen?

Tom Kalbfus · 2014-04-01 16:39:28

GW Johnson wrote:

There's no doubt the US spends too much on defense this long after the 9-11-01 attack. But, while defense may be over 50% of discretionary spending, discretionary is but a tiny fraction of total spending. The mandated items, mostly things like social security, medicare, and medicaid, dominate that picture. Cutting defense cannot possibly fix this. The numbers are simply not there.

So Russia moving into Ukraine proves that we're spending too much on Defense? How's that? So a new Cold War justifies cutting the Defense Budget? Or do you advocate the United States becoming part of the Russian Empire? Would you like that GW Johnson? Please tell me, how would Putin run our country better than Barack Obama? of course we don't get the opportunity to vote Putin out of office as we do with Obama, you see under this new Russian Empire, we are just subjects, not citizens, we have got to learn how to bow and be good little serfs! So you believe we should give up America's independence and become a colony of Russia, just like we once were a colony of Great Britian, only with fewer rights, and anyone who disagrees gets sent to a labor camp in Siberia, also if Russia takes over the United States, it would probably take over Canada as well. So it might instead be a labor camp in Canada or Alaska!

GW Johnson wrote:

The mandated spending items dominate quite frankly because congress has been demonstrably too stupid, and too self-absorbed in over-exaggerated election politics, to figure out better ways to accomplish these otherwise-worthwhile objectives. In particular, social security was stand-alone self sufficient from the 1930's to the 1960's, until congress raided that till and replaced its assets with IOU's. Damn them.
As for "printing money out of nothing", there are only two ways to carry on a program of deficit spending: (1) inflate the currency by printing too much of it, or (2) borrow from outside the country. Both are traps. Inflating the currency is the root cause of the late 1970's up-to-18% inflation in the US. Its effects were quick to manifest, and very deleterious, which is why we do not do that anymore. Any politician who proposes that in the US is, even today, very likely to be killed.
Borrowing is the delayed-action trap. It takes awhile for interest-compounding to overwhelm you. That is, in fact, what overwhelmed so many countries in the EU in the last few years, like Greece. It's beginning to show up here in the US: our interest payments are now too big a portion of GDP to be considered even short-term sustainable. Fundamentally, this approach is unsustainable for more than just a few years at a time. But you do get those few years, if you have to do this.
Very unpopularly these days, I would also point out that it has been conclusively demonstrated since the 1930's that "austerity" is not an effective policy for combating economic depression. Economic depression when you MUST deficit-spend. Period. Lesson of history. But, that solution presupposes you are not already massively-in-debt. And, THAT'S exactly what's wrong, this time around.
The failure here (in the US and many EU countries, and in Japan, and in some others), is not putting away surpluses during the good times, so that borrowing during the bad times is not so catastrophic in terms of total accumulated debt that must be serviced. That's what exaggerated election politics does: waste the surpluses as pork, instead of socking them away against future need, like responsible folk.
This is based on the 4th conservation law. There's conservation of mass, momentum, and energy. And, for the 4th, there's conservation of money, as any private citizen, in any country on Earth, already knows. I'm no professional economist, but I DO KNOW THAT 4th LAW!
My grandfather once told me (over half a century ago) that the tools for good government were tar, feathers, guns, and ropes. In his day, they still used them, and had "good government" run responsibly. He said in my dad's day we let the lawyers and judges talk us out of using those tools anymore, and to just look at what was happening in my day (again, that was half a century ago). You know, I think he was absolutely right!
I am well-armed, and I do know exactly how to tie that knot (my grandad taught me). Anybody want to learn? Believe it or not, I also found a valid technical use for that same knot on a defense-related R&D item, about 3 decades ago.
GW

RobertDyck · 2014-04-01 17:38:22

The banking collapse of 2008 proves you spent to much on defence. Everything else is an excuse. Don't let Putin bait you into doing something stupid, into causing complete economic collapse of the US.

Some statistics: in August 2006 the US per-capita federal debt hit double Canada's. In August 2009 it hit triple.

Current US financial problems are caused by debt. You can't spend your way out of debt.

Printing money? George W did. Why do you think the value of the US dollar fell so far?

Tom Kalbfus · 2014-04-01 17:44:49

Defense isn't our biggest expenditure item. When Obama began the trillion dollar stimulus, none of it was on defense and it was added to the baseline budget for the next year and the next, no subsequent budgets were passed since, only continuing resolutions which continued the 2009 baseline budget with automatic increases. So if cuts were to be made, they'd be made on programs we don't need for our survival. and believe me we can survive without social security or other social welfare spending, but if we don't have a defense budget, we don't have a country, then Putin can then just walk right in and decide what we spend on without our input. So what do you say, do you want to join the Russian Empire just like Crimea? If we do, then Putin and his government gets to decide what cuts are made, and not us, and if he wants to cut social security and transfer the money to the Russian Military, he can! Is that what you want? Russia is not a democracy, Putin is a dictator, maybe he would run our country better than Obama, and if he wants to cut the budget so it balances, popular opinion won't be a factor, Congress would have no power, it vote meaningless, anyone who goes against Putin will end up in a labor camp up north. Remember previously I talked about Russia joining the United States, what about the opposite happening, what if the United States and Canada joins Russia? If we cut our defense down to zero, that can happen, but then our tax dollars would then go to the defense of the Russian Empire of which we would be a part. if you don't like it too bad, once we give up our independence getting it back won't be easy!

Last edited by Tom Kalbfus (2014-04-01 17:49:29)

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