Ukraine & Crimea

martienne · 2014-03-30 16:17:52

RobertDyck wrote:

However, do you have any news about Russian space shuttle Ptichka ("Птичка")? Orbiter designation OK-1.02? The last image I found on the internet is dated 2005. It was in the orbiter processing building at Baikonur (MZK, building #240) for maintenance. I don't know if the images were before maintenance, but it shows heat shield tiles in really bad shape. The latest images of Baikonur from Google Maps appear to show the roof of the vehicle assembly building (MIK, building #112) has still not been repaired.

According to Russian Wiki, re "Buran 1.02"
1) One of the models is on display in the Gorkovo Park in Moscow.
2) The other one survived the crashed roof of Baikonur and was bought in June 2005 to a Russian-Kazakh company called "Aelita" based in Almaty in Kazakhstan. As of 2009 it was still physically in the MZK hangar.

According to this page http://www.buran.ru/htm/1-02.htm (many engineering pics of the dissection of this model, if you are interested + anything else about it)

Vadim, the site owner, did a bit of digging on this in 2009 and found that the Aelita company has strong links to a South African organisation called SAK Universal Consulting and Project Management (PTY) Ltd. On their page, he found the that they stated their activities as among others "Creating a legal framework for the sale of land on the Moon and Mars" (!!!)

As of 2011, no further news, and the South African company website isn't active anymore. The URL for the info was http://www.sakuniversal.com/site/ru/spa … tinfo.html

So after checking this to answer your question, seems it's yet another tragic and unnecessary casualty of the dissolution of the USSR.

Random picture from inside the 1.02

Last edited by martienne (2014-03-30 16:49:08)

Tom Kalbfus · 2014-03-30 17:35:19

Well it seems that Putin just established a legal framework for the sale of land on the Moon and Mars. If Putin can go back on his word, we can go back on ours, what if we just send a military force to take over Mars and say its ours? if Russia wants Ukraine, don't expect us to adhere to the UN Space Treaty, we're back to the 19th century it seems, so what would be the "19th century" model for colonizing space? Looks like Putin wants to partition Ukraine, much as Russia, Austria, and Prussia partitioned Poland in the 18th century. Maybe Poland ought to get its piece of Ukraine. I'd say it should get as big a piece as it can.

RobertDyck · 2014-03-30 18:00:09

"Dissection"? My plan (from 2002) was an international mission to send humans to Mars. Canada would build the spacecraft, to be launched on Energia. Russia would provide the launch vehicle, including upper stage. But it would start by launching the centrefuge module to ISS using Ptichka. The Russian solar array would also be launched. So that means 2 launches of Ptichka on Energia. Based on the American Shuttle launch manifest, it would take one more launch to deliver all solar panels to complete the Science Power Platform, the Russian solar array. To be blunt, this also demonstrates Energia by launching 2 or 3 times with entirely Russian crew before trusting any Canadian astronauts. This is not biased, the first Canadian astronaut flew on American Shuttle mission STS-4. So the American Shuttle flew 3 times before a Canadian flew. I'm treating Energia the same as the American Shuttle. I'm just a computer programmer, but if I could convince any politicians to do this, my idea was to have the Canadian Space Agency provide on CanadArm to the Russian shuttle, at Canadian expense. Complete with auxillary equipment and cosmonaut training. But just the arm and related stuff. That was before NASA decommissioned their Shuttle. They returned the arm from Endeavour to Canada, so now I would give Ptichka that one.

Can Ptichka still be made to fly? Can we do this? The website you gave is in Russian, but I can use www.translate.ru to translate to English. It doesn't translate images, just text. I had looked at the English language version of the website you linked, but the English site doesn't have any of the stuff you linked. That page shows ejection seats still in place for both the commander (left seat) and second pilot (right seat). If the South African company is defunct, then could we buy Ptichka for a tiny price?

martienne · 2014-03-30 18:56:55

Cool plan! I like the idea.

I read that the particular unit you asked about was 96% complete when the project was scrapped in 1993. That was over 20 years ago however! Not sure if it's beyond repairing now, or not?

And why that particular unit out of all of them (sorry I am not up to date on the Buran project).

The editor of that site I linked to said that he had received a lot of emails from people who got extremely upset when they saw the pictures on the site because deliberate damage had been done to wiring and mechanics. He quotes an email from a guy who is livid -- apparently the "thermal protection is scratched" and rants about how Russians are crazy barbarians nowadays. Yup - this would never have happened in the USSR in it's glory days, for sure.

Anyway, it didn't say who did this damage it, or why (whether it was whoever took the pictures, or what...)
And the ownership situation is really confusing. Why buy it and not do ANYTHING with it. But that was all I could find out, and it was obvious that others had tried before me.

Why don't you email the editor of that site and ask? His email was buran-at-buran.ru. (it's referred to as Buran in Russian, not ptitchka) He seems very friendly.

Here is a very long forum thread from some people who seem to know what they are talking about

Long Forum thread: "What is the status with Buran?" http://www.yaplakal.com/forum2/st/75/topic694926.html

Long Magazine article "23 year anniversity of the flight with Buran" http://www.buran.ru/other/NK-11-2011_p67-69.pdf

(too tired to read and summarize right now).

It is in Russian, but try the Yandex translator or a plugin from Firefox. Half the forum thread is just people mourning the loss of the Soviet space program and whingeing about how useless Russia is nowadays. I got annoyed after two pages, but it goes on and on and there is some good info.

What is MarsOne planning to use in 2025?

Last edited by martienne (2014-03-30 19:30:37)

RobertDyck · 2014-03-30 19:31:56

My plan for Mars uses the Energia rocket, not the shuttle. Because that is the only launch vehicle large enough that could be revived. Now that the American SLS is under development, that one could do the job. If they ever finish it. But it will be expensive.

American company SpaceX has proposed Falcon X Heavy and Falcon XX, both could also do the job, but neither have been developed. SpaceX said they would only develop them if they have a customer. So far no customer.

Russian Shuttles are launched using Energia, so launching Ptichka demonstrates Energia. It also delivers the Centrifuge module, paid by Italy and built by Japan, but NASA never launched it. The Centrifuge can demonstrate long term exposure to partial gravity, both lunar and Mars level gravity. The extra solar panels would provide power for the Centrifuge.

RobertDyck · 2014-03-30 19:38:34

MarsOne is planning to use Falcon 9 Heavy to launch a Dragon spacecraft. That means a capsule with zero gravity. To compare with current automobiles, it has the same interior volume as a cargo van. Six months in zero gravity, then land on Mars with no ability to ever leave.

Tom Kalbfus · 2014-03-31 05:51:35

The main drawback to working with the Russians can be summed up with this:
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Mir … 2F84B334AA
Putin basically wants to build a "Mirror US" a country who's short Initials was SU.

RobertDyck · 2014-03-31 09:28:50

I don't know what to do about Crimea. I don't agree with military annexation. European wars to take territory from other countries was supposed to end with World War 1. Mostly it did. World War 2 was caused by the Treaty of Versailles; some historians call World War 2 an extension of World War 1. As Martienne has pointed out, many people who live there wanted to join Russia. I certainly don't agree with how it was done. But it's not simple.

There are people in Russia who long for the days when Russia was powerful, when Russia was a country to be respected. I think respect is what that's all about, not oppression. So I've tried to take the approach of treating Russia with respect. Partially to ensure something like Crimea doesn't happen. But now it has. And it isn't simple, it is complicated. Never forget that US agents did encourage protestors. Pro-Russian media call the protestors "right wing extremists" and "terrorists". That isn't so. As I've said, the largest single ethnic group in my city are people of Ukrainian descent, their ancestors fled Stalin. They hate communist Russia as much as former Cuban people in Miami hate Castro. From what they tell me, it didn't take much to convince Ukrainian people to throw out a pro-Russian government. But never the less, America was involved, did use it's influence to promote a pro-Western government. That just asked for trouble. And Russia did respond.

Good news is Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov has repeated stated they will not invade eastern Ukraine. They will not invade anything further. This appeared on both CBC, and RT. And yesterday Lavrov met with US Vice President Biden to negotiate a solution. Let Biden do his job.

Vincent · 2014-03-31 11:40:14

For those from the 70's and understand war......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AUkeCTFXj8

Vincent · 2014-03-31 11:48:31

They call us neocons.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WANNqr-vcx0

Vincent · 2014-03-31 11:56:01

The warriors say, "wish you were here."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3j8mr-gcgoI

Vincent · 2014-03-31 12:19:25

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZ2tluarzZs

Vincent · 2014-03-31 12:26:10

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bDW-YQZVLw

Vincent · 2014-03-31 12:45:32

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjxFp6U-pns

Tom Kalbfus · 2014-03-31 12:48:47

RobertDyck wrote:

I don't know what to do about Crimea. I don't agree with military annexation. European wars to take territory from other countries was supposed to end with World War 1. Mostly it did. World War 2 was caused by the Treaty of Versailles; some historians call World War 2 an extension of World War 1. As Martienne has pointed out, many people who live there wanted to join Russia. I certainly don't agree with how it was done. But it's not simple.
There are people in Russia who long for the days when Russia was powerful, when Russia was a country to be respected. I think respect is what that's all about, not oppression. So I've tried to take the approach of treating Russia with respect. Partially to ensure something like Crimea doesn't happen. But now it has. And it isn't simple, it is complicated. Never forget that US agents did encourage protestors. Pro-Russian media call the protestors "right wing extremists" and "terrorists". That isn't so. As I've said, the largest single ethnic group in my city are people of Ukrainian descent, their ancestors fled Stalin. They hate communist Russia as much as former Cuban people in Miami hate Castro. From what they tell me, it didn't take much to convince Ukrainian people to throw out a pro-Russian government. But never the less, America was involved, did use it's influence to promote a pro-Western government. That just asked for trouble. And Russia did respond.
Good news is Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov has repeated stated they will not invade eastern Ukraine. They will not invade anything further. This appeared on both CBC, and RT. And yesterday Lavrov met with US Vice President Biden to negotiate a solution. Let Biden do his job.

You know Hitler said pretty much the same thing after he took a part of Czechoslovakia. You know history often repeats itself, and some people try really hard not to see the pattern. I think Putin studied his history and knows all about Hitler and World War II. The question is, how does he plan to avoid sticking a gun in his mouth and blowing his brains out?

Remember Japan from World War II? Japan thought it need an Empire to be powerful and respected, turns out it did not. Russia shares one trait with your country Canada, its under populated. Putin looks at a map of Russia on the wall, and despite the fact that Russia is still the largest country in the World, in his opinion, it is still not big enough and needs more territory. I'll tell you what Russia needs, it needs immigration, there are 22 Russians per square mile in Russia, this is about a third of the United States population density. Russia has all the land it needs, what it actually needs is more people. One thing it could do is follow policies that lead to a more successful economy and encourage immigrants to come from all parts of the World, it could even do what the United States did in the 19th century, it could give away free land in Siberia to encourage immigration. It could have settlers and pioneers settling the wild East and developing that territory, making Russia a Superpower, all without risking another World War, but apparently Putin doesn't see this possibility, he keeps on thinking he's Napoleon instead! Putin doesn't need to be Napoleon. Napoleon didn't start out with a country as big as Russia. Russia has no reason to want to conquer more land, at least Napoleon was somewhat justified in wanting to conquer Europe, after all most of Europe was against the French Revolution, and Napoleon wanted to over throw most of those Kings that opposed him, in this he largely succeeded. Putin is not Napoleon, Unlike Napoleon, Putin faces a Europe that is mostly democratic.

Last edited by Tom Kalbfus (2014-03-31 12:56:35)

Tom Kalbfus · 2014-03-31 13:10:23

Vincent wrote:

For those from the 70's and understand war......
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AUkeCTFXj8

To sum it up, the problem with the Vietnam War was that a mostly white American Army was trying to intervene in an Asian Civil war and protect the freedoms of one group of Asians against another group of Asians that wanted to take those freedoms away, this was much the same in the Korean War and the War in the Pacific during World War II. The main difference was that during World War II, we got Japan to surrender with the shock of the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, this spared white US soldiers from having to go into Japan and fight Japanese Asian troops house to house, as we did in Vietnam. During the Korean War, we pretty much still had a monopoly or near monopoly in atomic weapons, the war ended with a truce because the Soviets knew that if they pushed us into fighting a World War, they would have lost! Russia didn't want that nuclear war with the United States, they only just started building their first atomic bombs so a truce was agreed to. Vietnam occured after the Soviets pretty much caught up with the United States, so it was a limited civil war between two Asian sides. Since the race of the United States Army was different from those we were trying to help, the war took on a racial component and the North could capitalize on Vietnamese racism against whites, and say they are not like you, they look different, so join the Communists in liberating the country from white colonialism, and this propaganda pretty much worked. The Germans couldn't do this in Europe, so Ukraine is a European country, its people look like most of the people in the US army, so Russia can't play whites against some other race like they did in Vietnam and Korea. I'd say as a general principle, we should avoid Asian civil wars, and only fight asian countries if they attack us directly, that is they are asking to get into a war with us, and then we show them why that is not such a good idea, and make them think twice!

Vincent · 2014-03-31 13:11:53

That being said. America been wanting some Russian ass since 1963...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mRFWQoXq4c

Tom Kalbfus · 2014-03-31 13:15:36

Vincent wrote:

They call us neocons.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WANNqr-vcx0

that song is about Alice in Wonderland, not much to discuss here.

Vincent · 2014-03-31 13:28:28

Us neocons are why Russia is scratching their head. The republicans are lying in wait....

No disrespect to the Russian people....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgvfRSzmMoU

Vincent · 2014-03-31 14:04:50

Do you think for a moment America forgets Russian role in Nam. Not a chance brother...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yj1X2WpiiOE

Vincent · 2014-03-31 14:15:47

America does not forget....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGoBQIhyFFM

RobertDyck · 2014-03-31 15:01:04

Tom Kalbfus wrote:

Russia shares one trait with your country Canada, its under populated.

Well, the Soviet Union had the same population as the US before it broke up. Now Russia has half. The other half is in the other 14 "republics".

Your idea is interesting. Homesteading. But you forget how cold Siberia is. I live in Winnipeg, just 60 miles north of North Dakota. Once I looked at weather statistics. I saw a TV show of an American dating a Russian woman in Moscow, complaining about the cold. They walked with coats open, beside a river that was still liquid. That isn't cold! Here the river freezes over, several feet of ice. The sports car club has ice races on lakes and rivers. The website for the Weather Channel has average daily high and average daily low for each month of the year. The cities in Russia that most closely match Winnipeg are Omsk or Tomsk, both in Siberia. No where west of the Ural mountains gets this cold. This year is a cold year; it didn't set any record low temperatures, but the number of cold days (not nights) was greater. Ground froze to greater depth, water mains are freezing, a few homes are without water. March is always a month of melting snow, full blown winter at the beginning of the month, but most of the snow gone at the end. First weekend of April is usually the last snow storm. Then what's left melts in a week. But this is March 31, and most of the snow is still here. Right now it's -10°C, wind chill is -22. Winnipeg normally has snow from the beginning of November to end of March. It's chilly in April. Growing season is short.

So you are advocating Russia give away land for homesteading in Siberia. Omsk and Tomsk are both in southern Siberia. Omsk is roughly 100km (60 miles) north of the border with Kazakhstan. Most of Siberia is north of that, meaning colder than Winnipeg. There's a reason why both Canada and Siberia are thinly populated. Arable land in western Canada is a triangle, a small portion of southern Manitoba extending north-west to the Rocky mountains. In Alberta, it's arable pretty far north, almost to the border with Yukon. That's due to soil and rain as well as temperature. Northern boundaries of Canadian western provinces are 60° latitude. Moscow is 55° north, but warm because of the Gulf Stream. West of the Urals, temperature is as cold as Canada west of the Rockies. Don't expect northern Siberia to be arable.

Vincent · 2014-03-31 15:14:29

RobertDyck wrote:

Tom Kalbfus wrote:
Russia shares one trait with your country Canada, its under populated.
Well, the Soviet Union had the same population as the US before it broke up. Now Russia has half. The other half is in the other 14 "republics".
Your idea is interesting. Homesteading. But you forget how cold Siberia is. I live in Winnipeg, just 60 miles north of North Dakota. Once I looked at weather statistics. I saw a TV show of an American dating a Russian woman in Moscow, complaining about the cold. They walked with coats open, beside a river that was still liquid. That isn't cold! Here the river freezes over, several feet of ice. The sports car club has ice races on lakes and rivers. The website for the Weather Channel has average daily high and average daily low for each month of the year. The cities in Russia that most closely match Winnipeg are Omsk or Tomsk, both in Siberia. No where west of the Ural mountains gets this cold. This year is a cold year; it didn't set any record low temperatures, but the number of cold days (not nights) was greater. Ground froze to greater depth, water mains are freezing, a few homes are without water. March is always a month of melting snow, full blown winter at the beginning of the month, but most of the snow gone at the end. First weekend of April is usually the last snow storm. Then what's left melts in a week. But this is March 31, and most of the snow is still here. Right now it's -10°C, wind chill is -22. Winnipeg normally has snow from the beginning of November to end of March. It's chilly in April. Growing season is short.
So you are advocating Russia give away land for homesteading in Siberia. Omsk and Tomsk are both in southern Siberia. Omsk is roughly 100km (60 miles) north of the border with Kazakhstan. Most of Siberia is north of that, meaning colder than Winnipeg. There's a reason why both Canada and Siberia are thinly populated. Arable land in western Canada is a triangle, a small portion of southern Manitoba extending north-west to the Rocky mountains. In Alberta, it's arable pretty far north, almost to the border with Yukon. That's due to soil and rain as well as temperature. Northern boundaries of Canadian western provinces are 60° latitude. Moscow is 55° north, but warm because of the Gulf Stream. West of the Urals, temperature is as cold as Canada west of the Rockies. Don't expect northern Siberia to be arable.

Why does America care?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4s0nzsU1Wg

RobertDyck · 2014-03-31 15:28:38

Vincent wrote:

Why does America care?

Are you trying to start World War 3? You're messing in their back yard.

Vincent · 2014-03-31 15:34:19

RobertDyck wrote:

Vincent wrote:
Why does America care?
Are you trying to start World War 3? You're messing in their back yard.

They had it coming.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ojRQ15My7s

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#101 2014-03-30 16:17:52

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

#102 2014-03-30 17:35:19

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

#103 2014-03-30 18:00:09

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

#104 2014-03-30 18:56:55

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

#105 2014-03-30 19:31:56

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

#106 2014-03-30 19:38:34

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

#107 2014-03-31 05:51:35

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

#108 2014-03-31 09:28:50

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

#109 2014-03-31 11:40:14

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

#110 2014-03-31 11:48:31

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

#111 2014-03-31 11:56:01

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

#112 2014-03-31 12:19:25

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

#113 2014-03-31 12:26:10

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

#114 2014-03-31 12:45:32

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

#115 2014-03-31 12:48:47

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

#116 2014-03-31 13:10:23

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

#117 2014-03-31 13:11:53

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

#118 2014-03-31 13:15:36

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

#119 2014-03-31 13:28:28

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

#120 2014-03-31 14:04:50

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

#121 2014-03-31 14:15:47

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

#122 2014-03-31 15:01:04

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

#123 2014-03-31 15:14:29

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

#124 2014-03-31 15:28:38

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

#125 2014-03-31 15:34:19

Re: Ukraine & Crimea

Board footer