McMurdo as a prototype Mars Colony

Tom Kalbfus · 2013-11-14 17:31:50

What do you think? McMurdo Base in Antarctica has over 1000 people in it during the Summer, if there was an analog for a colony on Mars that would be it. What do you think needs to happen to turn it to an actual colony?

RobertDyck · 2013-11-14 18:14:36

Industry

JoshNH4H · 2013-11-15 01:01:06

Food and energy production would be nice.

Also McMurdo is primarily a scientific base and has no permanent population. That's rather important for a colony.

Tom Kalbfus · 2014-01-07 12:49:29

It could have an industry, it could be home for some fishing fleets since it has a harbor, It could also be a tourist destination if some hotels were built, and a good way to get it started would be for McMurdo to host the Winter Olympics, during the Antarctic summer of course. Could you just imagine it an Olympic stadium at McMurdo, some ski slopes on the surrounding mountains, ice skating rinks, hockey games, speed skating, cross country skying, bobsleds of course it would all be seasonal, but in this case the activities would occur in the summer.

I don't know if this is real
http://www.antarcticaedu.com/olympicsantarctica.htm
I never knew there was an Antarctic University.

What is Antarctica? Some atlases and talking heads call it a a continent, some call it an ice-bound wasteland, and some, like the people who live here, call it home. On 4 October 1957, the world changed overnight when Sputnik I, the first satellite, was launched by the Soviet Union. In November, the Soviets launched another, Sputnik II, carrying a dog (Laika), into the cosmos. A month later 1958 began, and this was to be a year of science, the so-called International Geophysical Year, dedicated to the study of the Earth and its motion through the heavens. As the Space Age and Geophysical Year focused the world's eyes on the globe as a whole, the US and USSR renewed their interest in our continent here at the bottom of that globe. The US realized the potentially dangerous uses Antarctica could be put to in the service of communism (for example, its use as a staging base and bunker, or for nuclear tests).
For these reasons, in 1959, talks were opened on the status of Antarctica. A year and a half later, on 23 June 1961, Antarctica was declared independent. The resulting Antarctic Treaty System (ATS), established the continent as an unclaimable scientific preserve- a place where aggressive military forces are forbidden, or at the least, 'persona non grata.' A place where freedom and free investigation were the most important values. The Antarctic Treaty is our founding document, equivalent to the US Declaration of Independence, which defines our territory as, "All land and ice-shelves south of the 60 degree south lattitude line." While not all nations signed the treaty, none have made a claim of ownership on our large, empty land.
Many of the structures at what are now our outreach sites were built for the International Geophysical Year. Examples of these, among others, are the old Amundsen-Scott, Halley and Arctowski Halls. These structures were built by different nations, and remain jointly operated by them today. The main UANT campus was established while politicians in Washington and Moscow were discussing the Antarctic independence and neutrality provisions in 1961. At that time, Austrian scientist Heinz Janetschek (Yan-ets-chek) and Italian scientist Fiorenzo Ugolini consecrated University Peak and University Valley, a short way inland from coastal McMurdo, Victoria Land, where they were stationed. Thus were the University's grounds laid out. Our official founding occured on Antarctic Independence Day (23 June 1961), when it became Antarctica's first (and still its only) university.
The population of Antarctica has always been small- even today it is comprised mostly of scientists and students, numbering around 5,000. While the University is consequently also small in size, its status and reputation in the world far outweighs its relative proportion of the population. The students and specialists who have walked these halls have been the best in their fields, adding to the prestige of the University throughout the decades.
Today, with the addition of web-based educational outreach, the university is growing every year by leaps and bounds, and many students are now completing full certificats of recognitions online, without having to make the expensive move to Antarctica.
Welcome to UANT!

Last edited by Tom Kalbfus (2014-01-07 13:02:50)

SpaceNut · 2014-01-07 13:57:49

Did a bit of research to get on topic for discusion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMurdo_Station

http://www.coolantarctica.com/Community … rctica.htm

The National Science Foundation (NSF) is an independent federal agency created by Congress in 1950 "to promote the progress of science; to advance the national health, prosperity, and welfare; to secure the national defense…"

Much like Nasa controlled at the wim of congress and the president.

Tom Kalbfus · 2014-01-07 14:28:31

There are definitely possibilities here.
http://www.atlasobscura.com/places/mcmurdo-station
The landscape looks rugged enough for skiing, We would just have to add infrastructure to handle the athletes and tourists, after that the place could be turned into a self sustaining resort, hire some employees and you got your colony. How does that sound?

SpaceNut · 2014-01-07 17:25:40

The olympics would need to be staged for travel safety probably in the off season as winter means trouble for ice breaking as we are hearing already elsewhere. Outfit the mountain with snow guns and have a blast.

I see tourist artractions once they are enclosed from the huts and other historical buildings on the island.

So what science can now be done on such a small island?

Did some more digging only to find you guessed it a treaty and where there is one I am sure that there are others that will make it hands off for developement.

U.S. Antarctic Treaty Information Exchange

Last edited by SpaceNut (2014-01-07 18:02:57)

Tom Kalbfus · 2014-01-07 20:24:32

It isn't mining, its tourism. the best way to think of it is that Antarctica is one giant International park. I've been to other parks with ski resorts in them, such as the Adirondacks, I don't see the continent of Antarctica as any different, and I figure what good is a park if there are no tourists, I think some provisions ought to be made for them, why should scientists have the whole continent all to themselves? Who pays their salaries anyway? Taxpayers in the case of government scientists, so don't you think tourists ought to get something for the money they pay in taxes? if they want to visit the continent and see some penguins and go skiing, I don't think its too much to ask to establish a hotel resort there. And I think a proper airport is in order so tourists don't have to come in on boats and risk getting stuck in ice. The best way to facilitate a resort is to allow some sort of economy to flourish, let people make money on tourism so the proper services and facilities can be provided. The idea that the government should do everything is so Soviet and outdated anyway, that was part of the 20th century and the Cold War, and we won the Cold War right?

The Adirondacks State Park in New York has all sorts of businesses and private property in it, I don't see why we can't allow the same thing for Antarctica, this is what we must have if there is going to be a colony, not just a base full of government scientists, we need children, schools and families, not lonely scientists counting the days on the calendar till they can see their families once more. The reason Antarctica is such a hardship is in part due to the separation from one's families. We should be making it less like military service, after all Antarctica is not a combat zone, there is in principle no reason why we can't have a flourishing community there rather than just scientists doing a tour of duty. If Eskimos can live in the Arctic, why can't people also not learn to live in the Antarctic, at least around the coast there is food, one can eat fish, penguins and seal, Eskimos do at least the fish and seals. I think Antarctica is a test case, if we're talking about living on Mars, then learning to live in Antarctica should be a snap, and if we can't do that, then we have no business talking about living on Mars.

As you can see, I'm a bit of a utilitarian, I think Antarctica is there for all of us, not just the elite scientists, and not just for science, my feelings about Mars and Venus go along similar lines. Nature does not exist only for its own sake, but so that living intelligent beings can appreciate it and go there and visit it, not just read about it in books, as many government scientists would seem to prefer. Nature had the World all to it self for 5 billion years, and then it created us, now its our turn.

SpaceNut · 2014-01-07 20:38:44

I am wondering about how many other treaties have been written for Antartica as well. When compared to the outer space treaties this one should be a first step to opening up the teritory so that people can go as planned for tourism but then comes the tricky part whom gets to claim the finaicial gains? Who incurrs the cost to setup the amusment park?

Tom Kalbfus · 2014-01-08 07:16:37

Who gets the profits of cruise ships when they travel through international waters?

JoshNH4H · 2014-01-09 18:10:31

From http://www.olympic.org/content/the-ioc/ … d-process/

The International Olympic Committee wrote:

One of the most important decisions taken by the International Olympic Committee (IOC) is the election of the host city for the Olympic Games. The Games are awarded to one city, although some venues may be located outside the host city itself. The host city election takes place seven years before the Games, but the actual bid process is launched nine years before and lasts for a period of two years. The National Olympic Committee (NOC) of the country concerned puts forward the name of a city to the IOC, with each NOC entitled to put forward only one city located within its territory. The actual work on putting together an Olympic bid often begins many years before this, with city, regional and national authorities working hard with the NOC to prepare its Olympic project. In some cases the NOC even carries out its own selection process from a number of interested cities within its own country.

Emphasis mine.

The most important words within this clause are "Within its territory". McMurdo is not US territory; If it is within anyone's territory, it's New Zealand, which has a nominal claim to the area with no real-world meaning whatsoever.

The USOC could sponsor a McMurdo olympic bid anyway; It would indubitably be turned down for any number of reasons, starting with the fact that, very much unlike literally any other city ever chosen to host any olympic games, winter or summer, it's not really a city. It's an international, government supported research facility. Bidding closes for the 2022 Winter Olympics next year; But let's say we're going for the 2026 Olympics. That means that, in order to support the feasibility of a prospective bid, we would have to begin massive development of the area (In contravention of the 1991 Protocol on Environmental Protection to the Antarctic Treaty, which is in force until 2048) to show that it will indeed be possible for such a small place to host an event so big as the Olympics.

The IOC is a very conservative body. In part of its bid for the 2008 Summer Olympics, China actually promised that it could stop it from raining on Beijing. I highly doubt they would go for a city that hadn't already arrived, so to speak. The population of 340,000. While not very large as far as cities go, it's two orders of magnitude and then some larger than McMurdo. If you were on the IOC, would you even believe that a proposal for the city at which the olympics was hosted, coming from a place that is not a city that is clearly ineligible based on the rules of the controversy-adverse IOC as well as international law, containing not-even-one-thousand permanent residents and precisely zero infrastructure for any kind of spectator sport whatsoever?

I know I wouldn't.

Then there's also that thing where, ya know, the Olympics costs money for pretty much every city that has ever hosted it.

SpaceNut · 2014-01-09 23:05:33

Plus any city created is geared towards a small specialized market one which vanishes once the olympic spirit is gone. Sure you have what is built but it is in now way what is needed for a tourist attraction. Some of it is but for the most part it is not and much more building would be needed to turn it into the amusement park that is desired.

JoshNH4H · 2014-01-09 23:20:43

It would be more beneficial to take advantage of the cold environment to produce something that the rest of the would would find useful. What exactly that would be I'm not sure.

Tom Kalbfus · 2014-01-10 10:39:50

Well look what happened to the cruise ship that got stuck in ice. Isn't there a better way to visit Antarctica, like maybe an airplane for instance. Build an airport and tourists can arrive much more safely that having ships getting stuck in the ice.

(In contravention of the 1991 Protocol on Environmental Protection to the Antarctic Treaty, which is in force until 2048)

A socialist anti-development document if there ever was one. Seems to me Mars would be much harder to develop than Antarctica. I think it would be good practice to build a colony in Antarctica first before going to Mars, we could start now, we have all the technology required, all the remains is the bureaucratic, legal and financial hurdles.

SpaceNut · 2014-01-10 22:21:38

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ol … ost_cities

does anyone have any first hand experiencs of a past olympic village and what is still active in them?

MichaelGoota · 2017-09-23 23:08:30

notice: this thread will be used as a discussion thread for Mars Space Colony RP. in this thread we will talk about ideas, suggestions and after round chats.

this will also be used as a signup thread as well.

SpaceNut · 2017-09-24 19:52:39

not really asign up topic but welcome to newmars.

analog stations to test in environment and under simular stress levels are important no matter where we set up the testing for mans endurance to survive so long as the data is collected and can be applied to near the risk that man may face being much more isolated on the first mission to mars.

SpaceNut · 2019-12-28 18:09:18

Man power wins as 6 Rowers Become First to Cross Infamous Drake Passage Unassisted
13days rowing 24hrs a day to achieve the crossing.

The Drake Passage or Mar de Hoces—Sea of Hoces—is the body of water between South America's Cape Horn, Chile and the South Shetland Islands of Antarctica. It connects the southwestern part of the Atlantic Ocean with the southeastern part of the Pacific Ocean and extends into the Southern Ocean.

tahanson43206 · 2019-12-28 19:57:08

For SpaceNut re #18

Thanks for the link to the Drake Passage achievement! I am reminded of the seamanship of Sir Ernest Shackleton, who sailed a longboat through a section of those waters to reach a whaling station, and thus to rescue his crew after the ice crushing of the Endurance.

Endurance (1912 ship) - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Endurance_(1912_ship)
Endurance was the three-masted barquentine in which Sir Ernest Shackleton sailed for the Antarctic on the 1914 Imperial Trans-Antarctic Expedition. She was ...

The ambition of the crew of the craft which made the first human powered crossing is on the same order. Advances in technology since 1912 surely helped, but the courage and persistence of the rowing crew are comparable.

A nice benefit of the link you provided is a suite of YouTube videos of the Drake Passage, taken by personnel aboard vessels making the trip.

It is those waters I am discussing for the Ring-of-Wind concept, and those YouTube videos show what Nature has in store for the venture, although I suspect that the weather shown is on the more decent side. Ship owners might time voyages to avoid the worst conditions.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2019-12-29 12:26:57

For SpaceNut as a follow up to #18

https://apnews.com/733e3eda7d1f318cc8beabd961c424d3

The story above includes mention that the Discovery Channel was escorting the boat across the Passage, so we Discovery Channel devotees can look forward to seeing the saga memorialized in video.

The article includes mention of the pain endured by the six rowers over 13 days, as well as brief summaries of their backgrounds.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2019-12-29 12:27:26)

louis · 2019-12-30 05:18:32

McMurdo is probably our best reference point for a starter colony on Mars, I feel:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMurdo_S … tation.jpg

Substitute the Spaceport for the runway.

SpaceNut · 2019-12-30 11:47:12

Sure its a station but they are not trying to be sustainable for themselves as everything is basically brought in. Sure there is some but in no way is it enough to be a proof of concept for mars.

louis · 2019-12-30 12:31:22

No absolutely...but I still think it is our best reference point for the sort of small town that will develop on Mars as the first settlement.

Clearly on Mars you won't be able to walk from building to building as in Antarctica. It will probably be more a case of either using connecting pressurised walkways or getting in a pressurised rover and moving from one air lock to another.

Yes, there will be more industry on Mars and more food being grown.

McMurdo is now beginning to use 3D printers, so there's another point of connection.

https://www.facebook.com/uslter/posts/f … 556800615/

The base is also the starting point for exploration and science missions.

SpaceNut wrote:

Sure its a station but they are not trying to be sustainable for themselves as everything is basically brought in. Sure there is some but in no way is it enough to be a proof of concept for mars.

Last edited by louis (2019-12-30 12:32:06)

louis · 2019-12-31 19:30:47

Live views of McMurdo...

https://www.usap.gov/videoclipsandmaps/mcmwebcam.cfm

Will be nice when we have live views from Mars, albeit with a 10 min delay.

Last edited by louis (2019-12-31 19:31:57)

SpaceNut · 2020-06-22 16:31:37

I Was Isolated for a Year in Antarctica—Here’s What Surprised Me Most When I Came Back after being a station leader for an expedition to Davis Station, Antarctica...around the clock for a full year—through months of darkness and with no escape from the frigid cold, howling winds..

Viruses do not live in Antarctica. When I was in the harsh and bitter cold, I was perfectly healthy. When I returned back home, I picked up every virus in Australia. I was totally unprepared for the way my immune system reacted

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#1 2013-11-14 17:31:50

McMurdo as a prototype Mars Colony

#2 2013-11-14 18:14:36

Re: McMurdo as a prototype Mars Colony

#3 2013-11-15 01:01:06

Re: McMurdo as a prototype Mars Colony

#4 2014-01-07 12:49:29

Re: McMurdo as a prototype Mars Colony

#5 2014-01-07 13:57:49

Re: McMurdo as a prototype Mars Colony

#6 2014-01-07 14:28:31

Re: McMurdo as a prototype Mars Colony

#7 2014-01-07 17:25:40

Re: McMurdo as a prototype Mars Colony

#8 2014-01-07 20:24:32

Re: McMurdo as a prototype Mars Colony

#9 2014-01-07 20:38:44

Re: McMurdo as a prototype Mars Colony

#10 2014-01-08 07:16:37

Re: McMurdo as a prototype Mars Colony

#11 2014-01-09 18:10:31

Re: McMurdo as a prototype Mars Colony

#12 2014-01-09 23:05:33

Re: McMurdo as a prototype Mars Colony

#13 2014-01-09 23:20:43

Re: McMurdo as a prototype Mars Colony

#14 2014-01-10 10:39:50

Re: McMurdo as a prototype Mars Colony

#15 2014-01-10 22:21:38

Re: McMurdo as a prototype Mars Colony

#16 2017-09-23 23:08:30

Re: McMurdo as a prototype Mars Colony

#17 2017-09-24 19:52:39

Re: McMurdo as a prototype Mars Colony

#18 2019-12-28 18:09:18

Re: McMurdo as a prototype Mars Colony

#19 2019-12-28 19:57:08

Re: McMurdo as a prototype Mars Colony

#20 2019-12-29 12:26:57

Re: McMurdo as a prototype Mars Colony

#21 2019-12-30 05:18:32

Re: McMurdo as a prototype Mars Colony

#22 2019-12-30 11:47:12

Re: McMurdo as a prototype Mars Colony

#23 2019-12-30 12:31:22

Re: McMurdo as a prototype Mars Colony

#24 2019-12-31 19:30:47

Re: McMurdo as a prototype Mars Colony

#25 2020-06-22 16:31:37

Re: McMurdo as a prototype Mars Colony

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